After Market Timing Chain and Tensioner

[AdiDas]

Hi guys so a couple weeks ago my car broke down and I had it towed to my local dealership. They charged me a s*** ton of money to diagnose the problem and they determined they have to replace the timing chain and tensioner. (I have a 2005.5 3.2 V6 (so no belt))

Now I have a warranty from a third party company that is going to cover the cost of the repair and parts, but they are insisting on buying aftermarket parts for the car and having them installed instead of the OEM. Or they will give me the money for these aftermarket parts and I have to pay the difference in cost if I want OEM parts installed. I have already spent over $1000 just for diagnoses and really dont wanna push it. [=(]
But i was wondering if anyone knows if people even make after market timing chains and tensioners for our cars and if they are reliable. Basically I want to know if i should shell out the extra cash for OEM parts! [confused]

Thanks for any input

[airbornerifleman]

WOW, you paid $1000 for the dealer to tell you that you need Timing Chain and Tensioner? I hope diagnostics cost is covered on you warranty!

If the warranty company wants to use aftermarket parts, have them look into the parts.
I highly doubt there are aftermarket T-chain and tensioner.
IMO, if you paid to warranty your "Audi" then "Audi" parts should be used for warranty repairs. I bet there are stipulations, in the warranty contract, allowing them to use aftermarket parts.

GL and keep us posted.

[fly300kts]

Not sure the parts will be aftermarket but even purchased outside the dealer will be cheaper. But : are you sure the dealer is going to accept to install parts that you will be providing?
Sincerely doubt it

Phil

[fly300kts]

For example, one chain PN is 06D 109 229 B
Dealer price is $159 and you can buy one OEM for $119.25
Not a big saving but little by little, might come up with a pretty good saving

Phil

[AdiDas]

Hey guys thanks for the info and nope the diagnostic costs aren't covered by my warranty so ya im totally Fed on that end. And i couldn't believe it either, but they said they needed to teardown the engine to the point of failure and that would take something like 12 hours of labor, which i find ridiculous... but not sure what else I can do.

but ya I didnt think there was such a thing as aftermarket timing chains and tensioners, but ya the warranty company is looking into it, if they don't find any then they will have to put in OEM.



And I didnt think the dealer would do it either, but the warranty company is dealing directly with the dealership so it really isn't my problem as long as the parts and repair get payed for. I just think its bull I have to pay over $1000 just to get this problem diagnosed [mad]

[mr shickadance]

Hi guys so a couple weeks ago my car broke down and I had it towed to my local dealership. They charged me a s*** ton of money to diagnose the problem and they determined they have to replace the timing chain and tensioner. (I have a 2005.5 3.2 V6 (so no belt))

Now I have a warranty from a third party company that is going to cover the cost of the repair and parts, but they are insisting on buying aftermarket parts for the car and having them installed instead of the OEM. Or they will give me the money for these aftermarket parts and I have to pay the difference in cost if I want OEM parts installed. I have already spent over $1000 just for diagnoses and really dont wanna push it. [=(]
But i was wondering if anyone knows if people even make after market timing chains and tensioners for our cars and if they are reliable. Basically I want to know if i should shell out the extra cash for OEM parts! [confused]

Thanks for any input


TL;DR: buy the OEM


here is my train of thought, from a business perspective, auto manufacturers are always looking for the cheapest most cost-savings options out there. having said that, the OEM timing belt and tensioner is most likely going to be of the highest quality from the OEM manufacturer.

why?

cost savings, if they cheap out on these parts, engines will grenade themselves and even after the warranty, the customer is likely going to phone AOA and complain until AOA shares some of the cost because "NO WAY SHOULD MY CAR EXPLODE AFTER NO REGULAR MAINTENENCE AT 150K MILESS ARGH BLARG FUCK YOU"

so essentially, they are going to make this part, and engineer it such that the failure rate is as low as they can get it, because spending an extra dollar here for materials quality improvement means saving thousands later when the belt goes snappy snappy.


of course this is all speculation, but you gotta figure that there is some logic behind that statement. and for people who are going to comment that "Wouldn't creating a defective timing belt MAKE audi money by having to replace engines?" in the short term, sure, replace an engine, make some profit, but these car manufactures are after the loyalty of a repeat buyer, a quick sale today only to have the customer swear off audi's because "those german buckets cost me thousands to repair i will never buy from them ever again" hurts the company in the long run.

sure, they are not going to make the parts indestructible, but if audi says replace it at 120,000 then i'm willing to bet that majority of the T belts and water pumps can push 150,000 no sweat.

[AdiDas]

TL;DR: buy the OEM


here is my train of thought, from a business perspective, auto manufacturers are always looking for the cheapest most cost-savings options out there. having said that, the OEM timing belt and tensioner is most likely going to be of the highest quality from the OEM manufacturer.

why?

cost savings, if they cheap out on these parts, engines will grenade themselves and even after the warranty, the customer is likely going to phone AOA and complain until AOA shares some of the cost because "NO WAY SHOULD MY CAR EXPLODE AFTER NO REGULAR MAINTENENCE AT 150K MILESS ARGH BLARG FUCK YOU"

so essentially, they are going to make this part, and engineer it such that the failure rate is as low as they can get it, because spending an extra dollar here for materials quality improvement means saving thousands later when the belt goes snappy snappy.


of course this is all speculation, but you gotta figure that there is some logic behind that statement. and for people who are going to comment that "Wouldn't creating a defective timing belt MAKE audi money by having to replace engines?" in the short term, sure, replace an engine, make some profit, but these car manufactures are after the loyalty of a repeat buyer, a quick sale today only to have the customer swear off audi's because "those german buckets cost me thousands to repair i will never buy from them ever again" hurts the company in the long run.

sure, they are not going to make the parts indestructible, but if audi says replace it at 120,000 then i'm willing to bet that majority of the T belts and water pumps can push 150,000 no sweat.

your logic is completely sound and I completely agree.

Ill have to wait and see what the warranty company is willing to pay for the parts and see if its gonna be feasible for me to pay the extra amount since i already have to pay so much for diagnostics.

In all honesty i really don't think there are aftermarket timing chains and tensioners because these parts are so specialized, and like you said they are intended not to fail for a very long time so i don't see why there would be a high demand for these parts and why aftermarket companies would even bother making them.


O had btw haha do you think its worth calling AOA and say "NO WAY SHOULD MY CAR EXPLODE AFTER REGULAR MAINTENENCE AT 68K MILESS ARGH BLARG FUCK YOU" (changed some of the facts in your quote but haha same basic idea) [:p]

[Charles.waite]

The reality of that Shick, is that watper pumps tend to die at 80-90k not the 110 specified by Audi. And the EXACT SAME BELT used in the 1.8t that is specified to be changed at 80k is used in the 2.0t.

Just saying, Audi does make mistakes. The Cam follower is a perfect example of Audi fucking up and now they're eating the costs. They should have done a more expensive, but nearly failure proof cam roller and we wouldn't be having these follower grenading the cam and HPFP issues.

Having said that OEM is great, but often OE parts are equal in quality to OEM. The difference being you can't necessarily know for sure and is the price difference worth the risk? With a Cam chain, I wouldn't scrimp, same with a tensioner. They're too vital. If either one goes, bye bye engine...

[Rodmar]

I'd talk to the dealership and see if you can work out a better price just because they charged you 1000$ doesn't mean you have to pay it and doesn't mean it's not negotiable. Everything's negotiable, especially since in general shops make up their own hours and rate per hour they don't have to follow book hours per say, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to deal with a shop or dealership who hasn't seen them work with someone and actually charge what it takes them in time on r in a blue moon or cut a customer some slack. Just recently I had a shop actually take 5 hours to do something and they only charged me for 3 and a half and I was their the whole time and they worked pretty much that entire time. Not as much overhead as a dealer but believe me they make plenty off the old people who come in for overpriced scheduled maintenances and 100$ oil changes and warranty work that AOA or other warranty companies like yours pay them to do. Maybe mention they'll already making money off me from the warranty work that their getting paid for why not cut you some slack on the 1000$?

Just my .02

Another way to look at it is when you buy a set of tires from a place they usually throw in 80 to 100$ worth of mounting and balancing, and a free sometimes 100$ alignment, why? Because you already spent a good bit with them and they still make out after the sale of tires and the "free"work.
The dealership is already making money off the warranty work and prolly alot of it, and maybe even gain your business later on, so why not cut you some slack on the "alignment" meaning the diagnosis fee.

Maybe shed a few tears and tell them times are tough and you can't just foot 1000$ right now and see if they give you another option? I could see them cutting the bill in half or a few hundred off. They know their called a stealership and they know their prices are usually outrageous and that leaves wiggle room so I'd talk to them before ever paying a dealership 1000$ to diagnosis something and fix nothing

[Charles.waite]

Yea that "diagnosis" fee is bullshit. Honestly I never would have paid that, and would have laughed in their faces, but meh, I'm sure you weren't happy about your situation either at the time, so you just bucked up and paid.

I mean you can get an engine rebuilt for not much more than that. Maybe not a 3.2 but still, that much JUST to determine what happened? I bet it took them an hour or two to get to the timing chains, tops.

[mr shickadance]

The reality of that Shick, is that watper pumps tend to die at 80-90k not the 110 specified by Audi. And the EXACT SAME BELT used in the 1.8t that is specified to be changed at 80k is used in the 2.0t.

Just saying, Audi does make mistakes. The Cam follower is a perfect example of Audi fucking up and now they're eating the costs. They should have done a more expensive, but nearly failure proof cam roller and we wouldn't be having these follower grenading the cam and HPFP issues.

Having said that OEM is great, but often OE parts are equal in quality to OEM. The difference being you can't necessarily know for sure and is the price difference worth the risk? With a Cam chain, I wouldn't scrimp, same with a tensioner. They're too vital. If either one goes, bye bye engine...


do you have numbers to support that claim? i don't have number to support what i said, but i think it's a situation of where you hear a few rogue pumps going at 80-90K versus making it to the 120 maintenence mark and being swapped out.

my assumption, would be that although you may see threads that tell of a timing belt snapping or an incident of a lost motor, it would give the illusion that the part if defective where maybe 5% of pumps go at 80-90k and 94% of engines make it to the point where nothing failed and things were replaced


also, the improved life of the Tbelt from 80-120 would tell me that in b6's they found that too little of engines were having T belt issues, and the materials were stronger than anticipated. if a user can make it to 120K within a problem then they shouldn't have to swap at 80k

telling a customer for a multi thousand dollar repair 30k miles after the warranty runs out is likely going to piss the customer off and push them away from audi, making 120k makes it seem like it might be a routine maintenance item for the standard ape.

agreed, the camfollower is a flawed design, but this was audi's first crack at the FSI motor (and IIRC, the first FSI engine mass produced? if not certainly one of the earliest) and flaws are going to be found. as you have seen, some people have issues with followers, and some are rocking th same follower after over a hundred thousand miles (read chris at 1552) so while testing was certainly done, maybe no enough happened and audi correctly issued a TSB for the cam follower, DV, and the PCV valve.


there has not been a TSB for the timing belt or water pump which tells me that enough of them are running correctly where audi can stand by and let the current failure rate happen.

the 2008's based on a somewhat realistic 20,000 average yearly mileage are approaching the six digit area, while 2005.5-2007 should all but be over that mark, that's an enormous sample size, and trends would become obvious at that point of T belts going early than anticipated.


again, just educated assumptions, and i didn't mean anything negative by "do you have numbers to support it" it was just me being curious

[Rodmar]

I don't think he paid it yet but maybe I missed that so theirs still hope that he can call them out on it and not pay a grand, I mean damn you know what a grand can buy.

[AdiDas]

I'd talk to the dealership and see if you can work out a better price just because they charged you 1000$ doesn't mean you have to pay it and doesn't mean it's not negotiable. Everything's negotiable, especially since in general shops make up their own hours and rate per hour they don't have to follow book hours per say, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to deal with a shop or dealership who hasn't seen them work with someone and actually charge what it takes them in time on r in a blue moon or cut a customer some slack. Just recently I had a shop actually take 5 hours to do something and they only charged me for 3 and a half and I was their the whole time and they worked pretty much that entire time. Not as much overhead as a dealer but believe me they make plenty off the old people who come in for overpriced scheduled maintenances and 100$ oil changes and warranty work that AOA or other warranty companies like yours pay them to do. Maybe mention they'll already making money off me from the warranty work that their getting paid for why not cut you some slack on the 1000$?

Just my .02

Another way to look at it is when you buy a set of tires from a place they usually throw in 80 to 100$ worth of mounting and balancing, and a free sometimes 100$ alignment, why? Because you already spent a good bit with them and they still make out after the sale of tires and the "free"work.
The dealership is already making money off the warranty work and prolly alot of it, and maybe even gain your business later on, so why not cut you some slack on the "alignment" meaning the diagnosis fee.

Maybe shed a few tears and tell them times are tough and you can't just foot 1000$ right now and see if they give you another option? I could see them cutting the bill in half or a few hundred off. They know their called a stealership and they know their prices are usually outrageous and that leaves wiggle room so I'd talk to them before ever paying a dealership 1000$ to diagnosis something and fix nothing




Yea that "diagnosis" fee is bullshit. Honestly I never would have paid that, and would have laughed in their faces, but meh, I'm sure you weren't happy about your situation either at the time, so you just bucked up and paid.

I mean you can get an engine rebuilt for not much more than that. Maybe not a 3.2 but still, that much JUST to determine what happened? I bet it took them an hour or two to get to the timing chains, tops.

Ya its really messed up. Well I haven't paid yet... my car actually broke down right before I was leaving the country for a couple weeks so I sent the car to the dealership adn will pick it up and pay once I get back to the states and they have fixed it up. I really want to know why they are charging me so much just to find out whats wrong with the car. I think I may have to argue with them when I get there and see if they can cut me a break, or at the least stop completely ripping me off

Thanks for the input really appreciate it


and ya I really hope they cut me some slack Ive been talking to the same lady at the dealership for the past 3 weeks about my car so hopefully when I get back I can convince them to lower the fees a bit or something along those lines.

[Rodmar]

Look up threads or info on how long it usually takes people or even shops with less expertise and brig that info to them and that 1000$ to tell me something I sorta knew without popping the hood was wrong is just rediculous and that you aren't paying that

[mr shickadance]

if they won't budge after going in and calmly talking to the service people, just give AOA a quick phone call.

a shop is required (at least in CT) to post a standard diagnostic fee clearly visible in the customer's view which states that to perform a diagnostic on the car it should cost XXX (example, audi danbury's is $250.00) once the dealership breaks the $250 mark in labor, they are required to phone you, and have you agree to pay the additional amount.

they should have explained the above to you, and if they didn't, I would give AoA a nice phone call (you get farther when you are calm and reasonable) explaining that you expected to pay the diagnostic fee, but the bill turned out to be more, and you were not notified, had you known it would have been XXXX$ you would have brought the car back and sought a different mechanic.

they will most likely work out some sort of deal with you over the amount, but i would expect to pay the standard diagnostic fee of XXX but not to the total bill

[AdiDas]

Look up threads or info on how long it usually takes people or even shops with less expertise and brig that info to them and that 1000$ to tell me something I sorta knew without popping the hood was wrong is just rediculous and that you aren't paying that

Thanks for the advice

I looked into timing chains and stuff but couldn't really find how much time it takes to open up the part (I cant imagine itll take 12 hours, the amount of time the dealer quoted)) I found a really good page: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/414598-B6-B7-S4-Timing-Chain-FAQ-Information-Discussion-Thread

But doesn't reflect the information I wanted and dont know how much of it applies to my case

[Rodmar]

Exactly ^^^ exactly what I was thinking on another note, their fee shoulda been stated before and should have contacted you before moving to blow up to 1000$ that's alot of damn cash. The only reason I didn't mention it and thought they might not have was because you left the country and couldn't reach you but they still should have held off until aquireing the authorization to do things that would have added up to so much

[AdiDas]

if they won't budge after going in and calmly talking to the service people, just give AOA a quick phone call.

a shop is required (at least in CT) to post a standard diagnostic fee clearly visible in the customer's view which states that to perform a diagnostic on the car it should cost XXX (example, audi danbury's is $250.00) once the dealership breaks the $250 mark in labor, they are required to phone you, and have you agree to pay the additional amount.

they should have explained the above to you, and if they didn't, I would give AoA a nice phone call (you get farther when you are calm and reasonable) explaining that you expected to pay the diagnostic fee, but the bill turned out to be more, and you were not notified, had you known it would have been XXXX$ you would have brought the car back and sought a different mechanic.

they will most likely work out some sort of deal with you over the amount, but i would expect to pay the standard diagnostic fee of XXX but not to the total bill

Thanks for the info

The dealer didn't mention any standard diagnostic fee, but they did call me to ask me to authorize the tear down, which I agreed to since I really don't no what else I could have asked, since they insisted they needed to do the tear down to determine the failure. But Ya when i go into pick p the car and pay Ill definitely bring up something along the lines of what you said and see what they can do

[Rodmar]

Do what shim said and call AOA you'll end up paying no where near 1000$ hopefully

[AdiDas]

Do what shim said and call AOA you'll end up paying no where near 1000$ hopefully

I did just that

I just got off the phone with AOA and told them the situation the lady said she will do some more research into the situation and contact my dealership to determine exactly why the diagnoses alone is costing my $1350 and get back to me later this week.

So hopefully this helps reduce the ridiculous cost!!!

Thanks again guys for the advice

[Rodmar]

Sao so now it's 1350 even omg wtf I wanna cry for ya it shouldn't cost 1350 they didn't even fix anything for that 1350 I mean come on you shoulda just bought a new engine while you were at t and had it put in I mean wtf

[Rodmar]

Their trig to gouge you for that and you better not let them if the total doesn't come down to 500$ or less tell them your not paying. Their gonna get mad money from you and mad money from the warranty company that just doesn't make sense

[AdiDas]

Sao so now it's 1350 even omg wtf I wanna cry for ya it shouldn't cost 1350 they didn't even fix anything for that 1350 I mean come on you shoulda just bought a new engine while you were at t and had it put in I mean wtf

ya its $150 to read the CEL, $700 for the first tear down then another $500 cuz they had to do more of a tear down to determine the failed part...

Ive been so stressed haha thats exactly what i thought they havent fixed shit and they are charging so much! Can't imagine how Fed id be if my warranty didn't cover the part and I had to pay for fixing it too

Im seriously hoping that AOA helps figure things out and lowers the cost. I havent brought up my concerns with the dealership yet, but am going to wait till AOA gets back to me adn I get back to Pittsburgh

[Rodmar]

I'd call AOA daily and keep on them honestly to figure out the plan of attack. They might waive all but the diagnosis fee since the dealership might have some goodwill to throw around since its a new year but that's me being extremely optimistic. I dobht they will lol would just be nice on your end. Talk to AOA every day for a few minutes to keep on them.

[AdiDas]

I'd call AOA daily and keep on them honestly to figure out the plan of attack. They might waive all but the diagnosis fee since the dealership might have some goodwill to throw around since its a new year but that's me being extremely optimistic. I dobht they will lol would just be nice on your end. Talk to AOA every day for a few minutes to keep on them.

Thanks Will do

Ill call them again tomorrow and check up on the status. Man I hope your right haha Itd be a belated Christmas Miracle!!!!

Also do you think I should talk to the dealership over the phone about the situation too or should I just wait till AOA figures something out and wait till my warranty gets the parts and the repairs approved and taken care of. And till I get back to pitt and can talk to them in person

[mr shickadance]

i would call later in the week, being pesky and annoying will get you the run around, she said she will get back to you later in the week, wait until thursday afternoon and phone in

[Rodmar]

I'd wait till AOA does their thing and then go to the dealership when you get home and talk in person I feel like people think they can F you over, over the phone but in person it's completely different and Brian your phone and keep it on in your pocket so you can record the conversation incase they're rude or offer something then try and go back on it lol

[AdiDas]

haha thanks a lot guys

your advice has been super helpful, i would never have thought of calling AOA

and I'll definitely do that Rodmar

and Ya Shickadance I can see how tht might piss them off. Ill wait till thursday like she said and if nothing comes of it by then Ill be a bit more annoying and call them more often.

[Rodmar]

Pesky and annoying only matters when your dealing with a place who deals with a few people not a huge corporation who throws you to the side for a few days. That's what she's their for, essentially. But depending on her attitude and personality it could be annoying for her. I'd still call every day.
I remember I was having some jewelry appraised alittle bit ago and I thought it would be annoying of me to call them and find out if it was done a couple days before they said it would be. Turns out it wouldn't be done till the day it was suppose to be, but magically an hour later they called me and told me its done. They were extremely busy due to the holidays ya but because I called them and got over te barrier of givin a damn about someone I'm paying to do a job I got it quicker then I would have and reminded them about it.

Just my .02 and an example and I wasn't stressed out like the op is obviously, so that could be even more concern to keep in touch with whoever you spoke to op

[AdiDas]

Pesky and annoying only matters when your dealing with a place who deals with a few people not a huge corporation who throws you to the side for a few days. That's what she's their for, essentially. But depending on her attitude and personality it could be annoying for her. I'd still call every day.
I remember I was having some jewelry appraised alittle bit ago and I thought it would be annoying of me to call them and find out if it was done a couple days before they said it would be. Turns out it wouldn't be done till the day it was suppose to be, but magically an hour later they called me and told me its done. They were extremely busy due to the holidays ya but because I called them and got over te barrier of givin a damn about someone I'm paying to do a job I got it quicker then I would have and reminded them about it.

Just my .02 and an example and I wasn't stressed out like the op is obviously, so that could be even more concern to keep in touch with whoever you spoke to op

thanks ill give that some consideration


and just an update the dealership gave me a call regarding the repairs. So, my warranty (CARS Protection Plus) has authorized the repair and the parts are gonna cost a total of $1510!!! so I am assuming the entire timing chain system or whatever got totally Fed. And they authorized labor charges for $75 an hour which leaves me to pay the extra $20 the dealership charges (since the dealership charge $95 an hour) soo I guess Ill have to pay even more then the $1350! But hopefully AOA gets the diagnosis charges down at least a few hundred dollars. Ideally I wanna pay under a grand. But that might be just wishful thinking

[Rodmar]

I wish you were their in person sometimes these guys are willin to work on rate with you even if you got them to do 85$ an hour you'd only have to spend 10$ an hour so if it takes them 12 + hours your only out 120 + instead of 240+ lol which number sounds better to you? Sure it might only be 100$ + more but that's just another 100$ on top of that already huge sum of 1350 before tax haha

I just feel like your getting screwed over and imagine what it could buy for that beutiful sounding 3.2 V6 haha and feel like at 68k miles that's a rediculous amount to already be spending on maintenance, especially if you maintained it like you say you did

[AdiDas]

I wish you were their in person sometimes these guys are willin to work on rate with you even if you got them to do 85$ an hour you'd only have to spend 10$ an hour so if it takes them 12 + hours your only out 120 + instead of 240+ lol which number sounds better to you? Sure it might only be 100$ + more but that's just another 100$ on top of that already huge sum of 1350 before tax haha

I just feel like your getting screwed over and imagine what it could buy for that beutiful sounding 3.2 V6 haha and feel like at 68k miles that's a rediculous amount to already be spending on maintenance, especially if you maintained it like you say you did


Thanks for the support man haha making me feel better that maybe I am getting screwed and Audi's arent really this fucking impossible to afford!!
Ya I agree I wish i was there in person too it would make negotiating so much easier. I might ask them to do something when they call me back about the adjusted labor cost. Dont know if I should try negotiating now over the phone or authorize the repairs and everything and then when i get ot pittsbrugh try and negotiate with them in person when i go to pick up the car adn pay for everything


And i know i could get so many awesome things ive been holding off for her!

[Rodmar]

Maybe shik will chime in on that lol I'm the type to feel like I'm always getting screwed over so I get in people's faces and it's hard for me to ever stay calm in these type of situations.

And no these cars aren't impossible to afford I think the most expensive thing maintenance wise I had done to the car in over 2 years of ownership was brake pads and lets get real, at some point you have to change those out anyway on any car haha. I know different engine but we both have our problems when it comes to internals and I guess some people like me just get lucky and some have timing chains snap on them at 68k haha sorry it had to happen to ya cause recaros would go nice with that v6 haha

[AdiDas]

Maybe shik will chime in on that lol I'm the type to feel like I'm always getting screwed over so I get in people's faces and it's hard for me to ever stay calm in these type of situations.

And no these cars aren't impossible to afford I think the most expensive thing maintenance wise I had done to the car in over 2 years of ownership was brake pads and lets get real, at some point you have to change those out anyway on any car haha. I know different engine but we both have our problems when it comes to internals and I guess some people like me just get lucky and some have timing chains snap on them at 68k haha sorry it had to happen to ya cause recaros would go nice with that v6 haha

Ya i Feel you I can get frustrated when i think people are screwing me over pretty easily too
hopefully after this things wont get too screwed up with the car

Im just glad I got a warranty otherwise Id have to pay for repair too and that sounds like itll be really expensive

Now the hope is that the car get fixed soon and AOA and the dealership can work things out and in the end i have to pay under a grand so that at least this ridiculously stressful situation at least pays off a little

[Rodmar]

If they work out and your under a grand for a engine with new components then your good to go and you can hopefully feel better about the car for a few years.

[themadscientist]

That diagnostic is absurd. Typical for a dealer, but absurd. I've torn down the 3.2 and those chains and tensioners are not that hard to get at. The noise is usually very pronounced since the thin metal timing cover is like a drum. You can even hear it over all the FSI noises with a stethescope.

[themadscientist]

if they won't budge after going in and calmly talking to the service people, just give AOA a quick phone call.

a shop is required (at least in CT) to post a standard diagnostic fee clearly visible in the customer's view which states that to perform a diagnostic on the car it should cost XXX (example, audi danbury's is $250.00) once the dealership breaks the $250 mark in labor, they are required to phone you, and have you agree to pay the additional amount.

they should have explained the above to you, and if they didn't, I would give AoA a nice phone call (you get farther when you are calm and reasonable) explaining that you expected to pay the diagnostic fee, but the bill turned out to be more, and you were not notified, had you known it would have been XXXX$ you would have brought the car back and sought a different mechanic.

they will most likely work out some sort of deal with you over the amount, but i would expect to pay the standard diagnostic fee of XXX but not to the total bill

This, also. Most states have a "shop bill of rights" for the customers. No one ever seems to know about it.

[AdiDas]

That diagnostic is absurd. Typical for a dealer, but absurd. I've torn down the 3.2 and those chains and tensioners are not that hard to get at. The noise is usually very pronounced since the thin metal timing cover is like a drum. You can even hear it over all the FSI noises with a stethescope.

By any chance do you have a rough estimate of how long you think it should take to get to the part (Just so i can get something to go on when I ask the dealer why they charged me for 12 hours of labor just to diagnose the problem)

Thanks a lot

[mr shickadance]

can;t say i have ever dealt with AoA, i have gotten my vw touareg lemoned within a month, which involved calls to VWoA and i came out successful, i know in touareg situations I was not the 'typical' result, and one guy got hosed for over 5 months when he was expriencing worse problems than i did.

I will say this, if the lady gave you a call back number, and her name, then i would give her the benefit of the doubt of a couple days if she does not follow through, then you can get on her ass, but automatically assuming a lady is shit at her job is only going to make that person want to help you less.

also, calls are directed regionally, so if you called AoA the chance of you getting that exact person is quite likely.

[AdiDas]

can;t say i have ever dealt with AoA, i have gotten my vw touareg lemoned within a month, which involved calls to VWoA and i came out successful, i know in touareg situations I was not the 'typical' result, and one guy got hosed for over 5 months when he was expriencing worse problems than i did.

I will say this, if the lady gave you a call back number, and her name, then i would give her the benefit of the doubt of a couple days if she does not follow through, then you can get on her ass, but automatically assuming a lady is shit at her job is only going to make that person want to help you less.

also, calls are directed regionally, so if you called AoA the chance of you getting that exact person is quite likely.

Alright thanks Shick
She unfortunately didn't give me a name or call back number. She just took my information and told me she would get back to me. In hindsight I should have probably asked for that info, but ya ill give it till thursday and call back hopefully they can pull up my complaint through my VIN

[Rodmar]

Alright thanks Shick
She unfortunately didn't give me a name or call back number. She just took my information and told me she would get back to me.
Lol

[AdiDas]

[QUOTE=AdiDas;8328214
She unfortunately didn't give me a name or call back number. She just took my information and told me she would get back to me. [/QUOTE]

haha i'd be lying if said i never heard that from a chick before [:p]

[themadscientist]

By any chance do you have a rough estimate of how long you think it should take to get to the part (Just so i can get something to go on when I ask the dealer why they charged me for 12 hours of labor just to diagnose the problem)

Thanks a lot

Did they specify which tensioner was the problem?

[AdiDas]

Did they specify which tensioner was the problem?

No not really but they just told me that all the parts that need to be replaced are gonna be about $1800 worth. I'm assuming that's the whole timing chain setup

And even though I'm sure it'll take a lot of time to replace the parts I wouldn't think it would take 12 hours of labor charge to just diagnose it

Thanks for your input

[themadscientist]

No not really but they just told me that all the parts that need to be replaced are gonna be about $1800 worth. I'm assuming that's the whole timing chain setup

And even though I'm sure it'll take a lot of time to replace the parts I wouldn't think it would take 12 hours of labor charge to just diagnose it

Thanks for your input

The rear of the 3.2 is a very busy place. Some of the tensioners can only be accessed with the engine or transmission removed... and that is the big question. If they had to pull the engine or trans, then that could very well justify the labor cost on the diagnostic. Regardless, they should have asked for your permission before getting in that deep. If they didn't, then you're getting fucked. Period.

[themadscientist]

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af190/bkutlesa/32chaindrive_zps4d47746a.png

Like I said, busy place. Elsa does say the gearbox should be removed for access to the lower timing cover.

[AdiDas]

The rear of the 3.2 is a very busy place. Some of the tensioners can only be accessed with the engine or transmission removed... and that is the big question. If they had to pull the engine or trans, then that could very well justify the labor cost on the diagnostic. Regardless, they should have asked for your permission before getting in that deep. If they didn't, then you're getting fucked. Period.

Alright thanks for the info

They did mention something about having to "open up" the transmission. So maybe they did need 12 hours just for the diagnosis....

hopefully I can get the cost reduced somewhat regardless

[B72011]

Id negotiate the diagnostic fee lower pay the dealer, then take it to an indy shop that agrees to do the job for 75 a hr.

[themadscientist]

Alright thanks for the info

They did mention something about having to "open up" the transmission. So maybe they did need 12 hours just for the diagnosis....

hopefully I can get the cost reduced somewhat regardless

Ahhh... Yep, they pulled the trans. Nontheless, they should have asked you first. If a customer dropped their car with me for a noise concern, and I took it upon myself to tear it all apart and then said, "Ok, you owe me $1200 in diagnostics" then I would fully deserve to get my teeth kicked in.

Don't let big business push you around.

[AdiDas]

Id negotiate the diagnostic fee lower pay the dealer, then take it to an indy shop that agrees to do the job for 75 a hr.

Unfortunately if I do that then my warranty won't pay for the repairs and I'm sure if I talk to the dealership they maybe be willing to reduce the costs

Also I highly doubt a local mechanic will have the expertise to replace such a complicated part on the 3.2. Also it's worth an extra couple hundred to get it done by the dealership

[AdiDas]

Ahhh... Yep, they pulled the trans. Nontheless, they should have asked you first. If a customer dropped their car with me for a noise concern, and I took it upon myself to tear it all apart and then said, "Ok, you owe me $1200 in diagnostics" then I would fully deserve to get my teeth kicked in.

Don't let big business push you around.

Haha ya it's rough

Ill try and get at least some of the cost down and see if I can negotiate with them. Also I hope AOA can at least help a bit

[airbornerifleman]

Also I highly doubt a local mechanic will have the expertise to replace such a complicated part on the 3.2. Also it's worth an extra couple hundred to get it done by the dealership

NOT true at all. Just cuz its a dealership, doesn't mean shit. At any given time there are not more that 2 actual "audi licensed" mechanics working in the shop, the rest are apprentices or tire busters. There are lots of indy shops that are just as knowledgeable as the dealer if not more. Plus, there are indy shop owners/techs that were former dealership employees.


Just a few months ago we had a member’s car catch on fire because someone at the “dealership” left a rag in his engine bay. If they can make a small mistake like that, jus imagine what they can fuck up on after doing “12 hours” of work.

[AdiDas]

NOT true at all. Just cuz its a dealership, doesn't mean shit. At any given time there are not more that 2 actual "audi licensed" mechanics working in the shop, the rest are apprentices or tire busters. There are lots of indy shops that are just as knowledgeable as the dealer if not more. Plus, there are indy shop owners/techs that were former dealership employees.


Just a few months ago we had a member’s car catch on fire because someone at the “dealership” left a rag in his engine bay. If they can make a small mistake like that, jus imagine what they can fuck up on after doing “12 hours” of work.


point taken haha

hopefully that doesnt happen with my car!!

But i still cant take my other car to a different location because my warranty dictates that I have to use teh same place that diagnosed the problem to repair the parts

[FulhamFTW]

I came across this thread randomly, and I have to say, I would be furious if I were you. If they had to tear down the motor to diagnosis the problem, then that means they would have had to tear it down to fix the problem as well. If they are the ones that are doing the repair, then there would only be one tear down/engine removal. Half of the labor to fix the problem is already been done with the diagnosis, so there should be no diagnosis fee. For example, I once had issue with my old B6 1.8t. After the shop dug into the motor and found the problem to be a sezied water pump, they gave me a total to fix the problem. If I went ahead and gave them the ok to fix it(which I did), then there would be no diagnosis fee, because they had already done half of the repair by taking the old pump out to diagnose the problem. The other half of the repair was putting the new one in and reinstalling everything. So they just charged me the standard water pump/timing belt replacement fee as though there was no diagnosis and they already knew what the issue was to begin with. Sounds like your dealer is shady as shit and trying to double dip. And BTW, I only skimmed this thread, so if all of this was already mentioned, then ignore my rant.

[Rodmar]

exactly the car's already half way done for the job, thier trying to charge you twice per say, especially since warranty is paying for most, so they assume you know no better.

[AdiDas]

couldn't agree with you guys more

Hope only that the dealership sees it the same way!!

I find out when I get back on monday

Ill keep this thread updated with what happens

Really hope dealerships stop trying to screw every consumer... Wishful thinking

[AdiDas]

Hey guys sorry I have another issue arising with the dealership that I wanted some input on

the warranty company I use determines the labor charge they cover based on Mitchel's On Demand. They have determined that the repair will take 16.6 hours, hour my dealership is going to charge for 24 hours so I have to cover the extra cost.

My concern is that shouldn't the dealership abide by the accepted time for repair not their own arbitrary system. By their timings It would cost me an extra $700 for the repair and this is on top of the $1350 they are already charging me for diagnoses, an extra $20 on each hour of labor for repairs!

its getting to be ridiculous by how much they are screwing me over

[Charles.waite]

Honestly, the warranty company should abide by how much the dealer is stating the repair will take. The dealer doesn't make up those times out of thin air, they're book times based on VAG standard repair procedure times. the Warranty company shouldn't be shortchanging you like that because you have the "audacity" to take your car to the dealer. I would fight with the warranty company, not the dealer...

The dealer is charging you their basic shop rate. Yes its high, but its a dealer, they always are higher than an idie shop. They were wrong to charge you so much for diagnostics, but to be honest the cost would have been partly there to tear the engine down to replace the parts anyway. They needed to determine other parts of the engine weren't harmed with the cam chain failing. (3.2 heads are not cheap).

It sounds to me like the Warranty company is cheaping out and trying to get you to foot the bill. You need to work this out with them. read the contract you signed. Read the fine print. If they only authorise up to a maximum amount per hour for shop labor then you're hosed on that end. But shorting the shop time for a repair is pretty lame and you need to push back on that. If the dealer says it should take XX amount of time, they should foot the bill for XX amount of time, not XX-8hrs.

[mr shickadance]

Hey guys sorry I have another issue arising with the dealership that I wanted some input on

the warranty company I use determines the labor charge they cover based on Mitchel's On Demand. They have determined that the repair will take 16.6 hours, hour my dealership is going to charge for 24 hours so I have to cover the extra cost.

My concern is that shouldn't the dealership abide by the accepted time for repair not their own arbitrary system. By their timings It would cost me an extra $700 for the repair and this is on top of the $1350 they are already charging me for diagnoses, an extra $20 on each hour of labor for repairs!

its getting to be ridiculous by how much they are screwing me over



yes and no,

audi techs follow strict rules, think of your timing belt as a desk you just bought from IKEA, and the instructions are all there, Audi has released a step by step how to 'fix your shit' and along side of it, a standard amount of labor hours that they set, and that will be current among all audi dealerships in the US.

so if the audi book says 24, they are going to charge you 24 hours.


your warranty on the other hand, is an agreement, and the mitchel's on demand is a term that you agreed upon. (you will quickly learn those extra warranties are a waste of money) so they are right to only pay 16 hours if thats what they are agreed to in your warranty agreement (sucks i know)


here is your bargaining chip:

audi dealership already took apart your engine to a tune of about 10 hours right? so explain to them that this job should be reduced from 24 to 14 hours as 10 hours were already performed in the tear down of the engine. so maybe your warranty can cover that much. plus you are complaining to AoA in hopes they will help out for the diagnostic fee, so maybe this won't be so bad.



lesson:

after,market warranties are largely useless, if something sounds too good to be true, it is, a warranty is designed like a casino, in the long run, they are going to make profit off you.

[Charles.waite]

^^ Good point, schick. The teardown is probably 1/2 the repair time, and its already done and been billed to you. The 12 hours of labor you paid for should be deducted from the total.

Also, yes, aftermarket warranties are largely useless...

[AdiDas]

yes and no,

audi techs follow strict rules, think of your timing belt as a desk you just bought from IKEA, and the instructions are all there, Audi has released a step by step how to 'fix your shit' and along side of it, a standard amount of labor hours that they set, and that will be current among all audi dealerships in the US.

so if the audi book says 24, they are going to charge you 24 hours.


your warranty on the other hand, is an agreement, and the mitchel's on demand is a term that you agreed upon. (you will quickly learn those extra warranties are a waste of money) so they are right to only pay 16 hours if thats what they are agreed to in your warranty agreement (sucks i know)


here is your bargaining chip:

audi dealership already took apart your engine to a tune of about 10 hours right? so explain to them that this job should be reduced from 24 to 14 hours as 10 hours were already performed in the tear down of the engine. so maybe your warranty can cover that much. plus you are complaining to AoA in hopes they will help out for the diagnostic fee, so maybe this won't be so bad.



lesson:

after,market warranties are largely useless, if something sounds too good to be true, it is, a warranty is designed like a casino, in the long run, they are going to make profit off you.


I agree with all that but at least the warranty is covering for the $1800 for the parts and the 16.6 hours of labor so that basically covers more than the price of what i payed for the warranty so maybe it didn't all go to waste :S


And ya I think ill give them a call and make that argument and ask them to completely get rid of those charges and everything so I just have to end up paying for the inital diagnoses cost leaving me with a bil of $1350

or is tht still too much in everyones opinion?

[AdiDas]

Hey guys

so i thought I would update the thread just incase others had similar problems with dealerships

but i got a call back from AOA and they said the diagnostic fees that the dealership wants to charge for will just be factored into the total labor charge for the repair. This is basically what FulhamFTW mentioned above. So from what I understood in what AOA is saying is that the 12 labor charge for diagnostics will just be included in the 24 hours they are charging me for labor for the repair. This makes a lot more sense to me than having to pay the diagnosis charge separately over the cost of repairs

Anyway this is just AOA is telling me so I will have to wait and see what the dealership is actually going to charge me when i get back to the states and pick up my car

I'll update this thread once that happens

and thanks again everyone for your input, it was very helpful and reassuring!

[Rodmar]

so how much is actually coming out of your damn pocket and did you call the dealership and tell them the 24 hour quote is way to high of a time to take to do it.

[AdiDas]

so how much is actually coming out of your damn pocket and did you call the dealership and tell them the 24 hour quote is way to high of a time to take to do it.

Hey rodmar s I am actually not sure what the cost is going to be yet I wanna go to the dealership in person and sort it out then. When I spoke to the dealership they didn't quote me the 24 hours the warranty company is the one who told me the dealership quoted 24 hours of labor. My understanding is that the dealership is going to factor the 12 hours of diagnosis labour into their total 24 hour quote for the repair. If this is true than what I have to pay will be just slightly over $1100 plus tax. THis will cover the labour costs not supported by my warranty.

This is the understanding that I have after speaking with AOA, but I can't be sure till I talk to the dealership.

[Rodmar]

well I think 16 hours is more then fair, meaning you pay 4 hours total max, comes out to 360$ plus tax, plus the 20$ per hour that the warranty won't cover which is 320$ plus tax so 680$ plus tax is around 720 to 740 depending on the tax rate in your area, and to me that's still a shitload of money when you have a damn warranty that's covering most of it.

[AdiDas]

well I think 16 hours is more then fair, meaning you pay 4 hours total max, comes out to 360$ plus tax, plus the 20$ per hour that the warranty won't cover which is 320$ plus tax so 680$ plus tax is around 720 to 740 depending on the tax rate in your area, and to me that's still a shitload of money when you have a damn warranty that's covering most of it.

haha Ya thats the same basic figure I got warranty covers 16.6 hours and the dealership is charging for 24 so i pay $95 for the extra 7.4 hours and $20 extra for the 16.6 hours like you said. But also the cost of reading the CEL which is $100 so leaves me with a bill of about $1100

but again this is all conjecture. When i get back I think i will see what the dealership wants to charge me adn maybe Ill ask them to reduce the hourly rate for labor a bit...

again im still not even sure if they are including all 12 hours of diagnosis in the total labor charge for the repair so I honestly have no idea what they are going to charge and how I am goign to have to negotiate with them :S

[airbornerifleman]

well I think 16 hours is more then fair, meaning you pay 4 hours total max, comes out to 360$ plus tax, plus the 20$ per hour that the warranty won't cover which is 320$ plus tax so 680$ plus tax is around 720 to 740 depending on the tax rate in your area, and to me that's still a shitload of money when you have a damn warranty that's covering most of it.

Its still better than paying everything out of pocket, granted the warranty didn't cost an arm and a leg.

[Rodmar]

tell ya youll slip em each 50$ a pop to bring the bill down down to 16.6 hours then like warranty will pay for and take it down to 75$ per hour per labor, remind them thanks to you, you guys got lots of business and cash out of this deal already, and you know it won't take them 24 hours total and sure as hell didnt take 12 hours to diagnos the problem. If they do all that hell give them a bill each and thats all your out lol.

[AdiDas]

Its still better than paying everything out of pocket, granted the warranty didn't cost an arm and a leg.

haha true and n not too bad considering how much they are footing the bill for this one

But still rough that its only been 3 months since I bought the car and im already getting screwed

[AdiDas]

tell ya youll slip em each 50$ a pop to bring the bill down down to 16.6 hours then like warranty will pay for and take it down to 75$ per hour per labor, remind them thanks to you, you guys got lots of business and cash out of this deal already, and you know it won't take them 24 hours total and sure as hell didnt take 12 hours to diagnos the problem. If they do all that hell give them a bill each and thats all your out lol.

hahah i dont know how well that would work

and dont think i have the balls to slip them bills :P

but that would be dope if i could

[Charles.waite]

And then insurance fraud happened.

Fine line there...

[AdiDas]

And then insurance fraud happened.

Fine line there...
haha i don't think this would be considered insurance fraud :P

[AdiDas]

Hey guys

So I finally got my car back from the shop!!! its great to have her with me again!!!

so to keep you guys updated what the dealership did was include some of the diagnostic charges into the total labor time rather than charging me separately. So what this meant for me is that my warranty covered more of the charge then they lead me to believe. However I still had to pay about 600 dollars in diagnostics and another $600 so I ended up paying $1200 for the repairs and my CARS PLus warranty covered about $2600

even though these charges are pretty high since my warranty covered a lot of it, but seems a bit more especially since they had to do a major repair (Replace the entire timing chain and tensioner system and new gasket cover).

Let me know what you guys think

and thanks again everyone for all the input and helping me out.