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View Full Version : 2.0T tuned vs 3.0T stock



BirdmanQ5
01-20-2013, 06:26 PM
Hey all,

Met a fellow Q5 owner in the area who just picked up a brand new Q5 3.0T S-Line, so we decided to see how our cars stack up against each other, safely of course.

I pitted my GIAC tuned Q5 2.0T S-Line's turbocharged 4-banger against his stock 3.0T supercharged V6. Ever since the new engine came out, I've been dreading that our 2.0's have become obsolete to some degree.

After some pulls on empty roads ranging from 60 to 140, 80-140, or 50-100, our cars were neck and neck. As long as I kept the car at 3rd or 4th before I punched it, the turbo didn't lag at all and didn't fall behind.

Long story short, looks like a tuned 2.0T is pretty well equivalent to a 3.0T, with the difference being more torque vs better high end power and quicker off the line, respectively.

Just wanted to share my observations, we'll be sure to get a video or two at some point for a better comparison.


Cheers,

Alex

http://forums.audiworld.com/signaturepics/sigpic222167_2.gif

ThunderDent
01-20-2013, 07:01 PM
You know you want to go all K04 ....

He won't be able to keep up then :)

BirdmanQ5
01-20-2013, 07:21 PM
It would be easier (and cheaper) to throw a handful of tacks out the window, that'll slow em down. :D

rayray
01-20-2013, 07:22 PM
It would be easier (and cheaper) to throw a handful of tacks out the window, that'll slow em down. :D

Lol! [>_<]

D_Frost
01-20-2013, 07:41 PM
It would be easier (and cheaper) to throw a handful of tacks out the window, that'll slow em down. :D

Now I know how I can beat GTRs and 911's.... ;)

I believe the GIAC tune yields higher power than APR. Kinda curious what numbers the GIAC tune puts out...

ThunderDent
01-20-2013, 08:14 PM
Really looking forward to the video Alex. Your GoPro is getting a workout. Good investment!

BirdmanQ5
01-20-2013, 09:01 PM
Really looking forward to the video Alex. Your GoPro is getting a workout. Good investment!

Not EVEN. There's been so little snow so I can't take it to the ski hill, it mostly just sits in my glovebox. Tonight I couldn't find the SD card so I didn't bring it but I'll definitely have it next time.

PaperishPlastic
01-20-2013, 09:11 PM
Was his car broken in? How much lighter is your car?

BirdmanQ5
01-20-2013, 09:13 PM
Was his car broken in? How much lighter is your car?

Pretty sure his car has been broken in. Neither car has had any weight reduction done, just software and new brakes on mine.

Der grosse Mann
01-23-2013, 01:05 PM
The 2013 Q5 3.0T weighs 4,354 lbs and the 2.0T weighs 4,079 lbs -- a 275 lb penalty for the 3.0T. That's like carrying der große Mann around on the hood! I think a modestly-turned 2.0T, at say 250 bhp, is gonna be neck-and-neck with a 3.0T. The full 295 lb-ft of torque in the 3.0T comes on 600 rpm higher than the stock 2.0T's 258 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm, so by really loading the torque converter, you can probably get off the line a bit quicker even with the stock 2.0T. A modestly tuned one, like I said, should more than hold its own with the 3.0T. Stock they're both limited to 130 mph.

I have not had a chance to log any objective numbers (0-100-0, dyno'd whp, etc.) on my lusty, K04-ed 2.0T (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/510652-Recently-Completed-2011-Audi-Q5-2-0T-project-at-EuroTech-MS) (it's on vacation in a heated garage), but I can't wait to come across an SQ5 this summer so I can eat her for lunch. Seat of pants tells me I'm north of 340 bhp, maybe quite a bit north.

The 2.0T F-R weight balance is much better than the 3.0T's, and way better than the retired and unlamented 3.2's.

BirdmanQ5
01-23-2013, 01:08 PM
But I can't wait to come across an SQ5 this summer so I can eat her for lunch.

All I'm thinking about is the look on the drivers face when they pull up next to you in their brand new SQ5 and you destroy them off the line. Then I imagine the dealer's surprise as they return the SQ5 and demand a faster Q

ThunderDent
01-23-2013, 01:15 PM
The 2013 Q5 3.0T weighs 4,354 lbs and the 2.0T weighs 4,079 lbs -- a 275 lb penalty for the 3.0T. That's like carrying der große Mann around on the hood! I think a modestly-turned 2.0T, at say 250 bhp, is gonna be neck-and-neck with a 3.0T. The full 295 lb-ft of torque in the 3.0T comes on 600 rpm higher than the stock 2.0T's 258 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm, so by really loading the torque converter, you can probably get off the line a bit quicker even with the stock 2.0T. A modestly tuned one, like I said, should more than hold its own with the 3.0T. Stock they're both limited to 130 mph.

I have not had a chance to log any objective numbers (0-100-0, dyno'd whp, etc.) on my lusty, K04-ed 2.0T (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/510652-Recently-Completed-2011-Audi-Q5-2-0T-project-at-EuroTech-MS) (it's on vacation in a heated garage), but I can't wait to come across an SQ5 this summer so I can eat her for lunch. Seat of pants tells me I'm north of 340 bhp, maybe quite a bit north.

The 2.0T F-R weight balance is much better than the 3.0T's, and way better than the retired and unlamented 3.2's.

Glad to see another K04. With my HFC and exhaust I'm looking at 365 hp. It definitely goes!

GTMRS4
01-24-2013, 03:33 PM
What happens when they tune the 3.0T?

nick71692
01-24-2013, 05:51 PM
game over thats what

BirdmanQ5
01-25-2013, 06:48 AM
Yeah probably hahaha

adbender
01-25-2013, 01:57 PM
What happens when they tune the 3.0T?

my thoughts exactly...

Im getting a 2.0T so i dont get tempted to make it compete with the S4.

Der grosse Mann
01-27-2013, 07:04 AM
A supercharged engine is more limited in its tuning possibilities than a turbocharged engine. Swapping out a supercharger is a much bigger deal than a turbocharger. Hence for a given $, you get more bang tuning a 2.0 Turbo than a 3.0 Supercharger.

BirdmanQ5
01-27-2013, 07:13 AM
That was my thinking when I picked the 2.0T over the 3.2, I figured it would be easier to tune than to add a turbocharger or supercharger (if it's even feasible). Drove my car on reserve tank last night (which I never do) and couldn't believe how much peppier it is without any gas weighing it down.

JonS4
01-29-2013, 09:57 AM
A supercharged engine is more limited in its tuning possibilities than a turbocharged engine. Swapping out a supercharger is a much bigger deal than a turbocharger. Hence for a given $, you get more bang tuning a 2.0 Turbo than a 3.0 Supercharger.

I'd agree in general but we ended up going 3.0T in the missus' Q5 simply due to how smooth it is. It's an exceptional V6 in that way. Even more so with the tuned 3.0T. I have been blown away with how delightfully smooth the 3.0T is on my S4 tuned with APR Stage 2. And plenty fast, over 400 HP. I doubt the missus will even want to tune her Q but smooth she likes.

ThunderDent
01-29-2013, 02:35 PM
We have a reserve tank? Guess I've never gotten that low. Does it shift over to it automatically?

idale
01-29-2013, 04:03 PM
We have a reserve tank? Guess I've never gotten that low. Does it shift over to it automatically?

It's not an actual reserve tank, the gauge just shows "E" before you're actually empty. My Passat had about 2 gallons that it held in reserve, so the gauge showed a range of around 14 gallons, not sure how much the Q5 ignores.

VroomVroom
01-29-2013, 06:12 PM
... not sure how much the Q5 ignores.
Darnit, I just read this - it's on the capacities page in the owner's manual. I want to say it's 1.8 US gallons, but don't quote me.

BirdmanQ5
01-29-2013, 06:45 PM
I think that's about right. I think the tank is 60L and I usually end up putting in 62 or so

Boom
02-06-2013, 06:34 PM
I noticed on VWvortex that the K04's are causing problems on the new 2.0T tsi motors. I can't remember what the issue is, maybe fueling issue or injector issues. But my question is, has anyone had any problems with the K04 with the 2.0T valve lift?

Operator
02-06-2013, 06:41 PM
I noticed on VWvortex that the K04's are causing problems on the new 2.0T tsi motors. I can't remember what the issue is, maybe fueling issue or injector issues. But my question is, has anyone had any problems with the K04 with the 2.0T valve lift?

You might also ask in the B8 A4 section, as they may have a few more people with the K04.

BirdmanQ5
02-06-2013, 06:48 PM
Yeah, there's only 1 guy brave enough to K04 on these forums... haha

ThunderDent
02-06-2013, 07:12 PM
There are 2 of us that have done it.

So far no problems.

Boom
02-06-2013, 07:28 PM
I found this post about the issue I was talking about. Link (http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50417)

I would like to start off by saying most people here have GTIs and we have not seen this issue on the GTI. Mainly we've seen the issue on GLI, Passat and CC engines with the new MED17.5.2 ECU. However, if you continue reading, you'll see the ECU has no bearing on the issue as originally speculated.



-------




Background:

Recently it has come to APR’s attention some 2.0 TSI EA888 vehicles equipped with K04 turbochargers and APR K04 software are experiencing misfires in the upper RPM range. Documented cases primarily exist on newer MK6 GLIs, CCs and Passats with MED 17.5.2 ECUs. However, some customers with nearly identical setups and identical software on these same platforms and others are not experiencing issues.

Diagnosis:

APR’s Engineers have spent countless hours diagnosing vehicles through both hardware and software analysis. Ultimately it was discovered that vehicles experiencing misfires were equipped with weaker exhaust valve springs from the factory. In fact, these weaker springs show roughly 10% less stiffness as shown on a spring dynamometer. These vehicles have identical Engine codes and exhaust valve part numbers as those with the proper valves. Unfortunately VW’s dealership parts system (ETKA) does not indicate a part change. Furthermore, APR has had a test vehicle in house for over a month with this issue. The issue was repeatable by anyone who drove the car. Since changing the springs to the appropriate stiffness the car has not experienced a single misfire on the production V2.0 calibration.

The photo below illustrates known good vs known bad factory valve springs.
http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/valve-springs.jpg
The issue occurs when exhaust backpressure (coupled with the natural forces in a valve train) is high enough to cause the exhaust valves to stay open during the intake stroke. During this time, the intake valves are open and exhaust pressure is flowing back through the intake and into the intake manifold. In doing so, data will show a false rise in boost pressure and a corresponding drop in mass airflow. The car will then cease to accelerate, will eventually blink the Check Engine Light, disable the cylinder and throw the car into limp mode with a fault code for misfires.

In all cases we’ve seen these problems will not exist at stock output levels, or even at Stage 1 or 2 power levels due to lower exhaust backpressure. Furthermore, Stage 3 and 3+ vehicles are not experiencing these issues to date. This may sounds odd but the reason is simple. Stage 3 consists of a significantly larger manifold, turbine wheel, and wastegate therefore reducing the backpressure one would see with a high output K04.

The issues these vehicles have faced are very similar to one existing on some Audi S3 and TTS vehicles in the past. Ultimately it was determined by Audi the valve springs were weak enough to cause issues even on completely stock vehicles, so Audi released a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) advising dealerships how to replace the problematic parts.

Solutions:

The primary solution to this issue is to replace the valve springs with a set of higher rated springs. The problematic vehicle we diagnosed in house received new valve springs and the issue completely disappeared with NO changes to the existing APR K04 MED17.5.2 software.

A secondary workaround to this issue is a software file that reduces engine output in the upper RPM range ultimately reducing back pressure. Peak torque remains consistent between the old and new software so despite having lower output, the vehicle still feels fast. This software can be made available upon request.

Home Diagnosis:

We are not stating that ALL misfires on every K04 car are caused by exhaust valve spring issues. As you all know, there are many possible sources for engine misfire. Some examples include: bad coil packs, fouled spark plugs, faulty fuel delivery systems, etc. This failure mode happens in a specific way that typically involves having misfire that is localized to Cylinder #3 (sometimes Cylinder #2) in the upper RPM band. The car will typically cease to accelerate once the problem is encountered.

Before concluding you may have weak exhaust valve springs, you should have already diagnosed the car through Vag-Com logging, swapping coil packs, swapping spark plugs, and maybe even changing the injector. Instructions for logging a vehicle using Vag-Com can be found here: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

To check what valve springs you have, you can remove the PCV:
http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/pcv.jpg
http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/pcv-off.jpg
http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/pcv-valve-overview.jpg
http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/spring-clors.jpg
Please refer to the image above for known good and bad valve spring color bands.

Thank you for your patience during our diagnosis and Go APR!

-Arin

PaperishPlastic
02-08-2013, 10:10 AM
A supercharged engine is more limited in its tuning possibilities than a turbocharged engine. Swapping out a supercharger is a much bigger deal than a turbocharger. Hence for a given $, you get more bang tuning a 2.0 Turbo than a 3.0 Supercharger.

why would you need to swap out a supercharger? The 3.0T with a tune and pulley is going to be faster than a K04 2.0T. Also swapping out a supercharger is much much easier than swapping out a turbo.

Boom
02-08-2013, 08:47 PM
APR is already in the works for a bigger supercharger for the 3.0T