The Ups and Downs of Tuning a Car

[alphaVR]

As m signature and some of you may know, I have a 08 Audi A4 Avant 6MT Quattro with the AWE Stage 3 Turbo kit on it, plus a bunch of other goodies...

My Audi is currently at a Dyno Tuner (Smokey's Dyno & Performance (http://www.smokeysdyno.com/) in Akron) getting its programming fine-tuned so it's not running so god-awefully rich. They've made substantial gains, but its not anywhere near "Done" or "perfect". The problem? GIAC. For whatever reason, the GIAC tune on this stage 3 setup runs so rich, its touching 10.2 AFR and leaving a visible cloud behind it (acts as good prius repellent though). By no means is this tune ANYWHERE near ideal for a setup like this, and its almost alarming that AWE would have sold a kit with this kind of a tune included. Regardless, Im having a dyno tuner do it the right way since an off-the-shelf tune isn't going to do what I need it to do.

The guys at Smokey's have been able to make some substantial gains over the 260whp/276tq originally dyno'ed a few months ago, and have improved the AFR's, but by no means is anywhere I'd consider "done" and they echo'ed that to me by wanting to keep the car longer to figure it all out. Theyre able to do what I estimate 70% of their job, but the last 30% is where GIAC is locking them out...

Called GIAC, and unsurprisingly the tune is fully encrypted such that it cannot be modified, even by a dealer, or to the extent that my tuners need to be able to. Understandable, though annoying. Problem is that it's preventing my tuners from doing their job to both mine and their satisfaction. GIAC said the only way around it would be to have the car completely flashed back to stock, but I wanted to verify whether this was the best option I have. Unfortunately the closest GIAC dealer is about 200 miles away, so I think the Audi dealer is my only choice. I just don't want to go there. Moreso, I don't even know if this is actually the solution to the problem. GIAC wasn't very helpful on the phone and have been piecing this together based on what research I've been able to do in the last few days since I dropped the car off.

Open to suggestions or other ideas here. As of right now, Im having the tuners do the best they can under the circumstances given (unless theyre able to crack the encryption somehow). Once I figure out if this flash-to-stock works to get it done right, Ill probably end up taking it back, but that is all contingent on what they're comfortable with doing.

Small rant, I know, and i apologize. I am annoyed with how much trouble my tuners have been going through, and frankly applaud them for not half-assing it when they had every chance to do so. Not only did they want to keep it to make it right, they were completely open and honest about which was AWESOME. Ill recommend them to everyone I know... Just wish I had known this before i dropped the car off, but nothing I can do now haha.

I need my damn car back for h2oi lol!

[ijbroussard]

If going back to stock is a solution, why don't you try one of the APR dealers? Per APR's website, there is one in Wadsworth and Westlake depending on what side of Akron you're on. You probably will only have to pay the hook up fee to go back to stock software.

[alphaVR]

That is certainly possible and are aware of both of them (one being ECS and the other being HS Tuning - I prefer the latter). The problem stems from whether the stock tune they put on my ECU is properly stock, and just not a APR-modified stock tune. The issue I ran into with GIAC is that their tunes are pre-packaged and encrypted... and I haven't been able to get any kind of confirmation whether the stock tunes are encrypted beyond OEM specs. I figured the Audi dealership would be the best solution since it will be OEM direct from the manufacturer...

Any tuning gurus would be appreciated for their inputhere.

[ericpaulyoung]

Your tuners can simply over write the GIAC tune. That is what they do when they flash you back to stock. They will need a file from the same ECU #, then just go from there.

Epy

[ericpaulyoung]

See if the Audi dealer has the same year car as yours in stock. Test drive it over to your tuner, and have them pull the file from the car you are test driving.

[alphaVR]

Thats not a bad idea, but might be difficult to pull off since the closest dealer is a 20 minute drive one-way to the tuner.

Best solution still appears to be flashing mine back to stock. Price at this point is almost a moot point - Id rather end up spending more to have this done the right way than to half-ass it.

My concern is mostly surrounding if the dealership will do it and if its actually the only way around this.

[Hugh@EuropaParts]

the ups and downs of tuning a car

the ups: power
the downs: your bank account, your free time, your sanity.

[jsandor91]

the ups and downs of tuning a car

the ups: power
the downs: your bank account, your free time, your sanity.

this x1000

[Solarsuplex]

Maestro tune maybe? Ionno.

[schirm]

Maestro tune maybe? Ionno.

That is what I was thinking.

[DOWORK]

Go to Cascade to have it re flashed. My car is chipped and they have never given me a problem. Would love to check your car out sometime. Good luck and +1 on smokeys!

[blingaling]

Go maestro, its a simple instal with the flashloader from your computer and im sure someone on here can throw you a stage 3 file and if you buy from RAI they will look at your file and tweak it as needed without having to hit a dyno. Ive had an excelent experience with maestro so far! Plus you can custom build a file for your specific car which i find awesome.

[alphaVR]

Go to Cascade to have it re flashed. My car is chipped and they have never given me a problem. Would love to check your car out sometime. Good luck and +1 on smokeys!

Yup, been chatting with some friends who know the service manager. Going to be going to them to get flashed to stock. Hopefully all goes well but it sounds like that wont happen till at least next week.


Go maestro, its a simple instal with the flashloader from your computer and im sure someone on here can throw you a stage 3 file and if you buy from RAI they will look at your file and tweak it as needed without having to hit a dyno. Ive had an excelent experience with maestro so far! Plus you can custom build a file for your specific car which i find awesome.
Would, but I would much prefer going with a dyno tuned option that has been tried and tested by pros on a dyno to get the most out of my setup. Yeah, itd be fun to build my own tune...maybe Ill go that route much longer down the road when I do bigger things... but right now Id rather pay someone to dial the car in.

[ericpaulyoung]

You can dyno tune anything, ncluding maestro.

EPY

[alphaVR]

Im not saying theres anything wrong with maestro. Im sure down the road Ill be considering it, but right now its not the solution I need/want.

[alphaVR]

So here's an alternate thought.... what about instead buying another 2008 Audi A4 ECU that has the stock flash on it and installing that to get past these issues with giac?

[vvenom800tt]

the ups and downs of tuning a car

the ups: power
the downs: your bank account, your free time, your sanity.

Resale value is also a down.

[alphaVR]

Resale value is also a down.

if youre modifying your car with resale value in mind, youre in it for the wrong reasons. Just my $0.02

Waiting for a local audi dealership to get back to me on if, and how much itd be to flash back to stock. Might have a local Unitronic dealer im good friends with who could give it a try...

Beyond this, not sure what I should do. This is beyond frustrating. I never once thought this process would be as difficult as its turned out to be.

[canadianA4B7]

Im in sort of a similar issue with my car and tuning. I was S3 k04 unitronic tuned, am now upgrading to a gtx28 turbo. And now the buyer of my k04 wants my ecu. But the whole ecu swap is going to cost $150 per ecu to b switched. But no gaurantee the tune on mine will stay with new users pin number. Its a crap shoot. Theres no easy way to change ecus. And and youll have to fill someones pocket in order to get it done right. Id say just dump the big name tune and go with custom tuning. If you go from giac to unitronic yer still in the same issue. As unitronic continues to tell me "its a base file that is made for a specific setup and we suggest you buy the right hardware for the tune we make" so my understanding buy our hardware, buy our tune and then you wont have issues cuz youve dumped all yer money into our company and we are trying to control the tuning world. This is only my .02 cents.

[alphaVR]

Im in sort of a similar issue with my car and tuning. I was S3 k04 unitronic tuned, am now upgrading to a gtx28 turbo. And now the buyer of my k04 wants my ecu. But the whole ecu swap is going to cost $150 per ecu to b switched. But no gaurantee the tune on mine will stay with new users pin number. Its a crap shoot. Theres no easy way to change ecus. And and youll have to fill someones pocket in order to get it done right. Id say just dump the big name tune and go with custom tuning. If you go from giac to unitronic yer still in the same issue. As unitronic continues to tell me "its a base file that is made for a specific setup and we suggest you buy the right hardware for the tune we make" so my understanding buy our hardware, buy our tune and then you wont have issues cuz youve dumped all yer money into our company and we are trying to control the tuning world. This is only my .02 cents.

Im doing exactly what youre suggesting. Im dumping this crappy GIAC tune in favor of a fully custom dyno tune thats dialed in to exactly what I have on my car. My issues are stemming from those big tuners locking down their tunes, which essentially screw us end-users if we ever want to change things.

The japanese tuners don't have these issues at all. All of their tunes are open-source. My buddy has a Subaru Legacy GT and he's able to download, flash, and even modify (if he wanted to) almost any tune he wants using the Accessport dongle. Its awesome and makes me wish us Euro guys had the same stuff.

Either way... trying to avoid the work of swapping ECUs. Don't see any value in all that work. Would rather just have mine flashed to stock.

[schirm]

The thought in the back of your head that your car can blow up. Then years later it happens.....

[canadianA4B7]

Ya i get ya. Unitronic came out with a cable and made it seem like you would be able to custom tune yourself. But after reading all you get is a possibility to search through there old files and select you you "might think" will work. Ummm isnt that kinda stupid if youve got stage 3 and load a 1+ file and the car blows up arent they still responsible???? Its there tune you are just loading it the user isnt a unitronic specialist. So you load there tune blow up yer car and they rebuild it? Nope yer responsible when loading so even if their tune they claim is what you need and its shit or not what you need runs rich runs lean if anything happens they arent even remotly responsible.

So i support you 100% in ditching the giac. And i have confirmation that maestro is capable over over riding all other tunes. I believe you need to send chris tapp a msg including some info. Hell send you a file load it customize it and down the oad you go.

[alphaVR]

if you could give me the contact info for this Chris at Maestro, thatd be awesome. I dont care if i have to trailer my car to my tuners after flashing to stock. As long as I can get it done!

[Jake@JHM]

So here's an alternate thought.... what about instead buying another 2008 Audi A4 ECU that has the stock flash on it and installing that to get past these issues with giac?

Will not work. Unless you have the ability to clone or defeat your immobilizer chip. The only other was is if you are going to buy an ECU from dealership and have them set it up for you.

Jake

[alphaVR]

Will not work. Unless you have the ability to clone or defeat your immobilizer chip. The only other was is if you are going to buy an ECU from dealership and have them set it up for you.

Jake

That was more or less implied.

Multiple feelers out to people... Maestro would be cool if I can find someone who has it local and can flash a stock tune to the car. Sometime next week I will get the car to my mech who does revo and see if he might be able to. Also got a line on a friend who does Uni tuning who might be able to as well.

Unfortunately, no "for sure" yet which is kind of disheartening. Apparently this isnt as easy of a task as I thought it was.

[Operator]

Maestro also will not work for what you want done. Even if someone was close their cable is locked to their car, they can't flash your car with their cable. I know you said you didn't want to go with what Eric said but it seems easiest, and you get a custom dyno tune..... Buy Maestro, flash your car, put it on the dyno, and continue tweaking the file while its on the dyno and being done by your tuner.

[alphaVR]

Unfortunately, I am in a position where I don't have the time to devote to being at the dyno to tune the car. Im paying these guys to do the job for me so I don't have to take time off work or run into issues with long-term commitments on weekends that I have. However, with the issues we've run into with the existing GIAC tune, Im trying to find a solution that isnt going to break my bank. I know... pay to play... but spending $1000 to get an OEM ecu put in the car is not what i consider the best solution. Most direct, sure, but I would rather pay someone $100 to flash it to stock than to deal with the stealership.

I apologize if I come off as stubborn, but I just don't see the reason to switch entirely to eurodyne if I am not going to be the one who's doing the tuning.

[vvenom800tt]

This is where i wish Dave at motoza had a tune for the B7 platform.

[Operator]

Unfortunately, I am in a position where I don't have the time to devote to being at the dyno to tune the car. Im paying these guys to do the job for me so I don't have to take time off work or run into issues with long-term commitments on weekends that I have. However, with the issues we've run into with the existing GIAC tune, Im trying to find a solution that isnt going to break my bank. I know... pay to play... but spending $1000 to get an OEM ecu put in the car is not what i consider the best solution. Most direct, sure, but I would rather pay someone $100 to flash it to stock than to deal with the stealership.

I apologize if I come off as stubborn, but I just don't see the reason to switch entirely to eurodyne if I am not going to be the one who's doing the tuning.

I don't think we are on the same page. If you get Maestro, you still just let the shop do the tuning. All you are paying them for is labor. You don't have to do a single thing but drop off the car with Maestro. As long as they have a laptop and download the free software they will be able to tune the car. So in the end you still get a full on custom Dyno tune.

[Operator]

This is where i wish Dave at motoza had a tune for the B7 platform.


I was local to him and caught up with him at a car show during the summer and he made it sound like that was in the works. Had I stayed in Colorado I might've been his beta car. I'll have to see if one of my Colorado buddies that's still there will get in contact with him to help things get started.

[vvenom800tt]

He told me that he is probably gonna start it early next year. If he does im jumping ship from this stupid apr tune asap.

[vce1232000]

He told me that he is probably gonna start it early next year. If he does im jumping ship from this stupid apr tune asap.

I got their KO4 APR tune. After I got the bugs out from a APR dealer that did some defective workmanship. The tune runs great not one hic up after the Audi APR dealer did their thang... Very happy with it. Since Im not after every ounce of horsepower Im good.... If anything I will bolt on a techtonic downpipe to get faster spool up...

[vvenom800tt]

My car has APR stage 2 from the previous owner but im not paying $150 to transfer it, then more to upgrade in the future. Id rather pay Dave $400 for a custom tune that he can revise to suit my needs.

[alphaVR]

I don't think we are on the same page. If you get Maestro, you still just let the shop do the tuning. All you are paying them for is labor. You don't have to do a single thing but drop off the car with Maestro. As long as they have a laptop and download the free software they will be able to tune the car. So in the end you still get a full on custom Dyno tune.

I understand that part, and I firmly believe the shop can do that. However, does this solve the problem of needing to erase the GIAC tune in its entirety? Everything I've read so far (limited - Im at work) doesn't seem to suggest that definitively. I could be wrong (and it's probably likely), but I haven't the time available to go into deep research on that right now.

I called GIAC again and asked if their stock tune is in any way, shape, or form encrypted beyond the normal Audi encryption. They said it is not. This is actually the first bit of good news as this means any GIAC dealer can get me to the stock condition I need... Closest GIAC dealer whom is active and for sure can flash it to stock, however, is 170 miles (one way) away from where I am. I doubt I could drive the car back 170 miles on a stock tune with stage 3 hardware (anyone care to chime in here?), so the idea of trailering the car is coming to mind...

Still going to wait and see if any of my local options can work.

Grrrrr this is frustrating stuff.


My car has APR stage 2 from the previous owner but im not paying $150 to transfer it, then more to upgrade in the future. Id rather pay Dave $400 for a custom tune that he can revise to suit my needs.

This. This is exactly why I don't like off-the-shelf tunes from the big names. Don't get me wrong, they work great for most, but theyre generic and not suited to your car and it's hardware and especially not suited for those who want to get as much as they can out of their cars. Too many "assumed" variables. Custom isn't cheaper, but it will sure as hell leave you the best performing car you can get with what you have in it.

[jsandor91]

maestro wiped my unitronic flash no problem just took a while.

shane ran his car on revo stage 2 when he was bt maybe ask him how it was?
also i think injectors will be the only real problem you would face.

[Operator]

I understand that part, and I firmly believe the shop can do that. However, does this solve the problem of needing to erase the GIAC tune in its entirety? Everything I've read so far (limited - Im at work) doesn't seem to suggest that definitively. I could be wrong (and it's probably likely), but I haven't the time available to go into deep research on that right now.

I called GIAC again and asked if their stock tune is in any way, shape, or form encrypted beyond the normal Audi encryption. They said it is not. This is actually the first bit of good news as this means any GIAC dealer can get me to the stock condition I need... Closest GIAC dealer whom is active and for sure can flash it to stock, however, is 170 miles (one way) away from where I am. I doubt I could drive the car back 170 miles on a stock tune with stage 3 hardware (anyone care to chime in here?), so the idea of trailering the car is coming to mind...

Still going to wait and see if any of my local options can work.

Grrrrr this is frustrating stuff.





Maestro will wipe GIAC from your ECU entirely. It cleared my APR file which encrypted the ECU just like GIAC's did to your car. If you go with driving to your GIAC dealer, yes you can drive your car back on a stock tune. It will drive crappy, and you can't romp on it, but it'll get you home.

[vce1232000]

My car has APR stage 2 from the previous owner but im not paying $150 to transfer it, then more to upgrade in the future. Id rather pay Dave $400 for a custom tune that he can revise to suit my needs.

I already had their stage 1 from the door. So when I got a used APR KO4 kit that was only 4 months old. All I had to pay was 100.00 to upgrade into a KO4 tune. I happen to catch the waterfest sale. But If I started with the KO4 from jump. I would have done Maestro. Since you can fine tune other mods.

[alphaVR]

Maestro will wipe GIAC from your ECU entirely. It cleared my APR file which encrypted the ECU just like GIAC's did to your car. If you go with driving to your GIAC dealer, yes you can drive your car back on a stock tune. It will drive crappy, and you can't romp on it, but it'll get you home.

I could trailer the car, but Ill probably have to raise the suspension to near max height to get it onto and off of the trailer.

At this point, all I can do is wait... I want to say I've done all the research I can. Thanks to all of you who have given me valuable input.

The shop's tuner is on vacation for the rest of the week, so I have to wait till Monday so I can talk to him and make sure what I'm doing works for him. From there, I'll figure out if my local options will work - if they do, awesome! if not, I'll plan on taking my car to that GIAC dealer and getting it back to the shop (somehow - trailering it or driving it carefully).

Beyond all this, I think I will be looking into Eurodyne at some point in the future.

[alphaVR]

Figured I should update this thread...

Beginning to become EXTREMELY frustrated with this dyno shop. Yes, they tried hard to get it done the first time, and yes they haven't charged me a cent for the work they did/didnt do. HOWEVER, getting in contact with the people who would/were doing the work has been very difficult. To the point where even voicemails haven't been returned and nobody seems interested in helping me.

Going through some friends who know the owner to figure out what the hell is going on. luckily I have my car so I don't need to worry about it getting messed with...

ISSUES... there are a few

Since getting the car back, ive noticed some hesitations and power issues at low RPM cruising. Especially when the engine is cold (aka mornings when I go to work) I find 1st and 2nd below 2500ish to have weird hesitations and Im not making power. CLEARLY the dyno shop made SOME changes, and these go away once the engine is warm, but its annoying

Been calling around to GIAC, local GIAC dealers, and AWE who installed the stage 3 kit (incl the tune).... this has been fun (sarcasm). GIAC says an Audi dealer or GIAC dealer can flash back to stock no problem. GIAC dealers say they might, but need ECU part# and a GIAC billing ID to be sure if they can. Audi dealers have straight up told me no.

Getting EXTREMELY frustrated at this point. I just want the car running right at all RPMs. It runs alright, but by no means is running right.

Didnt want to take the ECU out but it might be the only way at this point. I have AAA w/ 100 miles of towing, so I can at least consider driving it to get tuned and towing to wherever it needs to be... beyond that, idk.

NEVER thought this would be such a long and difficult process...

[p0isin]

Sorry to hear you are still having problems. Did the Audi dealership give you any info on why they won't flash you back to stock? I've never heard them refuse to reflash a car. Usually they will tee flash even if you don't want them to.

[alphaVR]

Sorry to hear you are still having problems. Did the Audi dealership give you any info on why they won't flash you back to stock? I've never heard them refuse to reflash a car. Usually they will tee flash even if you don't want them to.

This was my thinking as well.

1 said "we dont have the capability to do it".
2nd said "we dont do that"
3rd said "we might be able to. we'd be at 1 hour of labor just to find out and possibly upwards of 5 hours to get it done".

the 2 GIAC dealers...

1 said "we have done it, but need your ECU part# and the GIAC billing code for your car" and had a 2-3 week lead time on open slots to bring the car to them
2nd said "we might be able to do it, id have to check with GIAC" and needed the same info as dealer #1.

[vce1232000]

I can feel your pain. I was struggling with my fuel cutoff issues for the whole summer. I left car at the APR dealer that installed my entire APR KO4 kit. HPFP and all for the entire summer. Finally moved it into a APR VW dealer and they fixed all the workmanship faults in 2 weeks. Now Im back to finding performance goodies again. Some of these so-performance shops are funny. Take all the glory when everything goes rite. Then they don't know you when the screw something up or something doesn't go rite. God forbid they have to figure something out... Its their profession isn't it???

[mec]

Not gonna lie, I did not read the entire thread.

But it sounds like you are trying to get an OTS (off the shelf) tuner to make a custom file for you. I've gone through that with APR and it isn't really feasible, it gets super expensive for something that is not amazing.

Might I suggest, asking for a refund. Providing logs that show that your tune is not working, see if you can get a refund and do 1 of 2 things.

1. Get Maestro and self tune or pay someone local to do it, I think our community should help you do it yourself.
2. Get a custom tune from European Performance Labs or United Motorsports.

[alphaVR]

In a break of FINALLY good news...


AWE tuning said they can flash the ecu back to stock for a small labor charge + shipping. Willing to bite that if it means getting where I need to be.

Looking into Uni Stage 3 and Maestro at this point... Uni is the sure bet, but Maestro would let me do so much more. Just have never tuned a car and don't know what im doing.

aka, I dont want to royally screw my engine because i got a parameter wrong or something like that.

[alphaVR]

Not gonna lie, I did not read the entire thread.

But it sounds like you are trying to get an OTS (off the shelf) tuner to make a custom file for you. I've gone through that with APR and it isn't really feasible, it gets super expensive for something that is not amazing.


missed it by that much haha.

Im going from an OTS stage 3 GIAC tune to a custom dyno tune. Its not a custom tune from APR, Uni, GIAC, etc... completely 3rd party custom tune done by guys who SHOULD be reputable and more than capable of doing the work given the cars theyve done. Jury is still out whether I think they can still come through for me.

[schirm]

Since getting the car back, ive noticed some hesitations and power issues at low RPM cruising. Especially when the engine is cold (aka mornings when I go to work) I find 1st and 2nd below 2500ish to have weird hesitations and Im not making power. CLEARLY the dyno shop made SOME changes, and these go away once the engine is warm, but its annoying



I had this same issue in my A4, once it was warm it stopped. I noticed it helps a lot if you let it warm up for a minute or so.

[mec]

I would go the Maestro route if you are a car enthusiast.

Honest opinions
1. Maestro will never be as good as a tune from UM or EPL because its not done professionally and it is not very dynamic.
2. Maestro is much more fun to play with than taking various trips to a dyno.
3. If you enjoy tinkering with your car you will enjoy tinkering with Maestro.

It is really quite a safe tuning program. It's all about small changes, you make some changes, go for a drive, log, come back and see if your log shows that your changes were good or bad. If your changes were bad then revert to the last file you uploaded and make different changes, Other wise roll with the good changes and keep logging some more.

I've had my ups and downs with Maestro but now that I am putting time into using it, its really not aweful.

[peb]

Maestro...

it's really not aweful.

Lol... That's a glowing product review :)

[alphaVR]

Some updates...

Finally got in contact with tuning shop. Turns out I was waiting for them to call me, they were waiting for me to call. Failure on both ends I guess.

Anyways... AWE has said they will flash the ECU to stock for me. All I gotta do is ship them the ecu.

Car is heading to tuning shop early next week. Theyll take care of removing ECU, sending it to AWE, reinstallation, and tuning.

Theyre currently slammed with a bunch of cars... including a bunch of lambos being shipped up from Miami (must be nice! lol) so its lookin like the 16th the car should be done.

Im still going to look into Maestro for the long term. would love to learn how to tune a car, but right now would rather have a car running well than tinkering with it and taking guesses.

[Operator]

Im still going to look into Maestro for the long term. would love to learn how to tune a car, but right now would rather have a car running well than tinkering with it and taking guesses.

I still don't understand why you wouldn't just go Maestro now, and have the same shop use Maestro to tune your car. That way you have a well running car, that can still grow with your mods all while paying for tuning once.

[alphaVR]

I still don't understand why you wouldn't just go Maestro now, and have the same shop use Maestro to tune your car. That way you have a well running car, that can still grow with your mods all while paying for tuning once.

In a perfect world, I would. Alas this is not.

I realistically have money for one of the two right now - not both.

Other factors to consider: these guys will retune the car at a shop hourly rate if I do any minor modifications (anything that isnt a drastic change in performance parts). Bigger turbo, stroker, overbore, etc would be a completely new tune, similar to what im doing now.

So, extrapolating the numbers.... theyre charging me around $650 to do a full dyno tune. Maestro would be $800ish. At that rate, I'd have to either A) spend somewhere around 8 ADDITIONAL hours getting tuning tweaks (give or take a few), or B) get a second completely new tune + some modifications to the tune, all of which would have to happen AFTER this initial tuning, in order for it to be more cost-effective to go Maestro. Besides, if I get to the point where its a legit big turbo and some serious engine mods, Id probably be looking at maestro anyways.

Also factor in up-front costs... itd be $1500 right now just to get Maestro for my car AND have it professionally tuned.

So... could I? Sure. Do I want to? Yes. Is it the smart decision to make right now? No... I would prefer my money go towards getting the car in a good running condition as-is right now and then begin to look at performance beyond this point (aka maestro).


Hopefully that helps clarify my position and what my general line of thinking is.

[alphaVR]

Thought I'd give everyone an update...

Car is getting tuned. They were able to locate an easier and free method to flash back to stock once they had the car, so barring any unforeseen issues popping up, all should be smooth sailing (relatively). I say this because they said they were able to flash it but didn't know 100% if it'd work until they could get it on the dyno and start tuning. Unfortunately their tuning guru has been out sick with some nasty flu bug so things have been delayed. Was hoping to get the car back last week, now hoping for sometime this week.

Still have high hopes. REALLY really hoping that after going through all this headache and hassle I can finally have a well-running car. All that Im after right now. Performance gains are purely secondary, if not tertiary in terms of what I want out of this.

Will update once the car is done and post videos/graphs/etc. Here's to hoping it'll be back sometime this week

[alphaVR]

I am in need of advice here. Im at a loss for what to do... and am strongly considering just selling the car before I dump exhuberant amounts of money into something as stupidly simple as a tune.

I had my tuners send the ECU to AWE to get flashed back to stock. ECU showed up a day late, but they had it. Then I got this email:

"We are not sure why, but we cannot seem to get this thing to accept the stock program. It is bizarre. My tech has been working on all day.... Funny, we have record of originally flashing this computer and there is no sign that it was ever a problem."
Now, my tuners had TRIED to make changes but to my knowledge none had been made because the ECU was in a read-only mode (not allowing for any changes to be made). AWE thinks there were changes made and now its preventing them from flashing to stock.

Does anyone know if this makes sense?

Also... what the hell do I do now? Im not sure what can be done... Help? lol

[Jake@JHM]

I am in need of advice here. Im at a loss for what to do... and am strongly considering just selling the car before I dump exhuberant amounts of money into something as stupidly simple as a tune.

I had my tuners send the ECU to AWE to get flashed back to stock. ECU showed up a day late, but they had it. Then I got this email:

Now, my tuners had TRIED to make changes but to my knowledge none had been made because the ECU was in a read-only mode (not allowing for any changes to be made). AWE thinks there were changes made and now its preventing them from flashing to stock.

Does anyone know if this makes sense?

Also... what the hell do I do now? Im not sure what can be done... Help? lol


Hey man,

Willing to let us give it a try? For development I have 3 different ECUs all clones of my original and I also have a 2008 6MT so we could physically test your ECU in my car and be very thorough to make sure there is nothing physically wrong with your ECU. As long as nothing is wrong with your IMMO we will be good. Even if your ECU is bricked and your IMMO is good, we can still get your information and rebuild you an ECU.

We have a ton of experience with these ECU's and should be able to help you out on this. If you are only looking for it go back to stock we can do it for 1 hour of labor. If for some reason we cannot get your ECU up and running we won't charge you because we couldn't help you.

Let me know man, we are here to help.

Jake

[alphaVR]

PM'ed!

[wyoa4b7]

i havent heard many people talk about the tune i use but i have AUTOSPEED on mine and i enjoy it even though i am only on stage 2 but i also have the wifi adaptor so i can change my tune for specific fuels and it even has a theft mode and valet mode, with just a simple click on my iphone... they aren't just a basic tune like APR or REVO you can actually have them customize tunes depending on what you have done to your car

[alphaVR]

i havent heard many people talk about the tune i use but i have AUTOSPEED on mine and i enjoy it even though i am only on stage 2 but i also have the wifi adaptor so i can change my tune for specific fuels and it even has a theft mode and valet mode, with just a simple click on my iphone... they aren't just a basic tune like APR or REVO you can actually have them customize tunes depending on what you have done to your car

Looking to stick with something either tried and true or customized to my setup. I would gladly trade features like a wifi controller, 2-step, and launch control for something that Ill be able to reliably get everything i can out of my car.

[Operator]

Looking to stick with something either tried and true or customized to my setup. I would gladly trade features like a wifi controller, 2-step, and launch control for something that Ill be able to reliably get everything i can out of my car.

Hopefully JHM, can give you a hand. And if they can return to you a working ECU I'd go with EPL, or United Motorsports, or Autospeed (or maybe JHM could also do remote tuning for you?!?). Yeh, it's going to cost some coin, but I say get the car running and enjoy it. If you give up now, you'll be wasting more money parting out then, just getting a legit custom tune.

[alphaVR]

I apologize. I seem to have overreacted a bit. Granted the news wasn't good and sounded very much like a new ECU was needed...

I received word this morning that AWE, with the direct help from GIAC themselves, were able to break through whatever it was that was blocking them (hoping for further explanation) and were able to flash the stock tune onto the ECU.

Barring anything completely unexpected happening once its received and reinstalled, tuning should start back up Wednesday and *HOPEFULLY* will get the car back Friday. We shall see.

I seriously have to hand it to AWE who, after being initially blocked, spent the better part of an entire work day getting it fixed and even went so far as to get GIAC directly involved, all without charging me more than what they originally quoted me at. Fantastic work by these guys. Hoping for the best now.... time to get that tuning on!

[Jake@JHM]

I apologize. I seem to have overreacted a bit. Granted the news wasn't good and sounded very much like a new ECU was needed...

I received word this morning that AWE, with the direct help from GIAC themselves, were able to break through whatever it was that was blocking them (hoping for further explanation) and were able to flash the stock tune onto the ECU.

Barring anything completely unexpected happening once its received and reinstalled, tuning should start back up Wednesday and *HOPEFULLY* will get the car back Friday. We shall see.

I seriously have to hand it to AWE who, after being initially blocked, spent the better part of an entire work day getting it fixed and even went so far as to get GIAC directly involved, all without charging me more than what they originally quoted me at. Fantastic work by these guys. Hoping for the best now.... time to get that tuning on!

Glad to hear that it is working! If there is ever anything else you would like help with, please let me know.

Jake

[vce1232000]

I apologize. I seem to have overreacted a bit. Granted the news wasn't good and sounded very much like a new ECU was needed...

I received word this morning that AWE, with the direct help from GIAC themselves, were able to break through whatever it was that was blocking them (hoping for further explanation) and were able to flash the stock tune onto the ECU.

Barring anything completely unexpected happening once its received and reinstalled, tuning should start back up Wednesday and *HOPEFULLY* will get the car back Friday. We shall see.

I seriously have to hand it to AWE who, after being initially blocked, spent the better part of an entire work day getting it fixed and even went so far as to get GIAC directly involved, all without charging me more than what they originally quoted me at. Fantastic work by these guys. Hoping for the best now.... time to get that tuning on!

True tuning shops that tackle problems head on[up]. Instead of some that pass the buck[down][poop].

[alphaVR]

Commence raging.

Got the call yesterday the car was done. I told them I'd pick it up today.. no worries. Car was still on the dyno when I picked it up, which I thought was strange... But still, here's the dyno graph they gave me comparing where it "is" now, compared to where it was

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/v/1379737_10202383153726902_514752942_n.jpg?oh=ea2c9 bfeac001fcde44df9209e683570&oe=527BC989

Paid, got the key, and drove her home... and I shit you not no more than 5 miles away, I was having issues. I didnt turn around as I had places I needed to be... so I kept going. Got a CEL and went into limp mode.

Got home, did a scan and had these codes:

000564 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0234 - 001 - Limit Exceeded (Overboost Condition) - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 4
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 236259 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6016 /min
Load: 100.0 %
Speed: 130.0 km/h
Temperature: 86.0°C
Temperature: 23.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.462 V

008568 - Bank 1; System Too Rich off Idle
P2178 - 002 - - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 236282 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2788 /min
Load: 24.3 %
Speed: 103.0 km/h
Temperature: 86.0°C
Temperature: 24.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

I thought... thats odd... cleared them, went on another drive and the same thing happend. Again an overboost MIL with full limp mode.... WTF

Did some datalogging and ended up with these graphs... both are from the same run. 3rd gear from a dig at 2000RPM.

Actual vs. Requested Boost (PSI) - Median Injection Timing (ms)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/tbozeglav/BoostPress_zps61f210fa.png

Actual vs Requested Fuel Pressure (bar)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/tbozeglav/FUELPRESS_zps6f7a7957.png

Oh, and Im still rolling some serious coal when I get into boost. Yeah...


Now, Im no tuning guru... and I am not by any means a genius with modding cars... but this does NOT look right. This turbo (2871R) is capable of at least DOUBLE the PSI currently being made, and the boost spikes are extremely worrying...

Can anyone else make sense of what I am seeing?!

[Operator]

A GT28 tune only requesting 15psi?!? Yeh, back to the shop, and get some questions answered!!!!

[mec]

Commence raging.

Got the call yesterday the car was done. I told them I'd pick it up today.. no worries. Car was still on the dyno when I picked it up, which I thought was strange... But still, here's the dyno graph they gave me comparing where it "is" now, compared to where it was

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/v/1379737_10202383153726902_514752942_n.jpg?oh=ea2c9 bfeac001fcde44df9209e683570&oe=527BC989

Paid, got the key, and drove her home... and I shit you not no more than 5 miles away, I was having issues. I didnt turn around as I had places I needed to be... so I kept going. Got a CEL and went into limp mode.

Got home, did a scan and had these codes:

000564 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0234 - 001 - Limit Exceeded (Overboost Condition) - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 4
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 236259 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6016 /min
Load: 100.0 %
Speed: 130.0 km/h
Temperature: 86.0°C
Temperature: 23.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.462 V

008568 - Bank 1; System Too Rich off Idle
P2178 - 002 - - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 236282 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2788 /min
Load: 24.3 %
Speed: 103.0 km/h
Temperature: 86.0°C
Temperature: 24.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

I thought... thats odd... cleared them, went on another drive and the same thing happend. Again an overboost MIL with full limp mode.... WTF

Did some datalogging and ended up with these graphs... both are from the same run. 3rd gear from a dig at 2000RPM.

Actual vs. Requested Boost (PSI) - Median Injection Timing (ms)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/tbozeglav/BoostPress_zps61f210fa.png

Actual vs Requested Fuel Pressure (bar)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/tbozeglav/FUELPRESS_zps6f7a7957.png

Oh, and Im still rolling some serious coal when I get into boost. Yeah...


Now, Im no tuning guru... and I am not by any means a genius with modding cars... but this does NOT look right. This turbo (2871R) is capable of at least DOUBLE the PSI currently being made, and the boost spikes are extremely worrying...

Can anyone else make sense of what I am seeing?!

I would be willing to bet the overboost code is from them hooking up the n75 incorrectly. Can you take some pictures of the hose routing for us? where each nipple on the n75 connects to what? Do you have VCDS? If you do the second thing to do is run through the output functions under the engine module. Run through them until you see n75 and then have a friend listen to the n75 click while you actuate it via the laptop. Do the same for the Boost pressure sensor(Map Sensor, don't remember but I think it's called G31).

So make sure both of those sensors are good and send us some pictures of the hose routing to the n75.

[alphaVR]

Mec, sent you a PM.

Its worth noting that they shouldn't have touched anything in the engine bay aside from anything absolutely necessary to remove the ECU. The car, when I dropped it off to them the first time, would peak 23-24 and hold about 20psi all the way to red line. Yes, it was running pig rich from 4000-redline, but it wasn't losing/spiking boost like this. Even still, there should have been zero hardware changes needed as they were tasked purely with the software side of things.

Called them this morning, laid down the lumber on this. Tuner is headed off to SEMA for the rest of the week, which is fine (my other car is still out of commission), but I told them I want my money back. They said it's fine, just I'd have to bring the car back to get flashed to stock (no problem). Longtime friend who is a dealer for C2 and really knows his shit with tuning will be taking over. He's getting everything lined up with C2 so after I get flashed to stock I can take the car directly to him.

[alphaVR]

Did some more datalogging tonight. This time included the N75 on the logs. here's what I got. Note this time the 3rd gear pull did not give me the overboost fault and subsequent limp mode at 6000 rpm

**NOTE: The N75 is plotted on the RIGHT Y-axis... boost pressures plotted on the LEFT

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/tbozeglav/boostN75_zps7c0a1af4.png

[aluthman]

Did you actually intend to graph negative values for boost and N75 duty or was that a mistake? It makes no sense while boost would climb and hold steady while the floor falls out of wastegate duty. Unless of course your WG isn't actually opening. I would check the WG actuator for proper operation. If you rev the car in neutral, does any boost build?

[alphaVR]

N75 is plotted on the RIGHT. You need to reference the right y-axis for the value corresponding to that graph line (aka the blue line). Peaks around 95% and then bottoms out at 0.8%.

I can post the raw data from that run if you want. To get those boost #s, i subtracted the atmospheric pressure readings the ECU measured from the boost values (both in mbar) then multiplied by 0.0145 to get the boost PSI equivalent. Comparing to boost levels ive seen on my gauge to what my calculations show, it seems fairly accurate...

As far as making boost in neutral... it does make some boost, but being it a larger turbo than OEM, it doesnt spike as much boost as the KO3s on my stage 2+ GLI... maybe like 3psi? Don't recall anything specific. I can check tomorrow...

[choochb5]

Looks like a really messed up tune. The ecu is doing what it thinks it needs to do. The ecu sees actual boost is more than specified, thus the overboost code, so the n75 duty starts dropping trying to decrease boost. When it hits 0, you are running 100% on mechanical wastegate control. You're probably just chasing your tail troubleshooting without a proper tune.

[alphaVR]

Looks like a really messed up tune. The ecu is doing what it thinks it needs to do. The ecu sees actual boost is more than specified, thus the overboost code, so the n75 duty starts dropping trying to decrease boost. When it hits 0, you are running 100% on mechanical wastegate control. You're probably just chasing your tail troubleshooting without a proper tune.

At this point i am just collecting data so if they ask why I am going elsewhere I can show them everything the car is doing and tell them "because this is the crap you gave me".

Im just worried theres a hidden mechanical issue here... When I dropped the car off, there werent ANY mechanical issues or anything to indicate a bad wastegate actuator, N75, etc. Car made boost perfectly fine - It just had a shitty fuel mapping and thought they could handle building off what was already there. Now Im having all kinds of crazy issues that i've never seen.

It sucks, but whatever. At least I am getting my money back and able to go somewhere else.

[alphaVR]

Really worried they fucked something up on my car... I noticed this behind my car where I park at home exactly at the exhaust tips. Would only have happened after I started the car. I did start it and went back inside to let it warm up before leaving for work... either way...

what. the. fuck.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9104498/IMG_20131108_172225.jpg

[Jake@JHM]

Is that oil? Didn't someone post a picture similar to this one not to long ago?

[alphaVR]

Went back out to smell fearing it was oil. I couldnt smell anything that seemed like it.

Possible its just soot in the exhaust from running UNBELIEVABLY rich combining with condensed exhaust gasses? Its been pretty cold here, hovering right around freezing in the morning. Also a likely candidate. I really hope its not oil cuz... well, that just made things expensive. :-\

[alphaVR]

Sigh... Even more issues.

Now having issues starting the car during cold starts. Its taking increasingly more cranking to get it to fire. Itll fire right up after, even if you let it sit for a bit... but geez. I have never once had someone do such shitty work.