Ok, help me figure out clutch options

[jimrobbington]

Once again, my clutch is slipping. Pretty badly, actually. I upped the power slightly by advancing timing for the cold weather, and the clutch can't handle it. Sure, I can baby it for a week or so, and it might go away for a while, but I am definitely straddling that line of failure.

There are so many options out there, and I need help in figuring out what I need.

My goals for this clutch are:

1) Daily drivability, this is my only car.
2) Good balance of cost/performance. The cheaper the better, but I am not willing to sacrifice performance or longevity for cost.
3) Biggest I every plan to go, is K0R. (guessing roughly 400 ctq/400 chp max)

Other things I'm not sure on. Do I need a lwfw? What are pros/cons of a lwfw? What exactly is this "chatter" I hear about? Am I really looking at paying my shop ~8 hours to do this?

I have already peaked about 385 wtq when I hit peak boost at ~3200 RPM, and that is what is killing my stock clutch.

Options:

Vast, 034, Clutch Masters, South Bend

What's good, what's not? What stage do I need? Lwfw? Any input is welcome!

JR

[viziers]

Jim, I have had the ClutchMasters FX400 clutch now for about 30k and have never had one bit of an issue with it and using my stock Flywheel....



vizi

[jimrobbington]

Jim, I have had the ClutchMasters FX400 clutch now for about 30k and have never had one bit of an issue with it and using my stock Flywheel....



vizi

That's the kinda stuff I'm looking for, Jeff. Thanks. I assume I would have to resurface the stock flywheel?

JR

[M-Hood]

There is chatter and then there is gear rattle, problem is some people say chatter when they actually mean gear rattle.

Gear rattle is the sound of the gears inside the transmission spinning, that sound travels thru the input shaft of the transmission. The dual mass flywheel soaks up that sound, the lighter the flywheel the more you can hear.
Chatter is the sound of a disk skipping off the metal surface of the flywheel or pressure plate as it is being enaged from a stop.

LWFW will increase throttle response, the dual mass flywheel tends to cause rpm hang when shifting at higher rpms and the single mass flywheel will remove that because it is 1 sold flywheel.

For a normal driver you can go with a stage 2 or stage 3, but if you ever plan on launching your car or driving it hard then you will want to go with a 6 puck ceramic disk or something equal to that.

[viziers]

Most definatly need to have the flywheel resurfaced.. If anyone says you dont IMO they are wrong as the surface will not be a clean mate to the new clutch disc causing premature wear.


vizi

[M-Hood]

Most definatly need to have the flywheel resurfaced.. If anyone says you dont IMO they are wrong as the surface will not be a clean mate to the new clutch disc causing premature wear.


vizi

Correct. Its just like putting new brake pads on old rotors.

[jimrobbington]

How much does resurfacing cost? I'm assuming the FX400 is more than I need. Looks like stage 2 might not be enough, so stage 3 then?

JR

[viziers]

How much does resurfacing cost? I'm assuming the FX400 is more than I need. Looks like stage 2 might not be enough, so stage 3 then?

JR


Should not be more than $50. The FX 400 is good for 400wt so it should be perfect being you are at 380wt+.



vizi

[bman005]

I would stick with the factory flywheel for sure...You'll be a lot happier IMO

[rkesh88]

I think Elite motorsports here has an extra stage 3 fx300 for sale, which is what i went and my goals are the K0R as well. Its a good feel clutch and grabs much lower than the stock which is something i like.

[jimrobbington]

Should not be more than $50. The FX 400 is good for 400wt so it should be perfect being you are at 380wt+.



vizi

Not wheel, crank. Doubt I'll get much past 400 tq crank.

What about Vast's clutches? Doesn't Shane have one? Their stage 3 is on sale for $475 right now. Cheapest I have found the FX300 is almost $600.

JR

[viziers]

Oh opps, my bad..Lol A lot of people run the Vast clutch and I have not heard much bad (have not searched them).



vizi

[jimrobbington]

Oh opps, my bad..Lol A lot of people run the Vast clutch and I have not heard much bad (have not searched them).



vizi

Thanks, I know how you feel about Vast.

Rkesh, I emailed them to see if it is still available. Thanks for the tip!

JR

[M-Hood]

How much does resurfacing cost? I'm assuming the FX400 is more than I need. Looks like stage 2 might not be enough, so stage 3 then?

JR

That depends. Some shops will charge anywhere up to $300 to resurface a dual mass flywheel. South Bend offers it for free when buying one of their clutch kits, you just for the added cost of shipping the flywheel back with the clutch kit. CM will also do the resurfacing when buying one of their clutch kits, around $50 to cover the labor and adding shipping cost when shipping it with the clutch kit.

[DRAKLORE]

I Have the Vast stg 3 which is one of the other popular clutches on our platform, it was an awesome deal, easy install and a very very smooth oEM feel. This is a car that is primarily driven by my wife during the week and she had no issues with the difference in feel. I've been to the track and it has held launch after launch.
No chatter, no install issues.
I have driven a few clutchmaster setups, those were some Gnarly setups, but felt very heavy and had some chatter. I think vizi and a few others have no chatter!? But for me the vast clutch was a no brainer.
I believe Jmarch has it as well :-)
A resurface should be anywhere from 50-75$ and is highly recommended.

[jimrobbington]

Well, rkesh, Elite Motorsport gave me a "deal" of 700 shipped on the FX300. Not a deal at all.

The FX300 sounds good, but its hard to beat Vast's price. I just dunno. I know Jeff isn't the first to have problems with Vast, but is it worth it to spend more just to not support a so-so reputable company?

JR

[drumnjuny]

u know my vote: customer service comes first

luckily i still have some life left in my clutch, but i've been doing some research on clutch/flywheels as well. how loud is the "gear chatter"?

b/c I definitely want to get some better throttle response and have my engine speed drop faster in between shifts, and always planned on getting a lwfw just not sure eaxctly how annoying the noise is. if i understand it correctly does it depend on the shape of your transmission?

[DRAKLORE]

If your worried about customer service send an email to [email protected] and ^see how much he's willing to help you. I was the test dummy for the clutch. I paid 570$ for it so don't think I got a deal. They sent me two pressure plates, custom made a different slave rod and were in the phone
Making sure I had no issues, they even helped me out a great deal by discounting a lpfp upgrade and helped me
With tuning software. That's alot more support than most other companies offered, and between them and ray at RAI I've got nothing but good things to say so far.
I will say that chatter and feel are the only things I've heard about the clutchmasters setup. They are def proven clutches and some people get chatter and stiff feel while others seem to have no issues. I drove on a clutchmasters fx400 in my friends Vw and thats what made me choose vast.
Good luck jim

[jimrobbington]

If your worried about customer service send an email to [email protected] and ^see how much he's willing to help you. I was the test dummy for the clutch. I paid 570$ for it so don't think I got a deal. They sent me two pressure plates, custom made a different slave rod and were in the phone
Making sure I had no issues, they even helped me out a great deal by discounting a lpfp upgrade and helped me
With tuning software. That's alot more support than most other companies offered, and between them and ray at RAI I've got nothing but good things to say so far.
I will say that chatter and feel are the only things I've heard about the clutchmasters setup. They are def proven clutches and some people get chatter and stiff feel while others seem to have no issues. I drove on a clutchmasters fx400 in my friends Vw and thats what made me choose vast.
Good luck jim

Thanks Shane! Vast us actually having a Christmas sale right now for $475 for their stage 3, which is what I am leaning towards for both price and performance. I am pretty sure that price is impossible to beat.

JR

[drumnjuny]

Thanks Shane! Vast us actually having a Christmas sale right now for $475 for their stage 3, which is what I am leaning towards for both price and performance. I am pretty sure that price is impossible to beat.

JR

yeah that is definitely going to be very hard to beat!! haha that sucks

[viziers]

I paid 750 shipped for mine, It just depends how much time you have to find the best deals and if you can wait until that deal comes along.

Not to put SB down but I have read many threads on failures now it may be due to install error but it seems like quite a bit of issues with SB clutches. IMO!



vizi

[chrislane31]

I bought a spare dmfw to send out and was probably going to get the CM FX200 or 300 from Ringer Racing. ;) But my clutch keeps hanging in at 162k miles.

[jimrobbington]

I bought a spare dmfw to send out and was probably going to get the CM FX200 or 300 from Ringer Racing. ;) But my clutch keeps hanging in at 162k miles.

Last time my clutch started slipping was about 10k ago, but I hope to go 2+ next year and if just adjusting my timing by half a degree added enough power to start it slipping again, I figure I better do it. Plus I can tell my wife it has to be replaced for maintenance.

JR

[viziers]

Hey Jim if you can swing it try out the CM FX400 I think you will like it. For me it only chatters if I am lazy with the finessing of the clutch pedal.



vizi

[jimrobbington]

It would be nice, but @ almost $300 more, I can't find enough reasons for it to be worth it.

JR

[jibatnes]

Im running the 034 stage 3+ clutch and LWFW, got the package of their sale a while back for 750 total.
I really happy with it, the downside was that its a really tight fit when installing. I actually had to use a small dremel kinda tool with sandpaper to make it fit. ( yes hard to explain when i dont know what the tools are called). Anyway its my daily drive as well. The only thing i can say that is different is vibration in the car when at low rpms i 4-5-6th gear and accelerating. Really happy with it :) good luck on finding your setup :)

[BoSNiaN]

What about those of us with stock engines? Who makes the best OEM-like clutch and is it better/cheaper than OEM or should I stick with my dealership? [:|]

[jimrobbington]

What about those of us with stock engines? Who makes the best OEM-like clutch and is it better/cheaper than OEM or should I stick with my dealership? [:|]

I bet oem would be more expensive than aftermarket. But the stock clutch typically has incredible longevity, especially for what we do to these cars.

JR

[DRAKLORE]

Ecs offers a(n) Lltek oem like clutch. It's a little more rugged than OEM and quite a bit cheaper. Prob fine if your <stage2...

[DRAKLORE]

But that clutch is still more than a vast stg3... And remember vast also offers the stage1 and 2 for roughly 100$ and 50$ cheaper respectively... It's a no brainer :-D

[bman005]

But that clutch is still more than a vast stg3... And remember vast also offers the stage1 and 2 for roughly 100$ and 50$ cheaper respectively... It's a no brainer :-D

Not a bad idea, I may do that also in the spring since I got with about 100k on it already

[BoSNiaN]

Ecs offers a(n) Lltek oem like clutch. It's a little more rugged than OEM and quite a bit cheaper. Prob fine if your <stage2...

Link or who sells it? Can't find any info on an Audi specific one....As for Vast, is this (https://vastperformance.com/index.php/products/audi/audi-b7-a4-2005-5-2008/drivetrain/vast-b7-a4-stage-1-clutch-kit.html) the one you guys are talking about? $400 seems cheap, does it included everything needed for the install and how do you think it would compare to OEM parts as I am not even stage 1 and don't plan on being?

[Giantsfan10]

my flywheel doesn't seem to be in good condition at 50k miles. it has some play vertically and its not as tight as it should be rotating it. what about everyone else who got new clutches? was your dmfw okay?

[Otter11]

I am at 161k on my stock clutch and I need to get one soon. Very valuable intel.

[pkny]

Does the b7 have the Valeo SMF conversions like they do with the B6's?

[DRAKLORE]

My flywheel looked great at 90k

[THECOUNT]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say thanks to all my cluth guys & anyone who has any questions about the clutch setups all stages. Drake gave out the info in post 18.
Single mass steel flywheels are avlb & actually less expensive then the oem ones. You can always have the oem resurfaced also, and balancing is always prefered...

[BoSNiaN]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say thanks to all my cluth guys & anyone who has any questions about the clutch setups all stages. Drake gave out the info in post 18.
Single mass steel flywheels are avlb & actually less expensive then the oem ones. You can always have the oem resurfaced also, and balancing is always prefered...

If I were to resurface my OEM one, which is the MUCH cheaper route from what I understand, will I need to replace any other parts? Won't that be no where as good as replacing the entire assembly?

[M-Hood]

If I were to resurface my OEM one, which is the MUCH cheaper route from what I understand, will I need to replace any other parts? Won't that be no where as good as replacing the entire assembly?

You will need to inspect your stock flywheel before having it resurfaced, you need to check to see how much play there is with the section that rotates. If the spring inside gets too soft there will be too much play and you will want to replace it before it fails.

[jimrobbington]

Well, it's done. I ordered the Vast stage 3 clutch. It should be arriving this week. Under $500 shipped with their Christmas sale. Couldn't pass that up. Got scheduled to have it installed second day of 2012. It sucks to have to throw down this much on maintenance, but at least its a chance to upgrade for less than oem.

JR

[DRAKLORE]

Come on Jim- cant wait for "Shane's 20$ DIY clutch replacement walk through reference"

Lol I am certain you will be very happy with your results. Especially for the money

[BoSNiaN]

Come on Jim- cant wait for "Shane's 20$ DIY clutch replacement walk through reference"

Maybe he can't, but I certainly can [:D]

[jimrobbington]

There are some things I trust myself to do, then there are other things I would rather be warranteed, and guaranteed no matter the cost. Some things just aren't worth the hassle.

Can I swap out my own test pipe? You betcha! Do I ever want to do it again? Not in a million years. I will pay to have that done for me. No thank you. I will steer clear of anything that makes me hate my car.

JR

[m4ttt0]

I was on the Vast website trying to see the trq limits of each stage, does anyone have that info? im at 105K miles and ill need a new clutch soon.

[BoSNiaN]

I will steer clear of anything that makes me hate my car.

Totally agree. Anything that really can cause major damage, I'd rather take to a shop and let them pay if they break it...

[ericpaulyoung]

Shane - did you install it yourself?
- eric

[jimrobbington]

I do believe he did. I believe he made one of his diys for it, where he mentions he did it, takes one picture, and says ask questions.

JR

[jimrobbington]

Jk shane.

JR

[ericpaulyoung]

That is pretty awesome. I got the VAST Stage II clutch and their 19 pound single mass flywheel on the way, so I am thinking over my options. I don't think I will be pulling it off myself, and will just pay the $650 in labor for the piece of mind. I also have a custom 034 made high flow CAT with an S3 flange mated to it sitting in my garage, so all I need is 034 to fabricate up the new motor mount for the S3 k04, and about a weekend and a six pack to get most of the setup rocking. I am about 2.5 hours away from the nearest tuner (APR in Portland), so I am going to run stock injectors and 2+ file until I get a chance to take a day off to drive up and get my car flashed. I really wish there was a quality tuner out there that had a kit to flash your car at home with files they sent you. I thought GIAC had a flash loader for this, but they don't show any application for the b7 a4 with a k04 http://www.giacusa.com/programs.php?mpid=494. If anybody knows a tuner that will sell you their tunes to flash at home I would love to know. I have been talking to VAST the last two days about my clutch options, and starting to really like that shop, so maybe I can see if there is someone close that they can have me flashed.
- Eric

[jimrobbington]

As far as I know, Vast works just that way with their tuning. Given you have a vag com, and a laptop, I believe they email you files, and you load them yourself.

JR

[ericpaulyoung]

You mean I do t have to take a day off every time I adjust my tune? It feels like Christmas is early
Eric

[drumnjuny]

As far as I know, Vast works just that way with their tuning. Given you have a vag com, and a laptop, I believe they email you files, and you load them yourself.

JR

wow, that is super convenient!!

[viziers]

As far as I know, Vast works just that way with their tuning. Given you have a vag com, and a laptop, I believe they email you files, and you load them yourself.

JR


What you do is they tell you there is a revision so you then plug in the OBD flash tool then vpn into vast then log into the flash tool application which is connected to APR's server (affiliated) locate your file then upload it to your car and your done. They say to make sure you have a battery charger connected to your battery everytime you upload a new revision.



vizi

[DRAKLORE]

Yes I was tuned by vast in the Convienence of my own driveway.
That's the biggest selling point for vast for someone like me cause I move frequently and I essentially take my tuner with me.
Also freeing you up from paying excessive labor on reflashes and shop time/travel

[drumnjuny]

Yes I was tuned by vast in the Convienence of my own driveway.
That's the biggest selling point for vast for someone like me cause I move frequently and I essentially take my tuner with me.
Also freeing you up from paying excessive labor on reflashes and shop time/travel

yeah that's a huge selling point... pretty cool! i'm worried that i'm gonna pay for a custom altitude tune and then move to sea level and have to pay for a new tune lol

[ericpaulyoung]

Yes I was tuned by vast in the Convienence of my own driveway.
That's the biggest selling point for vast for someone like me cause I move frequently and I essentially take my tuner with me.
Also freeing you up from paying excessive labor on reflashes and shop time/travel

This is straight up the future. Can you imagine if Microsoft had you drive to Seattle every time there was an update?? ;-) That is basically what all the tuners are having you do now.

Now open up the market to 10 times the cars..., and boom, a whole much bigger market of people willing to pay to use your tune. You know why? Cause each time you add something to your car the optimum tune has changed. So start with a base tune specific to your ride and update each time you put anything substantial on your car so that you maximize whatever it is that you just had installed.

I am pumped! I have been talking to this shop for only 3 days, and they are really great guys. Take the time to explain to you what you are working on, and willing to help you reach whatever goal you have in mind. Plus, no trying to push useless items on you that you don't need. Just my kind of shop.
- Eric

[THECOUNT]

Thank you again guys & thank you Eric, I will have a few more Solid Mass Flywheels next week too.

[jimrobbington]

Just arrived today!

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo109/jimrobbington/2011-12-16171642.jpg

JR

[ericpaulyoung]

Sweet. Get that baby in there and start pumping up the psi! Two questions:
1. When are you getting it installed?
2. Is it weird that I find this better than porn?
- Eric

[jimrobbington]

Sweet. Get that baby in there and start pumping up the psi! Two questions:
1. When are you getting it installed?
2. Is it weird that I find this better than porn?
- Eric

1. Not til January 2nd
2. No.
3. The psi can't (or at least shouldn't) go any higher, but the timing will go back up. I had to turn it down so my clutch wouldn't slip as much.

JR

[hpfpupgrade]

Guys I know its a huge cost over the OEM set up, but when ever you can get rid of the dual mass flywheel... do it. You would't believe how much of a difference it will make.

If anyone wants a deal on South Bend Clutch's, please hit me up with a PM. We have been running their clutches for years with zero issues.

Thanks,

John

[ericpaulyoung]

John - that sounds like a good plan.

Can't wait!!
-Eric

[DRAKLORE]

Just want to update this thread with the follow up thread--Vast-stage-3-clutch-first-impressions (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/464866-Vast-stage-3-clutch-first-impressions)

So far so good on my stage 3, I went out tonight to do a few launches and I was able to get a good spinup through first. I'm having issues with my forge DV dumping all of my
Pressure even though it's got the 30+ spring so I may do like Jeff (vizi) and get the s3 flange and run the OEM revision D.
Keep the follow ups coming guys!