H&R OE Springs + stock shocks - shocks longevity? - New owner

[typer100]

Hi! I sold my B8 Avant '09 couple weeks ago for this '11 S4. Thanks to guys... I've already done few things to the car :)
I want to install H&R OE springs, but was curious to know how long (mileage) you guys been running this setup.
After some search, some say the OEM shocks won't last, but since so many are running this setup, it's probably not that bad.

Mods so far...

-Alufelgen SF71 19x9.5 ET42 255/35R19
-windows tints (not on this picture)
-dash tweeters (Audi Symphony really??? in a 60K car...)
-matching fog bulbs

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3zpiHqc7VNY/UhCf_wZjg5I/AAAAAAAABpw/Im9YV03KVsk/w1263-h842-no/IMG_1772_1.jpg

[phillips2024]

about to hit 20k on mine. so far so good

[PitchS4]

People talk about stock shock life being shortened with mild springs but I haven't heard of 1 confirmed case. 10k here no issues.

[Seinsmeld13]

On my GTI they were degraded in short order with a mild drop from Eibach springs. On my last S4 a 2010 I tried Eibach with Koni sports which resulted in a terrible ride. I'm now on Bilstein PSS10's and loving them. If you plan to keep this car go with a quality set of coil overs. There are plenty of posts with people complaining about their dampers wearing early. Very few will admit they have made a mistake. Your car deserves better than $300 springs.

[S-Fore]

You actually bring up 2 points; $300 springs are a big improvement for the handling, especially if you use it as a DD. No one should really be pushing the car on public roads to justify having coils, IMO.. Another perspective, if you plan to track the car every once in a while, then hell yeah. I've had both, and the springs with the full Eurocode treatment is more than sufficient on public roads with a little spirited driving every now & again. This is just my .02, and in the end it's to each's own personal preference.


On my GTI they were degraded in short order with a mild drop from Eibach springs. On my last S4 a 2010 I tried Eibach with Koni sports which resulted in a terrible ride. I'm now on Bilstein PSS10's and loving them. If you plan to keep this car go with a quality set of coil overs. There are plenty of posts with people complaining about their dampers wearing early. Very few will admit they have made a mistake. Your car deserves better than $300 springs.

[droopy1592]

But how much worse is the ride with PSS10s than say H&R OE springs with stock dampers? Should I ball out and get Ohlins dampers?

[aaronz]

But how much worse is the ride with PSS10s than say H&R OE springs with stock dampers? Should I ball out and get Ohlins dampers?

There is another good post in the pss10 (about their longevity), you can have them set up perfectly to your preference for comfort or stiffness.

[BDI]

50k on springs with no problems.

[b6onboost]

Shock degredation occurs so gradually that it is very hard to notice its severity. As the ride slowly degrades you continually get use to it. Its not until you drive a stock car or one with a properly matched suspension that you realize extacty how much your shocks have degraded.

Sure the shock life is shortened, but it still takes years and tens of thousands of miles, before they prematurely wear out.


People talk about stock shock life being shortened with mild springs but I haven't heard of 1 confirmed case. 10k here no issues.

[PitchS4]

Shock degredation occurs so gradually that it is very hard to notice its severity. As the ride slowly degrades you continually get use to it. Its not until you drive a stock car or one with a properly matched suspension that you realize extacty how much your shocks have degraded.

Sure the shock life is shortened, but it still takes years and tens of thousands of miles, before they prematurely wear out.

This is true of ANY shock on ANY car at ALL ride heights. So while I don't disagree, it doesn't prove to me that the OE springs actually wear the shocks faster.

[SwankPeRFection]

Honestly, I think your car looks amazing as it sits right now. The wheel gap is even all around and for some reason that looks better to me than when it's lowered and it chews up the top portion of the gap a bit. I think it looks meaner the way it sits now. That said, it's your car, so whatever you want to do... but I don't think the OE springs drop it enough to matter much to OE shocks. Others have run much lower setups without issues and I've even done it with other cars without any problems... never had to change shocks and never blew any of them out.

BTW, how heavy are your new wheels? Did you ever weigh just one of them to see the weight without a tire on it?

[ASDBS]

Thanks OP!
this question has also came across my mind and slowed me down on dropping the car.

[wwhan]

But how much worse is the ride with PSS10s than say H&R OE springs with stock dampers? Should I ball out and get Ohlins dampers?

The Stasis springs are linear rate that come with the non-adjustable Ohlin dampers. On the street, the ride will be a little firmer than the PSS10 C/O which has progressive springs & adjustable dampers.

[typer100]

Honestly, I think your car looks amazing as it sits right now. The wheel gap is even all around and for some reason that looks better to me than when it's lowered and it chews up the top portion of the gap a bit. I think it looks meaner the way it sits now. That said, it's your car, so whatever you want to do... but I don't think the OE springs drop it enough to matter much to OE shocks. Others have run much lower setups without issues and I've even done it with other cars without any problems... never had to change shocks and never blew any of them out.

BTW, how heavy are your new wheels? Did you ever weigh just one of them to see the weight without a tire on it?

Thanks. The gap is not that bad.


Wheels specs:

Specs - 19x9.5 ET42 5x112 CB66.6
Ball seat lug holes to allow use of your OEM wheel bolts
Wheel Weight - 26lbs
Load rating - 1550lbs
Casting Method - Low pressure cast
Finish type - Powdercoated
Certifications - JWL, VIA and built in a ISO:9002 and TUV certified factory

[bpp]

People talk about stock shock life being shortened with mild springs but I haven't heard of 1 confirmed case. 10k here no issues.
+1
My previous b5S4 has 100K+ miles on it (and still rolling in New England) with Eibach Sport springs and the original oe shocks. My current b8S4 has Eibachs and I don't anticipate any problems. Never heard one case ever of suspension failures brought on by aftermarket springs nor have I heard of one case of the "alleged" sag. .02

[Sudsysul]

Those are handsome wheels... they look like they should have been OEM.

[b6onboost]

I wasn't attempting to prove that lowering springs wear the OEM shocks out faster, that's a fact. I was simply providing an explanation for why so many people very well may have significantly degraded shocks yet claim 'no issues'.

A properly designed suspension pairs shocks and springs based on many factors. When you change the specs of one part you alter the behavior of the others. Lowering springs are shorter and have a higher spring rate. The height difference requires the shock be compressed further, with the valve sitting lower, in its idle state. This reduces its ability to efficiently transfer and absorb motion. At the same time the stiffer spring resists compression which sends more force to the body for the shock to control. Its a situation where you are decreasing the shocks effectiveness while also giving it more work to do. By forcing the shock to work harder, its longevity is compromised. The farther you go off OE spec, the quicker this will happen, but its still takes time.

The harder thing is attempting to quantify the premature wear with an approximate mileage or % in decreased life. Not enough people keep their cars long enough to accurately measure it. And in the end if a mild lowering spring reduces the life from 100k miles to 85k miles, is that even an issue? Probably not.


This is true of ANY shock on ANY car at ALL ride heights. So while I don't disagree, it doesn't prove to me that the OE springs actually wear the shocks faster.

[typer100]

Those are handsome wheels... they look like they should have been OEM.

Thanks. This wheels design is pretty common now. But they are pretty nice yes. The Alufelgen concavity is really nice in real life (9.5" wide").

Avant Garde M310

http://www.oemconcept.com/images/M310%20SMF%201.jpg

VMR V710

http://www.oemconcept.com/images/V710%20HS%201.jpg

Alufelgen SF71

http://www.oemconcept.com/images/SF71%20S.jpg

[Leor604]

I wasn't attempting to prove that lowering springs wear the OEM shocks out faster, that's a fact. I was simply providing an explanation for why so many people very well may have significantly degraded shocks yet claim 'no issues'.

A properly designed suspension pairs shocks and springs based on many factors. When you change the specs of one part you alter the behavior of the others. Lowering springs are shorter and have a higher spring rate. The height difference requires the shock be compressed further, with the valve sitting lower, in its idle state. This reduces its ability to efficiently transfer and absorb motion. At the same time the stiffer spring resists compression which sends more force to the body for the shock to control. Its a situation where you are decreasing the shocks effectiveness while also giving it more work to do. By forcing the shock to work harder, its longevity is compromised. The farther you go off OE spec, the quicker this will happen, but its still takes time.

The harder thing is attempting to quantify the premature wear with an approximate mileage or % in decreased life. Not enough people keep their cars long enough to accurately measure it. And in the end if a mild lowering spring reduces the life from 100k miles to 85k miles, is that even an issue? Probably not.

Sorry, but the mechanical engineer in me has some real issues with some of your statements.

I think everyone would agree that the suspension movement with a stiffer spring is LESS than a stock suspension so, for a given bump, the shock piston moves LESS within the body. I don't see how less movement can result in premature wear. Also, a basic shock absorber is nothing more than a piston with a hole in it moving inside an oil filled cylinder. The "effectiveness" is not determined by the position of the piston in that cylinder. Whether it is at full stretch or full compression, the resistance of the piston moving through the oil is identical. Of course, if the spring is so short (or long) that the shock piston is hitting the mechanical end of its travel, then this another matter. However, the only way this would happen is if you actually altered the range of suspension movement, i.e. cut the bump stops. Simply replacing a stock spring with a shorter, stiffer spring will not change the limits of your suspension travel and will not bottom out the shock.

A simple force vector analysis would suggest your point about "more force to the body of the shock" to be backwards. Imagine the wheel hits a bump and this creates an upward force of 100 lbs at that wheel. The two items that are resisting that force are the shock and the spring, lets say each providing 50 lbs of resistance. Remember, real physics (not internet physics) states that for every action (100 lbs up) there is an equal and opposite reaction (2 x 50 lbs down). Now, if the spring is stiffer and provides 75% of the resistance, the shock need only provide 25% resistance. As springs and shocks work in parallel and not in series, it is impossible to put more force into the spring AND more force into the shock. Going back to your point, if a stiffer spring requires the shock to do MORE work, then a softer spring with greater travel must require the shock to Less work. I don't recall seeing F1 vehicles, arguably the stiffest and shortest travel of any racecar, using massive or multiple shock absorbers. However, just about all off road racers, with very soft springs and extremely long travel have two, three or four shocks at every corner, suggesting that the softer springs put more stress on the shocks. Taking this to the extreme, your argument would suggest that rigid springs (with micro-inches of movement) would wear out the shocks very fast, but soft springs with massive travel would allow the shocks to last forever. Doesn't make sense to me.

Now, none of this means that a stock shock is SUITABLE for stiffer springs and, if the spring rate is significantly increased, it is likely the ride will become bouncy. However, this is a mismatch and not wear. This may be interpreted as "my ride is bouncy so my stiff springs must have worn out my shocks", but if you put the stock springs back in, the shock would perform as well as it did before. Also, does anyone think that Bilstein, Koni etc have some magic materials that are immune to wear? Why would a stiff spring wear out a stock shock, but not wear out an aftermarket shock??? If you replaced your "worn out" stock shocks with brand new shocks with EXACTLY the same damping rate, they will feel just as worn out as the stock shocks. The problem is nobody does this. They replace stock shocks with stiffer shocks and then say the stock shocks were worn out by the springs. It's like going to the track with brand new snow tires, then putting on summer tires and saying "wow, these work better so my snow tires must be worn out". They are not worn out, they are just wrong.

As others have said, there seems to be a lot of internet chatter but not a lot of proof to the stiff springs/worn shocks myth. To really put this to bed, it would require a controlled experiment with one car on stock springs and another on stiffer springs. Drive them both on the same roads for 10k miles and then measure the damping force of the shocks. I would be willing to wager that there would be negligible difference. If I am totally off base here, someone please chime in and give me some logical arguments as to why a stiffer spring will kill a shock absorber. I think this has been repeated so many times in so many forums that it has become internet fact. Not picking on you b6onboost, just trying to do my little part to separate myth from fact.

[Mops@Nemesis]

I've done 3 lowering spring/oem sport shock setups on a4's. No issues at all. I was actually the guy that said don't waste your money on coilovers. I now run H&R coilovers and will never go back. If for no other reason at all, the improved ride quality alone is worth the extra money. I also really enjoy playing with the ride height.

[chillindrdude]

Sorry, but the mechanical engineer in me has some real issues with some of your statements.

I think everyone would agree that the suspension movement with a stiffer spring is LESS than a stock suspension...

+1,

typically with stiffer springs, to maintain similar ride characteristics, requires decrease in compression and increase in rebound damping. and being that OEM shocks don't have to adjustments, this is why some astute folks feel a difference.

optimum is obviously a revalve along with a spring rate change, or matched coilovers.

[PitchS4]

Sorry, but the mechanical engineer in me has some real issues with some of your statements...........

.........just trying to do my little part to separate myth from fact.

[up] Great logic, thanks.

[aaronz]

Great post +1 was a good toilet read for me

[Mops@Nemesis]

Great post +1 was a good toilet read for me

Same here, thanks.


Sent from my iPhone

[Mops@Nemesis]

If anyone needs a set, "marinse" has a set of like new H&R coilovers for $750 IIRC. Good deal!

[lapisia]

This thread has given me a lot to think about! :)

[Mops@Nemesis]

Nah, I made it simple;)


Sent from my iPhone

[b6onboost]

No problem. I appreciate your post. We can agree to disagree, but it simply is not a myth.

Higher spring rates (stiffer) cause rebound to happen quicker with more force applied. This forces the shock to cycle at a higher frequency, generating more heat, wearing the fluid (in a hydraulic damper), breaking down the seals (in a gas damper), at a quicker pace.

As I said I think the more important question is quantifying the accelerated wear. All shocks wear out over time, so how much does a stiffer spring truely affect the process? That I cannot answer, but I am certain that the wear is accelerated.


Not picking on you b6onboost, just trying to do my little part to separate myth from fact.

[SilveR316]

Nah, I made it simple;)


Sent from my iPhone

No, you didn't... lol. [:p] What if you have ADS and want a slight drop?

If I didn't have ADS, I'd be all over some coilovers.

[Mops@Nemesis]

No, you didn't... lol. [:p] What if you have ADS and want a slight drop?

If I didn't have ADS, I'd be all over some coilovers.

I was speaking directly to lapisia regarding offline conversation about those coils:)

KW HAS kit?


Sent from my iPhone

[SilveR316]

I was speaking directly to lapisia regarding offline conversation about those coils:)

KW HAS kit?


Sent from my iPhone

Hmm, never heard of that kit before. Took a look at it and color me impressed. They've managed to make coil overs out of a regular suspension.

However, isn't the major advantage of coilovers the fact that they provide a better ride than using lowering springs on an otherwise stock suspension? As far as I can see, the only advantage that the KW HAS kit has over lowering springs is that you can adjust the height like on a coilover setup.

[Mops@Nemesis]

Dude, that kit rides so well! Dependent upon ADS settings I assume. But I have ridden in two cars on KW. As good if not better than my H&R. Maybe even as smooth as V1's.


Sent from my iPhone

[Pworld]

Put 30k on stock shocks and H&R super sports (way lower than yours, and use way more bump stop). Took shocks off and they were still in good condition.





....YMMV

[SilveR316]

Dude, that kit rides so well! Dependent upon ADS settings I assume. But I have ridden in two cars on KW. As good if not better than my H&R. Maybe even as smooth as V1's.


Sent from my iPhone


Hmm, definitely something to consider.

Do you know if they have fixed the issue with the rear springs being too low? It seems like that is the main complaint. I see some people recommend getting the avant version to get taller/stiffer rear springs.

[Mops@Nemesis]

I do not know so I cannot comment. I feel sure "mxrz" could confirm. He knows these well and runs them.


Sent from my iPhone

[2DR Vette]

Those are handsome wheels... they look like they should have been OEM.

They were- for the BMW M3 with the Competition Package. ;)

[Leor604]

Great post +1 was a good toilet read for me

Haha, glad I could help you get the job done [:D]

[S4morris]

I've had several cars with OEM shocks and aftermarket springs that provided a pretty non aggressive drop. I would think "OE" springs ore the similar are fine with stocks for a while. Obviously coils are going to be better since they are perfectly paired, but I've never had a problem. I think it also depends on the car you're putting them on....a sporty car like the S4 has pretty good stock shocks on it (at least I would think). Dropping a honda accord on stock shocks might be a different story. If you aren't tracking the car I think springs will be just fine for you, and eventually if they do fail, ante up and get new shocks at that point. You'll get 50 different opinions on the matter, but in my opinion it'll be just fine for a while.

[Leor604]

No problem. I appreciate your post. We can agree to disagree, but it simply is not a myth.

Higher spring rates (stiffer) cause rebound to happen quicker with more force applied. This forces the shock to cycle at a higher frequency, generating more heat, wearing the fluid (in a hydraulic damper), breaking down the seals (in a gas damper), at a quicker pace.

As I said I think the more important question is quantifying the accelerated wear. All shocks wear out over time, so how much does a stiffer spring truely affect the process? That I cannot answer, but I am certain that the wear is accelerated.

I thought about the higher frequency and that is certainly not in question. A stiffer spring will cycle at a higher frequency, but the amplitude is also reduced. There was some discussion on another web site I took a look at that basically said wear is a function of piston travel, and that high frequency x low amplitude is equivalent (or very nearly so) to low frequency x high amplitude. Kind of like a short stroke, high revving engine versus a long stroke, low revving engine. Actual piston travel is likely somewhat similar.

Anyway, good debate and likely one that will never be settled.

Cheers.

[ASDBS]

Leo, seeing you are another Vancouverite do you see the drop from OE springs being an issue in the winter here?

[Leor604]

Leo, seeing you are another Vancouverite do you see the drop from OE springs being an issue in the winter here?

Not if the last two winters are any indication! I have dedicated winter wheels/tires and my car has yet to see anything more than a dusting of snow. I am itching to give the quattro system a workout. Maybe this winter.

The front lip on my BMW was lower than the S4 and I went through some of the worst snow we have ever seen here without any problem.

[ASDBS]

Yup I have a dedicated set of 18's for the winter also. Thanks for your input, I may be heading down this route shortly.