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CamrideA4
05-03-2012, 04:33 AM
I've had my FT for a little over a year (installed 2/2011). Since I've owned it I've had issues keeping the bolts tightened from the exhaust manifold to the turbo. At first it wasn't too bad, noticing a leak after a couple months and tightened everything up. After a while it turned into having to tighten them every couple of weeks. I know the result is totally my fault, as I should not have just kept tightening them instead of replacing them, but life has a way of getting in the way (new job, baby due in a couple months, blahblah, etc). Well yesterday I went to tight one of them down and it broke, yay. This morning I started taking things apart and one other bolt is stripped. I haven't gotten the exhaust manifold off yet so I don't know what shape the third bolt is in.

I just wanted to find out if anyone else has had this issue? I'm not sure if it kept loosening up because of sub-par bolts or because maybe there is more stress on the turbo since I have an aftermarket DP with no connection holding it up at the trans? Either way I'm hoping I don't have to drill the turbo out, hopefully I can just chase the threads and get the broken piece out and be good. I'll be picking up new bolts and nord locks this time around.

If you do have a FT and these bolts keep loosening up on you (I've seen at least one person post about it here IIRC) don't wait, get them swapped out. It'll be a PITA since you have to remove the manifold (which is Satan's creation, sorry Doug) but you don't want to end up breaking bolts in your turbo.

xdewaynex
05-03-2012, 05:19 AM
When I was pulling my motor out a couple months ago, I noticed that my bolts had loosened up on me as well. I had never noticed this before, but definitely something I will be paying more attention to. Even more so now, since I upgraded to all steel braided lines and AN fittings, when I went to put the turbo support bracket back on, I could bolt it to the block, but not the turbo because it was hitting one of the fittings. The only way I can see it fitting, is trimming the bracket, but then sacrificing the mount.

Seerlah
05-03-2012, 06:35 AM
What manifold are you guys using? I am thinking a ported stock manifold and stock turbo bolts would solve this issue.

CamrideA4
05-03-2012, 07:04 AM
What manifold are you guys using? I am thinking a ported stock manifold and stock turbo bolts would solve this issue.

I'm using Doug's manifold. I wish I had gone the stock/ported route honestly. Unfortunately like a dumbass I threw my stock manifold out while cleaning my garage about 6 months ago. I'm about to just hobble the car up to my local shop and pay them whatever they want to get the stupid thing installed. I will attempt it myself this afternoon, but if I can't get that shit on in the first attempt it's going to the shop.

xdewaynex
05-03-2012, 08:46 AM
Im running the high flow manifold as well that came with the FT kit.

Seerlah
05-03-2012, 08:51 AM
Do you guys know the size and thread pitch of the bolts? If so, I would suggest you try the ARP bolts in that size. Worked for me with my setup on both my downpipe and turbo to manifold flange (no more studs). I can't see those bolts costing more than $20 from Summit Racing.

Edit: Found the bolt size for the stock bolt. It's M10x1.50x50mm. And the High Flow manifolds use a M10x1.50x70mm bolt. Here is the ARP bolt you can use with the FT manifold. These bolts really work, as they grab the threads. These are not the easiest to torque down, and don't be fooled if you "think" you have it torqued down all the way. Because more than likely you won't on your first, second, or even third time around torquing them down. Ask me how I know! I am using these on a bottom mount T3 flange with a heavy turbo, and they hold up after testing different ways to go about it. I think these will help both of you fix your issue.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-662-1009/

Gberg888
05-03-2012, 10:11 AM
Good to know!

hazard860
05-03-2012, 10:17 AM
on mine the nut closest to the engine came loose, i just added a washer and i've been good.

xdewaynex
05-03-2012, 10:34 AM
Do you guys know the size and thread pitch of the bolts? If so, I would suggest you try the ARP bolts in that size. Worked for me with my setup on both my downpipe and turbo to manifold flange (no more studs). I can't see those bolts costing more than $20 from Summit Racing.

Edit: Found the bolt size for the stock bolt. It's M10x1.50x50mm. And the High Flow manifolds use a M10x1.50x70mm bolt. Here is the ARP bolt you can use with the FT manifold. These bolts really work, as they grab the threads. These are not the easiest to torque down, and don't be fooled if you "think" you have it torqued down all the way. Because more than likely you won't on your first, second, or even third time around torquing them down. Ask me how I know! I am using these on a bottom mount T3 flange with a heavy turbo, and they hold up after testing different ways to go about it. I think these will help both of you fix your issue.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-662-1009/


I remember reading your problem with torquing down those ARP bolts. Im even running lock washers, but they didnt seem to help. My only problem is getting that damn manifold off. The space to access the nuts holding it on are a pain to get to.

Seerlah
05-03-2012, 10:41 AM
Leave the manifold on, just swap out the bolts, and place these ARP ones in. They are fairly easy to take out. It's torquing them down that is the hard part. It's not really hard, but I'm talking on the standpoint of simply torquing down a bolt which should be as easy as...torquing down a bolt.

People don't really understand how these bolts are different than others till you actually use them. I thought it was just a more durable bolt with the ARP name on it. Well, I was wrong. The design of them hugs the threads more and more as you torque the bolt down. The grip will be so tight that the bolt won't back out. Trust me, the ARP bolts will solve your issue. And they come with washers.

Also, my problem was was really using a 25mm bolt where I was told to use a 20mm bolt. Should have listened in the first place, thinking that if a standard 1" bolt can fit then a 25mm ARP bolt would fit also. Nope, I was wrong there too.

xdewaynex
05-03-2012, 11:15 AM
I remember seeing a picture somewhere before of the thread difference of the ARP and a standard bolt. The only problem with leaving the manifold on, is that the bolt next to head will not come out because if where it is located. It is so close to the head, there is no room to extract it. But I guess having 2 ARP bolts, good and tight, is better than nothing, and just keep an eye on the other one.

Seerlah
05-03-2012, 11:22 AM
I didn't know you had to remove the manifold to get the bolt in. That sucks. Is it the actual head the is in the way, or a component?

CamrideA4
05-03-2012, 11:41 AM
I didn't know you had to remove the manifold to get the bolt in. That sucks. Is it the actual head the is in the way, or a component?

The head is in the way. You have to put that bolt in before you put the exhaust manifold on.

I can't use the ARP bolts because of time, I'm going to just pick something up from Fastenal. I know they carry Nord Locks so I'm just hoping they have some decent bolts.

redline380
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
The head is in the way. You have to put that bolt in before you put the exhaust manifold on.

are you talking about the frankenurbo manifold? cause i used my buddy's 17mm wrench from this set and it works very well at geting all the manifold to turbo bolts out on the stock manifold. https://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/SGRBLM7T/7-PIECE-METRIC-12-POINT-LONG-DOUBLE-BOX-PRO-SWING-RATCHETING-WRENCH-SET/

Seerlah
05-03-2012, 12:11 PM
CamrideA4, just because they list things as back ordered does not mean they always are. I picked up ARP bolts from them that were back ordered, and they shipped out the next day (ones currently on my car)

My experience with Fastenal has been rather late when it comes to shipping, unless they are close to you can pick up personally.

Edit: I actually just called Summit Racing. They said that ARP does in fact have them, and they can be drop shipped direct from ARP.

GOODBYNAAIR
05-03-2012, 01:59 PM
If im reading this right, new bolts are a good thing and you need them anyways. This will help to lock them down >> http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-18t-k03k04-turbo-locking-flange-p-1300.html <<

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527894_164860003643240_100003577245664_222289_9866 82153_n.jpg

thenj3
05-03-2012, 05:23 PM
i never had an issue with my bolts backing out when i ran my ft setup. never had an issue getting a wrench onto the three studs either.

CamrideA4
05-04-2012, 07:26 AM
If im reading this right, new bolts are a good thing and you need them anyways. This will help to lock them down >> http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-18t-k03k04-turbo-locking-flange-p-1300.html <<

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527894_164860003643240_100003577245664_222289_9866 82153_n.jpg


I just grabbed this. I won't be able to work on the car until Monday at the earliest anyway (baby shower this weekend plus in-laws are coming in today). The bolt is confusing me though but I'm thinking that's because they're stretched. When I went to the parts store (had to go to Ace Hardware, Fastenal wasn't even open on Thursday at 5pm, WTF) I couldn't get the bolt to match up the thread pitch to either the M10 1.5 or the 3/8" standard pitch (though it was honestly much closer to the 3/8" than the M10). I sent Doug an email to confirm which bolts are used as they may not be the same as the stockers (different turbo, different manifold, so it could be a different bolt).

I'll let you guys know what he says. I'm guessing though that they're actually m10's and mine are just stretched to hell.

FWIW I have no problem getting to the three bolts, but you can't take the one closest to the head out until the manifold is removed if you're using Doug's manifold (at least on an AWM engine, can't vouch for any other year). I do need to pick up a crows foot 12MM wrench for the manifold to head nuts though.

edit: Doug just confirmed that they are M10 1.5 pitch. For a minute I thought those ARP bolts were $16 each and I about shit a brick. [:o] I'm going to go ahead and order that and a set of crows feet so I can get my damn car back together early next week.

thenj3
05-04-2012, 08:11 PM
now thinking back on it, you are correct you cant get that inner bolt out when the mani is on the car. its been awhile since i had that setup. for my manifold bolts i doubt a crows foot would work. i used a 1/4" 12mm swivel socket on some and a 12mm wrench. the wrench i used is a snap on which is skinnier than more and is able to get in there nice.

CamrideA4
05-09-2012, 06:57 AM
I tried to order those ARP bolts but they said they are not in stock and weren't getting them until the 22nd. I'm just going to have to find something good enough locally since I just wrecked my bike and need my car running ASAP.

Seerlah
05-09-2012, 07:00 AM
You called them up and they said this? When I called them up (when I made the post above) the guy said that they personally didn't have them in stock, but ARP had them in stock and he would have drop shipped them. He even put me on hold for like 2 min to confirm with ARP. Maybe I just happened to talk to a good rep that day that knew what he was doing?

But you can always try regular bolts, then place in the ARP ones once they arrive. The ARP ones will not back out, but you would need to re-torque the regular bolts till then. Also, you may want to go with the 60mm bolts instead of the 70mm ones. It was a trial and error thing with me. On my turbo 25mm bolts would fit if they were any ordinary bolt (roughly 1"). But not the ARP ones. I had to use 20mm ones, because it gets really tough to torque them down. The extended bolt length for the high flow manifold is 70mm. I would opt for the 60mm ones just because of what I know now. If you could get them in 65mm, even better. But it was still a trial and error thing for me, so 70mm may be able to torque down all the way, and 60mm might come up too short. 65mm would be the ones I would go with, from simple trial and error learning. Can't find them on Summit Racing, though

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-662-1008/

Seerlah
05-09-2012, 07:26 AM
See if Fastenal has M10 Nord Lock Washers. I just happen to have 3 laying around I am not using, but not sure how long it would take to ship them to you.

https://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0129541

CamrideA4
05-09-2012, 08:59 AM
See if Fastenal has M10 Nord Lock Washers. I just happen to have 3 laying around I am not using, but not sure how long it would take to ship them to you.

https://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0129541

I was going to do the Nord washers, but the Fastenal near my house evidently has weird hours or just doesn't open for the public, not sure. But I got that locking piece from 034 so I'm sure that'll be fine.

Either way I'm getting it towed in tomorrow morning to my local shop and I'm having them deal with everything.

CamrideA4
06-20-2012, 06:53 AM
FYI the 70mm bolts are not long enough for the FrankenTurbo manifold. I bought the ARP bolts and the shop just tried to install them and said they barely got 2 revolutions and they recommended using 80mm bolts. I'm going to order those now. Unfortunately that means this won't be done before my baby gets here, which sucks.

Here's what I ordered: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-662-1010/

Seerlah
06-20-2012, 07:09 AM
Sorry about that. I got the information from a different Audi site, where there was a list of bolt sizes and that is what was listed. It wasn't for the FT, but high flow manifolds. I assumed they would be the same. Once again, sorry for making you waste your money and time.

CamrideA4
06-21-2012, 10:54 AM
Sorry about that. I got the information from a different Audi site, where there was a list of bolt sizes and that is what was listed. It wasn't for the FT, but high flow manifolds. I assumed they would be the same. Once again, sorry for making you waste your money and time.

No worries man, I didn't do my own homework, not your fault. I just wanted to get the information out there for anyone else that might need to replace their FT bolts. I appreciate your contribution to this site. [:)]

xdewaynex
06-28-2012, 03:54 PM
Have you got these bolts in yet? Im getting ready to pull the trigger on them, as mine arent staying put.

CamrideA4
07-19-2012, 09:14 AM
Have you got these bolts in yet? Im getting ready to pull the trigger on them, as mine arent staying put.

It took forever but I finally got them a week ago. They're not in yet though, just had a baby so no time.

Quick question though, should I order some Nord-Locks to go with the ARP bolts or are they not needed? I've never used ARP fasteners so I don't know if they hold so well that the Nord-Locks would just be redundant. That piece from 034 is annoying so I'm not reusing it.

xdewaynex
08-29-2012, 05:28 AM
Just wanted to bump this and see if you had gotten a chance to install the new bolts, and if so, how are they holding up? I still havent done anything to mine yet. Thinking of running out and picking up some nord lock washers in a bit.

QuattroGinger
01-16-2013, 08:08 AM
how would anti seize be if i added it with ARP bolts? would that help to get them out later down the road? seems like after they in it would be a bitch to get them back out after few months.

did anyone try using these
http://www.034motorsport.com/turbochargers-and-accessories-turbocharger-accessories-locking-tab-m10-or-38-turbo-nut-p-1329.html

Vierings
01-16-2013, 08:58 AM
Just wanted to bump this and see if you had gotten a chance to install the new bolts, and if so, how are they holding up? I still havent done anything to mine yet. Thinking of running out and picking up some nord lock washers in a bit.

I have a lock washer between two nuts. And it seems to be working well.

xdewaynex
01-16-2013, 11:59 AM
The standard lock washers failed me, and Ive had the Nord Locks for 4 months now, and everything seems to be golden.

Seerlah
01-16-2013, 01:04 PM
how would anti seize be if i added it with ARP bolts? would that help to get them out later down the road? seems like after they in it would be a bitch to get them back out after few months.

did anyone try using these
http://www.034motorsport.com/turbochargers-and-accessories-turbocharger-accessories-locking-tab-m10-or-38-turbo-nut-p-1329.html

You don't want to use those unless you have really easy access to the bolts. I picked those up for my T3 flange and turbine housing outlet flange. The steal is so thick I did not even bother with them. I still have them in one of my box-o-shit. You may want to look into the IE one, though.

http://www.intengineering.com/integrated-engineering-k03-bolt-locking-plate

xdewaynex
07-21-2013, 09:02 PM
Just wanted to update on this. While coming home from Import Alliance today, I noticed the spool of my turbo was louder than on the way up. I pulled over, and noticed the 2 outer bolts had come loose, causing a leak, between the turbo and manifold. Found the nearest parts store, to borrow a socket and wrench to tighten them up. One of them ended up being broke, pretty much even where the 2 items meet. Im undecided on whether to run the ARP bolts, or just get new bolts, and the metal tabs to fold against the manifold and bolts. Nord locks have seem to fail on keeping things tight.

Seerlah
07-22-2013, 03:43 AM
Don't use the chromoly bolts I listed above, but the stainless steel ones if you do plan on running the ARP bolts.

xdewaynex
07-22-2013, 04:56 AM
Are the chromoly bolts the ones you had trouble with in the past?

Looking at the ARP bolts, it doesnt look like I can run the locking tabs, the way the heads are. Will the ARP bolts be enough, or should I run the nord lock washers with them?

Roadtrippn
07-25-2013, 06:58 PM
Keeping an eye on this.. Currently peiceing together my FT setup. Anyone else go ARP?

Fly_R_Die
07-25-2013, 09:19 PM
I recently installed my FT kit with the studs that came with it. I haven't noticed anything becoming loose. Should I be worried?

xdewaynex
07-25-2013, 10:31 PM
Go my ARP bolts installed this morning. They seem to bite pretty good, while threading. I installed them with the nord lock washers as well. Ill keep this update with anything that happens.

nynoah
07-26-2013, 10:26 AM
I can't believe no one has mentioned this. http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-18t-k03k04-turbo-locking-flange-p-1300.html

You don't need fancy bolts from ARP or crazy expensive Nord Locks. Get this and your bolts will not back out. I know, because I put one on and failed to bend the tab enough on the inside bolt to the head and it came loose. I bent it correctly and it has held rock solid since.

nynoah
07-26-2013, 10:38 AM
Also to help anyone with the install on this manifold. This is what I did and it was way easier than trying to use stock size manifold nuts. These should come with the mani from Franken, but what can we do?

Its still a pain but it is FAR more manageable if you use these nuts and not the stock ones. http://www.034motorsport.com/hardwar...d-p-22473.html
They are 10mm heads which gives you way more room to move around. I used those in addition to the thick stock manifold washers.

I then bought a 10mm clawfoot wrench set from harbor freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-3-8-eighth-inch-crowfoot-metric-wrench-set-94427.html You then take that and grind down the edges to get rid of the excess metal... the round part. Make it into a sharp triangle on both sides. It will give you more room to wrench.

You then buy a wobble 3/8th extension which will give you more room. I don't mean the type with joints. I mean the type that wobles on the head. http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-14-in-38-in-12-in-drive-wobble-socket-extensions-67971.html Though I prefer the craftsman ones to the harbor freight ones.

I also ground down the heads of my studs a little. Made it a little more easier. You have to take measurements of both the manifold and the nut height. Cheater way to get the height right of that is to put on the corners fully tightened down and then measure that point and shave down the other studs to that point. This makes it easier to do the center top ones.

Then put them all one and go in a circle tightening them down partially as you go in the circle till they all cinch at one time. Prevents being stuck without the ability to get to nuts.

Hope that helps.

here are some pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/nynoah/Audi%20A4/IMG_6977_zps27657a07.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nynoah/media/Audi%20A4/IMG_6977_zps27657a07.jpg.html)

I would also HIGHLY HIGHLY advise buying that 3 point lock washer for the top of the turbo. You can get one for 034 or IE. Your bolts there will back out unless you have that lock washer. Ask me how I know :( I also bought the bolts you see there from Autozone for not much. They had the right high grade ones. M8 or M12 I think... I have to look.

xdewaynex
07-26-2013, 11:27 AM
The reason why Im not running one of those flanges, is that I dont want to remove the manifold. Ive had more problems with the 2 other turbo bolts, than the one under the head. For the one under the head, I ended up using a stud and nut, since you cant get the bolt out, without removing the head. The arp bolts cant be used with any of those locking tabs, as the head is a 12 point, and has a rounded lip.

nynoah
07-26-2013, 11:40 AM
If you use the tools I showed you and grind them down like I said, in addition to the nuts I linked to, you can get that manifold on with limited trouble. Those nuts are 10mm heads. So you get WAY more room to deal with. I can get that manifold off in no time with it like that. I think the only viable long term solution is that 3 point star lock from 034. Anything else and.... maybe it will work or maybe you will be doing it all over again to put that 3 point star lock on.

QuattroGinger
07-26-2013, 05:39 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned this. http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-18t-k03k04-turbo-locking-flange-p-1300.html

You don't need fancy bolts from ARP or crazy expensive Nord Locks. Get this and your bolts will not back out. I know, because I put one on and failed to bend the tab enough on the inside bolt to the head and it came loose. I bent it correctly and it has held rock solid since.

I paid $5 for arp bolts. But never put them in lol


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QuattroGinger
07-26-2013, 05:42 PM
For motor out and all pretty I'm surprised u went FT


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Vierings
07-26-2013, 11:50 PM
I'll add my $0.02 in on the instal. On my 97 AEB and I left the head on.
I had the manifold/turbo loosely connected when I slid them into place (I used the studs from the kit). I ended up using skinnier washers and nuts on the manifold/head studs and they were much easier to put in. After having my studs back out a few times with lock washers, I picked up some exhaust putty and put it around the studs. Brakes off easily if you need to pull the turbo. But I haven't had problems with it backing out since I added the putty.

Question though, have any of you had problems with the TIP? The combination of the TIP/MAF/Filter push against the strut tower, the pipe stays on the turbo fine, but the angle pushed the N75 into my AC fan. I have since relocated it and the problem was solved. Just putting it out there for a solution for my self and others who may have that problem.

Fly_R_Die
07-27-2013, 05:21 AM
I had a little bit of trouble with the FT TIP. I'm running the MBC along with the N75 and had a hard time keeping everything away from the fan. Also the angle that the stock dv went into the port on the TIP was difficult also.

nynoah
07-27-2013, 08:54 AM
For motor out and all pretty I'm surprised u went FT


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I did not, that is a GTRS with a Franken Turbo manifold.

QuattroGinger
07-27-2013, 03:49 PM
I cutdown down tip on both turbo and MAF side. Very tight against headlight now


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Vierings
07-27-2013, 10:17 PM
I cutdown down tip on both turbo and MAF side. Very tight against headlight now


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Suggestions for cutting it down? That is some thick silicone.

sa_seahawker
07-27-2013, 10:33 PM
Interesting thread. Subscribed

nynoah
07-28-2013, 08:23 AM
Suggestions for cutting it down? That is some thick silicone.

A razor blade and patience to do it right.

Vierings
07-28-2013, 11:14 AM
A razor blade and patience to do it right.

How much did you cut it down on each end? I feel like there isnt much room to cut and still be able to clamp on the maf and also onto the turbo.

QuattroGinger
07-29-2013, 05:05 AM
How much did you cut it down on each end? I feel like there isnt much room to cut and still be able to clamp on the maf and also onto the turbo.

Well I ha to cut down intake side because it simply wouldn't fit over bigger MAF housing. So I cut till it fit. Turbo side had been cut down from PO but he cut at angle so it didnt fit flush on turbo. I cut it down another 1/2 inch to help make it flush but not sure how much he originally cut off


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nynoah
07-29-2013, 06:35 AM
How much did you cut it down on each end? I feel like there isnt much room to cut and still be able to clamp on the maf and also onto the turbo.

I have no clue the turbo came as a kit used with that TIP. It was cut down by the prior owner. I would suggest that you take out your headlight, cut the tip down a little and then install it. Then install the headlight and see where you are at. The headlight will still hit the TIP but that is ok.

xdewaynex
08-01-2013, 05:16 PM
I had been told by 2 other people about a brace for the exhaust that bolts to the transmission. I honestly didnt know there was one. Today I modified the factory turbo brace to work around my AN fittings, hopefully giving enough upward force on the turbo, to keep the bolts from ever backing out. Im going to look into having a brace for the downpipe as well. Not having a brace on the down pipe, most likely wasnt helping anything with the turbo to manifold bolts, and downpipe to turbo bolts.

MetalMan
01-08-2014, 12:46 PM
I had been told by 2 other people about a brace for the exhaust that bolts to the transmission. I honestly didnt know there was one. Today I modified the factory turbo brace to work around my AN fittings, hopefully giving enough upward force on the turbo, to keep the bolts from ever backing out. Im going to look into having a brace for the downpipe as well. Not having a brace on the down pipe, most likely wasnt helping anything with the turbo to manifold bolts, and downpipe to turbo bolts.

Bumping this...

Been running FrankenTurbo for darn near 2.5 years, the first two years of that on my '98 A4 and now about 2-3 months on my 2001 A4.

I get this weird rattling noise when the turbo/engine get hotter (like when I'm on the freeway or driving spiritedly on the street). It seems to be a metal-on-metal noise that sort of reverberates throughout the car, and originally I thought it was from the outlet flange of the 034 HFC hitting the frame of the car, but never was sure.
It seemed to be fixed on my '98 A4 after properly installing the turbo mounting bolts with the 034 locking tab and trying to rotate the turbo to keep the 034 HFC as far from the frame as possible.
But now it's come up with my 2001 A4, which has the locking tab, and I've re-torqued the mounting bolts (42 ft-lbs) with the turbo glowing red hot.

I have had to cut the lip off the metal turbo-to-manifold gasket because the ports on my FT turbo/manifold don't align properly with OEM gaskets (the same gaskets align with my K03/stock manifold).
I've tried running gasketless on my '98 A4 but the surfaces don't seem to be flat enough for this.
At this point I'm wondering if this lip-less stock gasket is causing the rattling noise despite the turbo mounting bolts being cranked down. So I'm going to order the Integrated Engineering Cometic gasket:
http://www.performancebyie.com/cometic-vw-k03-k04-inlet-gasket

Also, I have never run a turbo brace with my FT kit as the factory brace just doesn't line up. Does anybody who is using one have pictures? I'm almost wondering if I should mock up a brace by bending/drilling a piece of 1/8" thick x 1" wide steel, and then trace the edges onto another sheet of steel and basically make the brace U-shaped like the stock brace (for rigidity).

xdewaynex
01-08-2014, 01:01 PM
I dont have any pics of the modded stock brace, but 5 months since I made the above post and using ARP bolts, I havent had a single issue with the turbo coming loose again. I honestly believe you can get away with the stock bolts and a brace, and you will be set. I have no help with the gasket issue. The rattling issue, have you checked your bolts? I had somewhat of the same sound, when one of my turbo bolts broke and the other had backed out, just vibrating around.

MetalMan
01-08-2014, 02:34 PM
I dont have any pics of the modded stock brace, but 5 months since I made the above post and using ARP bolts, I havent had a single issue with the turbo coming loose again. I honestly believe you can get away with the stock bolts and a brace, and you will be set. I have no help with the gasket issue. The rattling issue, have you checked your bolts? I had somewhat of the same sound, when one of my turbo bolts broke and the other had backed out, just vibrating around.

That's great.
For the rattling: last night I drove around pretty hard and got the turbo to glow (first time I'd ever seen the FT that color LOL). Then I torqued the 2 outer bolts to 42 ft-lbs and used a box-end wrench to tighten the inner bolt. Also re-secured the 034 locking tab.
After this, drove around some more and the rattling persisted after the engine got hot again. So my bolts are not loose or broken.

I just ordered 2 cometic K03/K04 turbo inlet gaskets from IE. Charged me $10 to ship those bastards UPS Ground, and when I called, the guy said there IS NO WAY they can ship them any cheaper, like USPS or even just throwing the gaskets into a standard letter envelope for 40 cents or whatever it costs to mail letters these days.

kraylon
01-08-2014, 06:47 PM
IE makes this bracket, which I bought but life hasnt let me make attempt to install it yet

http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-turbo-support-bracket

redline380
01-08-2014, 07:03 PM
IE makes this bracket, which I bought but life hasnt let me make attempt to install it yet

http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-turbo-support-bracket

I would like to see pictures of that installed. I cant see it in my mind

kraylon
01-08-2014, 07:28 PM
im not 100% sure if or how it works but again life hasn't let me get my butt out in my garage to poke around at it either, hopefully soon ill be able to

MetalMan
01-09-2014, 08:00 AM
IE makes this bracket, which I bought but life hasnt let me make attempt to install it yet

http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-turbo-support-bracket

I saw that too... and wondered where/how I would install it. It looks like its just a bracket which will attach to the compressor mounting bolts, and then you're supposed to build up a bracket using this piece.

MetalMan
01-11-2014, 12:50 PM
Last night I took it upon myself to see if I could modify the stock turbo brace to work with the FT F4H and manifold... I think it was successful :)
Ended up drilling a new 8mm hole on the bottom of the bracket (where it mounts to the block) about 3-4mm above the original hole. Then I added a washer between the bracket and turbo. Seemed to fit decently well!

Also threw in the IE Cometic turbo-->manifold gasket. It's amazing they charge $15/each for those things... and that I was willing to pay that price. I wasn't able to clean the turbo/manifold surfaces because I didn't want to remove the oil drain line and drain the oil (only 1500 miles into this oil change). But I got it in there.
I did an inital torque to 35ft-lbs, and then drove it around to get the turbo nice and hot. I retorqued the bolts, except the outermost mounting bolt didn't seem to torque, just seemed to keep spinning while making a weird noise. Really hoping it didn't strip the hole in the turbo or anything like that! I don't have another bolt to put in so I didn't want to take it out either. Anyways, then I crimped on the 034 locking tab and will hope for the best.

And here's a picture I took of the stock brace before modifications. Didn't take an after-picture, so I added a red circle to show where I drilled the new hole:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/4x4pede/Audi%20A4/20140110_183400_zpsb9ededf3.jpg

10kredline
02-12-2014, 08:45 AM
Bumping this...

It's not necessary to use the turbo brace right?

MetalMan
02-12-2014, 09:41 AM
Bumping this...

It's not necessary to use the turbo brace right?

Most people don't run one it seems. In fact I can't seem to recall hearing of anybody using the factory piece except me, let alone any brace. If you ask Doug @ FrankenTurbo, he'll tell you it isn't needed.

My high-flow cat and 2.5" downpipe hang off the turbo. I don't have the bracket on the downpipe that connects it to the transmission. And I've had problems with rattling and such coming from the turbo, which has been fixed by changing the type of turbo-->manifold gasket and adding the turbo support brace.

Adding a turbo support brace may else help reduce/eliminate loosening turbo mounting bolts that MANY of us have dealt with.

xdewaynex
02-12-2014, 11:12 AM
From my experience, I would run the bracket. I ran forever without the turbo bracket and down pipe bracket (which is still missing) and had problems with the turbo/manifold and exhaust bolts coming loose. It went as far as the bolt holes in the turbo getting stripped and having to take it to a machine shop. I threw in some ARP bolts, and modified the turbo bracket to fit around my AN fittings, and no more problems.

ray4624
02-12-2014, 11:15 AM
Not to thread jack but any one have pics of the bracket on an elim setup?


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nynoah
02-12-2014, 11:44 AM
I would like to see pictures of that installed. I cant see it in my mind

Its a partial solution. You need to attach a self made bracket to the point of the triangle and attach that to a solid point on the engine.

ballinb5
02-12-2014, 12:30 PM
on a similar question, did anyone replace the head bolts (part that goes into the head) or just re-use the stock ones?

kraylon
02-12-2014, 09:08 PM
I still havent got to mess around with that bracket, its been a stupid busy winter at work for me, but I did get a new fmic that is almost installed hopefully ill get her put back together before spring time.

nynoah
02-12-2014, 10:55 PM
on a similar question, did anyone replace the head bolts (part that goes into the head) or just re-use the stock ones?

Do you mean exhaust studs? I used my stock ones and replaced damaged ones as needed. Use your best Judgement for that.

ballinb5
02-13-2014, 03:16 AM
Yea the head studs. How do they screw in, having a hard time visualizing how they come out or can be screwed in tight

MetalMan
02-13-2014, 07:38 AM
They are just studs that get threaded in, then a locking nut is screwed onto them when you install the manifold which will thread the studs in further.

On my 2001 A4 ALL of the exhaust manifold studs were hard to get out (each one required vice grip pliers...). I used a tap to clean up the threads in the head, but a couple of the new studs were still difficult to install, and one had to be cut down because it wouldn't thread in far enough (it interfered with the exhaust mani).

MetalMan
05-14-2014, 10:30 AM
Putting this up again! Wondering if newer FT owners have also had turbo-bolt-loosening issues or not, or if they just learned from the experiences of the earlier FT users.

I'll be installing a new FT F21 and new FT manifold (to replace my F4H and older FT manifold), and want to be DONE with it for as long as possible. Been reading all over the place and have my own experiences, and here are my conclusions:
1) you need SOMETHING to prevent the bolts from backing out
2) lock washers alone will not necessarily be enough over an extended period of time
3) K03 locking tab from 034 or IE are a good solution, but have to be installed with the manifold if you're using bolts. Also if you loosen/tighten them enough the tab will break off (my own experience) and can't be replaced unless you pull the whole manifold (again, assuming use of turbo bolt)
4) some people mentioned using exhaust putty, and I haven't heard anything bad about this option, nor have I tried it
5) a company called "Stage 8" makes some pretty cool locking-tab-nuts, but their off-the-shelf items won't work with a FT/high-flow K03/K04 manifold
6) drilling bolt heads and safety-wiring bolt heads together should not fail. Just can be a PITA to drill the bolt heads and I haven't seen proper-length or longer bolts available with this hole already drilled.
7) a turbo support brace is recommended.
8) downpipe-to-transmission brace is recommended (stock downpipe has this)

After having mostly success with the K03/K04 locking tab from 034 with turbo bolts I won't be using this solution. They're nearly $10 ( + shipping) and the tabs can break off if bent too many times. They're also mildly difficult to bend the first time, especially if the car is put back together when you bend the tabs.

This next time around I intend to do perform 6) and 7). Safety wire is cheap and easily replaceable, and I already modified my stock turbo brace to work with my FT F4H setup. Also going to use the stock turbo bolt washers.

xdewaynex
05-14-2014, 11:39 AM
ARP bolts and modified stock brace are still holding up fine for me.

pbcrazy
05-14-2014, 12:13 PM
I run the studs/nuts that come with the f21 and haven't had any problems other than the fact you have to replace them everytime you drop the turbo. I don't have a turbo support bracket.

nynoah
05-14-2014, 03:02 PM
Buy the 034 locking tab. Stop being stubborn for no good reason.

ray4624
05-14-2014, 03:45 PM
What's wrong with using the stock turbo bolts? Does everyone use studs?


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nynoah
05-14-2014, 03:50 PM
If you are using the high flow mani, you can not use the stock turbo bolts. I personally am using the FT mani with grade 8 bolts of the right length which Autozone of all places carried with the 034 locking system. Prior to the locking system, I had issues with the bolts backing out. Post 034 lock... I have not. It works and well worth the 10 dollars to not have to deal with it.

MetalMan
05-15-2014, 07:38 AM
Buy the 034 locking tab. Stop being stubborn for no good reason.

Are you referring to me? I've already got a new one laying around and have used 2 other ones for the last year and a half or so. Does it say anything that I've decided to move away from that "solution"?

nynoah
05-15-2014, 07:50 AM
Ok well what solution have you found? I am curious now.

MetalMan
05-15-2014, 08:34 AM
Ok well what solution have you found? I am curious now?

From my post # 75:



6) drilling bolt heads and safety-wiring bolt heads together should not fail. Just can be a PITA to drill the bolt heads and I haven't seen proper-length or longer bolts available with this hole already drilled.
7) a turbo support brace is recommended.

After having mostly success with the K03/K04 locking tab from 034 with turbo bolts I won't be using this solution. They're nearly $10 ( + shipping) and the tabs can break off if bent too many times. They're also mildly difficult to bend the first time, especially if the car is put back together when you bend the tabs.

This next time around I intend to do perform 6) and 7). Safety wire is cheap and easily replaceable, and I already modified my stock turbo brace to work with my FT F4H setup. Also going to use the stock turbo bolt washers.

10kredline
05-17-2014, 06:06 PM
I have the ARP bolts without the 034 locking tabs and without the turbo bracket AND without the lollipop screw on the downpipe, holding fine for me.

pbcrazy
05-17-2014, 07:19 PM
What arp bolts do you guys keep referring to? The studs hold fine but they are one time use and annoying to deal with

10kredline
05-17-2014, 11:18 PM
What arp bolts do you guys keep referring to? The studs hold fine but they are one time use and annoying to deal with

If I'm not mistaking but it was this size(. http://www.jegs.com/i/ARP/070/763-1010/10002/-1?parentProductId= I added 2 more m10x1mm spacers from home depot because it was a bit long. I screwed one down thinking it was suppose to go all the way but i ended up fucking up the threads on the turbo itself...lucky the original screw i used to mess up the thread was still holding.

MetalMan
05-19-2014, 08:37 AM
That's the right length but wrong pitch. 80mm length is about 3-5mm too long and will require either trimming of bolt length or spacing (as you said). Though I wonder why go for the stainless? The chromoly ones should be stronger, and are $13 cheaper:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-662-1010?seid=srese1&gclid=CPawgOSIub4CFc-BfgodLgoAIg
After the feedback on the ARP bolts I'm tempted to skip the safety lock wire and drilled-head [one-time-use] bolts.

pbcrazy
06-02-2014, 05:51 AM
Just saw metalman's response. The ones you linked MetalMan are also 80mm, are those the correct ones or are they too long like the ones 10kredline linked?

MetalMan
06-02-2014, 07:25 AM
ARP only makes 70mm and 80mm lengths - 70mm is too short and 80mm is a bit too long. See my prior post #87 about how to remedy the extra length.

pbcrazy
06-02-2014, 12:58 PM
What's the correct length? 75mm?

MetalMan
06-02-2014, 01:11 PM
What's the correct length? 75mm?

Honestly not sure, and it will depend on your use of washers/locking tab/etc. between the bolt heads and the exhaust manifold. Generally I have cut my 80mm bolts down to about 76mm while using only a locking tab between the bolt heads and manifold. If you're using OEM washers then probably 77mm max length.
In general though 75mm probably would work. I like to engage as many threads as possible without the bolt bottoming out in the turbo.
And don't forget high-temp anti-seize! Been using 034's stuff and haven't had a problem with seized turbo bolts/studs since.

B5nDisciple
11-21-2014, 04:58 PM
So today I wanted to test fit the bolt/washer/locking flange combination with the manifold to turbo connection in preparation of installing the F21L. I have the 80mm ARP bolts, nord lock washers, and 034 locking plate (which might not work too well due to the rounded arp bolts). Anyways I mocked everything up as you can see below. In prior posts it said that 75mm should be good (with spacing or cutting the bolts). Second picture is the measurement as configured in the mock up picture below (75.7mm). At that length it seemed the bolts (all three) were starting to hit the bottom, or were being obstructed by a rough casting process (not sure). I also know this bolt design (arp) starts to "tighten" a little as described earlier in this thread. Although there was still a visible gap between the turbo to manifold (with the gasket in place) the bolts started to get a little snug. I tightened them just a bit, and one of them ended up being a huge pain to get out and I will have to chase the threads to be safe. So either 75mm is too long, or the thread hole on the F21 was too rough at it's lower portion. The other two bolts were just as "tight" and didn't have any trouble coming out whatsoever. There were still a couple of mm's left to go in order for the two surfaces to be fully mated also.

I may just have to add more spacing. With 2 nord washers together (including the locking plate), the length was 72.8mm. Although this is close to the 70mm "too short" length, I wanted to get some input in advance. Would 2 nord washers be okay?
I've been discussing some specifics with Metalman with regard to the install, but thought I would share in this thread to add some insight to this discussion. I will be modifying my turbo brace and installing it with the F21 as well.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/chazbrdr/20141121_162844.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/chazbrdr/media/20141121_162844.jpg.html)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/chazbrdr/20141121_173427.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/chazbrdr/media/20141121_173427.jpg.html)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/chazbrdr/20141121_162856.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/chazbrdr/media/20141121_162856.jpg.html)

alexvanlewen
11-21-2014, 05:29 PM
So the shop I got mine installed at didn't put thread locker on and the turbo/manifold bolts backed out. Turns out one of the studs was broken inside the turbo.. Doug is sending me a replacement what do you think I should do? Give the shop hell and demand they fix it?

pbcrazy
11-21-2014, 06:04 PM
So today I wanted to test fit the bolt/washer/locking flange combination with the manifold to turbo connection in preparation of installing the F21L. I have the 80mm ARP bolts, nord lock washers, and 034 locking plate (which might not work too well due to the rounded arp bolts). Anyways I mocked everything up as you can see below. In prior posts it said that 75mm should be good (with spacing or cutting the bolts). Second picture is the measurement as configured in the mock up picture below (75.7mm). At that length it seemed the bolts (all three) were starting to hit the bottom, or were being obstructed by a rough casting process (not sure). I also know this bolt design (arp) starts to "tighten" a little as described earlier in this thread. Although there was still a visible gap between the turbo to manifold (with the gasket in place) the bolts started to get a little snug. I tightened them just a bit, and one of them ended up being a huge pain to get out and I will have to chase the threads to be safe. So either 75mm is too long, or the thread hole on the F21 was too rough at it's lower portion. The other two bolts were just as "tight" and didn't have any trouble coming out whatsoever. There were still a couple of mm's left to go in order for the two surfaces to be fully mated also.

I may just have to add more spacing. With 2 nord washers together, the length was 72.8mm. Although this is close to the 70mm "too short" length, I wanted to get some input in advance. Would 2 nord washers be okay?
I've been discussing some specifics with Metalman with regard to the install, but thought I would share in this thread to add some insight to this discussion. I will be modifying my turbo brace and installing it with the F21 as well.


First off, I have the 80mm ARP bolts on my franken and I can assure you there is no reason for the locking tab, the bolts stay put just fine. As for the length: No one really knows the ideal length, but I believe I have 2 (maybe 3) washers on each bolt. The 5 that come with the bolts and 1 of the stock ones as they are similar in size. I'll check for sure tomorrow, but they didn't bottom out and are holding just fine.

B5nDisciple
11-21-2014, 06:14 PM
So the shop I got mine installed at didn't put thread locker on and the turbo/manifold bolts backed out. Turns out one of the studs was broken inside the turbo.. Doug is sending me a replacement what do you think I should do? Give the shop hell and demand they fix it?

So you said the bolt backed out but you're using studs correct? How did a stud break off in the turbo? Did the shop over torque them? Or by "backing off" did you mean the stud broke hence it seeming like it had backed off? Your post is a little confusing can you clarify? I'm new to all this Frankenturbo stuff but have a decent grip on it from lots of reading and speaking with Metalman. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so mistakes can be mitigated in the future.

B5nDisciple
11-21-2014, 06:28 PM
First off, I have the 80mm ARP bolts on my franken and I can assure you there is no reason for the locking tab, the bolts stay put just fine. As for the length: No one really knows the ideal length, but I believe I have 2 (maybe 3) washers on each bolt. The 5 that come with the bolts and 1 of the stock ones as they are similar in size. I'll check for sure tomorrow, but they didn't bottom out and are holding just fine.

Awesome thanks man. From test fitting with 1 nord lock washer and the 034 tab, that's pretty much the same as 2 washers. I figure I might as well use the locking tab as I have it and it also adds spacing. I'm going to try the locking tab with two nord washers and see how that works (another mock-up test). I'm curious if you're using 3 as that's similar spacing as what I'll be testing.

alexvanlewen
11-21-2014, 06:53 PM
So you said the bolt backed out but you're using studs correct? How did a stud break off in the turbo? Did the shop over torque them? Or by "backing off" did you mean the stud broke hence it seeming like it had backed off? Your post is a little confusing can you clarify? I'm new to all this Frankenturbo stuff but have a decent grip on it from lots of reading and speaking with Metalman. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so mistakes can be mitigated in the future.
All 3 studs began to back out of the turbo. One of them was so loose that I could take it out with my hand.. they may have been over torqued, or installed incorrectly?

B5nDisciple
11-21-2014, 06:57 PM
All 3 studs began to back out of the turbo. One of them was so loose that I could take it out with my hand.. they may have been over torqued, or installed incorrectly?

So if all three backed out, where does the broken stud come onto play? I'm not sure if you read this thread from the beginning, but it's a VERY common issue. It's believed that it has a lot to do with the stock turbo brace being removed adding a bunch of vibration. There are lots of solutions in this thread. The ARP bolts work really great, along with nord washers and the 034 locking tab. I don't think it was the shops' fault though as they installed the parts you gave them (I assume). People have trouble with these bolts even when they are torqued properly. Lock-tite won't do the trick either from what I have read. I'm glad Doug is giving you a new turbo though, that's a great start.

alexvanlewen
11-21-2014, 07:01 PM
Not a new turbo, just the broken stud. One was over torqued and broken, which I should have realized from the rattling and leak. The other two were loose so I tightened them up. I'm going to make the shop drill the broken one out I think, but stick with the studs Doug includes with the kit

B5nDisciple
11-21-2014, 07:43 PM
Not a new turbo, just the broken stud. One was over torqued and broken, which I should have realized from the rattling and leak. The other two were loose so I tightened them up. I'm going to make the shop drill the broken one out I think, but stick with the studs Doug includes with the kit

The supplied studs/nuts should work fine, but I would suggest using either the nord lock washers, 034 locking flange, or a combination of both if you're going to have them reinstall everything. Another good suggestion that Metalman has is using the ultra high temp anti-seize so that the bolts don't get stuck if you ever need to uninstall. Most other anti-seize formulas will just burn off due to the extreme temperatures. It's a good idea to torque them, drive the car (get everything really hot), and torque again (while it's hot) from what I've heard. Then you'll bend the locking flange (if you're using it).

Nord washers: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271662389300?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Locking Flange: http://store.034motorsport.com/k03-k04-turbo-locking-flange.html
Anti Seize: http://store.034motorsport.com/ultra-high-temp-turbo-grade-antiseize-paste-1463.html

alexvanlewen
11-21-2014, 07:59 PM
You guys rock. Thanks a bunch

B5nDisciple
11-22-2014, 08:50 AM
First off, I have the 80mm ARP bolts on my franken and I can assure you there is no reason for the locking tab, the bolts stay put just fine. As for the length: No one really knows the ideal length, but I believe I have 2 (maybe 3) washers on each bolt. The 5 that come with the bolts and 1 of the stock ones as they are similar in size. I'll check for sure tomorrow, but they didn't bottom out and are holding just fine.

I have one more question for you. Did you torque the ARP bolts to 42 ft/lb's per the ATP instructions? I'm wondering if the ARP bolts would need to be torqued just a bit more than the stud/nut combination due to the difference in how the pieces are being pulled together by the pressure? Since the stud would be pulling the turbo up without going deeper into the turbo, while the arp bolt would be threading in while pulling up. I'm probably thinking about this too much but it seems that the torque being distributed through the threads while going in on the ARP bolts would need to be slightly more than a stud that is just being pulled up. This would be especially considerable if the arp bolts start to grab the threads before the two surfaces are joined and torque is applied. Thoughts?

Edit: So I did some research, and there definitely is a difference since there is twisting (rotational) torque with the bolts, but not with the studs. This website has a good article concerning head bolts vs. studs, so some of it applies directly: http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/head-stud-bolts

"By contrast, a head stud can be tightened into place without any direct clamping force applied through the tightening. A stud can be threaded into a slot up to “finger tightness,” or the degree to which it would be tightened by hand. Afterward, the cylinder head is installed and a nut is torqued into place against the stud. The nut torque provides the clamping force, rather than the torque of the fastener itself, and the rotational force is avoided entirely. Because the stud is torqued from a relaxed state, the pressure from the nut will make it stretch only along the vertical axis without a concurrent twisting load. The result is a more evenly distributed and accurate torque load compared to that of the head bolt. This ultimately translates into higher reliability and a lower chance of head gasket failure."

While it seems studs would make it much easier to calculate the proper torque specification, the ARP bolts seem to keep from backing out. There are definitely pros and cons to both variations, but I will definitely be using the bolts to start off.

Edit: And another thing I just thought of; since the stud leaves the nut with all the "responsibility" of providing clamping force, it makes sense that the stud would back off somewhat easily, since the stud is most likely only hand tightened. In this variation, the nut is the only variable applying pressure.

VS. the bolt that applies rotational clamping pressure (and grip), along with clamping pressure from the bolt head (2 variables applying clamping pressure). Based off all the testimonies discussing the bolts working much better than the studs, I'm guessing that's why. Although this is probably obvious to a lot of you guys, I have just been thinking through the differences and wanted to share.

pbcrazy
11-22-2014, 01:18 PM
I have one more question for you. Did you torque the ARP bolts to 42 ft/lb's per the ATP instructions? I'm wondering if the ARP bolts would need to be torqued just a bit more than the stud/nut combination due to the difference in how the pieces are being pulled together by the pressure? Since the stud would be pulling the turbo up without going deeper into the turbo, while the arp bolt would be threading in while pulling up. I'm probably thinking about this too much but it seems that the torque being distributed through the threads while going in on the ARP bolts would need to be slightly more than a stud that is just being pulled up. This would be especially considerable if the arp bolts start to grab the threads before the two surfaces are joined and torque is applied. Thoughts?
I did not use a torque wrench, mainly because of the space restraints of the bolts in the first place. There is practically no way to use one except for the front bolt unless the engine is pulled. I simply tighten the bolts down until there was no gap and they were nice and tight, since I used 2/3 washers (Still haven't checked, will do today) I knew I wouldn't have bottoming out issues so I just went for it and judged the tightness by the amount of pressure I applied.




Edit: So I did some research, and there definitely is a difference since there is twisting (rotational) torque with the bolts, but not with the studs. This website has a good article concerning head bolts vs. studs, so some of it applies directly: http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/head-stud-bolts

"By contrast, a head stud can be tightened into place without any direct clamping force applied through the tightening. A stud can be threaded into a slot up to “finger tightness,” or the degree to which it would be tightened by hand. Afterward, the cylinder head is installed and a nut is torqued into place against the stud. The nut torque provides the clamping force, rather than the torque of the fastener itself, and the rotational force is avoided entirely. Because the stud is torqued from a relaxed state, the pressure from the nut will make it stretch only along the vertical axis without a concurrent twisting load. The result is a more evenly distributed and accurate torque load compared to that of the head bolt. This ultimately translates into higher reliability and a lower chance of head gasket failure."

While it seems studs would make it much easier to calculate the proper torque specification, the ARP bolts seem to keep from backing out. There are definitely pros and cons to both variations, but I will definitely be using the bolts to start off.
I'm sure there are benefits to studs, which is why they are used so frequently in engines. I opted for bolts for a few reasons though:
1. Easier to remove (even with anti-seize on the nut/stud, you will have troubles removing the nut from it)
2. Less prone to snapping (Do you know how annoying it is to try and remove a broken stud? Really annoying)
3. Easier to find (If a stud breaks, you have to order new ones from franken. Bolts are easier to find by a long shot)



Edit: And another thing I just thought of; since the stud leaves the nut with all the "responsibility" of providing clamping force, it makes sense that the stud would back off somewhat easily, since the stud is most likely only hand tightened. In this variation, the nut is the only variable applying pressure.

VS. the bolt that applies rotational clamping pressure (and grip), along with clamping pressure from the bolt head (2 variables applying clamping pressure). Based off all the testimonies discussing the bolts working much better than the studs, I'm guessing that's why. Although this is probably obvious to a lot of you guys, I have just been thinking through the differences and wanted to share.
I can't speak on this, as I never had troubles with studs or bolts backing out. Just removing studs and studs breaking. However, the way studs are used in this application are similar to bolts. The stud tightens up before the nut does, so the only real difference should be that studs are more universal in length as the nut tightens down to the correct length. I doubt the clamping force difference in either medium is worth mentioning.

MetalMan
11-22-2014, 11:31 PM
I've gone through bolts, studs, more studs, and more bolts. Studs are a challenge as mentioned because you can't really guarantee they will be locked down. It's easy to lock down a bolt by its head, though.
Also when you use studs with a locknut, the locking portion of the nut will somewhat drive the stud in deeper, so the stud is no longer just "finger tight". I've had to drill out/re-tap a snapped stud in my F4H turbine housing because the stud was driven in to tightly (and it may have been before using high-temp antiseize).

After having been through WAY too many FrankenTurbo installs/bolts loosening/turbine housing thread repairs/etc. I settled on this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/4x4pede/Audi%20A4/0620141635_zps97644951.jpg

You can use Nordlocks, 034 locking tabs, etc. You can use ARP bolts and hope for the best. But can you count on them holding up? 034 locking tab was a solid solution for me. They are reusable a couple times, at least, but their thickness makes them difficult to work with.
Safety wiring is just about the primary way to secure fasteners in the aerospace industry. So long as the safety wire doesn't break, you're not going to have ANY problems with bolts/nuts backing out. Also removal of safety wire is quite easy! If you've practiced enough it's quick to reapply, and very cheap as well.

10kredline
11-23-2014, 04:06 PM
^^^^ That's pretty smart!!Hopefully the heat won't weaken the cables. I've had my arp bolts and washer for almost a year now and still holding up.

MetalMan
11-23-2014, 09:18 PM
^^^^ That's pretty smart!!Hopefully the heat won't weaken the cables. I've had my arp bolts and washer for almost a year now and still holding up.

Heat hasn't been a problem for the safety wire so far... it's been on there for 5 months / 3,000 miles and has seen mountain driving, canyon driving, daily drving, etc. It looks fine apart from some mild discoloration due to the heat.
Thanks for updating about your APR bolts!

Saskwatch
11-23-2014, 09:26 PM
I am in the process of making a "lock plate" to cure this. it sits on the turbo bolts, is re usable and bolts to the head via tab.

xdewaynex
12-01-2014, 04:14 PM
Im still having good luck with the arp bolts and modifying the stock turbo brace. I think the biggest problem is not using the turbo brace.

pbcrazy
12-01-2014, 04:28 PM
Im still having good luck with the arp bolts and modifying the stock turbo brace. I think the biggest problem is not using the turbo brace.

I'm doing fine with just the bolts. Don't even see the need for the turbo brace unless they start to act up

xdewaynex
12-01-2014, 04:36 PM
Probably dont need it with the arp bolts, but I threw it on there for that little bit of extra security. I ran for several months without it when I installed the arp's.

nynoah
12-01-2014, 04:43 PM
You wire solution may work. Depends on the gauge of the wire. The locking tab is a must for this turbo application. I was having nothing but problems till I put mine on. Even with it on, it still loosened a little but it prevented them from backing out enough to create a gasket leak. Also 12 sided head on those bolts would have never let the locking plate function. There would be nothing to bend the metal around to hold too.

[deleted]
09-29-2015, 03:30 PM
Im still having good luck with the arp bolts and modifying the stock turbo brace. I think the biggest problem is not using the turbo brace.
Bumpin it! No posts this year yet, just checking how everything is going with us. After reading all your posts I was inclined to do the F21 install the right way. Used high temp anti seize, drilled the nuts Doug sends in the kit, safety wired them together and they are holding greatly. The shop that installed my kit forgot the lollipop bolt for the downside and the wiggly exhaust slowly began to loosen the studs. Weeeeird. Threw in a 2.5" Borla CB and got it mounted correctly. No more issues and great performance!

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B5nDisciple
06-23-2016, 10:18 AM
I just wanted to share my solution for the bolts that back out. I wanted to wait awhile to make sure it was working well.

As I outlined my plan earlier in this thread...I used ARP's, Nord lock washers (2 per bolt), and the 034 locking plate as you can see. I also used the super high temp anti seize 034 sells.

I used the 42 ft/lb torque spec and re-torqued the two reachable bolts after ripping on the car and getting the setup super hot. I also used a normal wrench to tighten the inner bolt.

Even though I wasn't sure the locking tab would work on the ARP's with the Nord washers, you can see they do. The metal is bent into the ridges (although the ridges of the lock washers may be digging into the locking tab, providing some extra grip). I didn't bend the inner flange tab in as it was hard to reach, and that bolt didn't loosen either. This may be overkill, but I didn't want to take any chances and better safe than sorry.

I am also running a stock modified turbo brace too.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/5deeb07e09c3052eb5690a9744889ac5.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/8e2af5df1cea4c28384a3f990d330945.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/795d53b396e2019f022edeab701cd75a.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/d0cad5964ff4a74303e188968f016de7.jpg

Sleeper engine bay (besides the visible CTS badge on the fmic lol)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160623/019f91edaa94b6fc66ab4d973ea195f3.jpg

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