3 days at Laguna Seca with BMW CCA

[westwest888]

Having a good time with the BMW CCA at their national celebration week, Oktoberfest. They're running 4 days of driving school; I signed up for 3 of them. Laguna Seca is a tricky circuit in a lot of ways. First it's in a park, so they have a strict sound limit of 92 DB (a factory GT3 is louder than this). Second, it's unbelievably expensive and the track days usually are during the week ($300 per day). Third, it's quite challenging to drive it. The lap times are under 2 minutes and you never get a mental break in those 11.5 turns. The plusses are: you can see the pacific ocean from the track (hence the name), there's lots of room to pass, the two fastest straights have long gravel runoffs at the end, and the track is quite wide so it's easy to let multiple cars pass on either side.

Today I'm learning the circuit again since I haven't been here in 20 months. I've probably done 1000 laps of Thunderhill which feels more comfortable to me. This felt foreign but I got the hang of it by afternoon. I'll build my speed up tomorrow and Saturday. Today was about figuring out how to wire up the corners so they are flow and get a consistent line that feels comfortable and safe to me. Nothing worse than being at 10/10 and running out of talent (or pavement).

Recall that the last time I was on this track it was my second outing in the S4. I destroyed the front rotors and drove home with only 3 brakes. Then I got the AP Racing kit and Pagid Yellows. It's working out great and I have plenty of braking power left. I probably should have bled the lines because it gets spongy when I'm back on the paddock - it takes two pumps to get the pedal feel back. The rotors are 580 F after a cool down lap. Compare that to the 997 Turbo S next to me, which has rotor temps of about 380 F. 1000 less pounds and a lot more momentum carried.

The APR CPS is holding up brilliantly. The coolant temps in the two loops and the metal temps on the block and blower are 40-49 degrees apart. Highly recommend this for anyone that wants consistent performance. I've been running REVO 91 all day and I will mix in some 101 octane and do REVO 93 tomorrow. I still need 3rd gear to get up the back hill (turn 6 to turn 8). It dogs in 4th but it's doable.

Sorry for the low video quality - hotel wifi is garbage and there isn't 4G in the middle of nowhere. Keep in mind also that the camera is in the tow hook on the right side of the car. I'm not missing the apexes or turn in points, the camera is just off center.

EDIT: here are some HD videos


http://youtu.be/RgltkRGdHxQ


http://youtu.be/wEOFnoGv1-o


http://youtu.be/pgYulmnFe_g


http://youtu.be/Uf3RnhrZIZI


http://youtu.be/Zkq37rL4A6U

[westwest888]

Ran a 1:54 today on REVO 100. For reference, the best time you can wring out of a stock 335i is about 1:49. That would be a "magazine" time. I'm running fairly consistent 1:55 to 1:57 laps. There's 35 cars on track so lots of passing and different situations are happening each lap. No big deal.

They sell VP Racing 101 octane fuel for $9.00 a gallon. Not too bad considering pump stations the Monterey/Pebble Beach area are about $4.80 a gallon for premium 91. The VP Racing 91 octane is $6.00 a gallon at the track.

Though it was not that noticeable at the drag strip, the 100 tune is shining here and seems to be working well with the APR CPS. There's a lot more load and strain on the engine. The 3rd and 4th gear pulls are up very steep hills and the whole system is under stress after 30 minutes of abuse (15 laps).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTVHR9ThiXU


http://youtu.be/ko8jIdJRqbc


http://youtu.be/ZOvgzYC8qVc

[mcoomer]

If you have these in HD, I'd love to see you upload them once you get to a faster connection. I've never been but Laguna Seca is one of my all time favorite tracks, particularly for Superbike and Moto GP. I'm very jealous right about now.

[westwest888]

Adding in videos to first post.

[GeoJoe]

Nice angle on that front bumper vid. Makes it look a lot easier than Gran Turismo on PS3.

[dbX79]

Nice videos. Is that GoPro on your car? You did well. So you've got APR on your car? Seems like S4's aren't that quick when on the track. Did you say the brakes were overheating? So taking our cars out to the track strains them. I might need to get some better equipment before wearing out my daily driver especially the brakes.

[westwest888]

Nice videos. Is that GoPro on your car? You did well. So you've got APR on your car? Seems like S4's aren't that quick when on the track. Did you say the brakes were overheating? So taking our cars out to the track strains them. I might need to get some better equipment before wearing out my daily driver especially the brakes.

This was a national meet so there was a lot of talent on the track. I'm typically among the faster drivers but a good percentage of these folks have been club racing for longer than I've been going to track "schools". I was one of the few people on street tires. You'd be amazed what a car can do on slicks - it almost seems to defy applied physics. A 20 year old BMW 318i on slicks in considerably faster around a track than anything Audi sells at the dealer today.

It's a GoPro mounted in the tow hook. I have an APR CPS, and APR carbon fiber intake pipe, and a REVO tune. Then I run a 15" AP Racing brake kit with Pagid Yellow RS29. I could really use a brake ducting kit to keep the rotors cooler.

[Sundance]

Great videos! FYI: Laguna Seca means Dry Lagoon. The current turns 3, 4, 5 are located in what use to be the infield (the dry lake bed). I'm old and remember the glory days of Can-Am racing at Laguna Seca and the many crashes especially around the 'corkscrew'. I'd love to drive it someday, but I'm afraid I'd get hooked on track days and all of the expenses entailed! Keep up the good work!

[westwest888]

Magazine rung out a 1:39 in a 991 C4S. I think my best was 1:53.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKPqKiRDZI&feature=player_embedded

[westwest888]

My best is between 1:47 and 1:48, for the sessions that I recorded. I only did GoPro on 2 of 7 sessions this weekend. This is an improvement of over 5 seconds since last time I was here six months ago. The only thing I've changed is swaybars and a replacement set of Pilot Super Sports.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gMbxPrAVUc

[SwankPeRFection]

Watched the first video. You seem to be lulling a whole lot in some areas of the track where you should still be accelerating. It's almost like you're scared to come up on the next turn faster than what your balls tell you. You got passed in these sections repetitively because you're just sitting there not slowing down or accelerating... just cruising. What's up?

[Okan509]

the way you shift makes me cringe

[GeoJoe]

the way you shift makes me cringe

Agree... why so long on the clutch?


Also, your GoPro vids all have the typical click prob that happens without the doohikey installed...


http://vimeo.com/7807995

[westwest888]

Watched the first video. You seem to be lulling a whole lot in some areas of the track where you should still be accelerating. It's almost like you're scared to come up on the next turn faster than what your balls tell you. You got passed in these sections repetitively because you're just sitting there not slowing down or accelerating... just cruising. What's up?

Like I said, I was re-learning the track that day. There's also caution flags and other things you can't see in the video. I might also be talking to someone in the car with me or demonstrating a specific driving technique. The videos in this thread aren't victory videos. See the other thread for that :)

[westwest888]

the way you shift makes me cringe

The clutch is on its last legs at 34,500 miles. Have to take it easy on that poor thing until I upgrade it. It's definitely not rated for 390 ft/lb and it falls apart if you do lots of redline shifts. The dual mass flywheel in particular is not kind to quick shifts at high RPM, and accelerates the wear if you do that. The new flywheel will let me shift as fast as I want in a repeatable and reliable way.

[Pangea]

Hey westwest, you mentioned 1000 laps at Thunderhill, how many of those are with your current modded S4 (were others on a previous S4)?

[westwest888]

Hey westwest, you mentioned 1000 laps at Thunderhill, how many of those are with your current modded S4 (were others on a previous S4)?

They were all in the S4. The first event was October 2010 in a bone stock S4. I posted this about it on AudiWorld:


What can I say except this car is incredible and met my very high expectations for what it should be. As a dedicated and long time BMW owner, I salute Audi for knocking this one out of the park at the $45k price point. This car was hanging with and exceeding the ability of some M3 and 911 owners I was sharing the track with in the intermediate run group. The even was put on by the BMW CCA, a great organization for learning.

What I like about the S4 is that it's incredibly capable in stock form, compared to my 3 series which needed about $7k in tuning to get perfect. The S4 suspension sits just right. It has both active limited slip (rear) and passive (torsen, center) limited slip differentials. It has brilliant servotronic steering, the same part from Bosch as the M3. It has really wide 255 tires on all four corners. It does not feel like a 3900 pound car, although there are certainly places where slow-in, fast-out is the only way you're getting through. 3rd (97 mph) and 4th gear (130 mph) are a tad close in ratio, IMO. This is really apparent on downshifts where you have to blip only like 800 RPM (it feels like).

The 3.0T is a total beast in the over 100mph range. The digital speedo goes so fast it skipped: 101 - 107 - 111 - 114 - 117 - 121 - 124. I can't believe the rate of acceleration never slowed in the face of so much air resistance. I was running out of 4th gear - which is why it should be taller. I don't want to run my engine at an average of 6500 RPM for a long time in two gears.

A heavy car going that fast has one major limitation - brakes. At even my novice-amateur experience level on a new track I had cooked the crap out of them. A lot of pad material built up on the rotor and they were shuddering for periods of time (until the material scraped off). I had to pit 1/2 lap before checkered flag once because my stopping distance increased about 50% from one lap to the next. She really needs high temp brake fluid and race pads for me to run her like this.

Compared to the 3 series, the S4 stability program doesn't interfere as much. Firstly, it doesn't give a visual warning that it is doing something (or I never tripped it). I think I may have felt it slow me up just one time when I had a nice four wheel drift going around a constant radius turn. I want to do a car control clinic before I go stability off.

Then I posted this on the 2nd event, three months later:


BMW CCA put on a great 2 day event at Mazda Laguna Seca raceway in Monterey, CA, about 2 hours south of SF. If you are ever thinking of doing a "mod" to your car, do a mod to yourself first and learn how to drive your car the right way. You'd be surprised what they'll teach you.

I learned that at my experience level stock pads were a pad idea. I got promoted to the "B" group and got signed off to ride solo. I went home with one scored rotor. Need to look into some track pads for this car, and new front rotors

I can't say enough good things about how this S4 handles. It can be coaxed around any corner with perfect rotation. The factory alignment is perfect. The engine stayed exactly at center on the temp dial (240 degrees?). The front brakes are easily overwhelmed, which I knew going into this. The factory Dunlops are holding up extremely well and I will likely replace them with the same brand and model when they wear out. The grip is tremendous.

[westwest888]

Agree... why so long on the clutch?


Also, your GoPro vids all have the typical click prob that happens without the doohikey installed...


http://vimeo.com/7807995

Heh. The clicking is actual suspension noise :)

[GeoJoe]

Heh. The clicking is actual suspension noise :)

Yeah - I think you mentioned this once before. I don't buy it. Older GoPro's have this issue. Mount it inside, on your bumper, on a bike, wherever and I'll bet you get the same click click clack.

[westwest888]

Yeah - I think you mentioned this once before. I don't buy it. Older GoPro's have this issue. Mount it inside, on your bumper, on a bike, wherever and I'll bet you get the same click click clack.

It's a black edition hero 3 or whatever.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7301/8734482188_d5dc95d2c8_b.jpg

[MMisencik157]

Laguna Seca is definitely a fun track. Being so close to the ocean means the weather is never really too hot like it can be at Thunderhill and especially Buttonwillow in the summer time. Ive never done a lap there in the S4 but Ive been there 3 times in my S2000. I want to go more but the 92db limit means I have to swap my stock exhaust on every time I go there.

This is my best lap with the S2000:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M17Ulr5wMdg&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqoNDH1NJTI8SSaV7njdaFw

Since its more of a power track I think the S4 has the potential to be faster but the brakes will be the limiting factor for sure. It could be a challenge to find street(ish) pads that will hold up for more than a lap or two in the stock calipers on stock rotors before fading (driving 10/10ths at least). Eurocode sways, alu kreuz, new pads, rotors and possibly SS lines are coming in the next week or so and then hopefully later this year Ill be able to record some times at Laguna!

Nice job on the 5 second improvement! I see you're running Michelin PSS. Are you having any troubles with those chunking on the shoulders?

[westwest888]

Dial in the alignment and the tire chunking isn't a problem. I also know how to brake in a straight line rather than using the outside front tire in a turn. My tire wear is very even with -2.6 camber and very mild 1/32 toe out (each side).

Honestly I'd buy a carbon brake kit if I could do so reasonably (I consider $8k reasonable for that). The key is to learn how to only graze the brakes for each wide turn. If you get on them hard for the faster turns you won't have enough brakes left for the deep turns.

The Pagid Yellow RS29 on an AP Racing 380mm slotted rotor makes no loud brake noises and even the dust isn't that bad on the street. The longevity is insane, 13 track days and 10k street miles for the pads.

[MMisencik157]

Dial in the alignment and the tire chunking isn't a problem. I also know how to brake in a straight line rather than using the outside front tire in a turn. My tire wear is very even with -2.6 camber and very mild 1/32 toe out (each side).

Honestly I'd buy a carbon brake kit if I could do so reasonably (I consider $8k reasonable for that). The key is to learn how to only graze the brakes for each wide turn. If you get on them hard for the faster turns you won't have enough brakes left for the deep turns.

The Pagid Yellow RS29 on an AP Racing 380mm slotted rotor makes no loud brake noises and even the dust isn't that bad on the street. The longevity is insane, 13 track days and 10k street miles for the pads.

I know they have a really soft sidewall and I figured a decent amount of negative camber would help but its good to hear it completely solved the problem for you. How long will they go before overheating? Braking in a straight line is ideal and works well at at some tracks, but there are definitely some tracks that require trail braking to really extract the most.

How come carbon ceramic? Aside from the reduction in unsprung weight its a waste of money IMO. A lot of the porsche guys that opted for PCCB are jumping ship and switching to iron after they destroy $5-10K in rotor rings in the same amount of time as the <$1k iron rings would have lasted. Also pad choices are limited compared to what you have with iron rotors. If I were going to spend that kind of money on brakes, I would piece together a kit from PFC and never look back.

Thats really good life out of the RS29s! Its really surprising how many of the newish "track" pads are so streetable. The people that claim its unsafe to street drive on track pads have either never tried track pads or have only tried some 20+ year old compound. Ive daily driven on Carbotech XP10, XP12 and Project Mu Club Racer. They all work better cold than most street pads. The carbotechs can make a lot of noise if the transfer layer has been scraped off but the PMU CRs have just been fantastic, a little screech every now and again but pretty quiet for the most part. The RS29 is on my list of pads to try although Ill be testing some of PFCs new compounds first (PFC 11 and 12). If this car would see more than 2-3 events per year then a front BBK and track pads would be a no brainer.

Just curious- what AP caliper do you have and what is the vane count and size of the rotors? 380x?mm

[westwest888]

I found the PF06 to be blacker than coal and noisier than a bus, but that was on BMW rotors.

[MMisencik157]

Have you tried any of the newer compounds? 06 was replaced by the 08 which is now being replaced by the new 12 as the flagship endurance compound. I don't think the 08 was as bad as you describe the 06 to be on the street. Either way Im glad to know the RS29 works well as a plug and play option.

[westwest888]

I've heard the PS29 is harder to bed, but if you get it right it lasts longer.