High Cost of Air Intakes

[dgszweda]

I am baffled when I look at the high cost of some of these very simple intakes. For example, when I look at the Injen intake, you can buy most of those parts online, except for the cutting and creasing of the heat shield, which you could decide not to do, like in the Roc-Euro intake. If I were to price out an intake like Injen's, it would be roughly:


Actual Injen Air Filter - $53
Velocity Stack - $12
Intake Tube - $25
Heat Shield - $25
Misc. Clamps - $5 -$10


Total of $120 to $125. Now granted they are allowed to make a profit. Remember these costs are based on single item purchase, not negotiated bulk or wholesale, which could drive the costs down by 25%-50%. They are charging $345-$350 for one of these. Now I am not trying to rip apart Injen. They are entitled to charge as they please without being criticized. There are many other alternatives and we are entitled to pick as we choose, so I am not tryng to criticize Injen. All I am saying is that a number of these intakes are built or could be built on off the shelf parts, for a fraction of the cost.

Has anyone else made their own homemade intake?

[well_armed]

Your first mistake in your cost analysis is that you have only considered the "cost" of parts, forgetting any other related costs, both variable and fixed associated with running a business (shipping from manufacturer, storage, rent, wages, 401K, insurance, etc.).

If you can do it for a fraction of the cost, go for it. But coming on here and complaining about the astronomical cost of aftermarket intakes shows how little you know.

[dgszweda]

Your first mistake in your cost analysis is that you have only considered the "cost" of parts, forgetting any other related costs, both variable and fixed associated with running a business (shipping from manufacturer, storage, rent, wages, 401K, insurance, etc.).

If you can do it for a fraction of the cost, go for it. But coming on here and complaining about the astronomical cost of aftermarket intakes shows how little you know.

Actually I never forgot any of the other related costs. I know there are costs to run the business, hence the higher cost for the intake than what the parts are. In addition, I am not complaining about the costs, and I think I was quite clear in my posts. I really don't care or mind what they charge. Lastly, this is not the same as sanding your own floors. That takes many days of work. What I am saying here is that most of these parts can already be ordered on line, including the brand name of the filter. The difference in ordering a prebuilt intake and building your own is sometimes the difference between 3 to 4 mouse clicks.

Due to the higher costs of buying a prebuilt one and the ease of building your own, I was curious as to how many people may have built their own, to save money. That is it. It was not to rip apart any manufacturer and such, and yes I realize thy have all kinds of fixed costs, just as any business had. But this is the WEB2.0 generation and we have a lot of options out there with some ingenuity.

[well_armed]

Here you go (click me (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=audi+s4+diy+intake)). :-)

[PitchS4]

I'd love it if someone like 034 made an intake tube for cheap. I have thought about making my own but the vac connection complicates things.

[nunonbreak]

Intakes are so cheap compared to the other mods you can do to a car. DIY ceramic brake kit, that's what we need.

Could I use those red clay pots from home depot and cut off the bottom?

[phillips2024]

there should be a facepalm smiley [>_>]

[zamm3k]

Your first mistake in your cost analysis is that you have only considered the "cost" of parts, forgetting any other related costs, both variable and fixed associated with running a business (shipping from manufacturer, storage, rent, wages, 401K, insurance, etc.).

If you can do it for a fraction of the cost, go for it. But coming on here and complaining about the astronomical cost of aftermarket intakes shows how little you know.

Wow dude. You're a dick. And you should have read his post twice. He actually stated at the end he wasn't complaining. I think it's a fair observation.

To the OP. I think intake's are on the cheaper part of the spectrum of modding, but I do feel that they are a tad overpriced. No ridiculously like you may be assuming, but I do think they are overpriced. Either way, supply and demand is pretty much what's at work here.

[Ynnekdude]

Has anyone else made their own homemade intake?

Yeah... I got one made for $650... [:D]

But in this regard, people can make some pretty cool stuff if they are patient and have the right resources. For instance, one can buy abs plastic sheets on ebay/amazon and make an entire airbox that looks oem with heat gun and a vice.

[well_armed]

Wow dude. You're a dick. And you should have read his post twice. He actually stated at the end he wasn't complaining. I think it's a fair observation.

To the OP. I think intake's are on the cheaper part of the spectrum of modding, but I do feel that they are a tad overpriced. No ridiculously like you may be assuming, but I do think they are overpriced. Either way, supply and demand is pretty much what's at work here.

I am pretty sure the entire post was a criticism sandwich. Sorry, wasn't trying to be a dick, just direct.

As a business owner, I get this type of complaint all the time. People sometimes need to be reminded that a business doesn't run on unicorn blood and pixie dust.

[zamm3k]

I am pretty sure the entire post was a criticism sandwich. Sorry, wasn't trying to be a dick, just direct.

As a business owner, I get this type of complaint all the time. People sometimes need to be reminded that a business doesn't run on unicorn blood and pixie dust.

Understood. I still think the OP took a pretty good stance. I read it and I don't feel like he was complaining. Maybe I'm just used to so many complainers on this forum. :P

[korben]

Right or wrong, the market is what it is. Parts for higher end cars tend to have fatter margins for a number of reasons.

[richib86]

dude search the forums neeeeewb [facepalm] haha
there should be a facepalm smiley [>_>]

[oc cc]

I have worked with Injen in the past, and trust me when I say this.... not all suppliers/manufacturers are equal. Injen not only manufactures quality parts, but they are very easy to deal with, both on a consumer end and as a distributor. Ed is a great guy who really loves the community and will do his best to help anyone out. The quality of that intake, as well as the Roc Euro intake, AWE intake, etc are all great, and some people would rather pay more to get a complete package with customer support. That is not to say you are doing yourself a disservice by making your own, and if you do, great! TCHUN usually buys his own parts and makes his own mods, so hats off to anyone resourceful enough to do that. I feel besides the carbonio, the other intakes are actually not too bad in terms of price.

[phillips2024]

damn! ahahha

[John@Roc-Euro]

I am baffled when I look at the high cost of some of these very simple intakes. For example, when I look at the Injen intake, you can buy most of those parts online, except for the cutting and creasing of the heat shield, which you could decide not to do, like in the Roc-Euro intake. If I were to price out an intake like Injen's, it would be roughly:


Actual Injen Air Filter - $53
Velocity Stack - $12
Intake Tube - $25
Heat Shield - $25
Misc. Clamps - $5 -$10


Total of $120 to $125. Now granted they are allowed to make a profit. Remember these costs are based on single item purchase, not negotiated bulk or wholesale, which could drive the costs down by 25%-50%. They are charging $345-$350 for one of these. Now I am not trying to rip apart Injen. They are entitled to charge as they please without being criticized. There are many other alternatives and we are entitled to pick as we choose, so I am not tryng to criticize Injen. All I am saying is that a number of these intakes are built or could be built on off the shelf parts, for a fraction of the cost.

Has anyone else made their own homemade intake?

But there are more aspects:
Quality of materials. What are you using for the "intake tube"? Mild Steel? It'll rust. Aluminum? It'll corrode if you're near the ocean/salted road winters. So now we're at plastic, carbon, or stainless. I just hit up google for pre-fab stainless bends. First up, you're not going to find that its a stock bend angle. But hey, lets run with it. Piece of SS tube with 1 bend- $33. Might need another bend, or more material. Either way, you're looking at more like $50 in tube materials. Plus you'll need to weld it, or add another silicone coupler. Silicone couplers - $6 each. Need one from the throttle body to the tube, and tube to tube since you're not welding. IMHO welding pretty much shuts down the whole DIY aspect. So there's $12 for 2. You'll need 4 clamps for those too, $2 each at the hardware store. $8 total. Shipping on tubes and couplers- $16 and $8. $24. So you're at about $86 and you've got a very poorly fitting tube.

Filter, sure, $50. Quality is a variable, but maybe the cheaper one will work better in this case because it can deform to the poorly fitting tube.

We're now at $136 without a heat shield.

Ahhh but you forgot about the breather port on the back of the intake tube! Maybe you'll drill a hole and epoxy in a stem. $5 for a drill bit that'll make it through the stainless, $8 for epoxy, $3 for the bung. +$16. $152 running total.

Heatshield- maybe you hit up a store with some sheet metal. they give you a piece big enough for $8, not bad. $160. This can be mild steel, but you'll have to coat it. Thermal spray paint, $12. $172.
how are you going to cut this? Maybe you've got tinsnips in the garage. You're gonna fuck your hands up. $4 for bandaids. $176. [:D]

Ok, so you've got that. What about that other breather filter? The little one? Dang. Ok, well, crankcase breather filter will work, right? $10. but it doesnt fit at all. Maybe you chop up the OEM hose and stuff it over. Fine. $186.

So lets install this beast, right? At $186 plus 6 trips the hardware store, you're lookin good.
But a heatshield that is just a flat piece doesn't work. It doesn't stay in place. And it splits more of the air coming in through the hood towards the engine itself now.
So you go back and get more metal, cut a funky piece after spending a couple hours figuring the shape, then slap it in a vice and bend it over to make tabs.. recut into your other heatshield and fake a way to epoxy or bolt them together.
Sure it scratches everything in the bay and clanks at idle, but you're still under $200.
I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

And it's still hoopty looking[:p]

Roc-Euro, ready to rock, $349, 15 minutes to install, best power out of the batch, puts a grin on your face, and keeps your knuckles intact, without looking like a trainwreck under the hood. [up]


naturally this is for fun.

[phillips2024]

^ good read [:D]

[nunonbreak]

The S4 is waaaayyy to expensive. Can't be more than 30k worth of parts in there. I should just build my own.

[jasonE30m3]

But there are more aspects:
Quality of materials. What are you using for the "intake tube"? Mild Steel? It'll rust. Aluminum? It'll corrode if you're near the ocean/salted road winters. So now we're at plastic, carbon, or stainless. I just hit up google for pre-fab stainless bends. First up, you're not going to find that its a stock bend angle. But hey, lets run with it. Piece of SS tube with 1 bend- $33. Might need another bend, or more material. Either way, you're looking at more like $50 in tube materials. Plus you'll need to weld it, or add another silicone coupler. Silicone couplers - $6 each. Need one from the throttle body to the tube, and tube to tube since you're not welding. IMHO welding pretty much shuts down the whole DIY aspect. So there's $12 for 2. You'll need 4 clamps for those too, $2 each at the hardware store. $8 total. Shipping on tubes and couplers- $16 and $8. $24. So you're at about $86 and you've got a very poorly fitting tube.

Filter, sure, $50. Quality is a variable, but maybe the cheaper one will work better in this case because it can deform to the poorly fitting tube.

We're now at $136 without a heat shield.

Ahhh but you forgot about the breather port on the back of the intake tube! Maybe you'll drill a hole and epoxy in a stem. $5 for a drill bit that'll make it through the stainless, $8 for epoxy, $3 for the bung. +$16. $152 running total.

Heatshield- maybe you hit up a store with some sheet metal. they give you a piece big enough for $8, not bad. $160. This can be mild steel, but you'll have to coat it. Thermal spray paint, $12. $172.
how are you going to cut this? Maybe you've got tinsnips in the garage. You're gonna fuck your hands up. $4 for bandaids. $176. [:D]

Ok, so you've got that. What about that other breather filter? The little one? Dang. Ok, well, crankcase breather filter will work, right? $10. but it doesnt fit at all. Maybe you chop up the OEM hose and stuff it over. Fine. $186.

So lets install this beast, right? At $186 plus 6 trips the hardware store, you're lookin good.
But a heatshield that is just a flat piece doesn't work. It doesn't stay in place. And it splits more of the air coming in through the hood towards the engine itself now.
So you go back and get more metal, cut a funky piece after spending a couple hours figuring the shape, then slap it in a vice and bend it over to make tabs.. recut into your other heatshield and fake a way to epoxy or bolt them together.
Sure it scratches everything in the bay and clanks at idle, but you're still under $200.
I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

And it's still hoopty looking[:p]

Roc-Euro, ready to rock, $349, 15 minutes to install, best power out of the batch, puts a grin on your face, and keeps your knuckles intact, without looking like a trainwreck under the hood. [up]


naturally this is for fun.


one of the best quotes I've ever seen a car forum!!

Cheers for the entertainment

[thedollardoctor]

@ John@Roc-Euro, that was hillarious!!! Thanks for entertaining me as I wait in this hour long line to vote today!!

[well_armed]

I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

Don't forget to capture the lost wage incurred from working on your car, instead of doing actual work that makes you money. (opportunity cost)

So if you make 100K per year, that is basically $273.97 in potential lost wages (before taxes).

[Toecutter]

Somewhere in the equation supply and demand has to figure in. If people want it enough, and are willing to pay money for it, then the price is justified.

[Vogz]

Right or wrong, the market is what it is. Parts for higher end cars tend to have fatter margins for a number of reasons.

One reason and one reason only. People that pay more for cars will pay more for aftermarket parts for said cars. Corvette owners call it "Corvette tax", Porsche owners call it "Porsche tax".

There is little more "cost" involved in designing and building simple short ram intake for a S4 vs. a Civic, yet the S4s intake price will be higher simply because the customer buying an S4 intake is willing to spend more money for one.

Case in point. My AWE exhaust was $1749 without downpipes. It's a very nice exhaust, but my Greddy Evo TT exhaust for my Z is just as well constructed with the same T304 mandrel bent stainless steel and TIG welding and it cost $1200 without downpipes. Both are true dual with a crossover pipe, and both have high quality resonators and mufflers. Look at quality Mustang exhausts and the gap widens even more.

That's simply "Audi Tax" for you.

[dgszweda]

Boy, did a lot of you guys miss the point and focus on the "ripping on profit/cost" argument, which I specifically said I wasn't making. Let alone, no one answered the question.

With that said, I could have changed the title a little. I have noticed that in the forum here, I haven't seen a ton of DYI type of jobs. There are some but maybe not as much as what I have seen before in other car manufacturer forums. I picked an intake because 1) it is not complicated to make, 2) the cost of intakes on the market in relative nature to the true cost of the actual supplies is quite high (i.e. most people are not going to do chip tuning DIY because the cost of the work on one far outweighs the cost of buying a manufacturered one, 3) there seems like there is still a lot more innovation that can b done in the intake department, and 4) people seem to be looking for a cheaper, maybe DIY alternative (whenever there is a group buy to save a few dollars a lot of people are jumping on it, which equates to still a strong demand for a cheaper price point).

DIY, an exhaust doesn't make sense to most people because you need access to some equipment most people don't have. Most of the parts on the intake can be found off of the shelf, there isn't real science behind these. Most of the filters that anyone is using are just commercial filters you can buy elsewhere. I am not saying that any of the manufacturers don't put there heart into the process, that they are just ripping off people and that they aren't providing value (else they wouldn't be selling any). I just thought the cost variable would have spurred some DIYers out there and possibly on this forum.

I can remember (when I had a Mini Cooper), that a DIYer designed an intake housing that had a door that opened up at certain RPMs, so that it was quite driving around town (just like stock), but a full banshee wail on full throttle. It was pretty easy to make. Later on, BMW used the same type of design in their factory intake system. All of the tuners on this forum, didn't just wake up one day and opened the door on a multi-million dollar tuning shop. They all started out as doing some DIY tuning on the side and developed stuff that could be marketed. I just thought there might be DIYers out here in the intake space.

Here is one guy I know from the mini space that created M7 totally from his garage as a DIYer. I can remember when this intake that he sells he was playing around on the forum with some various hardware store based designs. It was basically his first product that started his company and he is now becoming quite successful. (http://www.m7tuning.com/parts/product_info.php?cPath=7_1&products_id=4)

So you can say I am just trying to rip apart Injen or Roc or anyone else, but that isn't the case. I chose theirs, because it was harder for me to illustrate the costs for a custom carbon fiber based intake, nor do most of us own that type of material or have that expertise. So again, I ask, has anyone worked on their own DIY intake for fun? And less you ask, why am I asking this. Well first it was for fun, and second I was thinking about building a design for fun. Not because I can save a few bucks. But because I won't waste thousands of dollars and it can be fun.

[wwhan]

As for cost, one can get cheaper prices on a higher volume performance car (more sales to amortize).

The "free intake" on the stock S4, still allows pretty good power on the dyno & is pretty stealth. The after market intake performance difference is about the same difference one gets with weather changes.

There appears to be plenty of a market for $350+ aftermarket Audi S4 intakes, since there are so many offerings.

[Vogz]

The "free intake" on the stock S4, still allows pretty good power on the dyno & is pretty stealth.

I must have missed something a good while back. What simple modification can be preformed on the stock intake for more power?

[John@Roc-Euro]

Most of the aftermarket intakes have been shown to make some level of power over stock, and certain ones [:D] make more than those. Plus, weather changes when combined with said aftermarket products = bigger change.


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/366165-new-Intake-Custom-made-looks-and-sounds-great?highlight=custom+intake

There you go. That's Finesta101's effort at making his own. Still had someone else cut the heatshield. But there you go.

On a related note,


1) it is not complicated to make
Depends on personal skill level, tools, and goals


2) the cost of intakes on the market in relative nature to the true cost of the actual supplies is quite high
I dunno, considering the Carbonio is all real-deal carbon fiber, I think its cost is reasonable for the supplies involved. Actually, I think ALL* of the intakes are reasonable in cost.
*Injen's is listed at $460 retail, always on sale for $350-360. Actual price paid is reasonable.


3) there seems like there is still a lot more innovation that can b done in the intake department
Ehh, I love progress, and I love evolution, but until some other hardware on the car changes, there will be no ground-breaking new product in that department. The bases were covered very quickly and easily.
The Roc-Euro intake handles full replacement, simple design, best power gains, and the most volume. APR offers one gorgeous layout with carbon fiber with the Carbonio, and AWE offers a quieter solution that is very discrete.
Beyond that, what do you have left to do? A more elaborate set up would cost more, a less elaborate set up would function less. Heck at one point, I thought about doing what I would describe as a 'valved' intake, one that allowed user control of the sound. But it would just add cost and complexity. Kind of a 'why bother' situation.


4) people seem to be looking for a cheaper, maybe DIY alternative
The reality is that "DIY" typically needs to be a simple, easy mod that can be performed at home. take for example 'the flapper mod' on prior VAG cars- you basically disconnect a vacuum line from the OEM exhaust, plug it, and clamp the exhaust valve open. Presto, DIY performance exhaust sound at literally no cost. That's a perfect DIY. Want more sound but don't want to buy an exhaust? Gotcha covered.\


whenever there is a group buy to save a few dollars a lot of people are jumping on it, which equates to still a strong demand for a cheaper price point.
People love sales and deals. Take APR- everyone buys fully loaded ECU tunes during their predictable sale times. It's not because the stuff is "too" expensive, it's because you know if you wait, it'll be available for less in a reasonable amount of time.
I assure you I have run the group buys due to our (now former) delays in production while setting up new equipment.

So that's mostly my thoughts on it. I do enjoy a good debate/conversation/discussion, and hope that I don't come across as anything other than that.

[UmIsThisThingOn]

there should be a facepalm smiley [>_>]

There is... [facepalm] it's even called facepalm [:)]

[korben]

One reason and one reason only. People that pay more for cars will pay more for aftermarket parts for said cars. Corvette owners call it "Corvette tax", Porsche owners call it "Porsche tax".

There is little more "cost" involved in designing and building simple short ram intake for a S4 vs. a Civic, yet the S4s intake price will be higher simply because the customer buying an S4 intake is willing to spend more money for one.

Case in point. My AWE exhaust was $1749 without downpipes. It's a very nice exhaust, but my Greddy Evo TT exhaust for my Z is just as well constructed with the same T304 mandrel bent stainless steel and TIG welding and it cost $1200 without downpipes. Both are true dual with a crossover pipe, and both have high quality resonators and mufflers. Look at quality Mustang exhausts and the gap widens even more.

That's simply "Audi Tax" for you.

Yes, there is an "Audi tax" as there is a Apple tax, BMW tax, you name it, but that's not the only reason. Its more expensive, generally speaking, to develop on higher end cars, less volume vs more common cars (so they need bigger margins to make it profitable), and in many cases (not all) better materials.

[jeffc31337]

Most of the aftermarket intakes have been shown to make some level of power over stock, and certain ones [:D] make more than those. Plus, weather changes when combined with said aftermarket products = bigger change.



John -- Could you repost that dyno of your intake versus a competitors? Also did you dyno a stock car on the same dyno we could overlay? I have the AWE and my logging/butt dyno haven't show any positive effects and i'm tuned!

[John@Roc-Euro]

John -- Could you repost that dyno of your intake versus a competitors? Also did you dyno a stock car on the same dyno we could overlay? I have the AWE and my logging/butt dyno haven't show any positive effects and i'm tuned!

As for dyno graphs, I have only one anymore. Sadly when Strat went down, that was some of the info I could not take with me.
So- in development, on a mustang dyno, bone stock software, we saw 7-9hp to the wheels. I believe most intake numbers from other manufacturers are at the crank. I have not seen anyone repeat any intake-only pulls with a tune or pulley file, but I know that drag strip times have improved. Couple of the top B8 S4 drag times are roc-euro/strat intake equipped. Some guys saw a tenth off in the quarter with just the intake (Primetime/81bear).

The best dyno sheet I have, however, is an independent test done by Apikol Tuning. They ran the same car on their dyno with our intake and AWE's intake. From an engineering perspective, the AWE and APR (and to a lesser extent, the Injen) are all effectively the same design. Retains OEM box, smooths out the rear tubing. The Injen has some gaps, which if anything, hurt the situation. Regardless- from a comparison perspective, they are all the same design, whereas the Roc-Euro intake completely removes the OEM box and allows more airflow, and allows colder airflow. So-

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3314/5834281221_ddf605eaef_b.jpg

What you're looking at there is our intake making more power than the AWE system, noticeable above 5000rpm. The Roc-Euro Intake just flows more air. So from a power perspective, whatever the other tuners are saying for power increase, we're making more than that.

Additionally, here is CircuitTested showing over a half second decrease in lap times with the intake:
http://circuittested.com/2011/08/10/update-stratmosphere-hyperflow-intake/

And here is their independent logging showing that the Roc-Euro is truly capable of flowing colder air than the stock box.
http://circuittested.com/2011/06/28/stratmosphere-hyperflow-intake/

I hope that offers some solid quantification for you. The intake adds excellent character to the car, increases performance, and backs up its claims. That's what I shoot for with all of the product I design [up]

[well_armed]

I believe most intake numbers from other manufacturers are at the crank.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/media/dynosheets/B8_S4/AWE_B8_Sflo_intake_wheels.jpg

From AWE site

[John@Roc-Euro]

Excellent. So AWE says +5hp/9tq to the wheels. I saw peaks of 9awhp/11awtq on the very first runs back in the day.
The Apikol graph shows our gains north of 5k once tuned. Peak gaps of 2hp and 7tq at around 6500rpm. It's a noticeable enough divergence for an intake alone.
Again, with the discussion being which flows better/stronger, there is the answer.
Of course, the AWE is quieter, and not everyone wants to change from the OEM sound. I think everyone wins for different reasons when they get an intake.

[oc cc]

You know John, by virtue of providing so much consumer info and even praising your competitor, not only shows your professionalism, but also that you truly love the community and are not out to just make a sale. I just want to say thanks on behalf of other members who feel the same, please continue being a great asset to the community [up]

[Brooklyn]

I haven't been able to justify the $350 for one of these things yet...despite getting it for the old B6...but you had me laughing all the way to the wallet just now. Good read brother, and surprisingly spot on despite the humor.


But there are more aspects:
Quality of materials. What are you using for the "intake tube"? Mild Steel? It'll rust. Aluminum? It'll corrode if you're near the ocean/salted road winters. So now we're at plastic, carbon, or stainless. I just hit up google for pre-fab stainless bends. First up, you're not going to find that its a stock bend angle. But hey, lets run with it. Piece of SS tube with 1 bend- $33. Might need another bend, or more material. Either way, you're looking at more like $50 in tube materials. Plus you'll need to weld it, or add another silicone coupler. Silicone couplers - $6 each. Need one from the throttle body to the tube, and tube to tube since you're not welding. IMHO welding pretty much shuts down the whole DIY aspect. So there's $12 for 2. You'll need 4 clamps for those too, $2 each at the hardware store. $8 total. Shipping on tubes and couplers- $16 and $8. $24. So you're at about $86 and you've got a very poorly fitting tube.

Filter, sure, $50. Quality is a variable, but maybe the cheaper one will work better in this case because it can deform to the poorly fitting tube.

We're now at $136 without a heat shield.

Ahhh but you forgot about the breather port on the back of the intake tube! Maybe you'll drill a hole and epoxy in a stem. $5 for a drill bit that'll make it through the stainless, $8 for epoxy, $3 for the bung. +$16. $152 running total.

Heatshield- maybe you hit up a store with some sheet metal. they give you a piece big enough for $8, not bad. $160. This can be mild steel, but you'll have to coat it. Thermal spray paint, $12. $172.
how are you going to cut this? Maybe you've got tinsnips in the garage. You're gonna fuck your hands up. $4 for bandaids. $176. [:D]

Ok, so you've got that. What about that other breather filter? The little one? Dang. Ok, well, crankcase breather filter will work, right? $10. but it doesnt fit at all. Maybe you chop up the OEM hose and stuff it over. Fine. $186.

So lets install this beast, right? At $186 plus 6 trips the hardware store, you're lookin good.
But a heatshield that is just a flat piece doesn't work. It doesn't stay in place. And it splits more of the air coming in through the hood towards the engine itself now.
So you go back and get more metal, cut a funky piece after spending a couple hours figuring the shape, then slap it in a vice and bend it over to make tabs.. recut into your other heatshield and fake a way to epoxy or bolt them together.
Sure it scratches everything in the bay and clanks at idle, but you're still under $200.
I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

And it's still hoopty looking[:p]

Roc-Euro, ready to rock, $349, 15 minutes to install, best power out of the batch, puts a grin on your face, and keeps your knuckles intact, without looking like a trainwreck under the hood. [up]


naturally this is for fun.

[FatalBert]

there should be a facepalm smiley [>_>]

[facepalm]

lol, I think the point the OP is trying to make is that the intake parts themselves are simple, easily obtainable and most of all a TON cheaper than the aftermarket solutions.

However, OP, the research put into designing an intake for our cars probably (I assume) went through some trial and error phases in selecting the optimal parts.
Not that there is so much variation in intake tubes and filters, but enough for some of us to want a plug-n-play type solution that also looks more streamlined than most home brewed ones.

I for one just ordered a Roc-Euro intake because they just came out with the red filters. I found it a PITA to look around for a red filter that would provide the most optimal filter element, and give me all the proper info to be able to construct one with proper tubing clamps etc.
Also, that little vacuum hose filter was a big factor that led me to not want to deal with it on my own.

[jdwk]

I made my own intake shroud out of ABS plastic for my C6. This design was later copied or perhaps thought of independently but was marketed as the "Beehive" to shroud the "Killer Bee" filter. They charge $99 for it. It took me and a friend most of a day and quite a bit of trial and error with the plastic to get it to seal right and look professional. There is definitely some pride in doing something yourself, but if I had to do it over again, I would probably just buy the $99 part.

I also have an Injen intake on my MSP. It was kind of nutty expensive at $275, but it does look its price, and there is no way I could ever make anything as nice. It would have required all sorts of pieces. It's also rather ingenious and uses a hole in the engine bay where the windshield wiper fluid reservoir sits on the opposite symmetrical part to separate it from the engine bay and draw in cold air. So I give them credit where credit is due.

Given my first hand experience with Injen's quality I would lean towards their product over the others, but $350 is a lot of coin. It is $75 more than my MSP intake was and it is a whole lot less complex, and whole lot less material. So this is clearly an Audi tax. Injen is charging more because Audi owners have more money. I am not really buying the volume argument either considering how few MSPs were even made, but they have no reason to charge any less than the other intakes available.

So I may give a homemade trick a shot. If I do, I'll do a nice write-up.

[Vogz]

Yes, there is an "Audi tax" as there is a Apple tax, BMW tax, you name it, but that's not the only reason. Its more expensive, generally speaking, to develop on higher end cars, less volume vs more common cars (so they need bigger margins to make it profitable), and in many cases (not all) better materials.

Why is it more expensive to design a short ram intake for an S4 vs. another, cheaper vehicle with a fully exposed, longitudinally mounted V6?

I'm not buying the "less volume" argument. Most of the manufacturers of intakes for the S4 are low volume manufacturers as is. They don't need to sell thousands to make it profitable, especially when their margin is probably almost $200/unit

Better materials in an Injen intake for a Civic Si vs. a S4? Riiight.

[Ynnekdude]

What are all of your thoughts on velocity stacks? Per my knowledge, no aftermarket intakes offered for the S4 have them and I've seen conflicting information.

Also, here's my custom system. It's a work in progress.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Ynnekdude/5-5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Ynnekdude/4-7.jpg


I'll soon be running a scoop and ducting from my lower fog grill up into the airbox. The plastic behind the kidneys in the lower fog grill is already removed so its a straight shot up into the airbox. However, I think air tends to swirl around in the lower fog area at speed and not make its way up to the filter in any sort of efficient manner, hence the ducting in the future. Also, making an airbox cover out of ABS plastic. "Scoop" and ducting are here, ordering the ABS plastic sheets and a heat gun soon.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/hre-re206_w.jpg

[John@Roc-Euro]

None of my local A6 guys ever came through! I'm totally ready to knock an intake out for you guys, just need a car to swing by!! That being said I enjoy your project. [up]

The interior base of our filters have a velocity stack built in, as well as an inverse method on the internal cone section too.

[Ynnekdude]

None of my local A6 guys ever came through! I'm totally ready to knock an intake out for you guys, just need a car to swing by!! That being said I enjoy your project. [up]

The interior base of our filters have a velocity stack built in, as well as an inverse method on the internal cone section too.

If I was closer, there's no doubt my car would have been in your shop the second you showed interest in developing one. I had actually bought one of the S4 intakes a while back, hoping it could be modified to fit my car. Unfortunately, no [:(]

[helix139]

From an engineering perspective, the AWE and APR (and to a lesser extent, the Injen) are all effectively the same design. Retains OEM box, smooths out the rear tubing.

APR's intake is a little different from Injen or AWE as it removes the kink in the airflow that the stock airbox has with that restrictive plastic duct that directs airflow away from the filter and toward the bottom of the airbox. The other two do not. That is a significant difference, IMO. APR and Roc Euro/Strat are the only two intakes that direct air directly onto the filter. IMO, either are going to give very similar results from a performance perspective.

[korben]

Why is it more expensive to design a short ram intake for an S4 vs. another, cheaper vehicle with a fully exposed, longitudinally mounted V6?

I'm not buying the "less volume" argument. Most of the manufacturers of intakes for the S4 are low volume manufacturers as is. They don't need to sell thousands to make it profitable, especially when their margin is probably almost $200/unit

Better materials in an Injen intake for a Civic Si vs. a S4? Riiight.

I'm speaking generally about aftermarket products, not just about a single intake, for a single platform, let alone by a single vendor. My less volume argument is exactly what you were agreeing with, they don't need to sell thousands of units BECAUSE their margins on so high, that's the point. Lot more civic owners to sell to than s4 owners.

[Vogz]

I'm speaking generally about aftermarket products, not just about a single intake, for a single platform, let alone by a single vendor. My less volume argument is exactly what you were agreeing with, they don't need to sell thousands of units BECAUSE their margins on so high, that's the point. Lot more civic owners to sell to than s4 owners.


I am too. Good quality Intakes, exhausts, etc. are all made from the same materials regardless of the car. There is a wide disparity of aftermarket part costs between inexpensive and expensive cars, and not all inexpensive cars are sold in large quantities. Civic Si production numbers for 2012 was 500 units. How many 2012 S4s do you think are out there?

The point is the only justification for an intake costing nearly twice as much is that the car it goes on costs twice as much.

[zulujams]

Ynnekdude, nice work, looks great! I'm not that handy and went with the Roc-Euro intake and love it. John answered questions online and via PM and email quickly and I felt that the intake he provided was of high quality. I echo oc cc's comment that John has been an asset to the forums--informative and professional, something we don't always get here. I told John that if a windfall fell in my lap I'd take the 6 hour trek out to check out his shop and get a tune or exhaust (or both).

Back to the point: there are a few options out there. If you're not happy with the cost for what you get, try going your own way and let us know how it goes. Members here will read your progress and results with interest. Other members will support forum sponsors and other vendors and will provide their feedback of products they try out.

[catch]

But there are more aspects:
Quality of materials. What are you using for the "intake tube"? Mild Steel? It'll rust. Aluminum? It'll corrode if you're near the ocean/salted road winters. So now we're at plastic, carbon, or stainless. I just hit up google for pre-fab stainless bends. First up, you're not going to find that its a stock bend angle. But hey, lets run with it. Piece of SS tube with 1 bend- $33. Might need another bend, or more material. Either way, you're looking at more like $50 in tube materials. Plus you'll need to weld it, or add another silicone coupler. Silicone couplers - $6 each. Need one from the throttle body to the tube, and tube to tube since you're not welding. IMHO welding pretty much shuts down the whole DIY aspect. So there's $12 for 2. You'll need 4 clamps for those too, $2 each at the hardware store. $8 total. Shipping on tubes and couplers- $16 and $8. $24. So you're at about $86 and you've got a very poorly fitting tube.

Filter, sure, $50. Quality is a variable, but maybe the cheaper one will work better in this case because it can deform to the poorly fitting tube.

We're now at $136 without a heat shield.

Ahhh but you forgot about the breather port on the back of the intake tube! Maybe you'll drill a hole and epoxy in a stem. $5 for a drill bit that'll make it through the stainless, $8 for epoxy, $3 for the bung. +$16. $152 running total.

Heatshield- maybe you hit up a store with some sheet metal. they give you a piece big enough for $8, not bad. $160. This can be mild steel, but you'll have to coat it. Thermal spray paint, $12. $172.
how are you going to cut this? Maybe you've got tinsnips in the garage. You're gonna fuck your hands up. $4 for bandaids. $176. [:D]

Ok, so you've got that. What about that other breather filter? The little one? Dang. Ok, well, crankcase breather filter will work, right? $10. but it doesnt fit at all. Maybe you chop up the OEM hose and stuff it over. Fine. $186.

So lets install this beast, right? At $186 plus 6 trips the hardware store, you're lookin good.
But a heatshield that is just a flat piece doesn't work. It doesn't stay in place. And it splits more of the air coming in through the hood towards the engine itself now.
So you go back and get more metal, cut a funky piece after spending a couple hours figuring the shape, then slap it in a vice and bend it over to make tabs.. recut into your other heatshield and fake a way to epoxy or bolt them together.
Sure it scratches everything in the bay and clanks at idle, but you're still under $200.
I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

And it's still hoopty looking[:p]

Roc-Euro, ready to rock, $349, 15 minutes to install, best power out of the batch, puts a grin on your face, and keeps your knuckles intact, without looking like a trainwreck under the hood. [up]


naturally this is for fun.

Im not getting involved in the convo, i see both sides of the spectrum....
But $4 for bandaids made me laugh

[Ynnekdude]

Ynnekdude, nice work, looks great! I'm not that handy and went with the Roc-Euro intake and love it. John answered questions online and via PM and email quickly and I felt that the intake he provided was of high quality. I echo oc cc's comment that John has been an asset to the forums--informative and professional, something we don't always get here. I told John that if a windfall fell in my lap I'd take the 6 hour trek out to check out his shop and get a tune or exhaust (or both).

Thank you but CPT (Chicago Performance and Tuning) actually built the system for me. I wish I was as capable as them. System is made of aluminum and then powdercoated black. I will be doing the ABS cover and ducting myself however. Unfortunately don't have the ability to weld or I would be going crazy with my car.

+1 to John as well. He is very helpful.

[well_armed]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Ynnekdude/4-7.jpg

I don't know, I kinda like the limp dick one this guy did more. [facepalm]

http://i25.tinypic.com/2yoakgg.jpg

[S4morris]

I got my Injen brand new for $283 shipped....plus a filter on a stick intake made from Home Depot is hardly the same

[chilort]

I come from a different (cheap) platform where the owners are very critical (cheap) of the offerings provided by vendors. I have been astounded at what you all pay for stuff (wow!!!!). I mean blown totally the eff away (ie. I have friends that work on making parts for cars and have told them about the Audi suckers). I am reminded of back when I worked on an amateur 1/4 mile race team and it was frequently stated that some racers had "more dollars than sense." I'm glad that you all have all this spare change and like supporting the economy. I'll keep driving my stock S4 and modifying my old little turbo car.

[Can_I_Haz?]

You guys Roc!


But there are more aspects:
Quality of materials. What are you using for the "intake tube"? Mild Steel? It'll rust. Aluminum? It'll corrode if you're near the ocean/salted road winters. So now we're at plastic, carbon, or stainless. I just hit up google for pre-fab stainless bends. First up, you're not going to find that its a stock bend angle. But hey, lets run with it. Piece of SS tube with 1 bend- $33. Might need another bend, or more material. Either way, you're looking at more like $50 in tube materials. Plus you'll need to weld it, or add another silicone coupler. Silicone couplers - $6 each. Need one from the throttle body to the tube, and tube to tube since you're not welding. IMHO welding pretty much shuts down the whole DIY aspect. So there's $12 for 2. You'll need 4 clamps for those too, $2 each at the hardware store. $8 total. Shipping on tubes and couplers- $16 and $8. $24. So you're at about $86 and you've got a very poorly fitting tube.

Filter, sure, $50. Quality is a variable, but maybe the cheaper one will work better in this case because it can deform to the poorly fitting tube.

We're now at $136 without a heat shield.

Ahhh but you forgot about the breather port on the back of the intake tube! Maybe you'll drill a hole and epoxy in a stem. $5 for a drill bit that'll make it through the stainless, $8 for epoxy, $3 for the bung. +$16. $152 running total.

Heatshield- maybe you hit up a store with some sheet metal. they give you a piece big enough for $8, not bad. $160. This can be mild steel, but you'll have to coat it. Thermal spray paint, $12. $172.
how are you going to cut this? Maybe you've got tinsnips in the garage. You're gonna fuck your hands up. $4 for bandaids. $176. [:D]

Ok, so you've got that. What about that other breather filter? The little one? Dang. Ok, well, crankcase breather filter will work, right? $10. but it doesnt fit at all. Maybe you chop up the OEM hose and stuff it over. Fine. $186.

So lets install this beast, right? At $186 plus 6 trips the hardware store, you're lookin good.
But a heatshield that is just a flat piece doesn't work. It doesn't stay in place. And it splits more of the air coming in through the hood towards the engine itself now.
So you go back and get more metal, cut a funky piece after spending a couple hours figuring the shape, then slap it in a vice and bend it over to make tabs.. recut into your other heatshield and fake a way to epoxy or bolt them together.
Sure it scratches everything in the bay and clanks at idle, but you're still under $200.
I mean, except you've killed a whole saturday working on this too.
Your significant other is pissed, +$120 to take them out to a nice dinner to make up for it. $320.

And it's still hoopty looking[:p]

Roc-Euro, ready to rock, $349, 15 minutes to install, best power out of the batch, puts a grin on your face, and keeps your knuckles intact, without looking like a trainwreck under the hood. [up]


naturally this is for fun.

[itzjonjon69]

Where!?

I got my Injen brand new for $283 shipped....plus a filter on a stick intake made from Home Depot is hardly the same

[S4morris]

Where!?

eBay, forget the sellers name but it was very nicely priced and arrived 2 days after I ordered it. I can look it up if you can't locate it on there.

Edit: goodygarage was the sellers name.

[Toecutter]

I come from a different (cheap) platform where the owners are very critical (cheap) of the offerings provided by vendors. I have been astounded at what you all pay for stuff (wow!!!!). I mean blown totally the eff away (ie. I have friends that work on making parts for cars and have told them about the Audi suckers). I am reminded of back when I worked on an amateur 1/4 mile race team and it was frequently stated that some racers had "more dollars than sense." I'm glad that you all have all this spare change and like supporting the economy. I'll keep driving my stock S4 and modifying my old little turbo car.

People with disposable income are suckers? On the contrary, I think somewhere along the way we did something right.

[CreoSTi]

People with disposable income are suckers? On the contrary, I think somewhere along the way we did something right.

+1

[jamesj2k]

+1

+10

Its not necessarily that we WANT to spend more but we have no choice. Any manufacturer knows -> more expensive car = more expensive parts.... I would have no problems buying a intake for $100.

[ENV²]

If you want a car with cheaper mods for more power go American. You can make a Mustang/Vette/CTS-V pretty awesome for pennies compared to M3s and S4s. Jap cars like Subies and Evos are pretty cheap to make fast as well. To be honest I almost went with the 335iS (N54) because of its cheap tuneability factor.

Its all in what you really want.