B8.5 - Switched tunes from Stasis to APR Stage 2

[Wusty]

So I got the bug a while back about possibly upgrading my tune from Stasis to APR Stage 2 or GIAC Stage 2. The shop owner that does all the mods to my car actually owns 4 cars himself, (2) B8 S4's all modded out, a B7 RS4 & a modded out to the max Porsche that he races. He's got a ton of experience & I've looked up to him for a lot of direction. I ended up upgrading from my Stasis tune to APR Stage 2.

I told the shop owner last week, "let's meet up, me in my Stasis, you in your B8 S4 Stage 2 (each with intake & exhaust) and let's do some pulls, 2nd gear, & 1st gear etc and if your car impresses, I'll leave my car for you to upgrade." So last Friday morning we met up, the first pull we did was from 2nd gear, about 30 MPH start to 70 MPH....instantly his APR Stage 2 car had a car length within like the 3 seconds it takes to get to 70 MPH. I was impressed. Then we did a pull from about 15 MPH to 100 MPH........his car had 2 car lengths on me by the time we hit 100 MPH. Well....that was all I needed to see, I left my car with him and got the upgrade done to APR Stage 2. Ironically, they had a 2003 Porsche Turbo for sale, it has a tune on it and makes about 575 HP [o_o] and they let me take that for the day as my loaner while they were performing the service.

So, my impressions after getting my car back from the upgrade??? When I came from Stock to Stasis, I had to high of expectations and on this go around I mentally did the same thing. Because of my altitude, thinner air etc, I was hoping for a night & day difference with the pulley upgrade which it is not. When I got the Stasis tune I was hopeful for a night & day difference which is was not as well.

My first drive home from picking up the car to be honest I was like "Did this even do anything?". I only drove 10 miles or so, all freeway so didn't get to experience it fully. Also, I had been driving that dang 575 HP tuned Porsche Turbo all day long & pretty heavily [:D]. Honestly, awful thing to do, drive a near 600 HP twin turbo car and then jump right into your 400+ HP car, I felt like I was driving a go cart :-)

The next morning I woke up early eager to get a fresh perspective & drive in my car.......and boom.....I could feel & recognize the difference. The car just pulls harder through each gear. I was hoping for more low end torque feeling which I know it gained but honestly, you really can't feel it that much (butt dyno). You mostly feel it at the 4K+ RPM ranges, kind of like the differences I felt from going stock to the Stasis tune, it's the same type of upgrade jump in performance (Stage 1 to Stage 2) IMHO.

Am I glad I did it? I am. It's fun to be unleashing the full potential of the motor and it does give me that extra "grin" while driving it on a daily basis. Perceptions in the eyes of the beholder, for me, I was hoping for a night & day difference which it is not but I'm now able to recognize the gains and appreciate them. So if you're looking to upgrade from either Stasis or any other Stage 1 tune, don't go into it thinking it's going to be a night & day difference because it won't be but I do feel you will like the outcome and not feel like it was money wasted.

Best of luck guys.

[infinkc]

Curious was you Stasis tune the v2, or older rev?

i recently had a chance to "play" with my co-workers car on the way home, he is a Giac stg2 with DSG flash.

From a 30mph roll, we were pretty much dead even, he started to pull just slightly, but didnt leave me in the dust.

From a dig, it was quite quicker, got about 2 cars on me when we hit 100.

I was thinking the same, if changing my tune at this point would be worth it. For daily driving my car im going to stick with what i have now from this experience.

[Wusty]

Curious was you Stasis tune the v2, or older rev?

i recently had a chance to "play" with my co-workers car on the way home, he is a Giac stg2 with DSG flash.

From a 30mph roll, we were pretty much dead even, he started to pull just slightly, but didnt leave me in the dust.

From a dig, it was quite quicker, got about 2 cars on me when we hit 100.

I was thinking the same, if changing my tune at this point would be worth it. For daily driving my car im going to stick with what i have now from this experience.

Mine was the new v2 tune. Not the older version. From 30 MPH, the APR Stage 2 car pulled on me hard, I was actually shocked.

[jfabes]

it takes 40-50 miles for the ecu to fully adapt after getting the apr tune....some on this board say it can be longer, mine was about 40 miles....apr told me 30 miles minimum.

[kareemcheese]

so I unfortunately was one of those who expected a night and day difference and was quite tragically underwhelmed. I also am not convinced that my tune was done properly which is why I'll be running some logs this upcoming weekend to find out what's going on for sure. I am just theorizing here but I think there may be something up with the v2.2 software... Check out vids on youtube of other apr stage 2 b8s and compare to yours... mine sure as hell doesn't seem as fast the ones in the vids. curious to know your take

[Gweezil]

Subscribed as I have the StaSIS v.2 tune and have flirted with the idea of going APR stage II awaiting stage III. For now lurking, listening and waiting.

[Wusty]

1 thing to keep in mind, the gains from Stage 1 to 2 really aren't huge, for whatever reason I just had this "Almighty Stage 2" thing in my mind like an upgraded pulley was going to make it a rocket no matter what but reality is, it's only a +17hp and +17tq gain. Good gain but its nit huge. Here's the stats from APR B8.5:

278 AWHP - Stock
336 AWHP - APR Stage 1
353 AWHP - APR Stage 2+
+77 AWHP@ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+93 AWHP@ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

Peak Torque
292 AWTQ - Stock
324 AWTQ - APR Stage 1
341 AWTQ - APR Stage 2+
+65 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+79 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

[QuattroRocket]

1 thing to keep in mind, the gains from Stage 1 to 2 really aren't huge, for whatever reason I just had this "Almighty Stage 2" thing in my mind like an upgraded pulley was going to make it a rocket no matter what but reality is, it's only a +17hp and +17tq gain. Good gain but its nit huge. Here's the stats from APR B8.5:

278 AWHP - Stock
336 AWHP - APR Stage 1
353 AWHP - APR Stage 2+
+77 AWHP@ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+93 AWHP@ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

Peak Torque
292 AWTQ - Stock
324 AWTQ - APR Stage 1
341 AWTQ - APR Stage 2+
+65 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+79 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

Granted but if you look at the curves you will see that the power is available down low on the stage 2 setups, thats what the pulley upgrade does. So the numbers dont lie but they dont tell the entire truth either.

[SwankPeRFection]

Granted but if you look at the curves you will see that the power is available down low on the stage 2 setups, thats what the pulley upgrade does. So the numbers dont lie but they dont tell the entire truth either.

A lot of people on here don't understand how a supercharger works and why they don't always feel the same kick in the pants that they do with a turbo when it finally hits positive manifold pressure. The only two things that control how much positive manifold pressure a supercharger will give you is the RPM that it's spinning at and whether the bypass valve is open or closed on it. If the valve is completely closed on it, the supercharger will not bleed off any boost it's creating and the boost level is relative to it's spin rate, which is directly proportional to the RPM of the engine. So, the only way you're going to raise this is if you change the RPM that it spins at. The pulley upgrade effectively causes the supercharger to reach a higher boost level at lower engine RPMs and this is what you gain. Now, sure, it also raises that same boost level throughout the entire rev range, but up top, it's most likely beyond it's efficiency level and even if it's 15PSI compared to 10PSI stock, if the temps of that additional charge is more then the gains probably won't amount to much due to the timing the tune now has to back off to keep the engine from detonating due to the higher intake charge temps, etc.

[jfabes]

A lot of people on here don't understand how a supercharger works and why they don't always feel the same kick in the pants that they do with a turbo when it finally hits positive manifold pressure. The only two things that control how much positive manifold pressure a supercharger will give you is the RPM that it's spinning at and whether the bypass valve is open or closed on it. If the valve is completely closed on it, the supercharger will not bleed off any boost it's creating and the boost level is relative to it's spin rate, which is directly proportional to the RPM of the engine. So, the only way you're going to raise this is if you change the RPM that it spins at. The pulley upgrade effectively causes the supercharger to reach a higher boost level at lower engine RPMs and this is what you gain. Now, sure, it also raises that same boost level throughout the entire rev range, but up top, it's most likely beyond it's efficiency level and even if it's 15PSI compared to 10PSI stock, if the temps of that additional charge is more then the gains probably won't amount to much due to the timing the tune now has to back off to keep the engine from detonating due to the higher intake charge temps, etc.

this thread isn't about superchargers 101 or why/how they are different than a turbo...you can explain your rationale in the threads titled "just moved to a tuned s4 from an sti and underwhelmed" :) your new here, so there are only two things you need to know relative to tuning this car:

1) the stg 1 tune mainly just prevents boost bleeding over 4k rpm
2) the smaller pulley for stg 2 increases boost across the whole rpm range

I don't put much in the numbers, i like the area under the curve, 1/4 mile and 60-130. all the rest is fluff. i agree with the other posters that stg 1 to stg 2 is not night and day, but it does make a difference you can feel, especially around town under 60 mph. that's why i love the pulley. also, its the only other significant power mod you can do except for heaters which cost 5x as much for similar gains or test pipes...both which almost have to be installed professionally.

[CasualObserver]

To clarify Swank perfection pretty much has it.
Altering the supercharger drive ratio with a smaller pulley will make the supercharger flow more air at any RPM the engine happens to be spinning at. Assuming the VE of the motor is unchanged and the bleed is closed it should result in more boost at any RPM, barring any issues with vacuum at the throttle body, blower inlet etc.
However the harsh slap of reality comes in when you realize that the blower's adiabatic efficiency is not the same across all combinations of pressure ratios and mass flow. Generally as the mass flow and boost goes up on a given blower the adiabatic efficiency lowers and charge temperatures rise. You can easily find your knock limit this way.
At the lower RPMs/mass flow the extra boost can be used because the adiabatic efficiency of the blower is still acceptable at that combination of PR and mass flow. As you get into higher RPM situations and try to maintain the same PR the adiabatic efficiency can drop precipitously, and the bleed valve comes into play to avoid creating excessive intake air temps and the knock that comes with them.

[1MORLAP]

IMHO Stage 1 is hardly worth the cost and warranty issues, Stage 2 can be worth it for many. If you are going to do this, skip Stage 1 and go Stage 2 from the start. Stage 3 is very overdue.

[jfabes]

^^^ Good thing you said "humble opinion" since you don't even have a tune according to your sig. So you have this opinion because of what? And fwiw, several of your mods could cause TD1 if your dealer is of the douchey variety.

Casual observer...lmao, seriously? Lots of jargon and big words. See post 10.

[SwankPeRFection]

this thread isn't about superchargers 101 or why/how they are different than a turbo...you can explain your rationale in the threads titled "just moved to a tuned s4 from an sti and underwhelmed" :) your new here, so there are only two things you need to know relative to tuning this car:

1) the stg 1 tune mainly just prevents boost bleeding over 4k rpm
2) the smaller pulley for stg 2 increases boost across the whole rpm range

I don't put much in the numbers, i like the area under the curve, 1/4 mile and 60-130. all the rest is fluff. i agree with the other posters that stg 1 to stg 2 is not night and day, but it does make a difference you can feel, especially around town under 60 mph. that's why i love the pulley. also, its the only other significant power mod you can do except for heaters which cost 5x as much for similar gains or test pipes...both which almost have to be installed professionally.

Don't be an asshole. You don't know me and you don't know what my experience is with cars and aftermarket products for them. Everything that just spilled out of your mouth is based on my registration date "newness". Smart move there asshat. Dial it back and we can go back to being amicable people on a forum. Don't insult me and I won't be ugly back.

[1MORLAP]

^^^ Good thing you said "humble opinion" since you don't even have a tune according to your sig. So you have this opinion because of what? And fwiw, several of your mods could cause TD1 if your dealer is of the douchey variety.

Casual observer...lmao, seriously? Lots of jargon and big words. See post 10.

Based on your sig you don't even have a S4... there are some things I rather keep away from my sig. For example a dead hooker in my trunk. (hypothetical!)

To answer directly, based on my personal first hand experience with APR tunes.

(And yes, these cars take much longer to adjust to a new tune than anything else I have tuned before.)

[jfabes]

^^ my sig is in post 10, i just don't see a need to keep posting it every time i reply to a thread. and okay, gotcha re the tune.

[jfabes]

Don't be an asshole. You don't know me and you don't know what my experience is with cars and aftermarket products for them. Everything that just spilled out of your mouth is based on my registration date "newness". Smart move there asshat. Dial it back and we can go back to being amicable people on a forum. Don't insult me and I won't be ugly back.

but i'm so good at it according to my wife. its a gift, really....it's like, sometimes, i just can't control it.

relax boss, i used a smiley face. and i didn't say you're full of sh!t or that you didn't know what your talking about, i just said save the lecture for when someone asks. actually, if you think about it, by saying your response was "superchargers 101", that's a compliment ;) i see your spreading your wealth of knowledge over in the giac nightmare thread too....good for you!

[Arin@APR]

Awesome! Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Gweezil]

Don't be an asshole. You don't know me and you don't know what my experience is with cars and aftermarket products for them. Everything that just spilled out of your mouth is based on my registration date "newness". Smart move there asshat. Dial it back and we can go back to being amicable people on a forum. Don't insult me and I won't be ugly back.

You're a member for 24 hrs and calling others an Asshole? Enjoy your stay!

ASSHOLE. I feel better now.

[Wusty]

UPDATE:

It's been 4 days since the pulley & tune. I haven't been able to drive much, I've put about 80+ miles on it since the tune and today really, for the first time it was BEAST! So much stronger of a pull. I'm impressed for sure. Keep laughing while I'm driving it. So FYI to all future peeps who upgrade to Stage 2, give it some mileage as people have said, the first couple of days it won't feel that different but when it kicks in it's awesome. I'm stoked!

[rs4dreams]

UPDATE:

It's been 4 days since the pulley & tune. I haven't been able to drive much, I've put about 80+ miles on it since the tune and today really, for the first time it was BEAST! So much stronger of a pull. I'm impressed for sure. Keep laughing while I'm driving it. So FYI to all future peeps who upgrade to Stage 2, give it some mileage as people have said, the first couple of days it won't feel that different but when it kicks in it's awesome. I'm stoked!

How's the whine from the EC intake? Noticeably more than stock or basically the same? I've only ever heard the Roc Euro in person and I know it's supposed to be much quieter.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the tune, I'm going stage 2 as soon as my backordered pulley arrives!

[gendry]

I have the EC intake but no other powertrain mods (just sways/links/AK as powertain). As far as I can tell, the SC whine is between 0-10% louder, def no more. It may be exactly the same, I just am thinking about it now.

Butt dyno tells me the throttle is more responsive and quicker to kick in.

[NWS4Guy]

To be honest, the reason a turbo "feels" (which is a highly subjective thing) to pull harder and have more power when they may not show that on paper, is that there is the inherent turbo lag - so you mas the pedal and are expecting the instant rush, but there is that slight hesitation then it kicks in as exhaust gases have built enough to spool the turbo up. The lag then rush makes it feel harder, rather than the linear, steadily increasing boost and pull from a supercharger which has a much smaller lag if at all perceptible.

[b6onboost]

Most modern oem turbocharged motors have little discernable lag and many of them, like Audi's 2.0T/4.0T, hit peak boost at a mere 1500rpm. I don't really feel these turbo motors feel quicker due to 'lag', but rather the fact that you don't have to rev them to make torque.


To be honest, the reason a turbo "feels" (which is a highly subjective thing) to pull harder and have more power when they may not show that on paper, is that there is the inherent turbo lag - so you mas the pedal and are expecting the instant rush, but there is that slight hesitation then it kicks in as exhaust gases have built enough to spool the turbo up. The lag then rush makes it feel harder, rather than the linear, steadily increasing boost and pull from a supercharger which has a much smaller lag if at all perceptible.

[NWS4Guy]

I believe he was comparing it to a 11 year old modified turbo P-car, they definitely have lag.

[SwankPeRFection]

Most modern oem turbocharged motors have little discernable lag and many of them, like Audi's 2.0T/4.0T, hit peak boost at a mere 1500rpm. I don't really feel these turbo motors feel quicker due to 'lag', but rather the fact that you don't have to rev them to make torque.

And while it's true that you can have a lagless turbo car by making sure the turbo is properly sized for the displacement of the motor, one sacrifice of less or no lag is no top end power. A smaller turbo may spool by 1500RPM, but it'll also be out of steam by 5k most likely. Most 2.0L engines with turbos that can put some power down will have a slightly higher spool closer to 3k+ and last closer to redline. It all depends on what the manufacturer wants to do with it. The nice part of supercharging is that there is zero lag between negative manifold pressure and positive manifold pressure. The second the throttle opens enough to close the bypass valve, you have positive pressure (i.e. boost) and that then increases based on RPM of motor as the revs climb. Generally speaking, you get about 80-85% of full boost out of a roots charger way before redline and only climbs just a bit more towards it as the rpms of the charger increase (that is unless the manufacturer opens up the bypass up top like Audi does).

A good concept to think of is if you took any NA motor and dyno'd it to see the power curves, once supercharged, those curves would simply move up some on the graph, but the curves will very closely follow those of the original NA pull. On turbo cars, the torque increase is bumped up more and doesn't flow the natural NA increase of the NA engine. Of course, bore and stroke also plays a big role in what those curves look like too.

[B8_Jim]

Most modern oem turbocharged motors have little discernable lag and many of them, like Audi's 2.0T/4.0T, hit peak boost at a mere 1500rpm. I don't really feel these turbo motors feel quicker due to 'lag', but rather the fact that you don't have to rev them to make torque.

The 2.0T does not hit peak boost at 1500 rpm ... except perhaps in 5th gear or on a dyno where you can hold the RPM low and give the turbo time to spool up. My '09 A4 2.0T still had a fair amount of lag (somewhere there is a post of my logs...) - I'm thinking a auto trans will help hide it, but a with a manual it's still noticeable. Not saying it's "bad" but it's very much still noticeable. The newer turbos are for sure leaps and bounds better than they used to be (even my '01 1.8T).

I agree with NWS4Guy - based on my 2.0T - esp with APR 93 S1 file loaded - the quick rise in torque when the turbo spooled made the car feel quicker than it was.

I wish I hadn't had issues with my A4 late in the warranty period, or I'd be stage 2 on my S5 now... ;)

[BzzzBom]

I upgraded to APR Stage 2 today but have only put on about 25 miles. I do notice more low RPM torque than Stage 1. It is not night and day yet. I'll report back after 50 more miles.

[TTRU]

UPDATE:

It's been 4 days since the pulley & tune. I haven't been able to drive much, I've put about 80+ miles on it since the tune and today really, for the first time it was BEAST! So much stronger of a pull. I'm impressed for sure. Keep laughing while I'm driving it. So FYI to all future peeps who upgrade to Stage 2, give it some mileage as people have said, the first couple of days it won't feel that different but when it kicks in it's awesome. I'm stoked!

^^^Rebate received from APR^^^^

Kidding... Kidding [;)]

[Wusty]

My car feels so much stronger everyday. I'm really happy I did this upgrade. Absolutely worth it.

[S4 00 2.7]

UPDATE:

It's been 4 days since the pulley & tune. I haven't been able to drive much, I've put about 80+ miles on it since the tune and today really, for the first time it was BEAST! So much stronger of a pull. I'm impressed for sure. Keep laughing while I'm driving it. So FYI to all future peeps who upgrade to Stage 2, give it some mileage as people have said, the first couple of days it won't feel that different but when it kicks in it's awesome. I'm stoked!

Nice, congrats on the new power.

As said earlier, it may be a wiser move going straight to stage 2 and just skipping stage 1.

[imola02]

I recently went stage 2 APR about 3 weeks ago. The car seems to run a bit stronger as time goes on. As others have send the low end torque is nice and noticeable. I have been very impressed with how smooth it is. At times it is deceiving until you look down at the speedo

[leetjon00]

Just coming across this thread now -- any updates from the OP or anyone else that went from Stage 1 to Stage 2? I too have a stasis tune and have been contemplating APR stage 2. If I could do it all over again, I would have just gone directly to stage 2 with APR, but I was timid about TD1 issues at the time...

[Wusty]

Just coming across this thread now -- any updates from the OP or anyone else that went from Stage 1 to Stage 2? I too have a stasis tune and have been contemplating APR stage 2. If I could do it all over again, I would have just gone directly to stage 2 with APR, but I was timid about TD1 issues at the time...

I'm still glad I did it. Since you're Stage 1 Stasis already, as you know, that tune cost will just 100% be thrown down the drain. With the APR power play, you'll be in it about $1800-$1900 all in for the APR Stage 2. I would still highly recommend it. Once the tunes done, give it 1 week for ECU adaption and I'm telling you, you'll love it!

[The_Transporter]

UPDATE:

It's been 4 days since the pulley & tune. I haven't been able to drive much, I've put about 80+ miles on it since the tune and today really, for the first time it was BEAST! So much stronger of a pull. I'm impressed for sure. Keep laughing while I'm driving it. So FYI to all future peeps who upgrade to Stage 2, give it some mileage as people have said, the first couple of days it won't feel that different but when it kicks in it's awesome. I'm stoked!

THIS^^^^^^^
Took my C6 more than 50miles before it really transformed! I thought something was wrong at first!
One random morning headed out and floored it from a stoplight and holy neck-snap! The fun had begun...

[BzzzBom]

I was hesitant at first but made the change from GIAC Stage 1 to APR Stage 2. I am 100% satisfied with my decision.

[D-Press]

I'm still glad I did it. Since you're Stage 1 Stasis already, as you know, that tune cost will just 100% be thrown down the drain. With the APR power play, you'll be in it about $1800-$1900 all in for the APR Stage 2. I would still highly recommend it. Once the tunes done, give it 1 week for ECU adaption and I'm telling you, you'll love it!

I thought the APR Power Play was 1300$ tune stage 2 & pulley included? What would justify the 500$+ difference other than 4hrs of labor? (estimate of labor from my shop)

[Wusty]

I thought the APR Power Play was 1300$ tune stage 2 & pulley included? What would justify the 500$+ difference other than 4hrs of labor? (estimate of labor from my shop)

I think it is around $1,300 for the Power Play tune & pulley, then the install labor was like $300-$400 I think, then tax was like $100 or so. FYI, the stage 2 upgrade from Stasis is 100% worth it, it's awesome.

[Info@EuroCode]

We have been doing power play upgrades all week. General concensus with our customers is they appreciate the flexibility of APR's direct port flashing, server based dealer network and the ease of being flashed back to stock at their request.

[D-Press]

We have been doing power play upgrades all week. General concensus with our customers is they appreciate the flexibility of APR's direct port flashing, server based dealer network and the ease of being flashed back to stock at their request.

I am about to pull the trigger on this now and I just want to make sure I understand all the steps. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So I send the car to the shop, they check if I have a competitor tune by plugging the VAG COM?

After confirmation, I pay 1300$ for the pulley & tune and the labor cost to install the pulley. How long does it takes to install the pulley??

Also, no need to pull out the ECU to flash over the competitor tune right?

[2871rgti]

To the OP, have you have any issues with the Apr flash after starting your car? I have read that that since the warm up procedure is disabled with the Apr tune, some have found that an epc light appears within the first few minutes of startup. I'm just curious if you have had any symptoms.

Thanks