C5 A6 4.2 Project Car Advice - New Member

[kapkanimd]

Hey guys,

I am new to the Audi world with buying a 2000 A6 4.2 (with only 102k miles on it) to work on as a project car in hopes to have an extra fun car and/or sell it. I have been posting on AudiWorld and they have been great over there (and I apologize for forum whoring to those of you that are on both), but I am looking for more opinions and this forum seems rather helpful in the technical sense. So let me summarize my situation. I bought the car from a guy who said him and an audi/vw mechanic bought along with like 6 others to fix and resell. He claimed the original problem was a coolant leak so the mechanic changed the water pump and timing belt. He apparently was taking too long so they 'repossessed' it from him with the whole front end off. As I received it, I verified the timing appeared correct and there was indeed a new timing belt on as was the accessory belt (appeared to still be the old one though. All the plugs were pulled and a new set of valve covers were there as if his next intention was to replace them. So I got the car to my shop/garage and all the parts appear to be there to put it back together. Since the original problem was the coolant leak, I got everything ready to change out the oil cooler pipe incase that happened to be the problem. I drained the oil to find there was pretty much none in there (maybe mechanic drained it). So I dropped oil pan to take a peak and the oil baffle was completely melted and molded in the shape of the pan (maybe someone used torch to get pan off in past). Not so good part was noticing the melted plastic inside the oil pick up screen... Worried about seized engine, I cranked it by hand and it seems fine.. Pulled one valve cover and everything looked ok as far as I can see. Was advised to do a leak down test, so I did, and it appeared to fail miserably (using 3gal compressor and harbor freight tester) thought I find it hard to judge with every hose, oil pan, valve cover, etc. pulled off. Which brings me to my situation now and me seeking advice on what to do next.

I have everything I need to put it back together and give it a try or repeat leak down test. The problem is if it fails again or doesn't work (engine is bad) I just wasted $100+ in fluids/sealants/parts that I could have otherwise returned. Another alternative is to remove a head and see what is going on. It will cost me nothing but time and if turns out good I can replace all the seals for around $200 and I have the peace of mind it is good to go. Alternatively if it needs new valves/heads/block/etc. depending on repair costs I might give up on the engine anyways. Another option is ditch the engine all together and find a known working replacement (~$1000?). My final option would be just parting the car out as it is and slowly make some money off the thing.

Keeping in mind I only paid $800 for the car (+$75 for tow), I do not mind spending some money to fix it ($100s - $1,200) assuming it will be a great working car. That being said, I still do not know the condition of the transmission and it needs a few other things (fender, front bumper, drivers seat, and other small parts). If you have any tests or other recommendations please feel free. I am a self taught mechanic and can usually figure out anything. I have been working on cars (for fun) for nearly 15 years and anything I do I will do myself so just parts costs are involved. So what do you think...?

Here is a link to the first picture in my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/78047866@N05/8666677670
Just click through to see pictures of the car, my progress, it's condition, leak down test results, etc.

[B1GHWX]

You will spend much, much, more than your $1200 budget to get it back to a good working car.

If you have the time (lots and lots of it) it would be a good project. You would be no further down the hole, to pull the head and see what story she has to tell.

[kapkanimd]

You will spend much, much, more than your $1200 budget to get it back to a good working car.

If you have the time (lots and lots of it) it would be a good project. You would be no further down the hole, to pull the head and see what story she has to tell.

Can I ask what you are basing that off of (new engine, new trans, etc.)? Not saying you are wrong, just curious. According to your posts you don't even own an Audi... I still consider myself way ahead in this car given I only paid $800 and I can part it out. I do not mind spending more than $1,200 my point was simply I am not going to spend more than the car is worth parting out. Doing the work myself and being relatively good at scrounging up parts I think I should have no problem getting this going. I know it will never be like new again, but it should be good to go. BTW the picture of exterior and interior look a lot worse than they are. That was how I got it and after I cleaned it up it looks 100% better. The interior is nearly perfect except drivers seat and door panel.

[Widebody4.2]

If 1200 is your cap part it out. Junkyard motor will be around 800-900 even if you canabalize the shit motor and swap over the new TB stuff. Fluids gaskets ect your at your 1200 cap and you haven't found a bumper or a fender. Not to mention its pre facelift so tranny failure is in the scope.

[kapkanimd]

If 1200 is your cap part it out. Junkyard motor will be around 800-900 even if you canabalize the shit motor and swap over the new TB stuff. Fluids gaskets ect your at your 1200 cap and you haven't found a bumper or a fender. Not to mention its pre facelift so tranny failure is in the scope.

Thanks for the response. $1,200 isn't my cap per say I just threw that out there (see my previous post). I am not worried at all about the body work at this point, I might already have that covered. My question still remains on what to do next with the current motor. How can I be sure this motor is shit at the moment? Do I pull a head or do I put it together and test it? I am not looking for a daily driver car that I want for the rest of my life. I have a car, this is just a project to do in my spare time. As of now I have everything I need to put it together and see what happens, but I would rather not if simply pulling the head will give me all the answers I need.

[Widebody4.2]

Thanks for the response. $1,200 isn't my cap per say I just threw that out there (see my previous post). I am not worried at all about the body work at this point, I might already have that covered. My question still remains on what to do next with the current motor. How can I be sure this motor is shit at the moment? Do I pull a head or do I put it together and test it? I am not looking for a daily driver car that I want for the rest of my life. I have a car, this is just a project to do in my spare time. As of now I have everything I need to put it together and see what happens, but I would rather not if simply pulling the head will give me all the answers I need.

Price a boneyard motor if it failed leak down miserably the rings are prob gone. Or the cylinders are scored. IMHO it's not worth pulling apart. Even if you pull it apart gaskets time energy to put back together your prob pretty close to the cost of a used motor.

[kapkanimd]

There is a junk yard not to far from me that has one with 162,xxx miles but says call for price. I can't imagine that one will not need any work.. This motor only has 102k on it, if I take it a part and it turns out to be ok I can get a whole gasket set, bolts, etc. for under $200. This was my first leak down test I have ever done using tools from harbor freight so I cannot claim the numbers I got were completely accurate. I tested it on my 2008 civic that just had a new block put in by the dealership and it showed 40% which doesn't seem right to me. Either way, like I said even if I take the head a part the only cost is time and at least I will have a definitive answer. I am not against getting a new motor, but spending that only to find it needs a new transmission doesn't sound like a great deal to me. If I can fix this engine and worst case need to rebuild the transmission for around $600 then I am better off. I think if I can confirm this engine is dead I might just start parting out or sell it outright as a parts car.

[lucio_liu]

There is a junk yard not to far from me that has one with 162,xxx miles but says call for price. I can't imagine that one will not need any work.. This motor only has 102k on it, if I take it a part and it turns out to be ok I can get a whole gasket set, bolts, etc. for under $200. This was my first leak down test I have ever done using tools from harbor freight so I cannot claim the numbers I got were completely accurate. I tested it on my 2008 civic that just had a new block put in by the dealership and it showed 40% which doesn't seem right to me. Either way, like I said even if I take the head a part the only cost is time and at least I will have a definitive answer. I am not against getting a new motor, but spending that only to find it needs a new transmission doesn't sound like a great deal to me. If I can fix this engine and worst case need to rebuild the transmission for around $600 then I am better off. I think if I can confirm this engine is dead I might just start parting out or sell it outright as a parts car.

if I were you I would part it out just to make my life easier. To be honest, I doubt $2000 would get it back to working conditon.

I am not saying it wasn't right to do it as a project car, just doesn't sound like it is worthing.

[redneck truck]

Hey man, bummed to hear about your purchase; hopefully you dont have much in it. Just putting 2 and 2 together here, car was dumped during a reactive cooling system overhaul. This means it obviously was overheated. More evidence: melted plastic baffle, failed leak down test, and plugs were already out because PO did a compression check to confirm the motor was cooked. Your engine block will make a great coffee table (see my album) and the heads can possibly be skimmed and new seats cut. Buy a running 4.2 car and this can be your spare parts car (a very good idea to have) and chalk this up to a learning experience.

And in case my credibility is in question, I also own an a 4.2. Good luck!

[kapkanimd]

Hey man, bummed to hear about your purchase; hopefully you dont have much in it. Just putting 2 and 2 together here, car was dumped during a reactive cooling system overhaul. This means it obviously was overheated. More evidence: melted plastic baffle, failed leak down test, and plugs were already out because PO did a compression check to confirm the motor was cooked. Your engine block will make a great coffee table (see my album) and the heads can possibly be skimmed and new seats cut. Buy a running 4.2 car and this can be your spare parts car (a very good idea to have) and chalk this up to a learning experience.

And in case my credibility is in question, I also own an a 4.2. Good luck!

Thanks for the response, I only really have $800 and some change into the car so I know I am ahead with parting it out. I still don't really want to give up on her though.. I think I will pull the driver's side head and maybe a piston to see what is going one inside. Does anyone have any absolute negatives to even attempting a rebuild? Depending what I find I don't see why it would be impossible to do. I can get a block if the cylinders end up being bad, I can replace the rings if that is a problem, and same with the valves. Even if it cost me $500+ in parts I don't see the downside to it. It still not be perfect, but I would still be in it for less than $2k. I'll contact that junk yard with the motor just in case to see what the story is with it.

[redneck truck]

I'm on my phone so searching is a pain, but look up the Audi alusil block rebuild self-study pdf for an idea of what kind of tools and processes a rebuild entails.

As for the value, yeah, you'd make a killing parting it, but you'd probably be better off parting it if it were in known working condition, so I can see where you're going with that. I opted out of the $200 trans fluid change on my a6 and swapped to manual instead, so you can imagine what my take would be.

I pulled a Touareg AXQ motor apart and still have the complete cylinder heads and the rods and pistons sitting, so if you think you might need either, let me know. I also kept every bolt and gasket, and they're all from a motor that wasn't run for more than a few minutes, so while reusing those parts is never ideal, it will save you some cash if you end up scrapping the project.

[kapkanimd]

I'm on my phone so searching is a pain, but look up the Audi alusil block rebuild self-study pdf for an idea of what kind of tools and processes a rebuild entails.

As for the value, yeah, you'd make a killing parting it, but you'd probably be better off parting it if it were in known working condition, so I can see where you're going with that. I opted out of the $200 trans fluid change on my a6 and swapped to manual instead, so you can imagine what my take would be.

I pulled a Touareg AXQ motor apart and still have the complete cylinder heads and the rods and pistons sitting, so if you think you might need either, let me know. I also kept every bolt and gasket, and they're all from a motor that wasn't run for more than a few minutes, so while reusing those parts is never ideal, it will save you some cash if you end up scrapping the project.

thanks! I will pull the head and see what I am working with, will advise everyone after that.

[Scotty@Advanced]

if the engine got hot enough to melt the baffle tray, then it's toast. Unless you have a very large budget, I'd look at a salvage yard engine as to fully overhaul the V8 your looking at 4 grand easily....

[kapkanimd]

if the engine got hot enough to melt the baffle tray, then it's toast. Unless you have a very large budget, I'd look at a salvage yard engine as to fully overhaul the V8 your looking at 4 grand easily....

can you explain that? I never suggested I would replace everything and make it like new. For all I know it just needs some valves and maybe piston rings. I won't know anything until I get it apart so I am not going to make a decision until then.

[Scotty@Advanced]

can you explain that? I never suggested I would replace everything and make it like new. For all I know it just needs some valves and maybe piston rings. I won't know anything until I get it apart so I am not going to make a decision until then.

I would say at a minimum your looking at:

Piston rings (~100 per hole).
Rod bearings ($200)
Head work ($300-$500 per head)
Replace all gaskets/plastic/rubber in the engine including cam chain tensioners $2k+
timing belt/rollers (it too would get HOT), grease will boil out of the rollers.

Your also looking at potentially replacing the fuel injectors (plastic), the intake manifold (plastic flappers inside it)

This is all assuming that your cylinders/pistons are not scored, which chances are good they are.

Mind you I'm not hating on your plans, but your cost estimates sound like they are based off of a small block V8, which you can rebuild for $300.00, not an Audi V8.

I've seen one V8 engine overheated to the point where it shut down and the cost to repair exceeded the value of the vehicle, luckily for the owner his failure was due to road debris passing through the grille and radiator and his insurance company totaled the car.

[kapkanimd]

I would say at a minimum your looking at:

Piston rings (~100 per hole).
Rod bearings ($200)
Head work ($300-$500 per head)
Replace all gaskets/plastic/rubber in the engine including cam chain tensioners $2k+
timing belt/rollers (it too would get HOT), grease will boil out of the rollers.

Your also looking at potentially replacing the fuel injectors (plastic), the intake manifold (plastic flappers inside it)

This is all assuming that your cylinders/pistons are not scored, which chances are good they are.

Mind you I'm not hating on your plans, but your cost estimates sound like they are based off of a small block V8, which you can rebuild for $300.00, not an Audi V8.

I've seen one V8 engine overheated to the point where it shut down and the cost to repair exceeded the value of the vehicle, luckily for the owner his failure was due to road debris passing through the grille and radiator and his insurance company totaled the car.

No offense but your estimates are a bit high (I have seen rings as low as $16 per cylinder), plus premature seeing as I don't even know what needs to be replaced or not. I am sure you know a lot more about engines than me, and I appreciate your input. If I were to rebuild it I would not be trying to find the best parts money can buy and paying retail for all of them. I just want a running car and there are plenty of part that can be sourced from a variety of places. If this turns out to be more damage than I am willing to pay for then I will part it out or try and get a cheap motor.

[Scotty@Advanced]

No offense but your estimates are a bit high (I have seen rings as low as $16 per cylinder), plus premature seeing as I don't even know what needs to be replaced or not. I am sure you know a lot more about engines than me, and I appreciate your input. If I were to rebuild it I would not be trying to find the best parts money can buy and paying retail for all of them. I just want a running car and there are plenty of part that can be sourced from a variety of places. If this turns out to be more damage than I am willing to pay for then I will part it out or try and get a cheap motor.

No offense taken, Good luck with this!

BTW there is only one set of your $16.00 rings from Rock Auto.

[kapkanimd]

No offense taken, Good luck with this!

BTW there is only one set of your $16.00 rings from Rock Auto.

Haha, you found one of my sources! My point was that they can be found for significantly less that $100 each. No sense in me getting ahead of myself though. Like I said, I will open it up and see what I am working with and then post my findings. If there is a consensus to abandon I will do so. I am kind of wanting the satisfaction of rebuilding my first motor though so I might go through with it even if it is difficult.

[rollerton]

My best wishes to you on your project! It's people who have more motivation than common sense that get us ahead in this game- sorry, I mean that as a compliment. I find the same thing in myself more often than I like.
But- my prediction- if it was overheated and you start tearing it apart is that you'll find more marginal parts on the engine than good ones. Many of the parts will seem useable, and you'll be tempted to get by on the cheap...and all those suspicious parts will eventually break. And you'll wish you walked away. You'll get some work done, possibly even get it on the road and everytime you fix something, something else will leak or break.
And don't fool yourself- the parts are NOT cheap. I had to fix the leaky oil cooler pipe this weekend. $55 for an o-ring, I searched for 3 weeks for an alternative. Don't get crazy ideas about resale value either- there are many decent 4.2's for sale for the $4k range and they take a while to sell.
If you want it, then do it. Keep us posted, maybe with some more diagnosis you'll find it's not as bad as it sounds?

[4xtaco]

You paid $800 for the car which is a reasonable price considering what you could get parting it.
It sounds like the motor was overheated and toasted (yes I have a 4.2).

If it was my car and my $- I would find a replacement salvage engine and freshen it up. Sounds like you have the capabilities.
Long run it would be less cash put out... especially if the trans is questionable. A TIP rebuild with labor will run you around $4-5k alone- unless this is something you can take on yourself as well. The labor is what kills you on these.
The body parts alone you are looking are going to run you petty penny to fix/replace properly- front bumper will run you around $900 for a new one. A fender will be $130-$180 used for the aluminum wide body used.

[kapkanimd]

You paid $800 for the car which is a reasonable price considering what you could get parting it.
It sounds like the motor was overheated and toasted (yes I have a 4.2).

If it was my car and my $- I would find a replacement salvage engine and freshen it up. Sounds like you have the capabilities.
Long run it would be less cash put out... especially if the trans is questionable. A TIP rebuild with labor will run you around $4-5k alone- unless this is something you can take on yourself as well. The labor is what kills you on these.
The body parts alone you are looking are going to run you petty penny to fix/replace properly- front bumper will run you around $900 for a new one. A fender will be $130-$180 used for the aluminum wide body used.

Thanks for the response. Yes I would be doing all of the work on my own including a transmission rebuild if necessary. There is no rush on the car and I just work on it in my free time when I feel like it. The front bumper might be hard, but I might have someone local wanting to part theirs out so I am not worried about it right now. If it turns out to be too much to mechanically fix it then I wont bother worrying about fixing the body.

[kapkanimd]

My best wishes to you on your project! It's people who have more motivation than common sense that get us ahead in this game- sorry, I mean that as a compliment. I find the same thing in myself more often than I like.
But- my prediction- if it was overheated and you start tearing it apart is that you'll find more marginal parts on the engine than good ones. Many of the parts will seem useable, and you'll be tempted to get by on the cheap...and all those suspicious parts will eventually break. And you'll wish you walked away. You'll get some work done, possibly even get it on the road and everytime you fix something, something else will leak or break.
And don't fool yourself- the parts are NOT cheap. I had to fix the leaky oil cooler pipe this weekend. $55 for an o-ring, I searched for 3 weeks for an alternative. Don't get crazy ideas about resale value either- there are many decent 4.2's for sale for the $4k range and they take a while to sell.
If you want it, then do it. Keep us posted, maybe with some more diagnosis you'll find it's not as bad as it sounds?

I definitely understand it might be more than I think and I am fine with parting it out for profit if I need to. Trust me reading these forums has definitely opened my eyes to never buying an Audi - sorry. BTW I planned on doing the same oil cooler pipe on this one and have all of the parts. Did you end up buying the whole o-ring kit? If so you did not need to as you can buy the figure 8 o-ring separate (still $25). I just have a way of fixing things and finding parts I need cheaper than most expect. Again I will keep everyone informed. I ordered the head bolt 'special' tool and will likely have the head off on Friday.

[AudiA4_20T]

I have an RS6 motor and I'm down here in FL...

[rollerton]

BTW I planned on doing the same oil cooler pipe on this one and have all of the parts. Did you end up buying the whole o-ring kit? If so you did not need to as you can buy the figure 8 o-ring separate (still $25).

Yeah..I thought about just buying the figure-8 seal and the pipe. But this car is my daily driver and I didn't want to take the entire thing apart and then find out I need one or two of the other o-rings and be stuck,--over $20.
I didn't need the other o-rings, but I can guarantee i would have needed them if I didn't have them.

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

Welcome to AZ and good luck with your project. I recently picked up a 2000 4.2 with a blown trans to swap my 2.7tt and 6spd into.

Don't know where you're located but I'm in NY and will be selling the 4.2 engine, has 102k miles and ran fine no known issues.

I'll also be selling the front bumper, it's white and in mint condition.

On the other hand, if you decide to part out, I'd be interested in the carpet as the 4.2 I picked up had the tan interior which I'm swapping out for a black/burgundy interior from my current 2.7 a6. Apparently the trans tunnel is larger on the 4.2's so the carpet is different between v6 and v8 models.

Anyways, good luck with whatever you decide.

[4xtaco]

^^^^ There you go [:)]


Then the trans rebuild for parts will be less than $1k with you doing the work.

Dude- it sounds like a fun project. It will pay off with smiles.

[kapkanimd]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to update everyone. I have not given up on the car, just had a lot come up and a death in the family, but I am going to try and get back to it now. Going through the head removal process now and all that is left is pretty much unbolting the head. Got the intake manifold off and so far so good. I am going to try and slip the timing belt off the one cam in an attempt not to mess up timing and just do one head at a time.. Not sure if this is really going to happen, but no big deal if it doesn't work. Here are the obligatory updated pictures:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9179822250_9bebc2834a.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/9179823964_f1dc602b23.jpg

[Scotty@Advanced]

I'm not sure why you're going to do one head at a time, it's no faster/cheaper than doing both at the same time.

[redneck truck]

Same novice attempt at doing timing job without proper tools.

[v8a6]

yeah, just buy/rent the v8 lock bar. You don't want to do a timing belt reinstall without it. I went through a lot of crap because someone didnt do my timing belt job correctly, and they were using the tool. Without it, it's a crap shoot.

[redneck truck]

It's not a crap shoot. It is a certainty that it won't be correct. This is not a 1.8T.

[kapkanimd]

geeze.. never said I didn't have the proper tools nor that I was not going to double check the timing regardless... If the recommendation is to just do both then that's fine. I am not anywhere near that point yet anyway.. Still have to determine if the engine is any good at all still

[Scotty@Advanced]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9179822250_9bebc2834a.jpg

Unless I'm mistaken your serpentine belt is routed incorrectly.This could be what caused the overheat. Belt slippage.

This is how it is supposed to be:

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/images/a6_4.2_serp_belt.png

[redneck truck]

Good eye! I always had trouble remembering how that went. What helps me is that the belt stretches horizontally along the A/C condenser line.

[kapkanimd]

Unless I'm mistaken your serpentine belt is routed incorrectly.This could be what caused the overheat. Belt slippage.



Interesting... I did not put it on, that was supposedly done by the 'audi' mechanic that did the timing belt.... I am not sure at what point this car overheated.. I was never told it did, the only problem this car was supposed to have was a coolant leak...

[Scotty@Advanced]

Good eye! I always had trouble remembering how that went. What helps me is that the belt stretches horizontally along the A/C condenser line.

yeah there are 3 or 4 wrong ways and one right way.. However with the stock belt it would only be tensioned properly put on the correct way. I guess the "Audi" mechanic wasn't much of one....

[kapkanimd]

well, I am throwing in the towel on the engine and the car.. I went to take the head off and the 6point tool for the head bolt's is wrong (it appears to be 12pt)... I am thinking the heads have been removed in the past and the bolts changed. I took off passenger valve cover and there is evidence someone had been inside before (scratching every where and a leaf in there!). In addition the cam timings did not line up and one of the cam tensioners did not have a shoe on it! I will be parting the car out now and will start another thread to get that going. If anyone is interested in parts just look for the thread.

[Scotty@Advanced]

the factory head bolt tool fro the V8 is indeed a 12 point bit. The 6 point or "Ribe" style are used in some V6's and the four cylinders.

[kapkanimd]

the factory head bolt tool fro the V8 is indeed a 12 point bit. The 6 point or "Ribe" style are used in some V6's and the four cylinders.

interesting, someone linked me to the tool and I bought the 6 point.. oh well, still just going to part the car out, just don't have the time to mess with it at this point

[kapkanimd]

http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=94836