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View Full Version : Installed 2.8L 30V Engine, Big Problems!



BKLenny
08-15-2013, 08:54 PM
Okay, I dropped this (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/549769-2-8-30V-Automatic-Pulled-What-Engines-Will-Fit-Back-In)engine into my A4. Also, I did the tranny filter and fluid while I had it apart. Now I have big problems!

I am getting errors codes P0300-P0306. Basically it is missing on all cylinders! It idles rough as hell and it makes a lot of strange noises! It does however, seem to run fine once I get it revved up. Any ideas what could cause this? I have checked for spark and every plug does fire, they are just firing out of order or at the wrong time maybe?

Also, the car seems to lose power and start shaking like crazy as soon as I hit 4th gear. If I manually shift it and never go to third, it seems to be alright, but still have very little power and is slow to respond to the accelerator being pressed. Of course, that could be due to the engine problems, but I don't think so.

There are so many variables here that I don't even know where to start! Any expert help would be greatly appreciated!

bhusted
08-16-2013, 07:23 AM
Sounds like you may have a vacuum leak or possibly a bad MAF. Do you have access to VAG-COM or are you just pulling codes at a parts store? You can test the MAF by simply unplugging it and starting the car. If it runs better with the MAF unplugged, you've probably found your issue.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 07:57 AM
Sounds like you may have a vacuum leak or possibly a bad MAF. Do you have access to VAG-COM or are you just pulling codes at a parts store? You can test the MAF by simply unplugging it and starting the car. If it runs better with the MAF unplugged, you've probably found your issue.
I'll try that, thanks! I actually have some MAF cleaner spray, so I may just pull it off and clean it as well. I do have a VAG-COM and the only other code I am getting is the open circuit on fuel vent connection. Not real worried about that one!

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 09:12 AM
Either the mixture is way off, or the timing is way out. Due to it being RPM related, I'm really leaning toward a timing issue.
I'd like to see fuel trim data from block 032, as well as timing data at an idle from block 093. Maybe a MAF log too.

Try unplugging the MAF and see what happens.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 09:32 AM
I unplugged the MAF and there was no change. It ran the same with or without it connected. Not sure if that is good or not...

I will try to read those blocks in a bit walky. I do not have a registered version of VCDS-Lite though. I have one of the cheap knock off cables and the free software.

bhusted
08-16-2013, 10:29 AM
Sounds like the MAF is okay then. Those measuring blocks would be good to use for diagnostics, but I don't think that they are available with the free version.

Do you know any of the history on this engine? Did you do any maintenance to it before installation (gaskets, timing, etc)? Have you looked over the engine for vacuum leaks? the original braided vacuum hoses dry out and become very brittle. If they have not been replaced, I would do each one as a preventative measure even if it is not the cause of the issue. I think that they are 3.5mm. You can got to a parts store and get an SAE equivalent that will be close enough or order some silicone line from the web.

Take a look at the PCV hoses. They are corrugated plastic and prone to cracking. Leaks in these will also cause a vacuum leak. While the engine is running, remove the oil filler cap and you should notice a change in engine speed. Laying a piece of plastic wrap over the hole should bow in gently with the vacuum on the crank case. If not, there is a leak/blockage in the PCV system.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Sounds like the MAF is okay then. Those measuring blocks would be good to use for diagnostics, but I don't think that they are available with the free version.

Doesn't seem like much of anything is available. I can't program my key fob for remote locking. I can't check the trans temp to be sure I have it filled properly. Can't really read codes either, it keep stopping half way through and telling me I need to register. I don't have a spare $99 though!


Do you know any of the history on this engine? Did you do any maintenance to it before installation (gaskets, timing, etc)? Have you looked over the engine for vacuum leaks? the original braided vacuum hoses dry out and become very brittle. If they have not been replaced, I would do each one as a preventative measure even if it is not the cause of the issue. I think that they are 3.5mm. You can got to a parts store and get an SAE equivalent that will be close enough or order some silicone line from the web.

I do not know the history of the engine. All I know is that it came from an '04 VW and they did a compression test on it. They never heard it run, but they did guarantee it. I did not really do anything to the engine, but it was just a short block, so almost everything came from my engine, except the block, heads and timing belt. I replaced all of the vacuum lines and I did double check them all to be sure they were in the correct places and that none were loose.


Take a look at the PCV hoses. They are corrugated plastic and prone to cracking. Leaks in these will also cause a vacuum leak. While the engine is running, remove the oil filler cap and you should notice a change in engine speed. Laying a piece of plastic wrap over the hole should bow in gently with the vacuum on the crank case. If not, there is a leak/blockage in the PCV system.

Most of the hoses have been replaced with rubber hoses. The two that are attached directly to the pump are the only plastic ones left and they both look good. I did put a piece of vacuum hose on each of the PCV valves before I installed them to the new engine to test them and I could hear them opening. It is fully possible the system is leaking or blocked though. The old engine was plugged nearly solid at the vent below the intake manifold!

bhusted
08-16-2013, 12:10 PM
Doesn't seem like much of anything is available. I can't program my key fob for remote locking. I can't check the trans temp to be sure I have it filled properly. Can't really read codes either, it keep stopping half way through and telling me I need to register. I don't have a spare $99 though.

You should still be able to access some of the measuring blocks with the free version. I just have one of the ebay cables and can still access some of the measuring blocks without registering.


I do not know the history of the engine. All I know is that it came from an '04 VW and they did a compression test on it. They never heard it run, but they did guarantee it. I did not really do anything to the engine, but it was just a short block, so almost everything came from my engine, except the block, heads and timing belt. I replaced all of the vacuum lines and I did double check them all to be sure they were in the correct places and that none were loose.

So you did replace the timing belt and components? Are you sure that you got it in correct time? Did you use the cam lock bar and crank pin? It's not hard to be off by just a little bit.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 12:28 PM
No, I did not touch the block, heads or timing belt. They were left on the short block I bought from the salvage yard. Everything else came from my old motor. I am going to go try to read those blocks now, but the VCDS website clearly states that you cannot read block data with the unregistered tool.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 01:57 PM
No luck reading the blocks. I had another look at all the air hoses on the pump system and there is one that is not connected! I double checked them, so it must have come off while driving. The engine is too hot for me to get in there right now, but it sounds like that could be the problem? As a side note, the engine did change drastically when I removed the oil filler cap, so there must be vacuum, right?

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 02:18 PM
Free version can read (and Log) all blocks up to 025. It will show ALL DTC codes, however it will not decode them all into text for you. But AZ members don't need the descriptions anyway.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 02:24 PM
Nevermind, I just tested it and it works!

I connected the air hose and there is no change, so it's back to the drawing board!

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 02:47 PM
This is all the further I can get with the DTC scan before it errors out and tells me I must register:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Friday, 16 August 2013, 16:46:56.


Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,25,35,37,45,55,56,57,67,75,76 ,77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 078-907-551-ATQ.LBL
Controller: 3B0 907 551 G
Component: 2.8L V6/5V G 0003
Coding: 07251
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 2721789FD6F5
12 Faults Found:
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30: Voltage too Low
P1602 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
18014 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1606 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
16684 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0300 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
16687 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 35-00 - -
16685 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0301 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
16688 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0304 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
17930 - Camshaft Adjustment; Bank 2: Malfunction
P1522 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17551 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1143 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16689 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0305 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
16686 - Cylinder 2: Misfire Detected
P0302 - 35-00 - -
16486 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0102 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16690 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0306 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
Readiness: 0010 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.LBL
Controller: 8D0 927 156 AT
Component: AG5 01V 2.8l5V USA 3132
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 7F7180FF6EE5
2 Faults Found:
18158 - Supply Voltage: too Low
P1750 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
18265 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1857 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8E0-614-111-ABS.LBL
Controller: 8E0 614 111 A
Component: ABS/EDS 5.3 QUATTRO D10
Coding: 0273004284
Shop #: BB 24334
VCID: 1C4B57739FB3
1 Fault Found:
65535 - Internal Control Module Memory Error
00-00 - -

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 02:59 PM
Yeah, that's an Auto-Scan of all modules. We are only interested in your engine codes.

Don't worry about these:
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30: Voltage too Low
18014 - Rough Road Spec Engine Torque ABS-ECU Electrical Malfunction

Ok, we have misfires:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
16687 - Cyl.3 Misfire Detected
16685 - Cyl.1 Misfire Detected
16688 - Cyl.4 Misfire Detected
16689 - Cyl.5 Misfire Detected
16686 - Cyl.2 Misfire Detected
16690 - Cyl.6 Misfire Detected

Probably because of this:
16486 - Mass or Volume Air Flow Circ Low Input
17551 - Load Calculation Cross Check Upper Limit Exceeded

This one is intermittent, but could indicate a timing issue:
17930 - Camshaft Adjustment; Bank 2: Malfunction P1522 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

From the codes, it's pretty hard to tell if we are having a mixture problem or a timing problem. There is really evidence for both.

bhusted
08-16-2013, 03:00 PM
This site is your friend.

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/tech/audi/audi.dtc.table.htm

Edit: Dang! Walky beat me to it.

bhusted
08-16-2013, 03:24 PM
Maybe it's time to pop the timing covers and valve covers to check the timing and eliminate it as candidate. You should only have to remove the top covers on both banks. Rotate the crankshaft (24 mm) so that the mark on the pulley lines up with the cover. Confirm that the large holes on the cam keys are on the inside and point toward each other. You should be able to draw an imaginary straight line through one to the other.

If that part checks out, take a look under the valve covers. I would start with the driver's side as that is were the intermittent error was reported. On the bearing caps adjacent to the chain, you should see two small arrows. The arrows should line up with the mark on the sprockets. There should be 16 links from the exhaust cam to intake cam. If all of that checks out, you can remove timing as a potential issue.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 03:32 PM
It is my understanding that this code: 16486 - Mass or Volume Air Flow Circ Low Input can be ignored if disconnecting the MAF doesn't change anything?

I can't really find anything on the P1143 code. Any ideas?

For the last code, I found this: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17930/P1522

Which really doesn't seem to point to the timing being wrong so much as it points to there being something wrong with the sensor or wiring! I do have spare sensors. Any idea how to test the wiring? Which side is bank 2? cyl 4-6? That sensor should be pretty easy to do!

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 03:34 PM
I wish we could see cam phase angle from VCDS. That way we wouldn't have to take stuff apart to look at the [ridiculous] lack of factory timing marks on these V6's, lol.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 03:38 PM
Maybe it's time to pop the timing covers and valve covers to check the timing and eliminate it as candidate. You should only have to remove the top covers on both banks. Rotate the crankshaft (24 mm) so that the mark on the pulley lines up with the cover. Confirm that the large holes on the cam keys are on the inside and point toward each other. You should be able to draw an imaginary straight line through one to the other.

If that part checks out, take a look under the valve covers. I would start with the driver's side as that is were the intermittent error was reported. On the bearing caps adjacent to the chain, you should see two small arrows. The arrows should line up with the mark on the sprockets. There should be 16 links from the exhaust cam to intake cam. If all of that checks out, you can remove timing as a potential issue.

I did pop the alignment bar on the cams before I installed the engine. They lined up and the crank was at TDC. This does not mean the cams were aligned when they tightened the pulleys of course. There were white marks on the belt and all three pulleys, which is why I checked it to be sure! It is clear to me that the previous owner of the engine had been messing with the timing belt. I have dealt with the timing chain and tensioners, I can check those as well. I would like to avoid pulling the covers though! Any other suggestions?

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 03:46 PM
It is possible that the crank pulley is not accurate. The rubber can twist several degrees, and give an inaccurate reading for TDC. This is why they have a crank lock tool to give you rock solid TDC.

To verify TDC without the crank lock pin, you can put a screwdriver down cylinder 3 (passenger side nearest the firewall). Do it gently. This will give you a visual indication of piston position. Turn crank while watching the screwdriver. TDC will be when the the screwdriver shows absolute peak position.

That method will rule out crank pulley rubber twist as well as any sheared crank cog issues. You will get "real" TDC right from the piston.

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 04:10 PM
I replaced the cam sensor and there is no change. I think I might just contact the salvage yard and see what they say about their guarantee on this motor. I don't think I want to go messing about with the timing and pulleys! Thanks for all the help guys!

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 04:16 PM
It is my understanding that this code: 16486 - Mass or Volume Air Flow Circ Low Input can be ignored if disconnecting the MAF doesn't change anything?

I can't really find anything on the P1143 code. Any ideas?

For the last code, I found this: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17930/P1522

Which really doesn't seem to point to the timing being wrong so much as it points to there being something wrong with the sensor or wiring! I do have spare sensors. Any idea how to test the wiring? Which side is bank 2? cyl 4-6? That sensor should be pretty easy to do!

16486 could have just been caused by you unplugging the MAF. Not sure if the code list you provided was before or after trying that. If it only showed that code AFTER unplugging it: ignore it. If it was there BEFORE, that's important information and you cannot ignore it. Rather, you should check the actual MAF values (log the MAF) to see what kind of values it's giving.

17930 is not really a "circuit" fault. It's a malfunction. So the ECU is requesting timing advance (or retard) from the bank 2 cam adjuster, and it is not seeing the advance that it wants. The cam angle is outside the expected range for whatever mode it is trying to obtain. This could be caused by a number of things: incorrect belt timing, incorrect chain timing, faulty VVT solenoid, broken cam adjuster guides, etc, etc. I think it is more likely to be a mechanical fault than an electrical one. Getting this data (and a log) would really help:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/jonesol1/CamTiming.jpg

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 04:28 PM
That code only appeared after I did the maf test. Actually, all three of those codes appeared after. They were not there earlier today!

Also, I tried to read those blocks and it told me I had to register!

walky_talky20
08-16-2013, 04:35 PM
Way, way, wait: By "all three of those codes appeared after" you mean that previously you did not have the MAF, Load Calculation, or Cam Adjustment codes?

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 04:49 PM
Way, way, wait: By "all three of those codes appeared after" you mean that previously you did not have the MAF, Load Calculation, or Cam Adjustment codes?

That is exacty what I am saying! :-)

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 06:05 PM
So, I used the VAG to clear all the codes. I then took it for a little ride and it seemed to be a bit better. Not great, but there was improvement. Can't say exactly what improved it, but it might have something to do with the fact that I now have absolutely NO POWER STEERING! Is it possible that something with the power steering could have been causing this? Seems unreal, but also seems odd that the car improved at the same time as the power steering going out...

The PS fluid is still at the full line. Not sure what happened!

redline380
08-16-2013, 07:06 PM
no. ps wont affect that. im surprised no one said check your whole ignition system. check all the grounds, all the plug wires, the coils, and the ignition control module. sure sounds like a ignition problem to me.

i'm serious about the grounds. lets think for a while. you just swapped this motor in, right? the first thing you must assume is that you messed up on the install and forgot and plug here or a ground there. ensure all your connections are correct, and move onto the rest of the ignition system. I got a fiver says its spark related

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 07:51 PM
Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the PS pump was nearly seized up, causing drag on the acc belt. Could that be enough to cause a loss of power? Now, the pump has totally let go and I got a bit of power back? Honestly not sure what else could have caused the change!

I swapped the ignition control module for a spare I had. I checked all wires and one was not sparking, so I replaced it and it was sparking after being replaced. The plugs were pulled and all were a reddish brown, totally normal, no build up or carbon anywhere on them!

Which grounds exactly would I be looking for? I honestly cannot remember connecting or disconnecting a ground strap to the engine at all. Also, come to think of it, I am not sure I ever put the nuts on the two engine mounts. I can't remember doing that either.

redline380
08-16-2013, 08:04 PM
ps pump means nothing. disregard it for now

id look mostly into ignition components. just triple check all connections and wires. im not exactly positive how the ignition works on those 30v's, but check the relationship bewteen however the ignition control module acts with the coil packs. on 1.8t's, there is a ground on the ignition portion of the harness. look hard. check for larger grounds around the engine, engine sensors, wires pinched in the bellhousing. i'm 99% your issue is a direct result of the engine swap. it almost always is

BKLenny
08-16-2013, 08:09 PM
The pump will be disregarded. Thanks!

There is a ground of sorts that connects to one of the bolts that holds the ignition control module on to the PS pump frame. That is the only ground I can think of off hand. That is connected, for sure, not a doubt in my mind!

I believe the ignition coils themselves are integrated into the plug wires on the 30V. I do have two sets, minus the one that I found to be not working. I have some doubt about it being the coils though, due to the fact that I am getting misfire on all 6 cylinders!

redline380
08-16-2013, 08:15 PM
I wouldn't think coils either, but you never know. they could be all shot. but like I said, scour the engine bay for missed connections.