DSG: Need some help

[Biggriff]

Guys

Been having some issues with my DSG box. After accelerating and then coming off the gas the box goes dow through the gears and on a number of occasions when it drops into 5th no gear is selected and the box goes into neutral. Audi UK have looked at it but say its not bringing up any warning lights or error codes so after a two week investigation have handed it back (unfixed). They are now going to take it in again and the Service Manager is going to drive it normally as see if he gets it to fault.

Th box normally only does this after accelerating hard in auto and then coming back on the gas after coming off the power.

Any ideas? My thought is mechatronic as it seems to be heat related.

Richard

[SwankPeRFection]

What year? Sounds like the mech unit is going out on you. These are similar issues to what users in the US have had and Audi replaced the mech unit under warranty no questions asked. I think you just have a dick Audi dealer you're possibly dealing with. There are TSBs all over the place about DSG shifting issues, etc.

[Biggriff]

its a 2010, and yes I agree the Dealer should be aware. Its a global problem, not just limited to one country.

[SwankPeRFection]

If it's a 2010, then your mech is probably on the way out. It's a known issue because of a physical construction of the mech units in the 2010 year ones. The logic board is most likely on its way out. There are TSBs in place that say to replace the mech units.

[Biggriff]

Given my dealer has chased this for two weeks and got no-where how can I show him the TSB's. Are they accessible anywhere? We dont have the advanced sort of freedom of information stuff you guys do in the USA.

[wwhan]

Given my dealer has chased this for two weeks and got no-where how can I show him the TSB's. Are they accessible anywhere? We dont have the advanced sort of freedom of information stuff you guys do in the USA.

Here: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/


Service Bulletin No.: 35-13-10
Component(s): ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
NHTSA ID Number: 10052294
All Products Associated with this Service Bulletin expand
Details close
0 Associated Documents
Manufacturer: Volkswagen of America, Inc.
SUMMARY:
AUDI: GEARBOX MALFUNCTION MESSAGE IN CLUSTER. PLASTIC CIRCUIT PLATES CAN DELAMINATE DUE TO OIL ADDITIVES. *JS

Here's another interesting one;

Service Bulletin No.: TSB-37-13-08
Component(s): POWER TRAIN
NHTSA ID Number: 10052520
All Products Associated with this Service Bulletin expand
Details close
0 Associated Documents
Manufacturer: Volkswagen of America, Inc.
SUMMARY:
AUDI: SOME VEHICLE MAY EXPERIENCE GEARBOX LIMP MODE. THE ISSUE CANNOT BE REPRODUCED ITH A TEST DRIVE, IT IS INTERMITTENT. DTC P17E1 AND DFCC 9473 ARE STORED IN THE TRANSMISSION MODULE. *JS

[SwankPeRFection]

I would think ALL Audi dealers around the globe would have access to the same database of issues that Audi puts out to them. Hell, there was a recall that happened in Asia for DSG units failing due to similar issues. It almost sounds like you're working with a local mechanic shop rather than an Audi dealership with the lack of knowledge they've got.

[Biggriff]

Thank you for your help guys. The dealer really should be doing more, but here in the UK some just don't care enough. They want your money but after that it's not so good. My experience of Audi and BMW is they are very arrogant. Can't praise my Aston dealer enough though.

[KayS4]

This happens to me all the time in 4th and 5th gear. I'm taking it in to be looked at next week during my 65k and having the brakes, plugs and fluid done too.

[SwankPeRFection]

This happens to me all the time in 4th and 5th gear. I'm taking it in to be looked at next week during my 65k and having the brakes, plugs and fluid done too.

Are you CPO or out of warranty with that much mileage? They might give you the finger and say you have to pay to get it fixed. I would fight them and reference the TSB which should apply to your if it's a 2010. Even some 2011+ cars act wacky sometimes and need sometimes just a software update. For the most part, I think most mech unit replacements took place in 2010-2011 S4's.

[tins5]

What year? Sounds like the mech unit is going out on you. These are similar issues to what users in the US have had and Audi replaced the mech unit under warranty no questions asked. I think you just have a dick Audi dealer you're possibly dealing with. There are TSBs all over the place about DSG shifting issues, etc.

This was NOT the case for me. I have gotten rid of my car recently (for fear if the mechatronics unit going) recently, so I cant say if this is truly the issue or not. I also just missed manual so much!

I had the same exact issue. At first, my dealer didn't say anything about it and said it was normal. Then later I complained to Audi of America, and then they had me bring it in to my dealer and duplicate it for them. I figured out exactly when it would do it, so I was able to duplicate the problem for them. After some research, my dealer told me that it was a software issue and that they would update my software to the newest version. I had version 8, and the latest was version 12. I definitely noticed a difference after they did that.

I think it happens because when you're in manual mode and coasting down to a stop, the car does not always know that it should downshift. So instead of downshifting (which is should), just hangs around 1k rpm in the higher gear, and then when you go to accelerate again, the car just revs up. There are MANY threads on this exact problem. You'll notice that if you downshift manually, this does not happen. That is why I agree that this may be a software issue - with the newer software update (version 12 like i said) - you'll notice that when the car is around 1100 rpm, it will already downshift rather than holding on to the higher gear - therefore the neutral will not happen.

Hope this helps...

[SwankPeRFection]

This was NOT the case for me. I have gotten rid of my car recently (for fear if the mechatronics unit going) recently, so I cant say if this is truly the issue or not. I also just missed manual so much!

I had the same exact issue. At first, my dealer didn't say anything about it and said it was normal. Then later I complained to Audi of America, and then they had me bring it in to my dealer and duplicate it for them. I figured out exactly when it would do it, so I was able to duplicate the problem for them. After some research, my dealer told me that it was a software issue and that they would update my software to the newest version. I had version 8, and the latest was version 12. I definitely noticed a difference after they did that.

I think it happens because when you're in manual mode and coasting down to a stop, the car does not always know that it should downshift. So instead of downshifting (which is should), just hangs around 1k rpm in the higher gear, and then when you go to accelerate again, the car just revs up. There are MANY threads on this exact problem. You'll notice that if you downshift manually, this does not happen. That is why I agree that this may be a software issue - with the newer software update (version 12 like i said) - you'll notice that when the car is around 1100 rpm, it will already downshift rather than holding on to the higher gear - therefore the neutral will not happen.

Hope this helps...

If you're in manual, you should be downshifting at about 2k anyway if it's spirited and definitely not lower than 1500RPM. If you're not doing that, you belong in S or D. Having driven MT you should know this. Why treat a DSG any differently?

Anyway, what B8 did you have before? Color and options?

[tins5]

In my opinion, you treat it differently because during normal driving, because a DSG is still an AUTO and should downshift when necessary (especially since it upshifts when I don't want it to). Honestly, yes you always downshift when driving spiritedly, but not always when you're driving normally.

In all of my manual cars, I actually usually just go into neutral and let the car coast when I'm slowing down and not driving spiritedly. Then downshift after coming out of the turn. Yes, you can downshift when driving DSG in manual mode spiritedly, but are you saying that you should never drive in manual mode if you aren't driving spiritedly?

I had a 2011 S4, Phantom Black Pearl, Sports diff, Nav, B&O, with a Stasis tune. Actually, it's for sale here after trading it in - http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=123966258&listingRecNum=55&criteria=sf1Dir%3DDESC%26mkId%3D20049%26stkTyp%3DU %26mdId%3D21912%26rd%3D200%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId%26zc%3D19701%26rn%3D50%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dpric e%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26rpp %3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1

[SwankPeRFection]

In my opinion, you treat it differently because during normal driving, because a DSG is still an AUTO and should downshift when necessary (especially since it upshifts when I don't want it to). Honestly, yes you always downshift when driving spiritedly, but not always when you're driving normally.

In all of my manual cars, I actually usually just go into neutral and let the car coast when I'm slowing down and not driving spiritedly. Then downshift after coming out of the turn. Yes, you can downshift when driving DSG in manual mode spiritedly, but are you saying that you should never drive in manual mode if you aren't driving spiritedly?

I had a 2011 S4, Phantom Black Pearl, Sports diff, Nav, B&O, with a Stasis tune. Actually, it's for sale here after trading it in - http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=123966258&listingRecNum=55&criteria=sf1Dir%3DDESC%26mkId%3D20049%26stkTyp%3DU %26mdId%3D21912%26rd%3D200%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId%26zc%3D19701%26rn%3D50%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dpric e%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26rpp %3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1

No, what I'm saying is that if you're in manual mode, you upshift and downshift as you should. Don't expect the car to do it for you (you've been spoiled by the auto upshift apparently). Either way, my last car was a manual and when slowing down, I'd blip the throttle and downshift and engine break as part of the slowdown process. It's came naturally and after a while, it wasn't even a conscious effort to do it. I never once shifted to neutral coming up on a turn and then shift into gear to come out of it. If I was to expect a need to drop the RPMs to idle, I'd hold the clutch in and be in the required gear for whatever the next move was, either in second for a turn or whatever. It's how a manual should be driven and honestly, I didn't consider it spirited driving.

The way you drove your S4 in manual tells me that you weren't downshifting as you should have and as it would be required to since the clutch system in the DSG is always pretty much engaged unless it's close to stalling, at which point, you better be in the right gear or it'll try to slip the clutch to keep it from bogging down (what you were experiencing because the gear you were in was too high for the speed you were wanting to start going again at). I think your bad habits of driving manual and not paying attention to how the DSG computer actually drives the gearbox when in auto mode caused some of your issues. Next time you ride in a DSG S4, watch and feel how the gearbox will downshift for you as you start slowing down. Those small nudges that feel like the driving is depressing the break in short jabs from time to time as they're slowing down is actually the engine breaking happening after the downshift that the DSG computer just called for. Really experienced MT drives can do this blip to revmatch/downshift and clutch reengagement without having the occupants notice any sort of engine breaking, especially if they maintain accelerator pressure a bit after the clutch reengagement. Sometimes the DSG does it perfectly, but sometimes (and it totally depends on the accelerator input from the driver) it messes up just a tad bit and you can feel the downshift transition. It's these small nuances that a lot of DSG owners don't understand because they're expecting the damn thing to work like a traditional auto and it doesn't.

One example of a particular maneuver that I do that with an MT wasn't an issue is if I'm crossing a street from a side street and I have to haul ass across it quickly in first and then let off the accel and break quickly, the DSG will have a pretty strong shock until the clutch disengages and it figures out that you're wanting to slow down, so it throws it into the next gear and you're fine, but in reality, the DSG was expecting me to accelerate at full throttle probably through 1st and 2nd and higher. It had no idea that I was just crossing the street super fast so as not to get t-boned by the cars coming. In an MT, I would do this same thing, but as I would end up on the other side of the street, I clutch in and just let the revs die and then throw it in second and clutch out and move on after some break application. Smooth transition... but then again, I know I'm going to do that maneuver, because I'm aware of what I'm doing and what I'm calling for. The DSG computer has no guideline for knowing this. It wasn't programmed to expect it, so you get a harsh shock until the computer goes, "oh crap, the RPMS are high, but he's off the throttle, I need to disengage the clutch and switch gears or maybe ride neutral a bit and see if he decides to slam on the breaks and come to a stop or throttle up again and keep going.

If you understand these sort of guidelines, you'll understand why the DSG is what it is and what you must do to drive it appropriately and also not overreact when it does what may feel to you as incorrect, when in fact, it has no other way to react because it's not a learning computer and has some limitations.

[tins5]

It's not that I never engine brake, I do and I do it just fine. It depends on how aggressive I'm driving or however I feel like driving; but I don't think it's required every time when you're driving manual and slowing down. Someone correct me if I should be every time (off topic though). That's the beauty of manual - you do the thinking [:)]

I'm not necessarily "spoiled" by the automatic upshifts, more annoyed because if you upshift when you should at WOT, then it ends up being too late and then you'll shift twice; therefore I gave up on up shifting the DSG at WOT. Also I can't seem to drive a DSG during normal driving the way I drive a manual, especially when downshifting.. I just feel weird downshifting gear by gear lol - since in manual, I can go from 5th to 3rd if I wanted to. Driving spiritedly is a different story though

I used to engine brake more often until I read a thread that said it's not always necessary and that you may be better off slowing down by coasting because "brake pads are cheaper than a new clutch."

edit: I think that thread was more about DSG driving, I guess I'll start to always downshift/rev match my manual when slowing down for turns [:D]

In the end, I feel the way to fix the OP's problem is to either downshift appropriately, or get his software updated.

[SwankPeRFection]

It's not that I never engine brake, I do and I do it just fine. It depends on how aggressive I'm driving or however I feel like driving; but I don't think it's required every time when you're driving manual and slowing down. Someone correct me if I should be every time (off topic though). That's the beauty of manual - you do the thinking [:)]

I'm not necessarily "spoiled" by the automatic upshifts, more annoyed because if you upshift when you should at WOT, then it ends up being too late and then you'll shift twice; therefore I gave up on up shifting the DSG at WOT. Also I can't seem to drive a DSG during normal driving the way I drive a manual, especially when downshifting.. I just feel weird downshifting gear by gear lol - since in manual, I can go from 5th to 3rd if I wanted to. Driving spiritedly is a different story though

I used to engine brake more often until I read a thread that said it's not always necessary and that you may be better off slowing down by coasting because "brake pads are cheaper than a new clutch."

edit: I think that thread was more about DSG driving, I guess I'll start to always downshift/rev match my manual when slowing down for turns [:D]

In the end, I feel the way to fix the OP's problem is to either downshift appropriately, or get his software updated.

That part is wrong. If you're not riding the clutch and burning it, it won't wear out. When the clutch is fully engaged on the flywheel, whether your accelerating or engine breaking/decelerating, the clutch isn't slipping and you're not wearing it out. Whomever told you otherwise is dead wrong. Also, coasting uses up gas because the engine is actually idling. Engine breaking causes the injectors in the engine to shut off and you end up saving just a bit of fuel, but I don't think it a whole lot to worry about.

Point is this... on my last car, I drove 130k+ miles on the stock clutch and it was tuned. Never had an issue with it. I'm not saying I'm the master of MT driving, but I always got confused stares from my dealership when other guys would come in there with burned out clutches in like 20k worth of miles. I guess people just can't drive.

[Biggriff]

Quick update:

Car went into dealer (again). It's Audi UK who are being a pain. The fault with the gearbox going into neutral couldn't be replicated (big surprise there...not!). The car did however judder in reverse and thump into gear when reverse was selected. They had seen this before and said "mechatronic", so it sounds like we are getting somewhere.

The bummer was that they scratched the wing quite deeply in two places (they did fess up to this immediately) and thankfully as the car was bought from an Aston Martin dealer they are sorting the paint.

Feels like a never ending saga!

[SwankPeRFection]

Wing? You put a wing on your S4? I hate it when dealership screw stuff up.

[Biggriff]

Wing = Fender
Boot = trunk
Etc etc

Can't you guys stick with the language we invented and not try new words? :-)

[SwankPeRFection]

What's a spoiler called?

[camoto]

Wing = Fender
Boot = trunk
Etc etc

Can't you guys stick with the language we invented and not try new words? :-)
As soon as you guys stop adding syllables to the word aluminum! :P

[Biggriff]

What's a spoiler called?

Normally "Derek"' he spoils everything at work!

Update : new clutch packs fitted and mechatronic, plus Aston dealer doing paintwork. Hopefully a happy ending.