Mid-range "launch".... how to properly downshift??

[drew4392]

I've only driven manuals, so coming to a DSG is a bit of a change. I'm learning how to drive it more and more efficiently, but curious to hear your thoughts on how to properly launch on a 60-1xx run.

For example... if I was at that airstrip event (private event where most of the races were 40/50/60-1xx) and needed to launch at the sound of a honk (think that's how they signal)... what is the best way to downshift?

Do you stay in gear and hum at uncomfortably high rpms?

Do you stay in 1 or 2 gears higher then hit the paddle or shifter on the 2nd honk (if you're launching on 3rd honk)?


Had a practice run today... on a private road of course... and I was sitting in 6th at 60mph. On the opposing car's 3rd honk, I tried to quickly bang 2 downshifts to 4th, but the tranny wasn't reacting quickly enough and it turned into a bit of a mess. RPMs jumped... smashing gas... ran out of steam as soon as downshift occurred...etc.


thanks!

[MrFunk]

Only driven MT vehicles..? you should be giving the DSG guys lessons - [;)]

Why would you be in 6th gear and try and upshift 2-3 gears in a split second if you were going to "launch". Would you do that in a manual?
Have it in the gear that puts you in the RPM sweetspot for that given speed - spooled and ready to hit it...

We should start a sticky called Driving 101 in this forum!

[Deckdout2]

Hmmmm, Throttle Blip would have helped you here right before the launch, plus sounds like you experienced the lag I was talking about in my other thread when using the paddles or shifter to try and downshift. All you needed was one solid throttle blip and go back in the throttle again to pull away.......but what do I know.

[richib86]

but what do I know.
a whole lot of nothing

[Deckdout2]

a whole lot of nothing

I can still shift faster than you. [drive]

[richib86]

shift off in 20 minutes... see u there bring your DSG skirt with you [:p]
I can still shift faster than you. [drive]

[thedollardoctor]

Only driven MT vehicles..? you should be giving the DSG guys lessons - [;)]

Why would you be in 6th gear and try and upshift 2-3 gears in a split second if you were going to "launch". Would you do that in a manual?
Have it in the gear that puts you in the RPM sweetspot for that given speed - spooled and ready to hit it...

We should start a sticky called Driving 101 in this forum!

+1, the car is fine to be "held" at a higher RPM, and there is NO WAY to launch faster in a manual OR DSG than to already have the car sitting in the RPM sweet spot then mash the gas! And the good news is that since you own a DSG, your up shift is going to be faster than any manual drivers will be

[drew4392]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try this again.

[CJ_S4]

I've only driven manuals, so coming to a DSG is a bit of a change. I'm learning how to drive it more and more efficiently, but curious to hear your thoughts on how to properly launch on a 60-1xx run.

For example... if I was at that airstrip event (private event where most of the races were 40/50/60-1xx) and needed to launch at the sound of a honk (think that's how they signal)... what is the best way to downshift?

Do you stay in gear and hum at uncomfortably high rpms?

Do you stay in 1 or 2 gears higher then hit the paddle or shifter on the 2nd honk (if you're launching on 3rd honk)?


Had a practice run today... on a private road of course... and I was sitting in 6th at 60mph. On the opposing car's 3rd honk, I tried to quickly bang 2 downshifts to 4th, but the tranny wasn't reacting quickly enough and it turned into a bit of a mess. RPMs jumped... smashing gas... ran out of steam as soon as downshift occurred...etc.


thanks!I would think the ideal moving launch would occur right around the torque peak of the engine (4000-5000 rpm). Try downshifting to whatever gear puts you around 4000-4500 rpm at your starting speed. For 60 mph maybe 3rd would be suitable? Then be ready to upshift very quickly. Just a thought...

[Toecutter]

+1 on shifting to the sweet spot before the honk. If you have to downshift from 6th at the honk then you're late to the party.

[skeelo]

And the good news is that since you own a DSG, your up shift is going to be faster than any manual drivers will be

And you don't even need to upshift... DSG will do it for you once it hits redline. It's literally Point and shoot!

[thedollardoctor]

And you don't even need to upshift... DSG will do it for you once it hits redline. It's literally Point and shoot!

Actually, if you're "lucky" like me and own a 13' S4, it will even shift for you BEFORE redline! Ugh :-/

[skeelo]

Actually, if you're "lucky" like me and own a 13' S4, it will even shift for you BEFORE redline! Ugh :-/

That's why 6MT of GTFO [:)]

[thedollardoctor]

That's why 6MT of GTFO [:)]

Lol! Good for you :)

[skiracerblah]

turbo charged guys rides on the brakes at XXXX RPM just to get the turbo spinning and build up boost. Not sure if doing the same in a supercharged car would be any benefit.

[craneman]

Nope ^

[zcd2.7t]

Actually, if you're "lucky" like me and own a 13' S4, it will even shift for you BEFORE redline! Ugh :-/

Question: What makes you think that it would be "better" in some way if the car ran all the way out to redline before shifting? The power peak is well below redline, and it shifts there, because there's no time/speed/power to be gained by delaying the upshift...

Also, FWIW, it's not just '13s that do this - pretty much ALL DSG B8 S4s do this, regardless of year.

[Toecutter]

Question: What makes you think that it would be "better" in some way if the car ran all the way out to redline before shifting? The power peak is well below redline, and it shifts there, because there's no time/speed/power to be gained by delaying the upshift...

Also, FWIW, it's not just '13s that do this - pretty much ALL DSG B8 S4s do this, regardless of year.

The DSG shifts at the "sweet spot" of the powerband?

[thedollardoctor]

Question: What makes you think that it would be "better" in some way if the car ran all the way out to redline before shifting? The power peak is well below redline, and it shifts there, because there's no time/speed/power to be gained by delaying the upshift...

Also, FWIW, it's not just '13s that do this - pretty much ALL DSG B8 S4s do this, regardless of year.

I don't necessarily disagree with you in stock form. However, looking at dyno charts of tuned S4s, the power is NOT falling off at that point, thus it appears the DSG cars are leaving power on the table by shifting early. Once we get a DSG tune, this will be a moot point :-)

[zcd2.7t]

The DSG shifts at the "sweet spot" of the powerband?

I've always figured that since Audi's engineers spent countless development hours developing the car's systems, that they would know best how to make the engine and transmission(s) work together.

Saying "....IT DOESN'T WAIT UNTIL REDLINE TO SHIFT, SO THAT'S NOT RIGHT!" seems amazingly short-sighted and lacking in perspective to me.

The car's stock tuning stops making additional power over about 6K rpm, so what's to be gained by delaying the shift at that point?

[zcd2.7t]

I don't necessarily disagree with you in stock form. However, looking at dyno charts of tuned S4s, the power is NOT falling off at that point, thus it appears the DSG cars are leaving power on the table by shifting early. Once we get a DSG tune, this will be a moot point :-)

Clearly, changing the engine's powerband by tuning potentially makes the TCU's stock tuning less effective. Duh - at that point, the systems weren't engineered to work together any more.

"...Once we get a DSG tune...." - big assumption there.

[thedollardoctor]

Clearly, changing the engine's powerband by tuning potentially makes the TCU's stock tuning less effective. Duh - at that point, the systems weren't engineered to work together any more.

"...Once we get a DSG tune...." - big assumption there.

Yeah, thanks man, wasn't exactly arguing that point so , okay.

As for DSG tune, well, time will tell, but I have it on good authority this is already in the works......AND stassis already has prototype DSG software being tested sooooooo, yeah, NOT that big of an assumption. Maybe do a bit more research before flexing internets muscles :-)

http://www.europeancarweb.com/events/epcp_1211_bucket_list_event/viewall.html#.UOWwoo3BkX0.facebook

[zcd2.7t]

...time will tell, but I have it on good authority this is already in the works......Maybe do a bit more research....

You're at least the eleventy-seventh person to "have it on good authority that (fill in the blank with the tuning company of your choice) has DSG software "in the works."

Speaking of doing a bit more research, we'll all be more inclined to be impressed with your knowledge of the B8/8.5 S4 situation after you've hung around here for more than 60 days....

[jedirocker]

<sigh>My first time to race my S4 was from a 30 mph rolling start...I failed miserably against the modified Mustang 5.0 at launch because I trusted the DSG. The delay of it downshifting was my downfall. I would've been neck-and-neck had I downshifted manually. Lesson learned.

[audisarecool]

Question: What makes you think that it would be "better" in some way if the car ran all the way out to redline before shifting? The power peak is well below redline, and it shifts there, because there's no time/speed/power to be gained by delaying the upshift...

Also, FWIW, it's not just '13s that do this - pretty much ALL DSG B8 S4s do this, regardless of year.

It is my understanding that because of torque multiplication from gearing, redlining a lower gear will still produce more torque at the wheels than the "sweet spot" in the gear above it, or something to that effect.

I by no means consider myself an expert so if someone with better info would like to correct me, please do.

Edit: good article on the subject: http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html


I've always figured that since Audi's engineers spent countless development hours developing the car's systems, that they would know best how to make the engine and transmission(s) work together.

Saying "....IT DOESN'T WAIT UNTIL REDLINE TO SHIFT, SO THAT'S NOT RIGHT!" seems amazingly short-sighted and lacking in perspective to me.

I think it depends on what someone's definition of "best" is, in relation to how the engine and transmission work together. In Audi's mind, "best" is likely "perform moderately well while maintaining maximum reliability." Where as for the average AZ'er the definition of best could simply mean "fastest." It's not that Audi doesn't "know" what's best, it's just a reasonable assumption that they won't give it to us straight from the factory.

[thedollardoctor]

You're at least the eleventy-seventh person to "have it on good authority that (fill in the blank with the tuning company of your choice) has DSG software "in the works."

Speaking of doing a bit more research, we'll all be more inclined to be impressed with your knowledge of the B8/8.5 S4 situation after you've hung around here for more than 60 days....

Wow, so you're just really grumpy huh?. Just because I've only been around HERE for 60 days doesn't mean I haven't contributed and don't know what I'm talking about. I think there are plenty of people on here who would attest to my contributions to the community in such a short amount of time. But yeah, I guess I should just troll around and not try to contribute until I have more "experience" like you.

Read the article man, Stassis already has DSG software up and running. It's only a matter of time till it is available to the public from someone. Where there is a demand, there will be a supply and until the 2013 models, I don't think there has really been as big of a demand as there is now. It's clear the DSG software in the B8.5 is much more conservative than the B8s. But the that's just MY opinion and what the hell do I know, apparently not as much as you :-)

[thedollardoctor]

I think it depends on what someone's definition of "best" is, in relation to how the engine and transmission work together. In Audi's mind, "best" is likely "perform moderately well while maintaining maximum reliability." Where as for the average AZ'er the definition of best could simply mean "fastest." It's not that Audi doesn't "know" what's best, it's just a reasonable assumption that they won't give it to us straight from the factory.

Agree with this 100%. Audi, like all car manufacturers has MANY different goals when engineering a car like this and reliability often trumps pure power and speed. I for one can appreciate that. I just don't intend to keep it that way, but that's just me....... and I think most of us on here as well

[Leor604]

I think it depends on what someone's definition of "best" is, in relation to how the engine and transmission work together. In Audi's mind, "best" is likely "perform moderately well while maintaining maximum reliability." Where as for the average AZ'er the definition of best could simply mean "fastest." It's not that Audi doesn't "know" what's best, it's just a reasonable assumption that they won't give it to us straight from the factory.

Ummm, best means best and nothing else. Sorry, but neither the performance or the reliability of the DSG strikes me as being "best". To think that Audi knows how to do better but "won't give it to us" is ludicrous. DSG is an evolving technology that will get better with time, but it's not "best" yet.

[esz61]

I've always figured that since Audi's engineers spent countless development hours developing the car's systems, that they would know best how to make the engine and transmission(s) work together.


+1

[esz61]

Ummm, best means best and nothing else. Sorry, but neither the performance or the reliability of the DSG strikes me as being "best". To think that Audi knows how to do better but "won't give it to us" is ludicrous. DSG is an evolving technology that will get better with time, but it's not "best" yet.

Amen!

[audisarecool]

Ummm, best means best and nothing else. Sorry, but neither the performance or the reliability of the DSG strikes me as being "best". To think that Audi knows how to do better but "won't give it to us" is ludicrous. DSG is an evolving technology that will get better with time, but it's not "best" yet.

To me, "best" given the current scenario (I'm not getting into an argument over future dsg tech) would be bouncing off the rev limiter in manual mode like the old Infiniti FX. It would be revving to redline under WOT in automatic and I don't care if that means the tranny would blow up after 50k miles; Because I won't have the car anymore. That is best to me. Could audi pull that off? Probably. But they chose not to, and for good reason.

Best to them is the engine/tranny lasting to 200k miles and that likely involves less aggressive engine / tranny tuning. Half of that we know to be true already, a la the multitude of ECU tuning options.

"Best" without guidance to what you're ultimate goal is, is a meaningless word.

[Leor604]

To me, "best" given the current scenario (I'm not getting into an argument over future dsg tech) would be bouncing off the rev limiter in manual mode like the old Infiniti FX. It would be revving to redline under WOT in automatic and I don't care if that means the tranny would blow up after 50k miles; Because I won't have the car anymore. That is best to me. Could audi pull that off? Probably. But they chose not to, and for good reason.

What is the "good reason" for choosing to withhold redline shifts???

If safe redline is 6500, then paint the redline on the tach and put the limiter at 6500. Putting the redline at 7000 and then not letting you use it is a fail, plain and simple.

[audisarecool]

What is the "good reason" for choosing to withhold redline shifts???

If safe redline is 6500, then paint the redline on the tach and put the limiter at 6500. Putting the redline at 7000 and then not letting you use it is a fail, plain and simple.

We're in agreement.. Lol

[zcd2.7t]

..I think there are plenty of people on here who would attest to my contributions...

I can personally attest to your being EXTREMELY impressed with your own self....YOU GO!


Read the article man..

I did. I'll believe it when I see it shown as available for purchase on their website.

Things like new software have shown a tendency to take a LOT longer than the "...it's imminent/2 weeks..." usually promised by the tuner.

'Course, if you'd been around here for more than 2 months, you'd probably realize that...

[thedollardoctor]

I can personally attest to your being EXTREMELY impressed with your own self....YOU GO!



I did. I'll believe it when I see it shown as available for purchase on their website.

Things like new software have shown a tendency to take a LOT longer than the "...it's imminent/2 weeks..." usually promised by the tuner.

'Course, if you'd been around here for more than 2 months, you'd probably realize that...

Ok man, you're right, my bad. Moving on now.......