Curious about tuning and engine longevity

[ccssid]

With all the threads pertaining to all the tunes out there, (for 3.0tfsi engine) apr/revo/giac/ and for that matter stasis, irrespective of 1/4 of a mile times, just how safe are the tunes on an engine and do they effect the longevity of an engine in any way.

[redrocker55]

I have 30,000 miles on my APR tune...no issues. Engine is wearing better than average.

[apexit1]

Obviously at this point APR has the largest base and we've heard nothing bad that wasn't resolved in a very timely manner. Revo and GIAC are just starting up and if the power coming from revo is consistent we have to wait and see how the engine behaves with the added power. I have about 8k on my apr tune with pulley, picked it up mid july.

[UmIsThisThingOn]

I had APR. It killed my ECU w/in 3K miles. Bad installer - YMMV

[Wilbur]

I had APR. It killed my ECU w/in 3K miles. Bad installer - YMMV

How about clutches? I've read here that all this increased HP induces slip.

[apexit1]

I had APR. It killed my ECU w/in 3K miles. Bad installer - YMMV

Can you elaborate? How was it handled?

[helix139]

How about clutches? I've read here that all this increased HP induces slip.

HP does not cause clutch slip. Torque does. You're looking at a gain over stock torque peak of about 18ft-lbs at the hub on 93 on the APR tune, probably closer to something like 22ft-lbs at the crank right around 4000 RPMs, and you'll have a value above stock peak (peaking at 18awtq) from around 3000rpms until about 5600rpm.

The real problem is the stock disc combined with the pressure plate. Even at stock power levels, repeated launching of the car is going to heat up the disc enough that it can slip and result in a glazed flywheel. It will be exacerbated and slightly accelerated if you put the car into that 3000-5600rpm range and launch it frequently.

[NWS4Guy]

Can you elaborate? How was it handled?

+2 I don't think I heard you ever say anything about this when it happened?

[tomh009]

HP does not cause clutch slip. Torque does.

Torque also causes power. [:D] (Essentially power = torque x rpm.)

[helix139]

Torque also causes power. [:D] (Essentially power = torque x rpm.)

Yes, but more power in and of itself is not going to cause slippage. The concern really is torque delta when the clutch is not fully engaged. Launches are the hardest on the clutch as you are essentially hitting the clutch with the full inertia of the engine while the clutch has the drag of the drivetrain and weight of the car as factors preventing its acceleration. 1-2 and 2-3 powershifts can also produce significant delta, but just adding some extra power up at the top of the RPM range while not increasing the peak torque of the engine or the RPM range where that peak torque is available (i.e. gains up at the top of the RPM range) is not going to have a significant effect on clutch wear.

[Wilbur]

Yes, but more power in and of itself is not going to cause slippage. The concern really is torque delta when the clutch is not fully engaged. Launches are the hardest on the clutch as you are essentially hitting the clutch with the full inertia of the engine while the clutch has the drag of the drivetrain and weight of the car as factors preventing its acceleration. 1-2 and 2-3 powershifts can also produce significant delta, but just adding some extra power up at the top of the RPM range while not increasing the peak torque of the engine or the RPM range where that peak torque is available (i.e. gains up at the top of the RPM range) is not going to have a significant effect on clutch wear.

If I avoid 3-5000 rpm clutch dumps (just drive normally) am I going to run into slip problems due to increased TQ?

[prowl647]

Do any of the tunes increase mpg? I have evo and saw an increase in both mpg and hp with a tune

[helix139]

If I avoid 3-5000 rpm clutch dumps (just drive normally) am I going to run into slip problems due to increased TQ?

Doubtful. The torque increase isn't that huge. If you're not launching and not powershifting in the low gears you'll likely be fine.

[Blake P]

I hope you don't mind, but I changed the subject of the thread to be a bit more descriptive.

[steve0827]

subbed to hear more about the APR tune killing your ECU

[helix139]

Do any of the tunes increase mpg? I have evo and saw an increase in both mpg and hp with a tune

Several APR users have reported a small increase in mpg when they aren't driving hard.

[Vogz]

Unless a tune is causing the engine to knock, you're not going to see any longevity issues with it. The power increase even on the stage 2 APR tune with a pulley on 100 octane gas is still VERY modest in the tuning world. You will usually see modern stock engines handle near double the factory output before things start to break.

With regard to "box" tunes, even the most "aggressive" ones are still very conservative to account in differences from car to car and conditions.

[FatalBert]

You can slip and glaze your clutch with stock power if you don't engage or launch properly.

The increase in torque due to the tune is not going to drastically change the chances of that occurring any more than the way you engage the clutch or launch the car.

[Seinsmeld13]

my GTI has 192,000 km with DSG tranny. GIAC installed when near new. 30 hp 60 torque increase over stock. I have had zero issues, When GIAC comes out I will be first in line

[UmIsThisThingOn]

To the OP, I'd say that overall, ECU tunes aren't really an issue for reliability, it's more of how you drive it and whatnot. If you beat on anything long enough, stuffs gonna break.


Can you elaborate? How was it handled?


+2 I don't think I heard you ever say anything about this when it happened?

I made a thread but didn't finish with the resolution.

Long story, short: ECU upgrade @5,900 miles, died @ 8,900 or just over 9K. Had it towed in to dealership, they found the scratches and sawed ecu frame from the install, so not covered under warranty. New ECU flown in from DE and then there were issues with the steering module not working. They called in a tech from Audi HQ (10 mins away) and they fixed it. I think the bill was just north of $1,700.

This was two weeks before my wedding, so I didn't have the time or patience to deal with the installer or APR. It really sucked coming back down the mountain in PA in a driving rain storm in a shitty rental and no Quattro! I kinda just chalked the whole thing up to 'I paid my moneys, I took my chances' and left it @ that. I ended up going the hardware upgrade route and I enjoy the car as there's a lil more oomph than stock [;)]

[NWS4Guy]

I'd still follow up with APR.

[Wilbur]

To the OP, I'd say that overall, ECU tunes aren't really an issue for reliability, it's more of how you drive it and whatnot. If you beat on anything long enough, stuffs gonna break.





I made a thread but didn't finish with the resolution.

Long story, short: ECU upgrade @5,900 miles, died @ 8,900 or just over 9K. Had it towed in to dealership, they found the scratches and sawed ecu frame from the install, so not covered under warranty. New ECU flown in from DE and then there were issues with the steering module not working. They called in a tech from Audi HQ (10 mins away) and they fixed it. I think the bill was just north of $1,700.

This was two weeks before my wedding, so I didn't have the time or patience to deal with the installer or APR. It really sucked coming back down the mountain in PA in a driving rain storm in a shitty rental and no Quattro! I kinda just chalked the whole thing up to 'I paid my moneys, I took my chances' and left it @ that. I ended up going the hardware upgrade route and I enjoy the car as there's a lil more oomph than stock [;)]

Why dont you guys use Stasis? At least there is some sort of warranty or acknowlegement of association.

[BLACKS4-10]

A lot of people here want the switchable upgraded tunes that APR offers since Stasis tune is only 91 program.
Why dont you guys use Stasis? At least there is some sort of warranty or acknowlegement of association.

[CONTROL TWO]

18,000 miles on APR stage II with no issues, clutch related or other (i do not do standing launches, though)

[Wilbur]

A lot of people here want the switchable upgraded tunes that APR offers since Stasis tune is only 91 program.


Ah, thanks. 91 octane?

[Zed 2.0]

To the OP, I'd say that overall, ECU tunes aren't really an issue for reliability, it's more of how you drive it and whatnot. If you beat on anything long enough, stuffs gonna break.





I made a thread but didn't finish with the resolution.

Long story, short: ECU upgrade @5,900 miles, died @ 8,900 or just over 9K. Had it towed in to dealership, they found the scratches and sawed ecu frame from the install, so not covered under warranty. New ECU flown in from DE and then there were issues with the steering module not working. They called in a tech from Audi HQ (10 mins away) and they fixed it. I think the bill was just north of $1,700.

This was two weeks before my wedding, so I didn't have the time or patience to deal with the installer or APR. It really sucked coming back down the mountain in PA in a driving rain storm in a shitty rental and no Quattro! I kinda just chalked the whole thing up to 'I paid my moneys, I took my chances' and left it @ that. I ended up going the hardware upgrade route and I enjoy the car as there's a lil more oomph than stock [;)]

Sorry to hear this. I'd be completely outraged if that happened to my car. Did you get any diagnosis of the fault? As I understand it, the local shop just pulls the ECU box and sends it out, so they wouldn't be at fault for any internal damage to the ECU.

[BLACKS4-10]

yep
Ah, thanks. 91 octane?

[NWS4Guy]

Why dont you guys use Stasis? At least there is some sort of warranty or acknowlegement of association.

If you don't think Audi would make a car with Stasis in a similar situation switch to a stock ECU for diagnosis, you are wrong. Who would pay for the new ECU for testing/proving this?

[ilspazzaneve]

How much of that was ECU...? Just curious.

You should send back to APR since they may have something to look into for all of us. I'm sure they will make it worth your while, and all of us with APR tunes will definitely appreciate knowing what the cause was.


To the OP, I'd say that overall, ECU tunes aren't really an issue for reliability, it's more of how you drive it and whatnot. If you beat on anything long enough, stuffs gonna break.

I made a thread but didn't finish with the resolution.

Long story, short: ECU upgrade @5,900 miles, died @ 8,900 or just over 9K. Had it towed in to dealership, they found the scratches and sawed ecu frame from the install, so not covered under warranty. New ECU flown in from DE and then there were issues with the steering module not working. They called in a tech from Audi HQ (10 mins away) and they fixed it. I think the bill was just north of $1,700.

This was two weeks before my wedding, so I didn't have the time or patience to deal with the installer or APR. It really sucked coming back down the mountain in PA in a driving rain storm in a shitty rental and no Quattro! I kinda just chalked the whole thing up to 'I paid my moneys, I took my chances' and left it @ that. I ended up going the hardware upgrade route and I enjoy the car as there's a lil more oomph than stock [;)]

[FatalBert]

I'd still follow up with APR.

Yea I thought APR provides a warranty on the ECU itself.

Quote from their site "All APR ECU Upgrades include a limited lifetime warranty against defects in the software and to provide free updates and reflashes as they become available. Installation may be additional and is not included in the warranty."

Sounds to me that the dealer determination would fall under a "defect in the software" no? Or did they flat out say your ECU is physically dead (which would be of even more concern)?

Now its another thing getting APR to actually cover the cost of the ECU replacement since it is a "limited" warranty which who knows what that means...

[Wilbur]

If you don't think Audi would make a car with Stasis in a similar situation switch to a stock ECU for diagnosis, you are wrong. Who would pay for the new ECU for testing/proving this?

i don't understand what you are trying to say.

[NWS4Guy]

i don't understand what you are trying to say.

You are insinuating that having the Stasis tune would have been a boon here due to the warranty issue. What happens when Audi says "we want a stock ECU as we think the tune fried this one" and Stasis says, well we disagree, if Audi or the customer buys a stock ECU and you can prove that works, we will look into this further. I bring this up because this exact type of situation HAS occurred with a VW and the owner I know. Audi says it's Stasis, Stasis says no it's not, it's something else, Audi will not do any further diagnosis on the car till it's returned to stock, and the customer is left carless during this argument.