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View Full Version : K04 file giac vs united motosport



gangfer
04-24-2013, 04:37 PM
Alright before everyone start flaming. I did some research on this but i got a little conflicting answers or opinion from different people search engines. Anyway just installed a bw k04-15 on my narrowband 2000 b5 1.8t quattro 5spd. Trying to see what people would recommend on file. Here is the current set up

2000 b5 1.8t 5spd ATW
Ecu#4B0-906-018P (narrowband)
BW K04-15
3" 034 test pipe
2.75 nuespeed dp/exhaust all the way back
42 draft design 02 sensor spacer
Apikol SMIC
APR turbo inlet hose
2.0T coilpack conversion
Tt225 N75

Just trying to see what people would recommend. Or any advices. Btw its a daily driver so im not trying to go super crazy

Thanks in advance.

gangfer
04-24-2013, 07:12 PM
Bump

Operator
04-24-2013, 07:16 PM
Will the UM tune be custom?

gangfer
04-24-2013, 07:52 PM
Yes, they have a tune for my car
Stage 2
http://www.unitedmotorsport.net/performance-software/audi-performance-software/audi-00-01-a4-tt-narrowband-me7-20v-1-8t-performance-software/

Also cat delete and secondary air delete is an option.

Operator
04-24-2013, 08:05 PM
I'd go with UM as you have the possibility of having them refine the tune for your car, as they also do alot of custom tuning.

zandrew
04-24-2013, 08:15 PM
For a bit more Maestro might be a better option. You get multiple tunes from them that can be fine tuned by you or anyone. If later on you want more and change the setup then this is the best bang for the buck. If you have no intention of ever changing the K04 then either the Giac or united will be fine.

Be forewarned though that Maestro is not the most user friendly and it does not come with a manual or anything. If you don't piss half the forum off you will get help with any issues that might arise with it.

rockersteady
04-25-2013, 01:12 AM
there are no atw tunes by maestro,
boy you really researched maestro well before buying it.

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 01:19 AM
Alright before everyone start flaming. I did some research on this but i got a little conflicting answers or opinion from different people search engines. Anyway just installed a bw k04-15 on my narrowband 2000 b5 1.8t quattro 5spd. Trying to see what people would recommend on file. Here is the current set up

2000 b5 1.8t 5spd ATW
Ecu#4B0-906-018P (narrowband)
BW K04-15
3" 034 test pipe
2.75 nuespeed dp/exhaust all the way back
42 draft design 02 sensor spacer
Apikol SMIC
APR turbo inlet hose
2.0T coilpack conversion
Tt225 N75

Just trying to see what people would recommend. Or any advices. Btw its a daily driver so im not trying to go super crazy

Thanks in advance.

You need injectors. Without them, you're going to be severely limited.

viceprp
04-25-2013, 01:53 AM
there are no atw tunes by maestro,
boy you really researched maestro well before buying it.

True, but you can got wideband for ~$300.


You need injectors. Without them, you're going to be severely limited

Not on GIAC tune. The PC-16 tune from 97-99 runs a 3bar FPR, '00 J31 runs 5bar FPR, and '01 Hammer file runs 380cc & stock FPR.

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 03:09 AM
Log injector duty cycles on an ATW even on a stock turbo at stage 2 levels (17psi). Your injectors are past 100 percent duty cycle by 4500rpm. With a k04, you will run terribly lean and be forced to taper boost dramatically. Without injectors you can't take advantage of the larger turbocharger. Why get a k04 if you have to run at k03 boost levels?

I've seen more logs than I can count. For reference, please see the attached screenshots. They're from an 018P that I logged (yesterday) with a k04. Stock injectors, 18psi boost. See what happens around 4750rpm? The run was aborted for safety reasons. Care to guess how long that engine would have lasted?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2q1uexj.jpg

And FYI, if you'd ever looked at a higher boost stage 1/2 file (and understood what was happening) you'd be frightened at how dangerous they are on stock injectors. Just because it works (barely on a street car that never sees sustained high RPM WOT) doesn't mean it's ideal. Take that same car to the track, you'll be melting pistons within a lap.

Look what happens with that same car when we put PROPER fueling in (440cc green giants and a TT/S3 MAF):

http://i38.tinypic.com/2dtatky.jpg

Now that looks much safer! The car gets the fuel it wants, no more insane duty cycles, and the best part? It runs properly. You can go WOT all day long without fear of damage.

In short, get real fueling. Injectors are a MUST for a proper k04 file.

Believer
04-25-2013, 06:50 AM
Log injector duty cycles on an ATW even on a stock turbo at stage 2 levels (17psi). Your injectors are past 100 percent duty cycle by 4500rpm. With a k04, you will run terribly lean and be forced to taper boost dramatically. Without injectors you can't take advantage of the larger turbocharger. Why get a k04 if you have to run at k03 boost levels?

I've seen more logs than I can count. For reference, please see the attached screenshots. They're from an 018P that I logged (yesterday) with a k04. Stock injectors, 18psi boost. See what happens around 4750rpm? The run was aborted for safety reasons. Care to guess how long that engine would have lasted?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2q1uexj.jpg

And FYI, if you'd ever looked at a higher boost stage 1/2 file (and understood what was happening) you'd be frightened at how dangerous they are on stock injectors. Just because it works (barely on a street car that never sees sustained high RPM WOT) doesn't mean it's ideal. Take that same car to the track, you'll be melting pistons within a lap.

Look what happens with that same car when we put PROPER fueling in (440cc green giants and a TT/S3 MAF):

http://i38.tinypic.com/2dtatky.jpg

Now that looks much safer! The car gets the fuel it wants, no more insane duty cycles, and the best part? It runs properly. You can go WOT all day long without fear of damage.

In short, get real fueling. Injectors are a MUST for a proper k04 file.

You mention a stock turbo at 17 psi pushing the injectors past 100%. Is this applicable to a 17 psi stage 1 tune on an AEB?

zandrew
04-25-2013, 07:14 AM
there are no atw tunes by maestro,
boy you really researched maestro well before buying it.

I don't have a ATW. I have a AEB. It smy understanding that swapping over to the wideband is pretty common and since he is already DBW it should be far less complicated then my DBC.

In all honesty I hate Maestro but not for what it offers. The tunes that is offered are the same as his off the shelf tunes which makes it a considerably value. My issue has been customer service and or the lack there of.

QuattroGinger
04-25-2013, 08:07 AM
i say go wideband first. i just went with UM. waiting on ECU to be tuned now. Jeff was on vacation last week. hoping i have it by next week to put in. with that setup just get some nice Genesis 415cc injectors. thats what im doing.

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 08:55 AM
Log injector duty cycles on an ATW even on a stock turbo at stage 2 levels (17psi). Your injectors are past 100 percent duty cycle by 4500rpm. With a k04, you will run terribly lean and be forced to taper boost dramatically. Without injectors you can't take advantage of the larger turbocharger. Why get a k04 if you have to run at k03 boost levels?

I've seen more logs than I can count. For reference, please see the attached screenshots. They're from an 018P that I logged (yesterday) with a k04. Stock injectors, 18psi boost. See what happens around 4750rpm? The run was aborted for safety reasons. Care to guess how long that engine would have lasted?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2q1uexj.jpg

And FYI, if you'd ever looked at a higher boost stage 1/2 file (and understood what was happening) you'd be frightened at how dangerous they are on stock injectors. Just because it works (barely on a street car that never sees sustained high RPM WOT) doesn't mean it's ideal. Take that same car to the track, you'll be melting pistons within a lap.

Look what happens with that same car when we put PROPER fueling in (440cc green giants and a TT/S3 MAF):

http://i38.tinypic.com/2dtatky.jpg

Now that looks much safer! The car gets the fuel it wants, no more insane duty cycles, and the best part? It runs properly. You can go WOT all day long without fear of damage.

In short, get real fueling. Injectors are a MUST for a proper k04 file.


Did the AFR lean out? If not then the injectors weren't maxed out yet. The duty cycle log readings don't mean anything without a AFR reading to go with them.

Funny thing is on stock ATW injectors, stock 4 bar fpr and a stock K03 pushing 20psi on race gas I was able to make 200whp which is more then most make with a k04-15. On my setup the injectors were not max out yet because my AFR was always were it needed to be.

Mad Cow
04-25-2013, 09:08 AM
True, but you can got wideband for ~$300.


I spent around $100 to convert my ATW to wideband, including a brand new sensor, mind you I did pick up an ECU for $20. You could definitely do it for under $200. The problem with this conversion is you'll need a custom tune, there are no OTS tunes that remove VVT AFAIK. Adding VVT isn't hard luckily, all you need is an AWM intake cam and VVT tensioner.

QuattroGinger
04-25-2013, 09:27 AM
i have a guy who sells me CH boxes for $100 or so. let me know if you go this route. dont mind helping you out

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 09:33 AM
You mention a stock turbo at 17 psi pushing the injectors past 100%. Is this applicable to a 17 psi stage 1 tune on an AEB?

This is especially true on an AEB. Those injectors are TINY compared to the later models. You'd have to do some datalogging to know for sure.



Did the AFR lean out? If not then the injectors weren't maxed out yet. The duty cycle log readings don't mean anything without a AFR reading to go with them.

Funny thing is on stock ATW injectors, stock 4 bar fpr and a stock K03 pushing 20psi on race gas I was able to make 200whp which is more then most make with a k04-15. On my setup the injectors were not max out yet because my AFR was always were it needed to be.

Trust me, the injectors were maxed. Requested AFR was 11.5, actual was climbing past 18 when the run was aborted. Had there not been a wideband, and I not been logging noone would have been the wiser. This truly is a case of "ignorance is bliss". I assume you're using a wideband when referencing your AFR, not the stock narrowband sensor? The point of my post wasn't "can it be done", but rather "is it optimal, and is it safe". Anything more than a conservative stage 1 should have a fueling component. Most cars are maxing the stock injectors on k03's. The OP was talking about getting a stage 2 on a k04 on stock fueling, to which I replied it won't be optimal.

Believer
04-25-2013, 09:42 AM
This is especially true on an AEB. Those injectors are TINY compared to the later models. You'd have to do some datalogging to know for sure.

Forgive my persistence.. On a stage 1 file, stock turbo, is it as simple as purchasing a larger injector and swapping them out? Or is there more involved with the tuning, etc?

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 10:03 AM
Forgive my persistence.. On a stage 1 file, stock turbo, is it as simple as purchasing a larger injector and swapping them out? Or is there more involved with the tuning, etc?

Definitely need to adjust the tune for the injectors :) It's a shame more tuners don't do AEB.

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 11:02 AM
This is especially true on an AEB. Those injectors are TINY compared to the later models. You'd have to do some datalogging to know for sure.




Trust me, the injectors were maxed. Requested AFR was 11.5, actual was climbing past 18 when the run was aborted. Had there not been a wideband, and I not been logging noone would have been the wiser. This truly is a case of "ignorance is bliss". I assume you're using a wideband when referencing your AFR, not the stock narrowband sensor? The point of my post wasn't "can it be done", but rather "is it optimal, and is it safe". Anything more than a conservative stage 1 should have a fueling component. Most cars are maxing the stock injectors on k03's. The OP was talking about getting a stage 2 on a k04 on stock fueling, to which I replied it won't be optimal.

Even if I had a wideband gauge on the car at the time the AFR would have been richer then 12.5:1, the narrow band readings were even showing it above that point. I had a EGT gauge on the car during that time and the EGT's were also right where they needed to be. I pushed that setup for over a year with zero issues and no damage to the engine or turbo. Do you think any of that would be possible if the injectors were maxed out and the car was running super lean?

Sure going with larger injectors will give more head room for fuel but isn't exactly needed and that has been proven for over 10 years now with tuners pushing the limits of the K03 and K04 on the stock fuel injectors.


So where is this plot showing the AFR going to 18:1?

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 11:30 AM
So where is this plot showing the AFR going to 18:1?

Wideband wasn't being logged by my computer at the time, rather my handheld. As for stating IDC is irrelevant, that's just foolish.


I pushed that setup for over a year with zero issues and no damage to the engine or turbo.

The point wasn't CAN it be done, but rather is it IDEAL. There are a lot of people that have smoked for years and not gotten cancer. Your logic is flawed. Try running a car at WOT for an extended amount of time without a proper fueling setup. It just so happens the roads and driving conditions in NA are conducive to masking the inadequacies of shit setups.


Sure going with larger injectors will give more head room for fuel but isn't exactly needed and that has been proven for over 10 years now with tuners pushing the limits of the K03 and K04 on the stock fuel injectors.

You'd be surprised at the shoddy methods and hacks these "tuners" use. I guess they're "advancing the platform". If your injectors are maxed you're limited with what you can (safely) do. Stepping up to a proper fueling system allows you to get more out of your setup. If you re-read my post, you'll see I mention "proper" and "optimum". I never said it can't be done, but rather doing it the right way yields better results.

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 12:38 PM
You'd be surprised at the shoddy methods and hacks these "tuners" use. I guess they're "advancing the platform". If your injectors are maxed you're limited with what you can (safely) do. Stepping up to a proper fueling system allows you to get more out of your setup. If you re-read my post, you'll see I mention "proper" and "optimum". I never said it can't be done, but rather doing it the right way yields better results.


Sure going larger injectors is an option but only if the car is being custom tuned. For people that are running OTS tunes they are stuck running what the tune is designed for. Throwing larger injectors in on a OTS tune isn't going to do anything but make the car run bad.

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 01:02 PM
Sure going larger injectors is an option but only if the car is being custom tuned. For people that are running OTS tunes they are stuck running what the tune is designed for. Throwing larger injectors in on a OTS tune isn't going to do anything but make the car run bad.

I agree, but in this instance we're talking about a guy that doesn't yet have a tune, and is considering a custom setup. He has the perfect opportunity to do things right. Why not take advantage of it?

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 02:47 PM
I agree, but in this instance we're talking about a guy that doesn't yet have a tune, and is considering a custom setup. He has the perfect opportunity to do things right. Why not take advantage of it?

Then he needs to talk to his tuner to find out what size injectors to run. He does not want to buy just any size before even picking a tuner.

gangfer
04-25-2013, 03:42 PM
You need injectors. Without them, you're going to be severely limited.
I do have a 440cc injectors and vr6 maf reay to go. Lol the only problem is UM only in portland and im seattle. Haha i guess trying to see what people are most happy with.

ddillenger
04-25-2013, 04:47 PM
Do you have a knock-off vag-com cable?

Believer
04-25-2013, 06:47 PM
I do have a 440cc injectors and vr6 maf reay to go. Lol the only problem is UM only in portland and im seattle. Haha i guess trying to see what people are most happy with.

I know that on UM's website they have a dealer locator. I've only searched areas local to myself (Jersey) but there may be a dealer close to you also.

lucaq
04-26-2013, 11:17 AM
Alright before everyone start flaming. I did some research on this but i got a little conflicting answers or opinion from different people search engines. Anyway just installed a bw k04-15 on my narrowband 2000 b5 1.8t quattro 5spd. Trying to see what people would recommend on file. Here is the current set up

2000 b5 1.8t 5spd ATW
Ecu#4B0-906-018P (narrowband)
BW K04-15
3" 034 test pipe
2.75 nuespeed dp/exhaust all the way back
42 draft design 02 sensor spacer
Apikol SMIC
APR turbo inlet hose
2.0T coilpack conversion
Tt225 N75


This looks very similar to my setup. I ended up getting GIAC flash (about a year ago, not j31, but their new flashable k04 program), bosch motorsports 5 bar fpr, stock n75, 034 HFC instead of a test pipe and I don't ever go over 19lbs. It always pulls back from 19 quickly. Now after reading this thread, I wonder if fueling is the limitation. Not sure where to go from here or even if I want to, I have a B6 that hits 16 lbs on a stock setup (wideband and k03s, I know) on stage 1 REVO. I am half-way tempted to swap turbos and cats between the cars and sell the B5 and get another b6 (i totally think that a k03s can keep up with that GIAC k04 software for the ATW), I am disinclined to do the wideband conversion and injectors because of the cost and effort, even though I know it is the only way to reach the next level. I really should just drive the b5 until it dies just as it sits now...

gangfer
04-28-2013, 05:19 PM
This looks very similar to my setup. I ended up getting GIAC flash (about a year ago, not j31, but their new flashable k04 program), bosch motorsports 5 bar fpr, stock n75, 034 HFC instead of a test pipe and I don't ever go over 19lbs. It always pulls back from 19 quickly. Now after reading this thread, I wonder if fueling is the limitation. Not sure where to go from here or even if I want to, I have a B6 that hits 16 lbs on a stock setup (wideband and k03s, I know) on stage 1 REVO. I am half-way tempted to swap turbos and cats between the cars and sell the B5 and get another b6 (i totally think that a k03s can keep up with that GIAC k04 software for the ATW), I am disinclined to do the wideband conversion and injectors because of the cost and effort, even though I know it is the only way to reach the next level. I really should just drive the b5 until it dies just as it sits now...

well i decided to drive to portland OR. Joey @Double J motorwerks did the UM tune. shotout to them very good customer service and knowledgeable. So far so good. smooth and really woke up the car. also shotout to Jeff Atwood @UM that guy is god of vw and Audi tunes

gangfer
04-28-2013, 05:21 PM
stage 2 UM 440c injectors, vr6maf 2, and 3bar fpr

c0r3y.af
04-29-2013, 06:06 AM
I've been running my UM tune for a few months now and it runs great, however, if I had to do it all again I probably would've gone elsewhere. They are almost impossible to get a hold off (phone, e-mail, facebook, etc) and are not willing to do any custom tuning or tweaking on my vehicle. To get a response back, I had to call and leave multiple messages, e-mail multiple times, spam their facebook page, try their contact form on their website, and wait a month for an e-mail back. This happened more than once.

Two thumbs up for a smooth running tune, but two thumbs down for customer service.

QuattroGinger
04-29-2013, 07:22 AM
I've been running my UM tune for a few months now and it runs great, however, if I had to do it all again I probably would've gone elsewhere. They are almost impossible to get a hold off (phone, e-mail, facebook, etc) and are not willing to do any custom tuning or tweaking on my vehicle. To get a response back, I had to call and leave multiple messages, e-mail multiple times, spam their facebook page, try their contact form on their website, and wait a month for an e-mail back. This happened more than once.

Two thumbs up for a smooth running tune, but two thumbs down for customer service.

really? i call and if they don't answer they call back my work phone and say they had a missed call from this number. they responded to me via, emails, FB, and phone. they have my ECU now. waiting for tune. i had that problem with J-Fonz, they just finally got back to me from a month ago. i told them i was forced to go to another tuner.

c0r3y.af
04-29-2013, 07:45 AM
really? i call and if they don't answer they call back my work phone and say they had a missed call from this number. they responded to me via, emails, FB, and phone. they have my ECU now. waiting for tune. i had that problem with J-Fonz, they just finally got back to me from a month ago. i told them i was forced to go to another tuner.

Maybe it's just me then, but all three times I've tried getting in touch with them, it ended up being a multi-week ordeal with minimal support and half-assed answers. I'm all for giving people second chances, but it shouldn't take 2-4 weeks to get a response from a company that I paid almost a grand to... three times, at that.

Believer
04-29-2013, 08:50 AM
Maybe it's just me then, but all three times I've tried getting in touch with them, it ended up being a multi-week ordeal with minimal support and half-assed answers. I'm all for giving people second chances, but it shouldn't take 2-4 weeks to get a response from a company that I paid almost a grand to... three times, at that.

I have only tried to reach out to UM once via their contact form on their website, but I never heard back from them also. I'm not ready to purchase right now but had a couple of questions and just didn't care enough to persist in trying to get a reply. But I'd agree with the statement that their customer service really needs to step it up.

QuattroGinger
04-30-2013, 04:01 AM
Maybe it's just me then, but all three times I've tried getting in touch with them, it ended up being a multi-week ordeal with minimal support and half-assed answers. I'm all for giving people second chances, but it shouldn't take 2-4 weeks to get a response from a company that I paid almost a grand to... three times, at that.

pm'd you. had a question or 2 for you about your tune.

c0r3y.af
04-30-2013, 05:25 AM
I have only tried to reach out to UM once via their contact form on their website, but I never heard back from them also. I'm not ready to purchase right now but had a couple of questions and just didn't care enough to persist in trying to get a reply. But I'd agree with the statement that their customer service really needs to step it up.
It's a shame to be quite honest, because they really do make a killer tune. They would get a lot more business if they actually checked their e-mails and voicemails more often.


pm'd you. had a question or 2 for you about your tune.
Replied. Let me know if there's anything else you need!