Mods and insurance

[s47788]

I currently have a 2012 S4 DSG, and am considering the APR 2+ or Stasis ecu mod. It's a leased car so I am more leaning towards the stasis ecu for the warranty, given the TD1 situation. My next concern is with my insurance company, which is Geico. I'm pretty sure they will cancel my policy if I even mention a mod. Last month when I went to the body shop for a minor fender bender, and the claims adjuster pulled me aside and said he will not report it, but my radar detector in the window would have gotten my policy canceled and the claim denied.

So my question is, are there any insurance companies out there that allow basic mods like ECU and exhaust? I would like to have them listed on my policy as a rider, not so much to have them reimbursed in an accident, but more so they can't use it to deny a potentially huge claim.

I know a lot of you just don't say anything to the insurance company, and most of the time they don't care. But I feel like in the case of a serious crash costing them $100k+, they would do some poking around and look for excuses not to pay.

Am I being too paranoid?

PS. Apologies if this has been addressed. My searches didn't turn up any good info.

[Dr GP]

Why would you let your insurance company know that you modded your car? I don't think it is prudent or necessary to list any mods as a rider. As far as the Stasis tune is concerned, you may want top wait. The original Stasis tune was not strong. Stasis has recently bought REVO which has a strong tune. Rumor has it that Stasis will be replacing their original tune with the Revo.

[s47788]

My reason to let them know would be they could deny my claim for misrepresenting the vehicle. On Geico's vehicle information page they asked flat out, is the vehicle modified. So I could lie and say no. Then when it goes to the claims adjuster after a crash, they open the hood and see the APR pulley and deny the claim. No? Remember these are people who will deny a claim for a radar detector.

If stasis upgrades the tune that would be great, because I do want the warranty.

[P_RsS4]

I doubt that a claims adjuster would be able to identify the APR pulley.

[s47788]

Very true. I'm sure for minor body shop work I would slip right by. I'm more concerned for the more serious crashes where they scrutinize a bit more. Or say there is a mechanical issue as a result and Audi tells Geico they wont fix it because it's TD1 flagged. Just playing devils advocate here.

I'm more wondering if an insurance company out there is totally cool with mods?

[DATZ]

On Geico's vehicle information page they asked flat out, is the vehicle modified. So I could lie and say no.

So answer their question before you start modding, when you can honestly answer "no." You're under no obligation to keep them updated on your cars mods or lack thereof after that. This is a silly concern anyway, no insurance company would look to see if your ecu was flashed (even if they could), and if they did and tried to deny a claim based on that, there is zero percent chance of that holding up in court.

[helix139]

Or say there is a mechanical issue as a result and Audi tells Geico they wont fix it because it's TD1 flagged. Just playing devils advocate here.

I'm wondering when this would come in. In a situation where you would use insurance, warranty wouldn't be an issue anyways. TD1 or not, a dealership will fix an issue if they are paid for it, and an insurer wouldn't expect a manufacturer or dealership to pay for something that was the result of an accident.

[misc720]

There are insurance companies who will cover mods. If Geico won't, and it's important to you, then shop around and take your business elsewhere.

[FatalBert]

Why would mods make you uninsurable? If anything I would think it would raise your rates and that's about it. They pay for what goes on the car when its getting fixed. Of course they will not pay for you to pick a Milltek exhaust instead of an OEM Audi.
However I think there is also an option to get a check from them based on an estimate and get it fixed yourself with whatever you want.

Why would they care that you had anything aftermarket on the car? That's not what they are covering.

As for a radar detector causing your insurance company to not cover you? I think that's a load of $*^&

[helix139]

As for a radar detector causing your insurance company to not cover you? I think that's a load of $*^&

Most insurance companies explicitly do not cover radar detectors if they are stolen or damaged, and more than just Geico have a policy of not covering you if you are using a detector. Geico tends to be real sticklers about it though, and in fact they actually subsidize radar and lidar guns for police departments in an effort to get more tickets written so that they can raise premiums. One reason why I'll never use Geico.

[skiracerblah]

I'd say the OEM parts will cost as much or close to the price of aftermarket. So, if your exhaust is damaged in an accident, they'll just reimburse you for the cost of an OEM exhaust. No idea how much a OEM exhaust cost, but i'm sure its not cheap.

[s47788]

There are insurance companies who will cover mods. If Geico won't, and it's important to you, then shop around and take your business elsewhere.

Anyone here have experience with a company who does cover mods?

[s47788]

Why would mods make you uninsurable? If anything I would think it would raise your rates and that's about it. They pay for what goes on the car when its getting fixed. Of course they will not pay for you to pick a Milltek exhaust instead of an OEM Audi.
However I think there is also an option to get a check from them based on an estimate and get it fixed yourself with whatever you want.

Why would they care that you had anything aftermarket on the car? That's not what they are covering.

As for a radar detector causing your insurance company to not cover you? I think that's a load of $*^&

It makes you potentially uninsurable because you are adding substantial power to the car that wasnt designed by the manufacturer with that power in mind. Kind of a legimate concern if you are an insurer.

Now you and I both know that the car is still just as safe, but that argument I could see holding up in court (that the mods made it unsafe).


So answer their question before you start modding, when you can honestly answer "no." You're under no obligation to keep them updated on your cars mods or lack thereof after that. This is a silly concern anyway, no insurance company would look to see if your ecu was flashed (even if they could), and if they did and tried to deny a claim based on that, there is zero percent chance of that holding up in court.

I get asked this question every 6 months when I renew, so at some point I would be forced to lie out right.

[FatalBert]

Most insurance companies explicitly do not cover radar detectors if they are stolen or damaged, and more than just Geico have a policy of not covering you if you are using a detector. Geico tends to be real sticklers about it though, and in fact they actually subsidize radar and lidar guns for police departments in an effort to get more tickets written so that they can raise premiums. One reason why I'll never use Geico.

Not covering a radar detector is understandable. Cancelling your policy because you have a radar detector? Sounds like bs if I ever smelt it...


It makes you potentially uninsurable because you are adding substantial power to the car that wasnt designed by the manufacturer with that power in mind. Kind of a legimate concern if you are an insurer.

Now you and I both know that the car is still just as safe, but that argument I could see holding up in court (that the mods made it unsafe).



I get asked this question every 6 months when I renew, so at some point I would be forced to lie out right.



Change your insurance company, I have never heard of such things. Unless you have some outstandingly ridiculous insurance record causing them to hound you.

Insurance is required to drive, if every insurance company will drop your coverage because of mods then modifying a car would essentially be illegal.

And they even ask you if your car is modified come renewal time? What is this?!?!

Sounds strange to me. If I were you I would ask around for quotes from other insurers and switch immediately.

[s47788]

My record is very good. No tickets or at fault accidents (car was only hit while parked in the past).

Everytime you renew the standard form asks "has anything changed on your vehicle?"

What's strange is they never once asked me about radar detectors, and I've read through my policy extensively and can't find any mention of it. If any NJ geico customers can locate any language on it, please let me know.

Other than being dicks about having any fun, I can say Geico has been fantastic to deal with. Fixed my car like new with genuine parts in 3 days, perfect paint match. Rates never go up.

[riegeraudi]

There are insurance for modded cars but it is very expensive. I inquired about it before and then almost got bowled over when I got the quote. When you mod it is the same line, you have to pay to play. In most cases the insurance companies will just pay out. The only time they will deny your claim is in huge cases. It then becomes viable to do an exhaustive case and lawyers to defend denied claim. They know in huge cases where someone is permanently hurt or killed the payout is going to be huge and you will definitely hire a lawyer if your claim was denied so they only deny claims in the huge cases. Most of the small claims they will just pay out and then not offer you insurance for your car anymore. Heard it many times as a friend of mine is in the insurance industry and another is a lawyer.

[FatalBert]

There are insurance for modded cars but it is very expensive. I inquired about it before and then almost got bowled over when I got the quote. When you mod it is the same line, you have to pay to play. In most cases the insurance companies will just pay out. The only time they will deny your claim is in huge cases. It then becomes viable to do an exhaustive case and lawyers to defend denied claim. They know in huge cases where someone is permanently hurt or killed the payout is going to be huge and you will definitely hire a lawyer if your claim was denied so they only deny claims in the huge cases. Most of the small claims they will just pay out and then not offer you insurance for your car anymore. Heard it many times as a friend of mine is in the insurance industry and another is a lawyer.

I still don't get what the concern is. Unless you want your modified parts to be the replacement when the car is fixed I don't see the point in getting "modded" car insurance. Without it insurance will just replace it with OEM parts, regardless of what you had on the vehicle when the accident occurred. I mean what are they going to say? "We cant pay to have your car fixed because your intake caused the other guy to rear end you."?

And again I still think you can opt to receive a check based on an estimate from one of the insurers repair shops and replace it with the parts you want at the difference in cost. I guess that is where paying to play comes in effect, but it still should not be a huge concern.



Is there is something I am missing here?...

[Ynnekdude]

I currently have a 2012 S4 DSG, and am considering the APR 2+ or Stasis ecu mod. It's a leased car so I am more leaning towards the stasis ecu for the warranty, given the TD1 situation. My next concern is with my insurance company, which is Geico. I'm pretty sure they will cancel my policy if I even mention a mod. Last month when I went to the body shop for a minor fender bender, and the claims adjuster pulled me aside and said he will not report it, but my radar detector in the window would have gotten my policy canceled and the claim denied.

So my question is, are there any insurance companies out there that allow basic mods like ECU and exhaust? I would like to have them listed on my policy as a rider, not so much to have them reimbursed in an accident, but more so they can't use it to deny a potentially huge claim.

I know a lot of you just don't say anything to the insurance company, and most of the time they don't care. But I feel like in the case of a serious crash costing them $100k+, they would do some poking around and look for excuses not to pay.

Am I being too paranoid?

PS. Apologies if this has been addressed. My searches didn't turn up any good info.

He's full of shit.

[s47788]

I still don't get what the concern is. Unless you want your modified parts to be the replacement when the car is fixed I don't see the point in getting "modded" car insurance. Without it insurance will just replace it with OEM parts, regardless of what you had on the vehicle when the accident occurred. I mean what are they going to say? "We cant pay to have your car fixed because your intake caused the other guy to rear end you."?

And again I still think you can opt to receive a check based on an estimate from one of the insurers repair shops and replace it with the parts you want at the difference in cost. I guess that is where paying to play comes in effect, but it still should not be a huge concern.



Is there is something I am missing here?...


The concern here is that I'm on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars in a serious accident. They don't have to prove the intake causes the accident, they just have to prove the car is modified and you didn't check the "yes my car is modified" box on their renewal form. Insurance companies love any way to get out of paying a huge claim. It's called material misrepresentation.

I'm all for the pay to play, but there is a limit to what I'm willing to be exposed to.

[FatalBert]

The concern here is that I'm on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars in a serious accident. They don't have to prove the intake causes the accident, they just have to prove the car is modified and you didn't check the "yes my car is modified" box on their renewal form. Insurance companies love any way to get out of paying a huge claim. It's called material misrepresentation.

I'm all for the pay to play, but there is a limit to what I'm willing to be exposed to.

That's why you had all modifications done after signing the document...

[s47788]

That's why you had all modifications done after signing the document...

Like I said, I sign that document every 6 months, so at some point it does become a misrepresentation.

[FatalBert]

Like I said, I sign that document every 6 months, so at some point it does become a misrepresentation.

Like I said, the modifications were done after your last renewal...

[s47788]

Like I said, the modifications were done after your last renewal...

OK, I get it. That argument might lead to a costly legal battle though, and I'm not sure I want to go down that road. You may have responsibility to notify them of modifications as you get them as well, similar to notifying them if your address changes. 9 times out of 10, none of this would even been an issue. I'm just worried about the rare cases.

So thats why I was hoping there was an insurer out there I could just be completely honest with, and not have to throw my radar detector out the window every time I get in an accident :)

[jdwk]

When my MX6 was totalled, Progressive offered me whatever the KBB was at the time. I then wrote an appeal including all receipts for mods on the car, and they ended up giving me a much higher amount than KBB.

I would do the same for any of my cars. And if I went and did something major, like putting a blower on my C6, I would probably notify Progressive ahead of time so that there is no debate if the car was ever destroyed.

[mikejsully]

I currently have a 2012 S4 DSG, and am considering the APR 2+ or Stasis ecu mod. It's a leased car so I am more leaning towards the stasis ecu for the warranty, given the TD1 situation. My next concern is with my insurance company, which is Geico. I'm pretty sure they will cancel my policy if I even mention a mod. Last month when I went to the body shop for a minor fender bender, and the claims adjuster pulled me aside and said he will not report it, but my radar detector in the window would have gotten my policy canceled and the claim denied.

So my question is, are there any insurance companies out there that allow basic mods like ECU and exhaust? I would like to have them listed on my policy as a rider, not so much to have them reimbursed in an accident, but more so they can't use it to deny a potentially huge claim.

I know a lot of you just don't say anything to the insurance company, and most of the time they don't care. But I feel like in the case of a serious crash costing them $100k+, they would do some poking around and look for excuses not to pay.

Am I being too paranoid?

PS. Apologies if this has been addressed. My searches didn't turn up any good info.

I am an insurance consultant/risk manager for an insurance MGA/PA - We trade in personal lines (home/auto) all day long. I have never seen a liability claim denied for a vehicle that was modded. The spirit of that wording is to give the company an out if you have modified the vehicle in a way that would make it a danger on the road. Think Chop top/ little slit windows, supercharger poking through the hood and causing a visibility issue, air bags, etc. Major mods that effect the ability of the car to drive safely in normal operating conditions. new wheels, exhaust and pulley do not change the nature of your car so dramatically that they will pin your fender bender on the existence of the mods or call it a safety issue.

Now if you want to get paid under comprehensive or collision for your mods then you are SOL with pretty much any insurance carrier unless you specifically name the mods and they agree to insure them to value. You will be hard pressed to find this coverage with mainline carriers such as Geico, Allstate, Travelers, Liberty, Safeco.... etc. If you are hit by another party you can and should be reimbursed for the full value of ANY and ALL additions you have on the car. The idea of insurance is to get you back to where you were before the accident took place (if you were the one hit, not the one hitting)

I would not worry about the mods planned.. i have much more done to my car. Just make sure you have plenty of liability coverage. You always want to carry enough liability insurance to cover your entire net worth. if you carry less you are open to major personal loss if you have a big liability claim.
Example... net worth = 1.5mm you want to carry at least 2mm in total liability coverage. Insurance is cheap, especially if you have ever turned in a claim....

Mike

[mikejsully]

P.S. - It is cheaper to pay you and/or your claim than fight about 50whp. The insurance company looses money the longer a claim is open. They want quick painless resolve as much as you do.

If you cause an accident and want reimbursement... good luck... But if someone hits you then it is a non issue. Don't confuse Liability (what you carry to cover at fault accidents) with comp and collision (covers the damage to your vehicle) Unless you go to a specialty carrier and list your car as a collector/show car you will be very hard pressed to get the coverage you are worried about.

Mike

[Black Leaf]

What is this about Geico not covering cars that have a radar detector?

I have Geico, and I pulled a copy of my policy from online. The only place "radar" appears in the policy is in section 9 of the exclusions, which provides that Geico will not cover "Loss to equipment designed or used for the detection
or location of radar or laser."

That means Geico will not cover the loss of the radar detector itself, which is not the same thing as saying they won't cover damages to the car itself if the car is found with a radar detector.

[s47788]

I am an insurance consultant/risk manager for an insurance MGA/PA - We trade in personal lines (home/auto) all day long. I have never seen a liability claim denied for a vehicle that was modded. The spirit of that wording is to give the company an out if you have modified the vehicle in a way that would make it a danger on the road. Think Chop top/ little slit windows, supercharger poking through the hood and causing a visibility issue, air bags, etc. Major mods that effect the ability of the car to drive safely in normal operating conditions. new wheels, exhaust and pulley do not change the nature of your car so dramatically that they will pin your fender bender on the existence of the mods or call it a safety issue.

Now if you want to get paid under comprehensive or collision for your mods then you are SOL with pretty much any insurance carrier unless you specifically name the mods and they agree to insure them to value. You will be hard pressed to find this coverage with mainline carriers such as Geico, Allstate, Travelers, Liberty, Safeco.... etc. If you are hit by another party you can and should be reimbursed for the full value of ANY and ALL additions you have on the car. The idea of insurance is to get you back to where you were before the accident took place (if you were the one hit, not the one hitting)

I would not worry about the mods planned.. i have much more done to my car. Just make sure you have plenty of liability coverage. You always want to carry enough liability insurance to cover your entire net worth. if you carry less you are open to major personal loss if you have a big liability claim.
Example... net worth = 1.5mm you want to carry at least 2mm in total liability coverage. Insurance is cheap, especially if you have ever turned in a claim....

Mike

Thanks, I appreciate hearing from someone actually in the insurance business. I'm not concerned about getting the mods replaced in an accident, I totally accept that risk. Was just worried about the rare case, where I hit someone, get sued for hundreds of thousnads of dollars, and the insurance company sees an exhaust on my car and since I didnt check their little mod box when I renewed, they deny the claim in full. That's really the only situation that worries me.

Glad to hear that is unlikely.

[s47788]

What is this about Geico not covering cars that have a radar detector?

I have Geico, and I pulled a copy of my policy from online. The only place "radar" appears in the policy is in section 9 of the exclusions, which provides that Geico will not cover "Loss to equipment designed or used for the detection
or location of radar or laser."

That means Geico will not cover the loss of the radar detector itself, which is not the same thing as saying they won't cover damages to the car itself if the car is found with a radar detector.

Yeah, that's all I found too. They also never asked me anywhere if I have one. So I didn't lie about anything. I could see them not renewing your policy based on discovering this. They can drop you for any reason they like.

[s47788]

P.S. - It is cheaper to pay you and/or your claim than fight about 50whp. The insurance company looses money the longer a claim is open. They want quick painless resolve as much as you do.

If you cause an accident and want reimbursement... good luck... But if someone hits you then it is a non issue. Don't confuse Liability (what you carry to cover at fault accidents) with comp and collision (covers the damage to your vehicle) Unless you go to a specialty carrier and list your car as a collector/show car you will be very hard pressed to get the coverage you are worried about.

Mike

Not always, If I were Geico and could get out of paying $100k+ by arguing that 50whp caused the accident, I would.

I understand the distinction of liability and collision. Being on the hook for either one in a major accident would not be good though. Paying for the collision claim on a $60k totaled car would not be OK.

[Dguth]

I'm a senior leader for one of the largest insurance carriers in the country and I can tell you that no one should be denying your claim because of modifications. The only thing you really have to worry about is whether your upgrades might be covered in the event of a loss. This is governed by the contract and their are usually inside limit caps to modifications. Sometimes with certain policies you can buy up on these limits if it's available. Most companies keep the inside limits on modifications very small like $1,500 to $2,000. More than likely this wouldn't be enough to cover the cost to replace all that you have.

If you feel your current insurance carrier might do this then I would switch.

[BlueByU]

Geico is the worst insurance company there is. Hands down! I'm in the biz, and there are the worst, trust me.

[s47788]

I'm a senior leader for one of the largest insurance carriers in the country and I can tell you that no one should be denying your claim because of modifications. The only thing you really have to worry about is whether your upgrades might be covered in the event of a loss. This is governed by the contract and their are usually inside limit caps to modifications. Sometimes with certain policies you can buy up on these limits if it's available. Most companies keep the inside limits on modifications very small like $1,500 to $2,000. More than likely this wouldn't be enough to cover the cost to replace all that you have.

If you feel your current insurance carrier might do this then I would switch.

Thanks. Can you recommend a carrier to switch to?

[Dguth]

Thanks. Can you recommend a carrier to switch to?

I would recommend going with a company represented by a local agent versus a call center rep. This way you can discuss any concerns you might have, develop a local relationship, and the agent can also help guide you through the claims process if in the event of a loss. My preference is Allstate and its also the company I work for but there are other major local represented carriers like State Farm, Nationwide, Travellers, etc.

[BigFred]

Being insured with Geico is a big mistake. Find an independent agent and let him help you. Companies like Travelers ans Allied aren't going to quiz you every 6 months. The agent may be able to find a company that will cover a modded car, but the price will be very high. At the very least, you'll be in a better position come claim time with an agent to help you. Developing a relationship with the agent will also help you.

[QSonx]

Geico knows I'm modded and they covered everything for me. When I rear ended they were even going to replace my APR exhaust tips (The at fault insurance company ended up taking care of it).

A few weeks ago I dodged hitting an animal getting on the highway and they had to replace my bumper, fender, and one wheel (Scratched my new VMRs). They had no issues with it. They even gave me the money to redo the clear bra and the scratched tint on the on the driver's headlight.

[Can_I_Haz?]

I totaled a heavily modified (20k plus in mods) 2003 cobra and an evo ix with about 6k in mods with progressive. They were total losses. I got paid on both cars but they do not cover mods. I ended up removing the parts that weren't damaged and selling them to recoup costs as long as I had stock parts to replace them (you don't have to install them, just toss them in the car).

In both my cases my insurance paid me via uninsured motorist. The first accident was a stupid idiot driver, yours truly, driving above his means. The second time I was hit by a stoned and/or very drunk illegal in a mariachi outfit at 70 plus mph while I was at a dead stop (i'm not making this up, they arrested him) So I am speaking from experience.

There is stated value insurance out there. You basically can get a policy to cover your car at an agreed upon value but the car usually has to be appraised by someone appointed by the policy maker. These insurance policies are typically designed for work vehicles that are modified with special equipment like adding refrigeration to a cargo van so you can ship food but I have seen many classic cars and I heard a few heavily modded cars out there are covered under them. The policy will be written based on identified and documented mods by an appraiser. Its a headache and not really worth it unless you invest a serious amount of money in your ride.

One last thing. If its the other drivers fault, all you need is receipts.

[s47788]

Geico knows I'm modded and they covered everything for me. When I rear ended they were even going to replace my APR exhaust tips (The at fault insurance company ended up taking care of it).

A few weeks ago I dodged hitting an animal getting on the highway and they had to replace my bumper, fender, and one wheel (Scratched my new VMRs). They had no issues with it. They even gave me the money to redo the clear bra and the scratched tint on the on the driver's headlight.

You called them and told them, or they just noticed when you got it repaired? They know about the ECU?

[s47788]

Geico is the worst insurance company there is. Hands down! I'm in the biz, and there are the worst, trust me.

How so? Their rates and customer service have been great. It's just the modding issue so far in my experience.

[FatalBert]

How so? Their rates and customer service have been great. It's just the modding issue so far in my experience.

You can always get better rates. Call around, many of them will most likely beat your current rate.

[llBen]

Interesting thread, hope you guys don't mind me chiming in.

An insurance company takes all of the details about you and your vehicle when you take out a policy - and you pay a premium based on this information. They tell you up front that if you lie about this information they can refuse to pay part or all of a claim, or even cancel your policy (wording varies, and the extent to which they enforce it depends on the incident). They also make it clear that you are responsible for ANY changes in the information that would affect your policy. That means if there are changes to the information on the basis of which your policy was awarded, you need to declare it.

This is put in place for a pretty decent reason... prevents people getting cheap insurance on a little 100Hp/150Nm car, then throwing in a jet engine producing 1000Hp/1250Nm. Or even things like people losing a limb or developing sight problems. Your policy and its premium are tailored to your statistical risk (plus whatever else they can con you out of), so they won't honour the policy if that risk changes.

It is also considered fraud - in the UK the information is passed on to other agencies which will not only make future insurance expensive but it can also affect your credit rating (you are branded a liar, and can't be trusted when you take out policies, credit, etc). Again, this depends how severe the incident is as well as the extent of the misinformation they have.

Whether you agree with it in principle or not, they make all these terms and conditions available to at the start... Problem is most people don't read it all (and they count on that, leaving room to screw people over the most minor mistakes!)

I don't know how different it is in the US, but I'd bet that the black and white is nearly identical, and that there is just a lot of lenience given due to the popularity of modifications.

Reality is... I've contacted my insurer and said that I've fitted spacers "to make the brakes easier to check on", fitted sway bars "to make the car feel more stable on bad country roads", and even told them I wanted to have a specialist modify the engine software "to improve my fuel economy". If you're worried about it, call them under the proviso that you'd like to know how getting X done might affect your premium (being creative with your justification). This way if you do go ahead at least you know the potential consequences!

I sleep easy knowing that I'm totally covered, so when life throws crap at me I can fight my corner with irrefutable evidence. The black and white is often a pain in the ass, but can be used to your advantage.

[s47788]

Interesting thread, hope you guys don't mind me chiming in.

An insurance company takes all of the details about you and your vehicle when you take out a policy - and you pay a premium based on this information. They tell you up front that if you lie about this information they can refuse to pay part or all of a claim, or even cancel your policy (wording varies, and the extent to which they enforce it depends on the incident). They also make it clear that you are responsible for ANY changes in the information that would affect your policy. That means if there are changes to the information on the basis of which your policy was awarded, you need to declare it.

This is put in place for a pretty decent reason... prevents people getting cheap insurance on a little 100Hp/150Nm car, then throwing in a jet engine producing 1000Hp/1250Nm. Or even things like people losing a limb or developing sight problems. Your policy and its premium are tailored to your statistical risk (plus whatever else they can con you out of), so they won't honour the policy if that risk changes.

It is also considered fraud - in the UK the information is passed on to other agencies which will not only make future insurance expensive but it can also affect your credit rating (you are branded a liar, and can't be trusted when you take out policies, credit, etc). Again, this depends how severe the incident is as well as the extent of the misinformation they have.

Whether you agree with it in principle or not, they make all these terms and conditions available to at the start... Problem is most people don't read it all (and they count on that, leaving room to screw people over the most minor mistakes!)

I don't know how different it is in the US, but I'd bet that the black and white is nearly identical, and that there is just a lot of lenience given due to the popularity of modifications.

Reality is... I've contacted my insurer and said that I've fitted spacers "to make the brakes easier to check on", fitted sway bars "to make the car feel more stable on bad country roads", and even told them I wanted to have a specialist modify the engine software "to improve my fuel economy". If you're worried about it, call them under the proviso that you'd like to know how getting X done might affect your premium (being creative with your justification). This way if you do go ahead at least you know the potential consequences!

I sleep easy knowing that I'm totally covered, so when life throws crap at me I can fight my corner with irrefutable evidence. The black and white is often a pain in the ass, but can be used to your advantage.

Thanks for chiming in. This was exactly my point, and I think anyone that denies this is just engaging in wishful thinking. I'm sure they make exceptions on a case by case basis, but in general not disclosing key information about your car is grounds for cancellation and/or claim denial.

I'd have trouble telling my insurance agent my tune was to improve fuel economy with a straight face, but maybe I'll go that route. I don't like having anything to hide or playing games. Just want to be upfront with them and make sure I'm totally covered. The "should be ok" mentality is just more risk than I'm willing to take on a leased car.

Thanks for your input.

[ayz]

I don't k ow about engine and tuning mods but state farm covered the xpel film on my car in addition to repair

[mikejsully]

Interesting thread, hope you guys don't mind me chiming in.

An insurance company takes all of the details about you and your vehicle when you take out a policy - and you pay a premium based on this information. They tell you up front that if you lie about this information they can refuse to pay part or all of a claim, or even cancel your policy (wording varies, and the extent to which they enforce it depends on the incident). They also make it clear that you are responsible for ANY changes in the information that would affect your policy. That means if there are changes to the information on the basis of which your policy was awarded, you need to declare it.

This is put in place for a pretty decent reason... prevents people getting cheap insurance on a little 100Hp/150Nm car, then throwing in a jet engine producing 1000Hp/1250Nm. Or even things like people losing a limb or developing sight problems. Your policy and its premium are tailored to your statistical risk (plus whatever else they can con you out of), so they won't honour the policy if that risk changes.

It is also considered fraud - in the UK the information is passed on to other agencies which will not only make future insurance expensive but it can also affect your credit rating (you are branded a liar, and can't be trusted when you take out policies, credit, etc). Again, this depends how severe the incident is as well as the extent of the misinformation they have.

Whether you agree with it in principle or not, they make all these terms and conditions available to at the start... Problem is most people don't read it all (and they count on that, leaving room to screw people over the most minor mistakes!)

I don't know how different it is in the US, but I'd bet that the black and white is nearly identical, and that there is just a lot of lenience given due to the popularity of modifications.

Reality is... I've contacted my insurer and said that I've fitted spacers "to make the brakes easier to check on", fitted sway bars "to make the car feel more stable on bad country roads", and even told them I wanted to have a specialist modify the engine software "to improve my fuel economy". If you're worried about it, call them under the proviso that you'd like to know how getting X done might affect your premium (being creative with your justification). This way if you do go ahead at least you know the potential consequences!

I sleep easy knowing that I'm totally covered, so when life throws crap at me I can fight my corner with irrefutable evidence. The black and white is often a pain in the ass, but can be used to your advantage.


All great points and yes, for peace of mind you did the right thing. However this will not stop them from denying the claim in the USA. Being less familiar with UK insurance laws and policy language i would agree that Europe in general is more stringent with vehicle modifications/alterations. I believe that there are rating bands for engine displacement as well in the UK/Europe. In the good old U.S.A. it all really depends on the carrier and their individual policy language. We are not as regulated as The rest of the world. MOST, but not ALL policies read similarly as they are based on ISO forms standardization... as long as the driveablilty is not effected or safety features are not bi-passed or disengaged they will not deny a claim. In most circumstances the local department of insurance will not allow a carrier to deny a claim based on minor mods if the vehicle is still operating properly and without obstructions put in place aftermarket.

Like I stated before, if the driveablilty and major systems are not impaired a liability claim will not be denied. Now lets's say you put the car on airbags, added some Lamborghini style doors, and limo tinted the front window. You have an airbag fail because you installed the part poorly or did not maintain the part. This causes you to swerve and hit another vehicle, which you could not see because of the limo tint. (extreme situation, I know) The adjuster will look at your car and say... Hmmm this may have been avoidable if the duffer had not turned his Hyundai into a wanna be Italian job. They will happily pay the claim, then come back and sue you for negligence and violation of the policy language. All of those mods cause the vehicle to perform or function outside of how it was originally intended and engineered. Now add in that your passenger could not exit the vehicle as the door malfunctioned....

Hit someone with only Tune, springs, exhaust and some flashy wheels.... The adjuster will not question your vehicles ability to perform as all major systems are in tact and functioning properly. As long as the installation of all parts was done properly you are not going to be denied the claim... If the parts fail, you still have the fall back of suing the shop and or manufacturer of your mods for faulty product or installation.

The driver is also a big part of the equation. Was the driver negligent? Were you street racing? Drunk? etc... this is where you will find most of your denied claims. If you are driving illegally, you are violating your policy... 100%

Cheers and Happy motoring... If you want to get your policy re-underwritten at every renewal... tell the carrier you modify your vehicle. Go read your policy, boring as hell, but enlightening. I am sure most if not all have violated the policy in one way or another almost every day.

If you live in fear of a claim you should never leave the garage!!!!


Michael J. Sullivan, CIC

I am an insurance consultant and run programs for insurance companies, both personal lines (home, auto) and commercial lines.

Happy to help anywhere i can for fellow forum members, just shoot me a PM.


****** Disclaimer****** This is a general statement and cannot contemplate all possible scenarios. In the world of insurance nothing is ever set in stone. Your attitude and demeanor with your carrier representative can and most likely will effect the outcome of your claim. I hope that no one ever has to experience a loss or injury, but if you do, keep a level head. In the end it is just spilled milk, albeit very expensive spilled milk.

[FatalBert]

All great points and yes, for peace of mind you did the right thing. However this will not stop them from denying the claim in the USA. Being less familiar with UK insurance laws and policy language i would agree that Europe in general is more stringent with vehicle modifications/alterations. I believe that there are rating bands for engine displacement as well in the UK/Europe. In the good old U.S.A. it all really depends on the carrier and their individual policy language. We are not as regulated as The rest of the world. MOST, but not ALL policies read similarly as they are based on ISO forms standardization... as long as the driveablilty is not effected or safety features are not bi-passed or disengaged they will not deny a claim. In most circumstances the local department of insurance will not allow a carrier to deny a claim based on minor mods if the vehicle is still operating properly and without obstructions put in place aftermarket.

Like I stated before, if the driveablilty and major systems are not impaired a liability claim will not be denied. Now lets's say you put the car on airbags, added some Lamborghini style doors, and limo tinted the front window. You have an airbag fail because you installed the part poorly or did not maintain the part. This causes you to swerve and hit another vehicle, which you could not see because of the limo tint. (extreme situation, I know) The adjuster will look at your car and say... Hmmm this may have been avoidable if the duffer had not turned his Hyundai into a wanna be Italian job. They will happily pay the claim, then come back and sue you for negligence and violation of the policy language. All of those mods cause the vehicle to perform or function outside of how it was originally intended and engineered. Now add in that your passenger could not exit the vehicle as the door malfunctioned....

Hit someone with only Tune, springs, exhaust and some flashy wheels.... The adjuster will not question your vehicles ability to perform as all major systems are in tact and functioning properly. As long as the installation of all parts was done properly you are not going to be denied the claim... If the parts fail, you still have the fall back of suing the shop and or manufacturer of your mods for faulty product or installation.

The driver is also a big part of the equation. Was the driver negligent? Were you street racing? Drunk? etc... this is where you will find most of your denied claims. If you are driving illegally, you are violating your policy... 100%

Cheers and Happy motoring... If you want to get your policy re-underwritten at every renewal... tell the carrier you modify your vehicle. Go read your policy, boring as hell, but enlightening. I am sure most if not all have violated the policy in one way or another almost every day.

If you live in fear of a claim you should never leave the garage!!!!


Michael J. Sullivan, CIC

I do insurance consulting and run programs for insurance companies, both the personal lines (home, auto) and commercial lines.

Happy to help anywhere i can for fellow forum members, just shoot me a PM.

^^^ THAT^^^ +1039284

[az]