Heard thud, B7 2.0T engine cut off , oil puddle, towed to dealer last night

[Prodeje79]

Just hit 92K. HPFP and cam followers replaced at dealer at 46K on 12/2011. I had p2293 fuel pump code yesterday and fuel cut issues at WOT. The check engine light went off, but was going to take into dealer today anyway.

I was planning to replace my timing belt next month with tax money, slightly ahead of the 110k scheduled maintenance interval recommended by Audi ( http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2006.pdf )

I am not sure if something hit the oil pain to cause the huge puddle, or if a rod/piston/etc shot through.

I hope either was physical damage covered under my comprehensive, or perhaps some sort of good will / discretionary warranty from Audi comes through. The car was CPO, but that is long expired. I did have them check it one last time before CPO ended (2/15/2012) and they pulled some fuel pressure codes of sorts. I forget the exact codes. It said "Sporadic low pressure fuel faults stored, car has updated sensor". They didn't replace anything. They charged me $50 for this last check.
On 9/2012, they noted in the service notes that the sound pan was damaged. They replaced PCV value and turbo inlet pipe.
I use euro spec synthetic oil and have it changed at proper intervals.
Coils and spark plugs replaced a month ago.

I swear I received a letter about cam shaft and related components(fuel system and cam followers) warranty extended 10 years and 120k miles, but so far I have not found it.......

It is a 2006 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T 6MT, running stock everything.

What are you thinking happened?
What do you think in regards to warranty work, although officially CPO is over two years ago?

Should I start looking at used engines ? I browsed car-part so far......
Do I need to get 2.0T that was on AWD and manual transmission? or does that not matter?
Perhaps no new engine, but maybe head will need rebuilt......
:(

[=(]

[xander3zero]

from 46k miles to 92k miles is plenty of time for your cam follower to fail again. if your completely stock and the extended warranty applies to you, that should cover it and a whole lot of other repairs that will probably be needed.

the stuff about the low pressure pump (which sits in the gas tank and supplies fuel to the high pressure pump on the engine) could be a failing LPFP.

and what are you saying about a huge puddle?

[Prodeje79]

from 46k miles to 92k miles is plenty of time for your cam follower to fail again. if your completely stock and the extended warranty applies to you, that should cover it and a whole lot of other repairs that will probably be needed.

the stuff about the low pressure pump (which sits in the gas tank and supplies fuel to the high pressure pump on the engine) could be a failing LPFP.

and what are you saying about a huge puddle?


Yeah I was thinking that too since it needed replaced at 46K,. Basically double that 46K and I am there EXACTLY 92K! WOW!

I am pretty sure I saw an oil trail on the road this morning when driving by the spot it happened. It leads all the way to where I sat for over an hour. Here is the puddle after sitting awhile and car was put on flat bed:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Prodeje79/2006%20Audi%20A4%2020T%20quattro%206MT/IMG_20140114_221528.jpg~original (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Prodeje79/media/2006%20Audi%20A4%2020T%20quattro%206MT/IMG_20140114_221528.jpg.html)

[toaster]

I was planning to replace my timing belt next month with tax money, slightly ahead of the 110k scheduled maintenance interval recommended by Audi ( http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2006.pdf )


Audi lost a class action lawsuit for timing belt failure on the B6s, which had a service interval of 75k. For some reason, Audi had the aud(i)acity to bump the interval for the B7s up to 110k...seemingly, without changing ANYTHING mechanically. The TB on my B7 failed at 67k, causing massive engine damage and forcing me to pull off to the right-side shoulder, across 3 lanes of highway traffic, with an essentially unresponsive car. Luckily, my girlfriend and I were not hurt.

Needless to say, I called AOA, told them that I knew about the lawsuit they'd lost, and they quickly agreed to pay every single penny of my repair for my out of warranty vehicle.

DO NOT SERVICE YOUR CAR SOLELY BASED ON AUDI'S SERVICE INTERVALS.

[Prodeje79]

OK, for the heck of it, I am submitting this to the lawfirm that did the 1.8T Class Action......
I am probably not the first?
http://www.pswlaw.com/Notable-Cases/Audi-and-Volkswagen-Timing-Belt-Class-Action.aspx

Here goes.......

I am familiar with the AUDI AND VOLKSWAGEN TIMING BELT CLASS ACTION regarding the 1.8T engine. I believe there is plenty of data to support there are similar issues with the 2.0T FSI engine. There are tons of stories and threads on various forums such as Audizine.com audiforums.com audiworld.com and many more. They later created a second generation 2.0T TSI engine in 2008 that appears to have fixed the timing belt and cam follower issues. The newer TSI engines have moved to a “timing chain”, which VW / Audi have stated as a non-serviceable item and should last the life time of the vehicle.

On Audi's site it advises to replace the timing belt at 115k, see at the bottom of this. http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2006.pdf
There is a lot of info out there, here is one quote "At Redline Speed Worx we are starting to increasingly see vehicles with 80,000 to 100,000 miles on said timing chains, and we have noticed that the timing chain tensioner has been experiencing premature failure. When the tensioner does fail in a running vehicle the valve-train & rotating assembly spin freely of each other and due to the 2.0T being an interference engine this does cause catastrophic failure of the complete engine, or at a minimum destruction of the vehicle’s cylinder head assembly."
from: http://www.redlinespeedworx.com/2-0t-tsi-timing-chain-failure/

[quattro16]

For some reason the 2006's are breaking chain's left and right. We have put new heads on them under warr and within 100 miles the chain is broken again. We think its some lubrication problem in the bottom end or internal of the block or head... I currently own two 2006 A4's with blown chain's waiting for the 2007-2008 BWT engine code to be installed when I get around to it. Never seen the BWT's have this problem...

[Charles.waite]

Audi lost a class action lawsuit for timing belt failure on the B6s, which had a service interval of 75k. For some reason, Audi had the aud(i)acity to bump the interval for the B7s up to 110k...seemingly, without changing ANYTHING mechanically.

They did change a few things. part revisions and whatnot, even though they are interchangeable, they are revised. Also the 2.0t has an elliptical Crank pulley which is shaped to relieve a slight amount of tension on the belt coinciding with times in the crank rotation where it puts more tension on the belt. Basically it evens out the tension pulses on the belt allowing it to wear less.

Also they changed the belt tensioning system to a concentric spring loaded roller rather than a hydraulic tensioner as the hydraulic ones tend to degrade earlier.

Not saying the 110k interval is justified, because its not, just saying they didn't just not do anything and raise the interval for shits and giggles.

And you can't say all the timing stuff is bullshit because your car's components failed at 60k. Your case is an outlier. Yea it sucks, but its still a statistical outlier. As was my 2008's cam anf HPFP getting trashed at <55k. Shit happens sometimes when the previous owner of your car is a fucking retard who doesn't know how to properly maintain a car. /stillbitter

Also, I love how everyone is jumping to the conclusion that the timing belt snapped. The timing belt breaking would not cause any loss in engine oil. Throwing a rod through the block would result in a VERY LARGE loss of oil. The timing chain punching through the timing housing could very well cause both a dead audi and a small loss of oil as the residual oil in the housing would drip out.

So you two up there who are moaning about class action suits, can it until you know somethign concrete about the OP's situation. K thx.

[4rings5stars]

I think that even with the 05-06 2.0s, the incidence of major problems aren't as high as people might think.

[aluthman]

For some reason the 2006's are breaking chain's left and right. We have put new heads on them under warr and within 100 miles the chain is broken again. We think its some lubrication problem in the bottom end or internal of the block or head... I currently own two 2006 A4's with blown chain's waiting for the 2007-2008 BWT engine code to be installed when I get around to it. Never seen the BWT's have this problem...

Interesting. I wonder if this is the case. I'm really glad I decided to replace both the tensioner and chain while my head was apart.

[Prodeje79]

It would be interesting to see how many 2005.5-2006 A4 2.0T engines have made it to at least 115k without replacing Cam followers, HPFP, timing belt/chain, tensioner, or anything related. Unless it is officially listed on that 2006 maintenance guide...... http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2006.pdf

[midnight407]

90k+ here with everything original (cf, hpfp, cam, TB, etc) except for an alternator (got one from a junkyard for $25). i drive it like it's a ticking time bomb since i hit 90k. going in for a ton of maintenance (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/575994-Indy-Shop-90k-mile-service) in the next couple weeks, though.

[Prodeje79]

Got call from dealer, "timing chain is laying down". For sure new cylinder head as everything is damaged inside most likely. I had to authorize $350 to tear down and see if related to HPFP and related parts stressing it to break. Well, I think that's what he said.....

The tech thinks it is indeed this and will be covered, but obviously no guarantee until he tears it down.
He also thinks new engine needed at this point.
So if covered, I am out nothing and get a new engine. Else I am out $350 plus whatever needed to repair/replace.
*crosses fingers*

[flyingfish2626]

That must have been a scary phone call. Hope it works out for you.

[Ornithology]

For some reason the 2006's are breaking chain's left and right. We have put new heads on them under warr and within 100 miles the chain is broken again. We think its some lubrication problem in the bottom end or internal of the block or head... I currently own two 2006 A4's with blown chain's waiting for the 2007-2008 BWT engine code to be installed when I get around to it. Never seen the BWT's have this problem...

So you're saying that an a4 with the BPG originally can have a direct swap with later model BWT's? Is it direct swap?

[vortexjunkie]

Interesting*

[Charles.waite]

Got call from dealer, "timing chain is laying down". For sure new cylinder head as everything is damaged inside most likely. I had to authorize $350 to tear down and see if related to HPFP and related parts stressing it to break. Well, I think that's what he said.....

The tech thinks it is indeed this and will be covered, but obviously no guarantee until he tears it down.
He also thinks new engine needed at this point.
So if covered, I am out nothing and get a new engine. Else I am out $350 plus whatever needed to repair/replace.
*crosses fingers*

You likely wont need a new engine. Just a new head. If the pistons are badly scored from the valves though, a new engine might make sense...

[Charles.waite]

So you're saying that an a4 with the BPG originally can have a direct swap with later model BWT's? Is it direct swap?

Its the same engine. only difference is the piston shape and the routing pathways in the valve cover for the PCV.

[Prodeje79]

Just got the call from the dealer. It will be covered under warranty. They are awaiting decision for new engine vs rebuild.
WHEW

[Charles.waite]

Just got the call from the dealer. It will be covered under warranty. They are awaiting decision for new engine vs rebuild.
WHEW

Sweet! Thats great news. I would push for a new engine. Who knows where metal particles made their way into.

[Prodeje79]

New engine, will be shipping from Germany. Sounds like this may be awhile.
No loaners cars yet, said they booked on those weeks in advanced!
Still happy but I need a car to get around!!!

[aluthman]

New engine on their dime is about as good as it gets. It would be better if they had a loaner to give you though. Just tell them you're fine with a new car off the lot as a loaner.

[Charles.waite]

Haha.

You might be able to talk to your insurance and get them to cover part of or all of a rental car. Some insurances will pay for that when your car is in the shop. Worth a shot at the very least assuming you don't take a hit to your premium.

If you have the money, you could always buy a beater an sell it, haha.

[quattro16]

Good to hear!! Make sure the turbo is new also!

[80sGuy]

Good for you bro! It usually takes about two weeks for the dealer to receive, then a day, or maybe two and you're set!
New engine, will be shipping from Germany. Sounds like this may be awhile.
No loaners cars yet, said they booked on those weeks in advanced!
Still happy but I need a car to get around!!!

[B72011]

I'd pull that new engine and replace with a used one from Carpart.com.....make 3-4K on the deal. Thats if you can pull an engine on your own.

[80sGuy]

^^Now why in the world you wanna do that? You gotta really hate your car for doing this.

[4rings5stars]

In this economy, all is fair game

[Prodeje79]

The engine swap is under way!
It sounds like it may only be the long block and they are swapping all my old components. :(

Should I snag a new(er) turbo on my own to have them throw on instead of my 92k miles one?

Anything else that should be replaced at 92k while they are at it?

[Charles.waite]

I see no need to mess with the turbo. Just ask them to make sure the exhaust turbine wheel isn't damaged, which I'm sure they've already done. If it is damaged they should replace it. If not I'd just leave it.

Engine mounts would be a cinch while the engine is out. won't take them any extra time in labor, thought mounts from the dealer will probably run you $400...

[80sGuy]

Uh your timing belt (and water pump) before you have another incident.
The engine swap is under way!
It sounds like it may only be the long block and they are swapping all my old components. :(

Should I snag a new(er) turbo on my own to have them throw on instead of my 92k miles one?

Anything else that should be replaced at 92k while they are at it?

[Prodeje79]

Uh your timing belt (and water pump) before you have another incident.
The timing belt snapped, so hopefully they got a new one of those!

[4rings5stars]

The timing belt snapped, so hopefully they got a new one of those!

And the rollers, tensioners, waterpump, etc. You know, the actual things that cause most tb issues

[Charles.waite]

And the rollers, tensioners, waterpump, etc. You know, the actual things that cause most tb issues

This. The belts are fine. It's the failure of the parts that run off the belt that cause the failures.

[Prodeje79]

I got my car yesterday. Notes on the work order indicated issues/hesitation with my 92k mile turbo upon first test drive "at first, but now seems fine".
Right off the lot I heard a weird whistle that almost sounds like metal grinding whenever giving it gas.

Upon my first freeway drive, it seems to lose total power randomly. Just to test, I did a run from 60-80ish in 6th. It seems right around 80mph it hits this wall of sorts that almost takes your breath away like it totally lost power. Check engine light came on.

I had no issues with my turbo before. Is it possible when the timing chain broke that some of the bad oil with metal shards damaged the turbo, or perhaps something else? Maybe there is just a boost leak. I will find out when I take it in today.

My car smells like burning oil pretty strongly. They said that would be normal while it burns off. This makes we wonder what is coated with oil and is it good for the parts its covering? Is it on my AC compressor/condenser, alternator. starter . or anything of concern that may shorten said parts life? I will find out. I am sure they would have made sure it was nothing that could be damaged.

[80sGuy]

You'll need to take it back and explicitly explain this to them. Not all Audi techs are competent, as a matter of fact most aren't.

[Charles.waite]

^that.

Burning oil smell from new parts is somewhat normal, the machine oils they coat them with from the factory so the parts don't begin to rust in transit are the normal cause of this. However the power loss thing is significant. I would ask them to come on a test drive and demostrate it to them (I wouldn't trust a tech or a Service adviser driving me car hard like that).

[funky_snowman]

Sounds like a bad repair. Read the code and take it back to them.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Prodeje79]

Low pressure fuel pump . not sure of issue yet and they can't see it until Monday. I had to with $125 diag. I have a 2013 q7 loaner for now.

[Prodeje79]

I have not heard anything yet, but I am content driving this Q7 in the meantime.

I hope I get good news though, I've already dropped $1000 (timing belt kit, motor mounts, and axle boot replaced) at this point. I am VERY thankful to get a new long block/HPFP. My car was working fine besides the timing chain breaking. I didn't even get off the lot with these "new" issues and had to immediately authorize a new diag fee $125.

My turbo didn't make that funny noise or have any issues before this, nor did I have any low pressure fuel issues.
What would you do if come back saying this isn't covered?

[Operator]

If their repair caused this, they'll refund your diag fee, no?

[4rings5stars]

If their repair caused this, they'll refund your diag fee, no?

Gotta love the dealers.

Kinda like telcom companies with all the random, hidden fees and such

[Prodeje79]

If their repair caused this, they'll refund your diag fee, no?

yes, but i shouldn't have to do ANOTHER fee since it didn't make it off the lot......

[IllusionalTA]

yes, but i shouldn't have to do ANOTHER fee since it didn't make it off the lot......

Man reading stories like this makes me cringe.. I've got almost 170k on my car.. Never anything major.. Only thing I do diff is run a zinc additive that edelbrock makes.. I'm only on my 2nd follower.. Had hpfp replaced at 64k due to shitty kmd install from previous owner.. Hope it all works out for you, I'd fight them for that diag.. That should be a brand new fn car when you get it back.. Not like your saying your trunk don't open..

[Prodeje79]

OK they called and said my car is ready and working fine.

They said they needed to grab my old HPFP sensor off my old engine as the new sensor was not compatible with my ECM. They said they had just done another one just like me and had this same issue too.

[Charles.waite]

OK they called and said my car is ready and working fine.

They said they needed to grab my old HPFP sensor off my old engine as the new sensor was not compatible with my ECM. They said they had just done another one just like me and had this same issue too.

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. There isn't a new ECM.

Unless you had a bpy engine that they replaced with a bwt. But even then, all the HPFP part numbers are the same so that's just asinine.

I feel like dealers just make shit up constantly just to make the consumer feel justified that their work is actually up to par...

[Prodeje79]

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. There isn't a new ECM.

Unless you had a bpy engine that they replaced with a bwt. But even then, all the HPFP part numbers are the same so that's just asinine.

I feel like dealers just make shit up constantly just to make the consumer feel justified that their work is actually up to par...

They said something along the lines of my original engine was 2006, and this was a new revised engine. How can I tell which?

Here are the notes of my issue:
CAUSE: AS PER TSB 2013147/13
INSPECT FOUND REAR CHAIN COVER BLOWN OUT AND CHAIN HANGING OUT OF ENGINE. REMOVE HIGH SIDE FUEL PUMP AND FOUND CAM FOLLOWER WORN COMPLETELY THRU AND PUMP DIGGING INTO CAM. CHAIN TENSIONER GAVE WAY AND VALVES STRUCK PISTONS. DRAIN OIL INTO WHITE CLOTH AND FOUND SEVERAL METAL CHUNKS AND GLITTERY OIL. CONTACT TAC REF #XXXXXXX WAD ADVISED TO REPLACE LONG BLOCK. PER REPAIR MANUAL REMOVED LOCK CARRIER AND REMOVED ENTIRE FRONT CLIP DRAIN AND FILL A/C SYSTEM AND REMOVE TRANS WITH ENGINE SEPARATE ON FLOOR. REPLACE ENGINE WITH ALL NEW GASKETS AND FLUIDS. REPLACE OIL COOLER AND FILTER HOUSING TO INSURE NO OIL FROM OLD ENGINE TRANSFERRED OVER.

I didn't find info on the exact TSB, but here is 2013147/4 , mine was /13
http://www.goapr.com/images/support/tsb/20t_cam_wear.pdf

EDIT: Note that my HPFP and cam followers were replaced at dealer at 46K on 12/2011. My car hit 92K (EXACTLY 46k more miles) and it went bad again. What's the lemon law again? :P

If I have this exact same issue at 46k miles again, they will be hearing from me. They said I have a 1 year/ 12,000 mile warranty. I'd be happy if they agreed to check the cam followers for me for free at whatever intervals they would do....

[B72011]

On something like this is it more cost beneficial to pull the engine and rebuild it or just buy a used unit and call it good after install?
I guess your future desires with the car come into play. As in maybe a full rebuild if ya feel youre gonna keep the car for a long long time?
Not saying a used unit wont last ya 100-150K miles right?

[4rings5stars]

On something like this is it more cost beneficial to pull the engine and rebuild it or just buy a used unit and call it good after install?
I guess your future desires with the car come into play. As in maybe a full rebuild if ya feel youre gonna keep the car for a long long time?
Not saying a used unit wont last ya 100-150K miles right?

For me, future desires include .7L more...

[Charles.waite]

So the "original" engines were BPY engine code. The 2007+ engines are BWT code.

As far as what has changed, there is nothing superficially aside from the valve cover being black on the BWT and silver on the BPY. I believe the only real difference is the pistons and the PCV routing. Other than that I have no idea to be honest, and I believe the BPY and BWT are completely interchangeable.

I know for a fact the fuelling components are the same (any part revisions aside, they're physically interchangeable).