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BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 12:16 PM
Whats up Audizine, my name's Andrew, this is my 4th B5, and I am sure it wont be my last haha.

Before i get started, feel free too lemme know what you guys think, good or bad, feed back is what i am here for. I'll start things off with my motor plans. I am shooting for +/-600whp. As for parts list / plan, nothing is 100% so let me know what i should steer away from. Basically i dont give two flying hoots about lag, so long as i have a consistent power band up top, I wouldn't want to drop out of peak boost between shifts or anything boring like that, though from what i have been reading, it's inevitable with a BAT 1.8t paired to the 01E going from first to second. Which I don't have a problem with seeing how I wont be going for track times, rather a weekend toy. I have a background in racing, mainly shifter karts, so keeping the revs up is really no issue for me, i would prefer it that way to be honest.


-Borg Warner EFR 7670 Twin Scroll .92AR, exhaust housing coated with White Lighting Ceramic coating + a blanket
-06A block (retaining stock stroke and bore dimensions) fully gone through, all new OEM seals, gaskets, oil pick up, oil pump, ect.
-JE FSR pistons, possibly WPC treated, 20mm Tool steel wrist pins, 81mm 8.5:1
-IE Tuscan Rods 144x20
-Calico coated rod/main bearings
-Balanced rotating assembly
-OEM head gasket
-Full-Race Twin scroll EFR Turbo Manifold, 034 3" Down pipe, both will get a White Lighting Ceramic Coat and be heat wrapped
-Tial Q-DV 50mm
-Exhaust 3" turbo back, 3" Borla muffler, 3" electronic exhaust cut out, all mandrel and SS
-IE Intake Manifold + 034 I/M Spacer
-68mm VR6 throttle body
-Stock port AEB, with polished exhaust ports
-AEB head, plan on a 8000 redline, though you know how plans go [rolleyes]
-IE 20v street cams, yummy
-I plan on Keeping VVT
-Ferrea valve spring kit, fully WPC treated
-Super single FX850
-Typical big ass garret core, 2.5" inlet to 3" outlet

Still tossing around Fuel/Engine management ideas... Whats the big hoot with eurodyne maestro, i have read good and bad things, their UI doesn't look too fantastic.
So far I am leaning towards...
-United Motorsports Stage 5 file
-Bosch EV14s 910cc
-United Motorsports pro MAF
-034 Billet fuel rail
-034 dual 044 pump mounts with surge tank
-AN fittings from tank to rail

also!
-NoS Spray bar over my intercooler (dat timing!! [drool])


Gonna be a slow process, but I have been wanting to start putting this together peace by peace for a long time, just want to make sure I do it right the first time.


So this is my current daily driver, it's an 01 Avant, Hibiscus red, 5 speed manual, Quattro, 1.8t sport. sunroof-less model, blah blah. Pretty much stock with the exception of a Podi boost gauge and steering column pod (which is absolutely awesome, and i very highly recommend picking one up). After buying the car, i found a surprise when i had the air box out, front end had been hit bad, and repaired. after having the car on a lift i found more damage, looks like one of the PO's managed to high side on something, crushing parts of the floor pan. Not a huge deal but in the end, this things not gonna do, i am way to OCD about my car to let that slide. Not only that, i was over the color pretty quick, as lame as that sounds, it just wasn't my thing, i thought it would grow on me more but it never did, maybe if it was actually OEM mint paint, i would like it more, but i found myself missing my old black sedan, just more into simple and clean colors i guess. Here are some pics of my daily.





http://i50.tinypic.com/2mpg9bl.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/do3mmp.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/2n0m0bo.jpg






Annnnnd this is my newest Avant, Pearl white, Quattro, 98, WAS a 2.8/Auto, now its a nothing/nothing. The first pic is how i found it, when going to check out a few parts i decided i wanted the whole car, $800 later, it was mine. Full interior, Full drive train (-trans), basically everything minus trans and engine. A little higher then its worth, actually a lot lol, but he was a cool dude and let me pay him in increments, rather then all at once, which helped me big time. So i was willing to pay more then its worth.

Had to put it back together(ish), at 8PM after some guy tore the motor and trans out, threw all the hardware in the front door panel (dead serious) and left the parts in a pile.. what a nice guy right? :facepalm: afterwards i had to get it back to my house over 30 miles away some how, and im no Fred Flintstone... Lucky for me, the PO helped me trailer it back to my house.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ajb9s9.jpg

Finally in my drive way! and got to give it a quick bath, cleaned up really well, cant wait to clay bar this thing.

http://i50.tinypic.com/312uwzq.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/13zpulx.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2llkisg.jpg


No motor or trans + 2.8 spring tension = TROPHY TRUCK AUDI AVANT [o_o]

Anyways, enough with the stocker pics... Plans are to take my AWM 1.8t, harness, and the 5 speed trans, out of Hibiscus, and put it into pearl. Pearl has some body damage, on the drivers side as you can see in the pics. I already have 4 pretty mint already painted white doors i just have to go pick up, that are going on, the doors are off an 01 s4, so facelift door handles and painted lowers, score! [>_<]

under hood shot before i started to clean and remove things.

http://i45.tinypic.com/f3i3o4.jpg


I also recently decided I am going to relocate the ABS pump and the strange vacuum solenoid thing under neath the abs pump behind the firewall, mounted to the battery hold down mount. I will be running SS braided brake lines from the pump all the way to the calipers. Then put the battery in the trunk, where the stock CD changer is. Also gonna run the GTI bubble expansion tank, with a black b7 PS res. Will hopefully clear up a decent amount of room to work.

Started detailing my engine bay this weekend, got alot done for only spending a day doing it on and off. being lazy ftw

http://i45.tinypic.com/11imr8x.jpg


And some random interior shots :pic:
Note, i have not TOUCHED the interior of this car yet, everything has a good layer of grime on it yet it still looks good, going to look nice after a good detail and vacuuming.

http://i45.tinypic.com/311qd1s.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/vfh6wk.jpg

Also, while digging through the glove box, i was surprised to find a lot of the original owner's manuals, if not all of them, pretty cool imo.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1q0dg2.jpg

Quick tips! haha
[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2414h7b.jpg[/IMG

M-Hood
04-22-2013, 12:41 PM
I only know of 1 Audi 1.8t owner that is running a oil-less Comp Turbo, I haven't heard from him since he got the car running which usually tends to be a good sign.

As for the oil-less turbo, there is a good amount of break-in period to loosen up the packed grease. At first the wheels do not spin at all and then slowly start to spin as it all loosens up.



-Piston rings ?!?!?! I don't see any issue using JE rings, but if their is a better option out there, i'm all ears.
Nothing wrong with the JE rings, I run them in my A4 that has made up to 650whp.

-IE Tuscan Rods 144x20
Good choice of Rod

Rod bearings ?!?!? Any suggestions? I am not planning on running Meth or anything like that, just gonna keep it simple and run 100+ oct, smells WAY TO FCKING GOOD to not. also should i look into changing the clearances up at all?
I would suggest Calico coated rod/main bearings for the power you want to make.

-Head gasket ?!?!? Any suggestions on whats a good gasket to use when pushing lots-o-air and psi?
Stock head gasket is just fine. I run a OEM head gasket on my 1.8t which sees up to 37psi of boost.

ATP manifold and 034 3" SPA Downpipe with 38mm wastegate dump.
An Ok manifold, but if your looking to make 600whp I would suggest a tube manifold. The Spa manifold just has horrible flow. Just think of it like a glove with very short fingers for runners.


Unsure on Throttle body, i would like to stick with DBW for tuning purposes.
Don't really need anything larger then 70mm, even a 65mm TB will work just fine for 600whp.

AEB head, plan on a 8000 redline, I don't want to be pushing my valve train close to its limits when hitting 8k, 1 overrev + some bad luck = bad. Ferrea kit should do the job correct?
Any of the aftermarket high lift high rev valve spring kits will work. So Ferrea, Supertech or IE brand will do just fine.


FX700 Twin Disc 6 puck
Not the best choice for the street since it needs a pedal stop and both disks are unsprung. Better choice would be a super single FX850 which uses a single sprung disk.

ianwpb
04-22-2013, 12:45 PM
Pretty sweet!

By the way, the strange vacuum solenoid thing under the abs pump is a vacuum reservoir for the Cruise Control system on n-DBW cars.

redline380
04-22-2013, 01:11 PM
ambitious goals, my friend. ill be impressed when i see this thing get together.

although i would like to mention you might as well ditch vvt. it will gain you nothing. also, how do you plan on getting this thing past inspection if you plan on driving this on the road?

terraflata
04-22-2013, 02:14 PM
ambitious goals, my friend. ill be impressed when i see this thing get together.

although i would like to mention you might as well ditch vvt. it will gain you nothing. also, how do you plan on getting this thing past inspection if you plan on driving this on the road?

This is not really true. 034 was doing experimenting with VVT on their A4 Time Attack car, was seeing something like 60lb/ft tq just by switching it on and off, not sure at what rpm. Look it up there is a thread. Would be nice to see something concrete about adapting it though.

walky_talky20
04-22-2013, 02:47 PM
^I think the deal was that it did barely anything with stock cams, but could do wonders with aggressive aftermarket cams. It gives a 20-ish (23?) degree advance on the intake cam, which is enough to make a difference in torque.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 02:50 PM
I only know of 1 Audi 1.8t owner that is running a oil-less Comp Turbo, I haven't heard from him since he got the car running which usually tends to be a good sign.

As for the oil-less turbo, there is a good amount of break-in period to loosen up the packed grease. At first the wheels do not spin at all and then slowly start to spin as it all loosens up.



-Piston rings ?!?!?! I don't see any issue using JE rings, but if their is a better option out there, i'm all ears.
Nothing wrong with the JE rings, I run them in my A4 that has made up to 650whp.

-IE Tuscan Rods 144x20
Good choice of Rod

Rod bearings ?!?!? Any suggestions? I am not planning on running Meth or anything like that, just gonna keep it simple and run 100+ oct, smells WAY TO FCKING GOOD to not. also should i look into changing the clearances up at all?
I would suggest Calico coated rod/main bearings for the power you want to make.

-Head gasket ?!?!? Any suggestions on whats a good gasket to use when pushing lots-o-air and psi?
Stock head gasket is just fine. I run a OEM head gasket on my 1.8t which sees up to 37psi of boost.

ATP manifold and 034 3" SPA Downpipe with 38mm wastegate dump.
An Ok manifold, but if your looking to make 600whp I would suggest a tube manifold. The Spa manifold just has horrible flow. Just think of it like a glove with very short fingers for runners.


Unsure on Throttle body, i would like to stick with DBW for tuning purposes.
Don't really need anything larger then 70mm, even a 65mm TB will work just fine for 600whp.

AEB head, plan on a 8000 redline, I don't want to be pushing my valve train close to its limits when hitting 8k, 1 overrev + some bad luck = bad. Ferrea kit should do the job correct?
Any of the aftermarket high lift high rev valve spring kits will work. So Ferrea, Supertech or IE brand will do just fine.


FX700 Twin Disc 6 puck
Not the best choice for the street since it needs a pedal stop and both disks are unsprung. Better choice would be a super single FX850 which uses a single sprung disk.

Thanks Mike! As for the SPA manifold, that sucks D: i was reading good things about it being really close to equal length, and being cast it would likely outlast the car lol, oh well, any other manifolds out there besides full-race? maybe some with some EGT bungees or something. Or do you think going custom would be a better bet? Really like full-race manifolds, but don't like being limited with what i can do to it, without voiding the warranty

Pretty sweet!

By the way, the strange vacuum solenoid thing under the abs pump is a vacuum reservoir for the Cruise Control system on n-DBW cars.

Ohhh ok, note to self: DO NOT DELETE. cruise control > all.


ambitious goals, my friend. ill be impressed when i see this thing get together.

although i would like to mention you might as well ditch vvt. it will gain you nothing. also, how do you plan on getting this thing past inspection if you plan on driving this on the road?

Yeah, I was once told to always set your goals high :b haha but i figure, if i spend thousands upon thousands, i might as well go big... as hell.

and as for the VVT http://blog.034motorsport.com/tuning/dyno-testing-cat-3658-camshafts-with-vvt-cam-adjuster/ (:

Seerlah
04-22-2013, 02:58 PM
I would seriously consider upping the displacement. And look into a Tial DV over the Forge unit. The post size difference is rather concrete. You will also def want to rev past 8k rpm to enjoy that powerband and actually may be necessary to reach those numbers.

http://s24.postimg.org/dsg2fb145/DSC03949.jpg

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 03:35 PM
I would seriously consider upping the displacement. And look into a Tial DV over the Forge unit. The post size difference is rather concrete. You will also def want to rev past 8k rpm to enjoy that powerband and actually may be necessary to reach those numbers.

http://s24.postimg.org/dsg2fb145/DSC03949.jpg

Why? Formula 1 cars in the 80s made over 1200 whp with around 1.5L. Yes i know "its a f1 team zomg thats different zomg" well yes and no, still a 4 cycle internal combustion engine. with nothing much more then a BAT, a healthy dose of overlap, and alot-o-boost. Overall system efficiency is so much more important then .2L of displacement, i just would like to be able to pick up a used block, check measurements and bolt my shit right in.

What makes you think that with the powerband? I Just can't see a 6062 PT4 with the triplix system and oil-less package combined with VVT being all that laggy for the size. and if its that bad, i would much rather squirt some NoS during early spool then have to constantly be machining every new block i get.

thenj3
04-22-2013, 03:37 PM
nice build plans. mike covered all your questions. as for the bov, I had a 007 on my car then switched to a tial q 50mm much much better. i would also suggest a tubular manifold over the cast.

Seerlah
04-22-2013, 03:49 PM
Why? Formula 1 cars in the 80s made over 1200 whp with around 1.5L. Yes i know "its a f1 team zomg thats different zomg" well yes and no, still a 4 cycle internal combustion engine. with nothing much more then a BAT, a healthy dose of overlap, and alot-o-boost. Overall system efficiency is so much more important then .2L of displacement, i just would like to be able to pick up a used block, check measurements and bolt my shit right in.

What makes you think that with the powerband? I Just can't see a 6062 PT4 with the triplix system and oil-less package combined with VVT being all that laggy for the size. and if its that bad, i would much rather squirt some NoS during early spool then have to constantly be machining every new block i get.

Just basing my assumptions of the various dyno sheets on this forum board. I have no idea how that turbo will spool, so it was only a suggestion. I just think it is high hopes to be in the 600whp range below 8k rpm "with an actual enjoyable powerband" (<key words). Every rpm counts with dealing with a turbo that big. Once again, only a suggestion. Your car, your build. I just sit back and enjoy the threads [cool].

FWIW, I have rode in a B5 A4 stock displacement 6262 I think it was. From the passenger seat the spool was not bad at all and that thing def hauled ***. But he revved to around 9k rpm.

M-Hood
04-22-2013, 03:53 PM
Thanks Mike! As for the SPA manifold, that sucks D: i was reading good things about it being really close to equal length, and being cast it would likely outlast the car lol, oh well, any other manifolds out there besides full-race? maybe some with some EGT bungees or something. Or do you think going custom would be a better bet? Really like full-race manifolds, but don't like being limited with what i can do to it, without voiding the warranty





You can add EGT bungs to the Full-Race manifold without voiding the warranty, they can also be added by Full-Race if your buying a brand new manifold.


If you look inside the SPA manifold the runners might be equal length but at no more then 2-3 inches. lol
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/manifold_explanation.jpg

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Just basing my assumptions of the various dyno sheets on this forum board. I have no idea how that turbo will spool, so it was only a suggestion. I just think it is high hopes to be in the 600whp range below 8k rpm "with an actual enjoyable powerband" (<key words). Every rpm counts with dealing with a turbo that big. Once again, only a suggestion. Your car, your build. I just sit back and enjoy the threads [cool].

FWIW, I have rode in a B5 A4 stock displacement 6262 I think it was. From the passenger seat the spool was not bad at all and that thing def hauled ***. But he revved to around 9k rpm.

Sorry if my response seemed defensive, it wasn't intended to be, i should of worded it a little different, i meant why as in what makes you think that? Hmmmm which 6262 specifically? If there is no major difference in parts(solid lifters) required to rev to 9k then i am all for it, i wonder what kind of issues with float i would or wouldn't have though.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 04:44 PM
You can add EGT bungs to the Full-Race manifold without voiding the warranty, they can also be added by Full-Race if your buying a brand new manifold.


If you look inside the SPA manifold the runners might be equal length but at no more then 2-3 inches. lol
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/manifold_explanation.jpg

Wow lol, thats what i was kinda picturing with your glove analogy, but that sucks, it really does a good job looking similar to a tube minus the tube part and the price that follows it lol. Too good to be true i suppose [mad]

and for the full-race mani, i didn't know that, pretty awesome. think that's the route i will be going, what do you think about twin scroll? If i went 6062 i should be able to swap hot sides as i want right? Any idea how much sooner spool can be realistically expected with TS vs Single? Or if its even worth it at all? I have found very little information on it, but alot of really promising results.

Seerlah
04-22-2013, 04:49 PM
Sorry if my response seemed defensive, it wasn't intended to be, i should of worded it a little different, i meant why as in what makes you think that? Hmmmm which 6262 specifically? If there is no major difference in parts(solid lifters) required to rev to 9k then i am all for it, i wonder what kind of issues with float i would or wouldn't have though.

With high rev springs, float should not be an issue. That is why people upgrade their springs. To run beyond the stock tach. It was also a journal bearing billet wheel Precision turbo, I believe.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 04:54 PM
With high rev springs, float should not be an issue. That is why people upgrade their springs. To run beyond the stock tach. It was also a journal bearing billet wheel Precision turbo, I believe.

Correct, i just thought with hydro lifters no matter the spring tension eventually fluid can only change speeds so fast. But hey if thats all that is required, i have no issue revving to 9. I just could of swore i read different somewhere, but that was a while ago lol.

Seerlah
04-22-2013, 05:18 PM
Maybe Mike will enlighten us more on that.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Maybe Mike will enlighten us more on that.

x2

I'm all game for 9k though... I was thinking today I might try and make a custom cluster, as OEM looking as possible but with obviously way better hardware, with more important things in your face then battery voltage, not that you shouldn't monitor battery voltage, oil pressure in its place would be 10x better imo. Would be a task though, with all independent gauges and what not. Plus if i read correct our tach cant even keep up with a BT car in lower gears, which would be all bad haha.

Seerlah
04-22-2013, 06:42 PM
Click the link.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/456316-Introduction-BAT-content-inside?p=7708650&viewfull=1#post7708650

The unit he used is listed in his build thread.

http://www.racepak.com/Components/IQ3_Display.php

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 07:03 PM
Click the link.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/456316-Introduction-BAT-content-inside?p=7708650&viewfull=1#post7708650

The unit he used is listed in his build thread.

http://www.racepak.com/Components/IQ3_Display.php

Ohhh nice, i remember seeing that thread a good while ago, I was definitely leaning towards a full blown race data system like that, i really like the ones AIM make, i used them when i raced karts, would look clean.

http://www.aimsports.com/products/mxl-chooser.html

Plus they are local to Socal, and have truly incredible customer service. I broke the screen on my Mychron, drove down there and within 15 minutes walked out with it fixed for free, really cool people.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 07:38 PM
So... much.... WANT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWNNQY-Wwg

thenj3
04-22-2013, 08:06 PM
i want to build a vrt someday. they sound so sick.

BattleWagon
04-22-2013, 08:12 PM
Truth, but i am torn between a VRT and an i5, or just dropping in a 2.7 and have lulz easy mode hp.

But theres something about small displacement big turbo cars i love.

coolgraymemo
04-22-2013, 08:18 PM
-Comp CT4-6062, Tial V-band .62 AR, White Lighting Ceramic Coating + a blanket, Triplix oil-less turbo, i REALLY like the idea of keeping the engine oil IN THE ENGINE only, instead of a red hot turbo breaking down its viscosity, especially while revving to the moon, I can't find anyone in the VW world with an oil-less though, so as of now i really like this option, but let me know what you think.
-06A block (retaining stock stroke and bore dimensions) fully gone through, all new OEM seals, gaskets, oil pick up, oil pump, ect.
-JE FSR pistons, Tuff skirt, Thermal coating, 20mm Tool steel wrist pins, 81mm 8.5:1
-IE Tuscan Rods 144x20
-Calico coated rod/main bearings
-Balanced rotating assembly
-OEM head gasket
-Full-Race Turbo Manifold w/ 4 EGT bungees, 034 3" Down pipe, w/ v-band gate dump, both will get a White Lighting Ceramic Coat and be heat wrapped
-Tial MV-R 44mm external gate
-Tial Q-DV 50mm
-Exhaust 3" turbo back, 3" Borla muffler, 3" electronic exhaust cut out, all mandrel and SS
-IE Intake Manifold + 034 I/M Spacer
-70MM Throttle body
-Head work?!?! As for my head work, I am unsure, I need to do all the obvious, but as for porting, i am still doing a ton of research, but I would like to hear someone with real world experience point me in the right direction for how extreme i need to take the port job, if at all. the less machine work the better imo
-AEB head, plan on a 8500-9000 redline
-IE 20v street cams, yummy
-Keeping VVT
-Ferrea valve spring kit
-Super single FX850
-Typical big ass garret core, 2.5" inlet to 3" outlet

Still tossing around Fuel/Engine management ideas... Whats the big hoot with eurodyne maestro, i have read good and bad things, their UI doesn't look too fantastic.



http://cdn.niketalk.com/a/a7/a7adb17d_agr3ycej.gif

M-Hood
04-23-2013, 07:04 AM
Wow lol, thats what i was kinda picturing with your glove analogy, but that sucks, it really does a good job looking similar to a tube minus the tube part and the price that follows it lol. Too good to be true i suppose [mad]

and for the full-race mani, i didn't know that, pretty awesome. think that's the route i will be going, what do you think about twin scroll? If i went 6062 i should be able to swap hot sides as i want right? Any idea how much sooner spool can be realistically expected with TS vs Single? Or if its even worth it at all? I have found very little information on it, but alot of really promising results.


Problem with doing a twin scroll setup is fitting 2 EWG's in there since the frame gets in the way. Full-Race makes a twin scroll longitude 1.8t manifold but it is for the internal WG EFR's. I have been trying to get Full-Race to modify it with twin EWG's but they just haven't said yes yet. I guess I could ask AFI Turbo if he would be willing to make a twin scroll 1.8t manifold for me, they too are local to me so I can always just drop off my car.



Correct, i just thought with hydro lifters no matter the spring tension eventually fluid can only change speeds so fast. But hey if thats all that is required, i have no issue revving to 9. I just could of swore i read different somewhere, but that was a while ago lol.


I take my motor to 8500-9k all the time at the track while I am making under 570whp, Dan has a B6 with a 6262 and he runs his to 9k all the time. Doctor also has a 6262 in his B7 1.8t and he rev's the car above 8k. All of 3 of us are still running hydraulic lifters and aftermarket high rev valve springs. No need for solid lifters unless you plan on going well beyond 9k like Aaron does with his Audi drag car.

BattleWagon
04-23-2013, 08:35 AM
http://cdn.niketalk.com/a/a7/a7adb17d_agr3ycej.gif

rofl, watched it 50 times, still laugh


Problem with doing a twin scroll setup is fitting 2 EWG's in there since the frame gets in the way. Full-Race makes a twin scroll longitude 1.8t manifold but it is for the internal WG EFR's. I have been trying to get Full-Race to modify it with twin EWG's but they just haven't said yes yet. I guess I could ask AFI Turbo if he would be willing to make a twin scroll 1.8t manifold for me, they too are local to me so I can always just drop off my car.



I take my motor to 8500-9k all the time at the track while I am making under 570whp, Dan has a B6 with a 6262 and he runs his to 9k all the time. Doctor also has a 6262 in his B7 1.8t and he rev's the car above 8k. All of 3 of us are still running hydraulic lifters and aftermarket high rev valve springs. No need for solid lifters unless you plan on going well beyond 9k like Aaron does with his Audi drag car.

I am actually reconsidering going EFR, since i am gonna need a full-race manifold anyways. Do you know of anyone running a 7670 on a 1.8t? Is it safe to say i can expect quite a bit earlier spool over the 6062 TBB? If i can keep the redline at 8, for the sake of keeping my cluster. would be sweet.

Monty23
04-23-2013, 08:41 AM
Your don't need to limit your max rpm due to your cluster....lol, just get a shift light....

BattleWagon
04-23-2013, 09:05 AM
yea that is true lol

thenj3
04-23-2013, 09:27 AM
Or go by sound. Thats what I do in first amd second as it just goes way to fast.

Here is a link for an evo 2 2l running a 7670. I forget when it hit fupl boost but if your interrsted read the thread. Its quite long but very informative.
http://m.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=603965

zandrew
04-23-2013, 10:04 AM
I spoke with INA and they stated with springs a safe redline was 7800. With stock springs its 7200. I don't know how much margin is in those numbers but I have heard that they are quite safe. I know we used a SC6156 on a B18B (which is a fair comparison to the AEB) and it did not make much till after4500 and was revved out to 9500. It had a lot of custom head work though.

The main purpose of the oil less is not to keep you from using your oil in the cartridge. It was mostly designed for setups where a remote mount turbo is needed and to prevent having to use scavnge pump and running long lines to and from the unit where the offset in price is well justified. When I spoke to Comp about them they told me in a setup where oil could be used there is absolute no advantage. I mention it since its an expensive option and the difference in price would help significantly elsewhere like maybe springs and solid lifters with a set of cams.

I'd also take a look at Borg Warner EFR turbos. It seems like they are had to actually get since there is some sort of shortage but they are wicked.

M-Hood
04-23-2013, 01:14 PM
I spoke with INA and they stated with springs a safe redline was 7800. With stock springs its 7200. I don't know how much margin is in those numbers but I have heard that they are quite safe. I know we used a SC6156 on a B18B (which is a fair comparison to the AEB) and it did not make much till after4500 and was revved out to 9500. It had a lot of custom head work though.

The main purpose of the oil less is not to keep you from using your oil in the cartridge. It was mostly designed for setups where a remote mount turbo is needed and to prevent having to use scavnge pump and running long lines to and from the unit where the offset in price is well justified. When I spoke to Comp about them they told me in a setup where oil could be used there is absolute no advantage. I mention it since its an expensive option and the difference in price would help significantly elsewhere like maybe springs and solid lifters with a set of cams.

I'd also take a look at Borg Warner EFR turbos. It seems like they are had to actually get since there is some sort of shortage but they are wicked.

Wait so INA tells you something and you believe it but not from anyone that actually owns a A4 1.8t? LOL

zandrew
04-23-2013, 07:03 PM
What INA told me was along the lines of what everyone has remarked on the topic of RPM' give or take a few hundred. I think the max I have seen anyone say was 8500 with springs and that is why I clearly stated "safe".

Its not that I don't believe you, its that when I look at from the expierence I have had before I see that it "might" work. Might being the key term.

Mike is posting on the numerous forums you "grace" like getting laid or something?

Seerlah
04-23-2013, 07:14 PM
Welcome to Audizine. You need to see the threads where they go at it with each others (Mike and Issam). It's quite amusing. You need to hang out in the B6 A4 section more to see this stuff, though.

zandrew
04-23-2013, 07:27 PM
I think Mike has a love hate relationship with everyone. Oh well, he atleast has a leg to stand on though since he actually has done some impressive shit with his car.

I wish, in even one of his prickish "I am better then you" ways that he would have told me I was being a dumb shit for using the ATP manifold. Atleast I would know 100% he is right about that LOL.

OP your lucky. I looked for quite sometime for an Avant and no luck. You have 2 :^(

Seerlah
04-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Anybody on this forum could have told you that. Most things have been tried and proven. That is why people get mad at you when you keep arguing for nothing. For example, the ATP manifold has been tried and proven to be effective, a PIA to install, and an even bigger PIA to uninstall.

BattleWagon
04-23-2013, 07:38 PM
Or go by sound. Thats what I do in first amd second as it just goes way to fast.

Here is a link for an evo 2 2l running a 7670. I forget when it hit fupl boost but if your interrsted read the thread. Its quite long but very informative.
http://m.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=603965

Yeah I think thats what i would end up doing anyways, i honestly just want a linear tach that doesnt stop at 8k, but thats just meh ocd. If i am going EFR TS, which i think i might, I think 8 might be all i need.




Welcome to Audizine. You need to see the threads where they go at it with each others (Mike and Issam). It's quite amusing. You need to hang out in the B6 A4 section more to see this stuff, though.

thanks

hahah and yeah i have seen them go back and forth a few different threads, good ol interwebz [:p]



I think Mike has a love hate relationship with everyone. Oh well, he atleast has a leg to stand on though since he actually has done some impressive shit with his car.

I wish, in even one of his prickish "I am better then you" ways that he would have told me I was being a dumb shit for using the ATP manifold. Atleast I would know 100% he is right about that LOL.

OP your lucky. I looked for quite sometime for an Avant and no luck. You have 2 :^(

ahh lol, they tend to pop up now and again, if your in california i will sell you my Hibiscus shell for dirt :b It is a sunroof-less model, i dont want to trash it but i cant have it sitting for long, after the swap and everything that is

BattleWagon
04-23-2013, 08:02 PM
i plan on being done with the motor swap within 2 months tops, but you know how that usually goes [wrench]

034Motorsport
04-24-2013, 09:43 AM
I take my motor to 8500-9k all the time at the track while I am making under 570whp, Dan has a B6 with a 6262 and he runs his to 9k all the time. Doctor also has a 6262 in his B7 1.8t and he rev's the car above 8k. All of 3 of us are still running hydraulic lifters and aftermarket high rev valve springs. No need for solid lifters unless you plan on going well beyond 9k like Aaron does with his Audi drag car.

In my opinion this is a bit of a bold statement for the 5v heads. For short freeway pulls or daily driving fun or the 1/4 mile, I agree. But if the car is going to see any serious degree of road track, I wouldn't suggest revving beyond 8500rpm (or even 8000rpm) with hydraulic lifters and cams. I've seen far too many people pack a lifter or float a valve when run at those levels for sustained periods of times on the track; the heads aren't the best at shedding heat and things move when they are that hot. Hydraulic lifter cams also just aren't meant for those levels either. Plus, you need serious head porting to really actually make any additional power that high. It's nice to have the high limit as on the track there are often times that it is more beneficial to stay in gear for a second longer before a turn, but to actually make more power up there, needs to be a big ass turbo. I don't believe in the whole "a few people have done it, so it must be safe" philosophy.

Regardless, make sure you get the pistons machined for additional valve clearance, especially if you plan on utilizing VVT (which makes a huge difference in expanding the powerband of aftermarket cams). The additional clearance will allow VVT and give you more safety when your valves start to move around at ridiculous RPMs.

I also highly suggest you do a 2.0L. You can keep pistons at 81.5mm or 82mm so there is plenty of wall thickness, and utilize an FSI 2.0L crank. You won't be limited to revving out; we rev our car to over 9000rpm (solid lifters of course), but even with a 6262 and crazy head work, it's not making more power at 9k. The additional powerband of a 2.0L will easily outweigh any advantage of revving out. A properly built 2.0L with a Precision 6262 can hit 25psi by 4000rpm and rev to beyond 8000rpm. That's a 4000rpm powerband, which is huge.

And I wouldn't let something as basic and simple as your cluster limit your RPM, that's not really thinking. I would limit your RPM for the obvious reasons such as the fact that it is very rare to "make" additional power beyond 8000rpm. Sounds badass and it's fun, I revved my S4 past 8000rpm on occasions, but from an acceleration standpoint you're better off dropping a gear into the sweet spot.

That's my opinion. Looks like it will be a great build. If you're main priority is making big power on the dyno, no reason to spend all the additional machine work on solid lifters. Don't forget that while the price of the lifters isn't that expensive, it takes quite a bit of machine shop time to custom shim them all. Add in the time it takes to custom degree some solid lifter cams, and you're saving a crapload of money staying hydraulic.

BattleWagon
04-24-2013, 10:18 AM
In my opinion this is a bit of a bold statement for the 5v heads. For short freeway pulls or daily driving fun or the 1/4 mile, I agree. But if the car is going to see any serious degree of road track, I wouldn't suggest revving beyond 8500rpm (or even 8000rpm) with hydraulic lifters and cams. I've seen far too many people pack a lifter or float a valve when run at those levels for sustained periods of times on the track; the heads aren't the best at shedding heat and things move when they are that hot. Hydraulic lifter cams also just aren't meant for those levels either. Plus, you need serious head porting to really actually make any additional power that high. It's nice to have the high limit as on the track there are often times that it is more beneficial to stay in gear for a second longer before a turn, but to actually make more power up there, needs to be a big ass turbo. I don't believe in the whole "a few people have done it, so it must be safe" philosophy.



Regardless, make sure you get the pistons machined for additional valve clearance, especially if you plan on utilizing VVT (which makes a huge difference in expanding the powerband of aftermarket cams). The additional clearance will allow VVT and give you more safety when your valves start to move around at ridiculous RPMs.

I also highly suggest you do a 2.0L. You can keep pistons at 81.5mm or 82mm so there is plenty of wall thickness, and utilize an FSI 2.0L crank. You won't be limited to revving out; we rev our car to over 9000rpm (solid lifters of course), but even with a 6262 and crazy head work, it's not making more power at 9k. The additional powerband of a 2.0L will easily outweigh any advantage of revving out. A properly built 2.0L with a Precision 6262 can hit 25psi by 4000rpm and rev to beyond 8000rpm. That's a 4000rpm powerband, which is huge.

And I wouldn't let something as basic and simple as your cluster limit your RPM, that's not really thinking. I would limit your RPM for the obvious reasons such as the fact that it is very rare to "make" additional power beyond 8000rpm. Sounds badass and it's fun, I revved my S4 past 8000rpm on occasions, but from an acceleration standpoint you're better off dropping a gear into the sweet spot.

That's my opinion. Looks like it will be a great build. If you're main priority is making big power on the dyno, no reason to spend all the additional machine work on solid lifters. Don't forget that while the price of the lifters isn't that expensive, it takes quite a bit of machine shop time to custom shim them all. Add in the time it takes to custom degree some solid lifter cams, and you're saving a crapload of money staying hydraulic.

Awesome information, thanks max.

As for the 2.0, I think that is what i will end up doing, until yesterday i never realized how cheap TSI cranks can be, I guess i will have to fork out the extra dough haha, all my "money saving" plans are slowly decaying, gotta pay to play i suppose [:(] haha

And my cluster wouldn't be the only reason i dont want to rev past 8, it's just one of those "would be cool if" kinda things, i am really going for an OEM look and function, inside and out. But trust me when i say, a cluster wont keep me from 600awhp

That was my thought on solids, way too expensive lol

My main priority isn't big #s, more of a fun car to drive, and to be a fun project.

i am leaning towards a 7670 t4 .93 a/r, internally gated with the full race mani, I orignally went with comp for the sake of saving a few bugs on a log manifold, but if i need to go tubular, might as well go efr plus full-race mani.

M-Hood
04-24-2013, 10:19 AM
fuck the drama, keep the advise coming!

Advise is what I try to give, but people like to bring the drama no matter what I post and that hasn't changed in the 13+ years I have been a A4 owner. lol


BTW I know a shop that has a 7670 T3 in stock, the T4 TS's are the ones that are hard to find.

BattleWagon
04-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Hmmm, i think i will hold out for a TS, It makes such a clean, simple setup, not to mention saving the expense of buying a waste gate.

Anyone been to an Indy car race in the last 2 years, i heard they are running the EFRs. I got a chance to get a long close up look of their setups, everything is laid out so clean, 90% of lines and frame are heat wrapped, they are externally gated, cant imagine how that thing spools.

viceprp
04-24-2013, 03:50 PM
Doesn't look like you mentioned fuel pumps or lines with your build. Depending on full, I would run -8 & -6 lines. Not sure if a single 044 pump and surge tank will do it or if dual 044 need to be at hand. Mike will chime in since he almost has a 600whp car ;)

BattleWagon
04-24-2013, 05:46 PM
Doesn't look like you mentioned fuel pumps or lines with your build. Depending on full, I would run -8 & -6 lines. Not sure if a single 044 pump and surge tank will do it or if dual 044 need to be at hand. Mike will chime in since he almost has a 600whp car ;)

Right you are my friend!

I am still doing my homework, but i have a few ideas together, one of which includes a 044 or multiple 044, i would like to not run a surge tank if possible though

A4Rob
04-24-2013, 07:17 PM
The additional powerband of a 2.0L will easily outweigh any advantage of revving out.



Assuming you are talking about a 2.0 vs staying 1.8, then I seriously doubt your logic. Are you saying that .2L will make a noticeable difference on a car running 30+ lb boost "still revving it out"? I don't think so.

"X" car making 20psi shifting at 6400RPM will be faster that "Y" car running 20psi shifting at 9000RPM. "X" car has a 2.0L. Sorry, I just don't see it. When I was doing my build I researched the heck out of justifying the extra $1K to go 2.0, but I never found it. I still make 500HP without it. /rant

thenj3
04-24-2013, 07:23 PM
i agree with rob. you will gain maybe 300rpm spool time. a big turbo will take much more advantage from revving out further

BattleWagon
04-24-2013, 08:25 PM
Assuming you are talking about a 2.0 vs staying 1.8, then I seriously doubt your logic. Are you saying that .2L will make a noticeable difference on a car running 30+ lb boost "still revving it out"? I don't think so.

"X" car making 20psi shifting at 6400RPM will be faster that "Y" car running 20psi shifting at 9000RPM. "X" car has a 2.0L. Sorry, I just don't see it. When I was doing my build I researched the heck out of justifying the extra $1K to go 2.0, but I never found it. I still make 500HP without it. /rant

That was kinda my thoughts lol, I am probably gonna just do an FSI crank with stock bore since it requires no machine work on my block, unless i am mistaken?

catbed
04-24-2013, 09:06 PM
That was kinda my thoughts lol, I am probably gonna just do an FSI crank with stock bore since it requires no machine work on my block, unless i am mistaken?

No need to drop unnecessary coin on the FSI crank. AEG is the same but cast. I've never heard of anybody breaking a crank.

Seerlah
04-25-2013, 01:06 AM
I'm building another engine and picked up an FSI crank for $155 shipped. Deals are out there.

viceprp
04-25-2013, 02:07 AM
Right you are my friend!

I am still doing my homework, but i have a few ideas together, one of which includes a 044 or multiple 044, i would like to not run a surge tank if possible though

http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-injection-solutions-dual-044-fuel-pump-mounting-kit-with-surge-tank-p-19702.html

But look how pretty it is and you wouldn't ever have to worry about having enough fuel. Also, get an adjustable FPR too. I'm running .. scratch that . . I have -8 & -6 fuel lines on my car and a single 044 with surge tank and it should be able to fuel my car to my, someday, expected goals of 400whp. My setup might be overkill for just a 3076 but who knows what my right foot might want in the future.

lorge1989
04-25-2013, 05:19 AM
I will never understand the hate the SPA manifold gets. I feel it is one of the best manifold for he longitudinal 1.8T platforms, when you consider all factors for a street car.

Awesome build OP, I'm interested in seeing how the turbo holds up.

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 07:18 AM
Right you are my friend!

I am still doing my homework, but i have a few ideas together, one of which includes a 044 or multiple 044, i would like to not run a surge tank if possible though

Single 044 pump will max out before you get to 600whp on race gas, unless you like the car leaning out like crazy which is exactly what happened on my car when I started pushing over 600whp on Q16 with a single 044 pump. At the track the AFR would jump up to over 14:1 and ended up clogging my injectors in the process.

Only way around running dual pumps without a surge tank is to run a fuel cell.



I will never understand the hate the SPA manifold gets. I feel it is one of the best manifold for he longitudinal 1.8T platforms, when you consider all factors for a street car.

Awesome build OP, I'm interested in seeing how the turbo holds up.

How is it one of the best if it is basically the worst designed log manifold out there? It has nothing in it to control the exhaust flow which just goes into 1 huge area, then runs into a wall to go out the flange and into the turbo. Plenty of A4 1.8t owners that were running the SPA manifold ended up going to a tube manifold and those are people that daily driver their car.

BattleWagon
04-25-2013, 09:21 AM
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-injection-solutions-dual-044-fuel-pump-mounting-kit-with-surge-tank-p-19702.html

But look how pretty it is and you wouldn't ever have to worry about having enough fuel. Also, get an adjustable FPR too. I'm running .. scratch that . . I have -8 & -6 fuel lines on my car and a single 044 with surge tank and it should be able to fuel my car to my, someday, expected goals of 400whp. My setup might be overkill for just a 3076 but who knows what my right foot might want in the future.

Oh wow, I didn't know that 034 offered that package, very nice!! I retract my prior statement. haha [facepalm] Is that a picture of it mounted in the spare tire compartment, I like a lot.

Seerlah
04-25-2013, 10:20 AM
Looks to me like the underside, where the charcoal canister would have been.

M-Hood
04-25-2013, 11:16 AM
Oh wow, I didn't know that 034 offered that package, very nice!! I retract my prior statement. haha [facepalm] Is that a picture of it mounted in the spare tire compartment, I like a lot.

yeah that is the setup they built for my car and then started selling. I have had it in my car since early 2009, if you need pictures of it let me know.

here is a video of that setup on my car (http://www.streetfire.net/video/dual-pumps_643749.htm)

034Motorsport
04-25-2013, 01:31 PM
Assuming you are talking about a 2.0 vs staying 1.8, then I seriously doubt your logic. Are you saying that .2L will make a noticeable difference on a car running 30+ lb boost "still revving it out"? I don't think so.

"X" car making 20psi shifting at 6400RPM will be faster that "Y" car running 20psi shifting at 9000RPM. "X" car has a 2.0L. Sorry, I just don't see it. When I was doing my build I researched the heck out of justifying the extra $1K to go 2.0, but I never found it. I still make 500HP without it. /rant

I guess I should have clarified a bit more; we fully feel that the small amount of additional cash necessary to go 2.0L is way worth it. 500rpm of spool and over 50 ft/lbs of torque earlier in the powerband? That's not worth it to you? With no ill effect on revving out either? If all you care about is peak power and not driveability, etc, then sure, I agree with you there is no advantage of going 2.0L.

It's not about peak power, not arguing a 2.0L will make any advantage at 30psi and 8000rpm compared to a 1.8L, but the OP did say he wants something that is fun to drive, etc. Ever driven an identical 1.8L to 2.0L setup back to back? The difference is huge, far more than I ever expected, and the additional off boost power is a hoot. I'm not a fan of BT 1.8L's at all; it goes from nothing to everything, no guts under 4500rpm. A 2.0L to me feels the way the 1.8L should have come from the factory. More torque means less shifting and more time spent in the powerband. Add in some higher compression, and woooo!

There's also no reason you can't rev a 2.0L out to the same rpm as a 1.8L, for all intensive purpose of discussion here. No one here is going to +10,000rpm so the rod to stroke ratio is moot in my opinion. I guess I'm also partial since we have done 2.0L builds and I've seen and felt the difference. The larger the turbo, the more of a difference the 2.0L will make. 2.0L = more powerband, more powerband = faster car. Perhaps I didn't qualify the fact that "faster" doesn't mean a 4000rpm to 8000rpm single gear pull. I'm talking faster in all general senses of the word, over all kinds of various situations.

BattleWagon
04-25-2013, 06:45 PM
I guess I should have clarified a bit more; we fully feel that the small amount of additional cash necessary to go 2.0L is way worth it. 500rpm of spool and over 50 ft/lbs of torque earlier in the powerband? That's not worth it to you? With no ill effect on revving out either? If all you care about is peak power and not driveability, etc, then sure, I agree with you there is no advantage of going 2.0L.

It's not about peak power, not arguing a 2.0L will make any advantage at 30psi and 8000rpm compared to a 1.8L, but the OP did say he wants something that is fun to drive, etc. Ever driven an identical 1.8L to 2.0L setup back to back? The difference is huge, far more than I ever expected, and the additional off boost power is a hoot. I'm not a fan of BT 1.8L's at all; it goes from nothing to everything, no guts under 4500rpm. A 2.0L to me feels the way the 1.8L should have come from the factory. More torque means less shifting and more time spent in the powerband. Add in some higher compression, and woooo!

There's also no reason you can't rev a 2.0L out to the same rpm as a 1.8L, for all intensive purpose of discussion here. No one here is going to +10,000rpm so the rod to stroke ratio is moot in my opinion. I guess I'm also partial since we have done 2.0L builds and I've seen and felt the difference. The larger the turbo, the more of a difference the 2.0L will make. 2.0L = more powerband, more powerband = faster car. Perhaps I didn't qualify the fact that "faster" doesn't mean a 4000rpm to 8000rpm single gear pull. I'm talking faster in all general senses of the word, over all kinds of various situations.

Damnit max, got me spendin more money and stuff [=(]

Haha but in all seriousness, thanks for the insight i really never heard it makes THAT much of a difference before, i was thinking today pulling away from lights is painful enough as it is, top end is what i am mainly going for, which is why i figured i could skip 2.0, but i'm not sure i can deal with it being worse, and if it really makes drive-ability, not necessarily power better, i am all for that. do you think a 2.0 9.0:1 cr will allow for enough timing up top with meth/91 on a 7670 TS .92AR EFR to make around 600whp? 600whp is what i am shooting for, I am more looking for a particular setup/ set of driving characteristics, in that power range, give or take.

Also would a stock port AEB head flow enough for my goals?

catbed
04-25-2013, 09:09 PM
Damnit max, got me spendin more money and stuff [=(]

Haha but in all seriousness, thanks for the insight i really never heard it makes THAT much of a difference before, i was thinking today pulling away from lights is painful enough as it is, top end is what i am mainly going for, which is why i figured i could skip 2.0, but i'm not sure i can deal with it being worse, and if it really makes drive-ability, not necessarily power better, i am all for that. do you think a 2.0 9.0:1 cr will allow for enough timing up top with meth/91 on a 7670 TS .92AR EFR to make around 600whp? 600whp is what i am shooting for, I am more looking for a particular setup/ set of driving characteristics, in that power range, give or take.

Also would a stock port AEB head flow enough for my goals?

Recipe for success. 8.5:1 will give you even more though.

Stock AEB is a much better choice than a stock ATW/AWM head.

viceprp
04-26-2013, 01:50 AM
Recipe for success. 8.5:1 will give you even more though.

Stock AEB is a much better choice than a stock ATW/AWM head.

Only on high revving cars does it shine. I am building my ATW head to make a good street/mid range car.

lorge1989
04-26-2013, 07:18 AM
How is it one of the best if it is basically the worst designed log manifold out there? It has nothing in it to control the exhaust flow which just goes into 1 huge area, then runs into a wall to go out the flange and into the turbo. Plenty of A4 1.8t owners that were running the SPA manifold ended up going to a tube manifold and those are people that daily driver their car.

The cost difference between a full race manifold and an SPA is like 300%. All factors for a street car to me mean performance, price and reliabilty. All of which the SPA has IMO. What wall are you speaking of in the manifold? I see 4 runners, short in length yes, but its a cast manifold its not going to be perfect, which flow into the main section of the manifold to the turbo. It will flow better than probably every other cast manfold on the market, and cost the same.

A full race will perform better when you get into some very large frame turbos. But I'm willing to bet on this setup the OP is running the performance gain from SPA to Full Race will not be as signifcant as you say. And not worth the cost. I'm going to try to model the SPA and do some fluid flow simulations on it. I will get back to this thread...

viceprp
04-26-2013, 03:24 PM
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1309206-cast-vs-tubular-manifolds-back-back-dyno.html

http://roadraceengineering.com/blog/?p=2041

M-Hood
04-26-2013, 05:11 PM
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1309206-cast-vs-tubular-manifolds-back-back-dyno.html

http://roadraceengineering.com/blog/?p=2041

Full-race did a dyno test not long after they made that manifold on my car. This was a test of their tube manifold vs the ATP side mount log manifold.

http://www.full-race.com/articles/1.8T_turbo_manifold_test_writeup.pdf



The cost difference between a full race manifold and an SPA is like 300%. All factors for a street car to me mean performance, price and reliabilty. All of which the SPA has IMO. What wall are you speaking of in the manifold? I see 4 runners, short in length yes, but its a cast manifold its not going to be perfect, which flow into the main section of the manifold to the turbo. It will flow better than probably every other cast manfold on the market, and cost the same.

A full race will perform better when you get into some very large frame turbos. But I'm willing to bet on this setup the OP is running the performance gain from SPA to Full Race will not be as signifcant as you say. And not worth the cost. I'm going to try to model the SPA and do some fluid flow simulations on it. I will get back to this thread...

OP wants to run a 6062 and last time I checked that is larger then the GT3076r Full-race and Bob Q used for the testing they did in that link I posted up above. The wall I am talking about is the one just under the turbo flange, where the exhaust gas has to take a 90 deg turn to get into the turbo.


Yes it is a 300% difference in price when comparing 1 of each manifold, but I have seen people go thru 2-3 SPA manifolds before throwing in the towel to go with a tube manifold.

BattleWagon
04-27-2013, 08:01 AM
I am thinking of ordering a 7670 twin scroll .92 instead of a 6062 tbb. Other then obvious performance reasons, if I buy the EFR Twin scroll full race manifold ($1160), 7670 turbo ($1920), and 034 full race down pipe ($395), that's about $3500 after shipping give or take. If i went with a normal tbb pt4 i would be spending close to what an EFR runs, combine that with the need to buy a $500 waste gate, plus the full-race single scroll is more expensive the twin scroll, in the end spending a few hundred extra for an EFR setup is well worth it vs even how nice the comp tbb turbos are, i would really enjoy running a twin scroll efr, i have read amazing things about them lol. oh and im probably gonna be keeping stock stroke for the sake of money, plus if i read correctly according to an article 034 put out, an AEB head with porting is necessary to take advantage of revving past 7000 rpm, i want to use a stock cast AEB head with maybe polished exhaust ports (by me). I figured when they said that they are referring to the 2008cc engine they were running, minus .2 displacement from that, i cant see an AEB head being a problem revving to 8 grand. then again i have no idea, just a theory.

viceprp
04-28-2013, 10:02 AM
I like your optimism and open mindedness of knowledge [up]

BattleWagon
04-28-2013, 01:04 PM
haha thanks, i figure the more info the better [az]

What works for one person, might not work for another [drive]

Well i moved my car to the garage yesterday, i live in some stupid gated community where we aren't aloud to work on cars in the drive way, pretty lame but it all worked out because now the sun doesn't get to beat down on my car. Gonna install my s4 doors this week, and kicker speakers, along with swap my currently drivers side door/key assembly to the s4 door, also gonna tear off my roof, and start getting stuff ready for fox suede or some thing. I wonder if i should polish my roof rails / window trim, i think it would look good on some kind of polished BBS rim.

viceprp
04-28-2013, 04:57 PM
haha thanks, i figure the more info the better [az]

What works for one person, might not work for another [drive]

Well i moved my car to the garage yesterday, i live in some stupid gated community where we aren't aloud to work on cars in the drive way, pretty lame but it all worked out because now the sun doesn't get to beat down on my car. Gonna install my s4 doors this week, and kicker speakers, along with swap my currently drivers side door/key assembly to the s4 door, also gonna tear off my roof, and start getting stuff ready for fox suede or some thing. I wonder if i should polish my roof rails / window trim, i think it would look good on some kind of polished BBS rim.

My Nazi HOA is the same way. No trash cans can be visible from the front of your house unless on trash day. No items may be left in the lawn as it is a townhouse. Every outdoor project must be approved by the HOA, even my patio that I am looking to put in. They believe an 8x10 is sufficient enough to put an 4 person table on and a grill .. Every home must be the exact same on its exterior.

Stranger
04-28-2013, 05:11 PM
I started to polish my roof rails, it's not fun. I think I'm about 15-20 hours into so far and only at 600 grit. Just gonna have em powdered coated mirror silver, for $100 it's way easier than sanding and polishing for hours.

BattleWagon
04-28-2013, 07:27 PM
My Nazi HOA is the same way. No trash cans can be visible from the front of your house unless on trash day. No items may be left in the lawn as it is a townhouse. Every outdoor project must be approved by the HOA, even my patio that I am looking to put in. They believe an 8x10 is sufficient enough to put an 4 person table on and a grill .. Every home must be the exact same on its exterior.

Wow I thought mine was bad lol I would probably be kicked out with having to approve every outdoor project


I started to polish my roof rails, it's not fun. I think I'm about 15-20 hours into so far and only at 600 grit. Just gonna have em powdered coated mirror silver, for $100 it's way easier than sanding and polishing for hours.

Yeah it's definetly not a quick process but it's soo worth it lol, did it to my dirt bike frame it's not that bad,
Just do a little here a little there

edit: WAIT what, 15 hours? WTF man oh man oh man, all you have to do is get the surface buttery perfect and smooth, then apply your mothers silver/aluminum polish and SHAZAM its a mirror.

lorge1989
04-29-2013, 08:48 AM
Full-race did a dyno test not long after they made that manifold on my car. This was a test of their tube manifold vs the ATP side mount log manifold.

http://www.full-race.com/articles/1.8T_turbo_manifold_test_writeup.pdf




OP wants to run a 6062 and last time I checked that is larger then the GT3076r Full-race and Bob Q used for the testing they did in that link I posted up above. The wall I am talking about is the one just under the turbo flange, where the exhaust gas has to take a 90 deg turn to get into the turbo.


Yes it is a 300% difference in price when comparing 1 of each manifold, but I have seen people go thru 2-3 SPA manifolds before throwing in the towel to go with a tube manifold.

Good info, I have never seen that. But IMO the ATP manifold and the SPA manifold are quite different. I digress though, I don't want to clog up this thread anymore. I will just have to see how the SPA manifold does on the turbo you just sold me. ;)

U_know_me
05-01-2013, 07:27 AM
[up]This thread is packed with a lot of good info, glad to see your trying to do something big and sticking to your plan.

One quick suggestion and I am sure you have already thought about this but.... I would recommend having the rotating assembly balanced and having the block and head decked to match eachother. Makes a world of difference for reliability with your power goal.

M-Hood
05-01-2013, 09:37 AM
[up]This thread is packed with a lot of good info, glad to see your trying to do something big and sticking to your plan.

One quick suggestion and I am sure you have already thought about this but.... I would recommend having the rotating assembly balanced and having the block and head decked to match eachother. Makes a world of difference for reliability with your power goal.


Don't really want to deck the head/block too much seeing that will increase the compression and make it even easier to have the valves hit the pistons. If building the motor having it balanced is something you want to have done.

nizmosx
05-01-2013, 11:13 AM
i have a set of spare roof rails for an avant. if someone wants to send them out for powdercoat with no down time.

U_know_me
05-01-2013, 11:36 AM
Don't really want to deck the head/block too much seeing that will increase the compression and make it even easier to have the valves hit the pistons. If building the motor having it balanced is something you want to have done.

Decking can be done with minimal change to the height of the head/block, I personally believe that it is a must for anything trying to make this kind of power using a used engine. Over time the block and head in essence warp and become not perfectly flat. This is ok because they usually do this perfectly together over time. The issue is when you separate them they never mate back together perfectly. By decking them you then make them both true and flat to create a perfect mating surface and losing any possibility of blowing a head gasket.

In another life I have personally done this with multiple already high compression honda engines that were built to be boosted.

A good engine shop should have the proper tools to check how level the deck is and should be able get them true with minimal loss of material.
Just my 2c.....

BattleWagon
05-01-2013, 01:54 PM
Decking can be done with minimal change to the height of the head/block, I personally believe that it is a must for anything trying to make this kind of power using a used engine. Over time the block and head in essence warp and become not perfectly flat. This is ok because they usually do this perfectly together over time. The issue is when you separate them they never mate back together perfectly. By decking them you then make them both true and flat to create a perfect mating surface and losing any possibility of blowing a head gasket.

In another life I have personally done this with multiple already high compression honda engines that were built to be boosted.

A good engine shop should have the proper tools to check how level the deck is and should be able get them true with minimal loss of material.
Just my 2c.....

That was my thought on the matter as well, i have been reading an absolute ton about high horsepower builds, there is an insane amount of prep work that can be done before a block is even chosen to be the block to build. X-raying the block for cracks or casting imperfections, checking how square the cylinder bores are with each other and the block itself, ect ect the list goes on.

I am currently researching deburring my block, if there is any advantage with a VW block

U_know_me
05-02-2013, 06:00 AM
That was my thought on the matter as well, i have been reading an absolute ton about high horsepower builds, there is an insane amount of prep work that can be done before a block is even chosen to be the block to build. X-raying the block for cracks or casting imperfections, checking how square the cylinder bores are with each other and the block itself, ect ect the list goes on.
I am currently researching deburring my block, if there is any advantage with a VW block

There really is a lot you can do and a ton of money can be dumped into block prepping and such. Personally, I would deck the head&
block, bore (if you decide to)/ hone the cyl walls, and have the rotating assembly balanced. All that should be plenty to achieve the goals you want, as many have done it with just a hone.

For the deburring I could be wrong because I have only done a very select few VAG builds but with the 1.8t you rarely hear about oil flow issues, or stress issues in the casting from the burrs. Every one I have seen seems to be well casted and have minimal burrs. From chit chatting with the guys at the engine shop about the topic they said that it usually only needs to be done on the larger US engines that were wanting to make extreme amounts of power as they were not always casted at a level to hold up to the stress. I dont think it should be a big worry, unless you spot some places you want to deburr yourself.

M-Hood
05-02-2013, 07:14 AM
Decking can be done with minimal change to the height of the head/block, I personally believe that it is a must for anything trying to make this kind of power using a used engine. Over time the block and head in essence warp and become not perfectly flat. This is ok because they usually do this perfectly together over time. The issue is when you separate them they never mate back together perfectly. By decking them you then make them both true and flat to create a perfect mating surface and losing any possibility of blowing a head gasket.

In another life I have personally done this with multiple already high compression honda engines that were built to be boosted.

A good engine shop should have the proper tools to check how level the deck is and should be able get them true with minimal loss of material.
Just my 2c.....


Which is why it is important to start off with a block/head that are in good shape and not warped. Just have to make sure not to make the deck any lower then it already is stock other wise you have to end up using a thicker gasket and you wouldn't want to end up with the top of the piston coming up above the deck. I guess I am just lucky to have only needed to use 1 block in the last 13+ years.

terraflata
05-03-2013, 06:17 PM
Im coming in a little late in this thread and most questions have been answered, just thought Id chime because your build seems to be close to what Ive been going through. Im 2.0 with a fully built and ported AEB head planning on running a 7670 .92 AR TS into 3+ inch exhaust using an AEM standalone unit fueled by an A1000 Stealth Fuel Cell running -10 Feed and -8 Return lines and using 2000cc Bosch injectors. Ignition will be run by an AEM Twinfire and pencil coils.

As for the 2.0 debate, the advantages are clear, better/larger powerband, more response, more potential. As far as the revving it out, Aaron (I believe) runs his 2.0 past 10K (with solid lifters of course) so mean piston speeds are not the limiting factor.

EFR debate. Cost, simplification of setup, ability to monitor turbine speeds, spool rate all become great reasons to get on board. I wish their were more completed build out there to put the proof on the table, but what can you do. And as it was already pointed out the deduction of a BOV and wastegate, plus plumbing/fab work more than make up for the cost of the turbo.

I went with a line hone, decking, full rotating assembly balancing, bored and honed and clearance for the rods. On the head, decked, pretty intensive port and polish, new guides, seals, full ferrea valvetrain, you know the works. The balancing was basically a must for building a block, the decking was absolute minimal. Everything is port matched.

The fuel cell is not a viable option for many people, but I feel confident in getting around the restrictions on road cars and Quebec is pretty lax on a lot of modifications as long as they are properly executed or you know the right people. No emissions here either. The whole fuel system is designed to comfortably support 1000+hp in case I decide to go crazy and "arm wrestle" Mike H for fastest A4 title [;)]

As far as the standalone I would stay away from it unless like me you are surrounded by tuners and builder with extensive knowledge in AEM, besides there are already other EMS's that would provide you with a much more plug and play solution and better support for the platform.

And for the turbo size you are going, definitely go tubular manifold, Mike knows his shiznit, you will eventually want to step up to one so just avoid the log, buy once and save.

I didnt read anything about clutches, I keep hearing about the CM Super Single, Mike could definitely point you in the right direction on that one though. Ive personally been leaning towards the 034 Twin Tilton Cerametallic clutch kit, but in mentioning that I might be corrected on something more ideal, but I also dont care too much about harshness as Ive already went all stiff/solid/motorsport spec mounts, stripped interior etc. (just re-read and saw on page 1 that clutches was discussed)

Also as far as the whole instrument cluster is concerned I have been looking at speedhut.com
They make custom gauges and gauge kits, the options are basically limitless (Speedos can go past 400kmh, tachs can go to wtv you want, bezel, face, needle, color, style are all options)
Here's the gallery if you want to check some stuff out Gallery (http://www.speedhut.com/gallery/gallery_list.i?cmd=list&galleryid=1) Ive been planning on doing a custom dash rather than having gauge pods on pillars and such, and I have no desire for ICE in my car, just an AUX cable attached to an amp connected to speakers so I dont need to worry about the space the radio usually takes up. I agree I dont like a cluster that doesnt properly display the new levels my car could will obtain.

A lot of repeated info, but something might help considering we are so close in build/power wants.

Bryan

BattleWagon
05-10-2013, 11:23 AM
Im coming in a little late in this thread and most questions have been answered, just thought Id chime because your build seems to be close to what Ive been going through. Im 2.0 with a fully built and ported AEB head planning on running a 7670 .92 AR TS into 3+ inch exhaust using an AEM standalone unit fueled by an A1000 Stealth Fuel Cell running -10 Feed and -8 Return lines and using 2000cc Bosch injectors. Ignition will be run by an AEM Twinfire and pencil coils.

I like your style [;)] If your going standalone with some performance coils, don'y shy away from running MSD. big ports + big turbo + little tiny engine = low velocity at low engine speeds = poor burn quality, less power, ect ect :D I would 100% go MSD if I went down the standalone route. With that kinda fuel system and injector size, i imagine your going e85?

As for the 2.0 debate, the advantages are clear, better/larger powerband, more response, more potential. As far as the revving it out, Aaron (I believe) runs his 2.0 past 10K (with solid lifters of course) so mean piston speeds are not the limiting factor.

There are so many other important factors you must not overlook when it comes to increasing displacement then just piston speed. But luckily for us, we don't have a whole lot of options anyways, so for the 2.0, it has its diminishing returns like any other engine mod, but for what most do with these cars, 2.0 is def money well spent.

EFR debate. Cost, simplification of setup, ability to monitor turbine speeds, spool rate all become great reasons to get on board. I wish their were more completed build out there to put the proof on the table, but what can you do. And as it was already pointed out the deduction of a BOV and wastegate, plus plumbing/fab work more than make up for the cost of the turbo.

I went with a line hone, decking, full rotating assembly balancing, bored and honed and clearance for the rods. On the head, decked, pretty intensive port and polish, new guides, seals, full ferrea valvetrain, you know the works. The balancing was basically a must for building a block, the decking was absolute minimal. Everything is port matched.

Nice, i haven't read stellar reviews with the integrated blow off valve though. Will probably just block it off and run a tial, as for bottom end machine work / assembly, this is my plan of attack. Goal is minimize machine work and costs without any corners being cut.
-hone cylinders
-balanced fsi crank

The more i read about compression ratio the more i lean towards a high comp setup, everyone on this forum loves to talk about timing as if its the only factor with compression, there are many many other things to consider like cylinder pressure decay, expansion ratio, the unique valve size optimal for XX to XX compression ratio, ect ect.

The fuel cell is not a viable option for many people, but I feel confident in getting around the restrictions on road cars and Quebec is pretty lax on a lot of modifications as long as they are properly executed or you know the right people. No emissions here either. The whole fuel system is designed to comfortably support 1000+hp in case I decide to go crazy and "arm wrestle" Mike H for fastest A4 title [;)]

I have my way around emissions aswell, lets just say i know someone on the "inside" hahah, or maybe, i am the person on the inside, hahaha

As far as the standalone I would stay away from it unless like me you are surrounded by tuners and builder with extensive knowledge in AEM, besides there are already other EMS's that would provide you with a much more plug and play solution and better support for the platform.

Truth right here. I would love to get crazy with a standalone and all of it's limitless possibilites, but I are no pro tuner, so that's well out of my budget [=(]

And for the turbo size you are going, definitely go tubular manifold, Mike knows his shiznit, you will eventually want to step up to one so just avoid the log, buy once and save.

I didnt read anything about clutches, I keep hearing about the CM Super Single, Mike could definitely point you in the right direction on that one though. Ive personally been leaning towards the 034 Twin Tilton Cerametallic clutch kit, but in mentioning that I might be corrected on something more ideal, but I also dont care too much about harshness as Ive already went all stiff/solid/motorsport spec mounts, stripped interior etc. (just re-read and saw on page 1 that clutches was discussed)

Also as far as the whole instrument cluster is concerned I have been looking at speedhut.com
They make custom gauges and gauge kits, the options are basically limitless (Speedos can go past 400kmh, tachs can go to wtv you want, bezel, face, needle, color, style are all options)
Here's the gallery if you want to check some stuff out Gallery (http://www.speedhut.com/gallery/gallery_list.i?cmd=list&galleryid=1) Ive been planning on doing a custom dash rather than having gauge pods on pillars and such, and I have no desire for ICE in my car, just an AUX cable attached to an amp connected to speakers so I dont need to worry about the space the radio usually takes up. I agree I dont like a cluster that doesnt properly display the new levels my car could will obtain.

A lot of repeated info, but something might help considering we are so close in build/power wants.

That is pretty awesome, I will def spend some time browsing that gauge website for a setup, so many options! As for the tube, i knew it all along, i just didn't want to accept the fact that if i want big boy powa, i need big boy parts [headbang]


[az]!!!

chris164935
05-16-2013, 10:01 AM
This build looks really good, but I think the biggest thing holding you back is the engine management. I really feel the best way to take advantage of your build (and not cut corners, as you say) would be to go stand-alone. I have a nice SM2 with a CDI, coils, and even a harness to plug an IQ3 display dash into the SM2. But, you are welcome to go any route you choose. My main point is stand-alone will allow you squeeze the maximum potential out of this build, I feel.

I had daily driven a 1.9L (ran with 83mm pistons) for a few years, and, despite having a horrible or non-existent tune, off-boost driving was pretty good. With the 1.9L setup, you can save money by not purchasing a crank, 83mm pistons are the same price as 81.5mm pistons, and you'd have to bore out your block if you went 2L anyways.

As for rod/main bearings, I'd highly recommend going with Mahle Motorsports' bearings. They are nearly the same price as the ACL race bearings, however, they come in the correct 5 channeled/5 smooth main bearings and a much better design from what I have read.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5711910-Mahle-Motorsport-Race-Bearings
http://www.intengineering.com/rebuild-oe-parts?engine=174&manufacturer=118

BattleWagon
05-21-2013, 09:24 AM
This build looks really good, but I think the biggest thing holding you back is the engine management. I really feel the best way to take advantage of your build (and not cut corners, as you say) would be to go stand-alone. I have a nice SM2 with a CDI, coils, and even a harness to plug an IQ3 display dash into the SM2. But, you are welcome to go any route you choose. My main point is stand-alone will allow you squeeze the maximum potential out of this build, I feel.

I had daily driven a 1.9L (ran with 83mm pistons) for a few years, and, despite having a horrible or non-existent tune, off-boost driving was pretty good. With the 1.9L setup, you can save money by not purchasing a crank, 83mm pistons are the same price as 81.5mm pistons, and you'd have to bore out your block if you went 2L anyways.

As for rod/main bearings, I'd highly recommend going with Mahle Motorsports' bearings. They are nearly the same price as the ACL race bearings, however, they come in the correct 5 channeled/5 smooth main bearings and a much better design from what I have read.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5711910-Mahle-Motorsport-Race-Bearings
http://www.intengineering.com/rebuild-oe-parts?engine=174&manufacturer=118

thanks

As for the engine management, I don't feel sticking with the stock ECU is exactly cutting corners, as rather just going a different route, now if I wasn't wide band me7.5 I wouldn't even think of bothering with it, but the engine management we have from the factory is quite adequate even for high horse power builds, not as high as a stand alone obviously due to its maps, but more then enough for then what I need. Plus our knock sensors are life saves, especially when running big boost on meth inj, even though there are a few stand alones that offer knock sensor capabilities, none come anywhere close to how well the OE's have got their knock sensor's to perform. I know I can squeeze probably over 7 with this setup and a stand alone, but my plan is to kind of go over kill on my turbo size slightly so I can run slightly less boost and not quite as aggressive of a tune to have a more reliable 550-600 HP with 500+ ft lbs of torque with a redline to 8k, I have seen it done on a 4g63 2.0 so i know its just a matter of the right parts, and most importantly, cams. I also recently decided I am probably going to run meth, race fuel is corrosive as balls to rubber and for some reason this slipped my mind, unless of course you want to spend big bucks on the newest gen of race fuels.

Funny how times change, FSI cranks are insane cheap now, and machine work still isn't, I can just source an FSI crank for a couple hundred bucks, and do a stock bore with rehone given it is within specs / a 2.0 crank then drop in rods and pistons and be done. In my position I feel like it will be a very economic and logical approach to building my engine while still increasing displacement while I am in there, all while keeping costs at a minimum and worst case scenario swapping everything to another block will be in be much more wallet friendly.

And cool thanks for the advice on the bearings, any way you could post a link or explain on what you read about them? I am very interested! [race]

chris164935
05-21-2013, 11:58 AM
Links are in my original post.

Not sure about the machine shops in your area, but here it's roughly $350 to have a block bored, honed, resurfaced, cleaned, and pressure tested. I don't think I'd hold my breath waiting to find an FSI crank for that price any time soon. But, I guess it depends on your timeline. There is always the AEG cast crankshaft, which might be easier to come by for cheap and within a nice time frame.
Also, stroker pistons are more expensive and if you're going stock bore, they are most likely a custom application which would require about 4-6 weeks of waiting for those (the only off-the-shelf stroker pistons I could find were 83mm bore).

I hate to say it, but the minimum costs you are willing to pay might be lower than the minimum costs it would take to build a 550-600 hp motor. However, I am rooting for you. Good luck!

BattleWagon
05-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Links are in my original post.

Not sure about the machine shops in your area, but here it's roughly $350 to have a block bored, honed, resurfaced, cleaned, and pressure tested. I don't think I'd hold my breath waiting to find an FSI crank for that price any time soon. But, I guess it depends on your timeline. There is always the AEG cast crankshaft, which might be easier to come by for cheap and within a nice time frame.
Also, stroker pistons are more expensive and if you're going stock bore, they are most likely a custom application which would require about 4-6 weeks of waiting for those (the only off-the-shelf stroker pistons I could find were 83mm bore).

I hate to say it, but the minimum costs you are willing to pay might be lower than the minimum costs it would take to build a 550-600 hp motor. However, I am rooting for you. Good luck!

lolol I guess i am blind [headbang] thanks for the info!

And well darn, i wasn't aware of the fact that no company has an off the shelf stroker piston available for us yet, I figured they would seeing its a popular route.

I am currently still deciding on which route i want to take, get stupid as shit in a single turbo 2.7 or BAT 2.0/1.8/whatever. the more math i do the more i lean towards a 2.7, it is just such a commonly available engine you can run at 350 horse power to 300k and still be alive and kickin. The price of having to go through the ENTIRE system on a 1.8 vs 2.7 isnt really that much different. and if i am gonna spend 10 grand on a hot rod, why not have 800hp instead of 600? I love my 1.8 to death but the 2.7t is a fire breathing dragon just waiting to be released from its cage hahaha [drool]

M-Hood
05-22-2013, 08:59 PM
No one makes OTS 81mm stroker pistons, smallest I know of are the CP 82mm. So if you wanted 81mm stroker pistons they would have to be custom made.