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View Full Version : DBC+vr6 TB, were you able to do TB alignment?



ricekikr
10-14-2011, 09:55 AM
Who has vr6 or AHA throttle on their 1.8t (DBC)? Did you get it to do TBA? I have an AHA tb and can't get it to do a TBA, always gets an error. Plus a code for throttle basic settings.

It idles and starts fine, just can't get it to complete the TBA.

Crispy222
10-14-2011, 07:02 PM
I have an AHA. I havn't tried. Just fired right up the first time. There was a lot of key on time with the motor off. Some say that is enough for a TBA. I think I am having problems with the TPS now though. Going to pull it and clean it out this weekend.

ricekikr
10-14-2011, 09:09 PM
Mine also started and idled fine. Just wondering if I can get rid of the "throttle basic setting" code.

ZimbutheMonkey
10-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Having exactly the same issue. Look on my build thread for a more detailed explanation. What's weird though is that I had TB issues with my old elim setup months before this. If I went WOT it would give me the 'throttle control valve' fault. Long story short, I swapped my old stock TB in and had the same issue. Only now, it wouldn't adapt and it would only show a max 74 deg of throttle plate angle instead of 86 deg.

But, this is where it gets really weird. Last night I took the VR6 TB and just hooked the plug into it to see if it would run an adaptation. It did, no problem. Then, on top of that, the stock TB I had in decided that it was going to adapt as well (I had been getting the error code like you). Then when I actually get the fucking VR6 one installed, it starts and ides fine. Ran like a champ for my 10 min test drive. Then I get back, stop and the idle starts surging from 1000-1500 RPM and I start all over with this whole error BS.

On top of that, my stereo stopped working and I can't get the Eurodyne software to recognize and read my ECU. If anyone has any theories on what the fuck is going on, now is a good time. Otherwise I'm getting a young priest and an old priest, then I'm smearing myself in paste and doing a voodoo dance around my car.

ricekikr
10-15-2011, 12:48 AM
Lol.

I tried reducing the voltage by 10% to .01% (using piggyback), and tried gradual reduction of voltage etc etc. Still couldn't get it to adapt. But once I plug in the stock TB it adapts easily. The more annoying part is, my stock TB is actually busted.

Mine idles like a champ. Actually mine works perfectly, almost. I just want to delete the code because it might be the reason I have some hesitation at very low throttle input. Prior to the throttle install (and going mafless [maf simulation], rods, valve and springs, 870cc injectors [from 630cc], 5857 [from 50trim]) it drove almost like stock. So I'm going thru the changes one by one.

And I can't re-install stock TB, to diagnose, because I ported the intake and re-tapped for the larger throttle.

ZimbutheMonkey
10-15-2011, 08:33 AM
Enough to make you want to tear your hair out, isn't it? Just like you said though, you got an old busted throttle body to adapt when it wasn't mounted. In my case, the VR6 one adapted when it wasn't mounted, but wouldn't once it was mounted.

That's what's leading me wonder if it's an electrical glitch somewhere else. The only other thing I can see that was different (now that I actually got some sleep lol) was that when I did the test adapatation on the VR6 TB, it didn't have it's throttle plate installed as I had removed it to see where I needed to port the stock manifold. Maybe try pulling the throttle plate and see what happens.

Also, you can try removing the cover on the side of the TB and seeing what the idle control valve is doing. I've actually figured out how that whole thing works. Under the side cover there's a little set of contacts right under where the coil spring sits. When the butterfly valve closes, it closes that set of contacts and the TB goes into idle mode. From there, the unit switches potentiometers (there are two, one for idle and one for non-idle) and the little electric motor kind of flips back and forth, juggling the gear assembly to keep the car idling.

When I go to do the adaptation, the little motor on the gear assembly is energized. It just doesn't want to move the throttle plate. Also, when I re-installed the throttle plate, it was sticking a hair in the closed position. Not much, but maybe it's enough to throw the adaption mechanism for a loop. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but it's about all I have at the moment.

PS: what's the max throttle plate angle that the ECU will read with your unit not doing it's adaptation routine?

ricekikr
10-15-2011, 10:28 AM
From there, the unit switches potentiometers (there are two, one for idle and one for non-idle) and the little electric motor kind of flips back and forth, juggling the gear assembly to keep the car idling.

I'm leaning toward this.

I have a bnew throttle, but could be busted. Might difference in voltage (or resistance). Coz using the stock throttle, I tried to reduce tps voltage by 2.5% (scale is inverted higher voltage at lower input) all thru the whole scale, and it would also fail adapting. Mine idles perfectly, so I figure the throttle motor is working fine.

I'm actually just curious if all vr6 / aha tb upgrades have this problem. The only reason I went with an AHA was because mine was busted and there was nothing posted about this issue. And I got mine cheap from a Audi/VW dealer.

mines at 85.9% same as stock. @wot I have zero issues (apart from timing pull), but at very low throttle I get misfires (again could probably be caused by some other thing).

Some trivia, at WOT "MY" ecu doesn't make any significant change (or any change at all) if it sees 83% or 85% or 87% throttle.

Crispy222
10-15-2011, 11:20 AM
Yeah, I did as much research as I could before buying one used on Ebay actually. I didn't see many people doing it, but I also didn't find anyone with any problems with it. I need to get my friends vagcom or finally buy one and do some testing on my setup. I've having the same symptoms as you are. My starts after ~10-12 sec of cranking. Its stumbles to on a cold start. Its a little better when warm. I have a WB and it idles rich, but runs completely normal at half throttle and above. It hesitates when below half throttle/under little load/lower rpms<2500. When coming off throttle is runs rich enough to back fire out the rear. After that, it will correct the mix and the WB will show full lean (21.9 AFR). This is only been happened of recent. Actually on the way home from H2O this year is when it all started. I thought it was just plugs or a coil. I've put almost 5k miles on the brand new 2L AEB bottom end built to the hilt, and now this happens. I've replaced plugs, checked gaps, checked the coilpack wiring harness, swapped coils around, checked the ICM, replaced the primary O2 sensor. Everything has helped a bit, but its still not the same as the first 5k miles. Of recent, it has started in 4-6secs of cranking, but it used to start on first crank. The tach comes up when cranking so it isn't the crank position sensor. It pretty much is pointing to the TB at this point. HELP!


What did you pay the dealer for your new one?

ZimbutheMonkey
10-15-2011, 01:38 PM
Soooooo, the plot thickens. Remember the throttle plate comment I made earlier. Well thank serendipity for me having my throttle plate out when I did the test adaptation for the VR6. Grabbed my old stock TB (the one I was just using) pulled the throttle plate, plugged it in (without removing the VR6 TB) and bang, adaptation. Plugged it back to the VR6 without turning the key off, error. Plugged the stoker back in, adaption again, no issue.

Now, this is where I got sneaky. I adapted the stock TB, left the pigtail in, shut the car off and took out the key. Then sneaky sneaky me, I unplugged the pigtail from the stock TB and plugged it into the VR6 one. Voila, it's adapted. Took it out for a bunch of 1st and 2nd gear pulls to see if it would give me an error, still good. Turned the car on and off, still good.

This narrows it to two places 1) There's a throttle plate issue 2) The pigtail harness has a crack/short somewhere, but if I move it to another orientation (pulling it up to test the other throttle body that's not installed) the break contacts again and does an adaptation.

Also, regarding the idle, I think I just need to re-adjust my alpha_N values. It's probably that the car is seeing too much air at idle and keeps adding fuel to lean it out, but the revs just keep raising and it gets caught in a loop until it hits 1500 RPM, which I'm assming is the limit of the idle motor's 'authority' and then begins the cycle again

ricekikr
10-15-2011, 08:38 PM
My starts after ~10-12 sec of cranking. Its stumbles to on a cold start. Its a little better when warm. I have a WB and it idles rich, but runs completely normal at half throttle and above. It hesitates when below half throttle/under little load/lower rpms<2500. When coming off throttle is runs rich enough to back fire out the rear. After that, it will correct the mix and the WB will show full lean (21.9 AFR). This is only been happened of recent.


Mine also drives shitty when cold. But I was associating that to the mafless simulation I'm doing (aeb + piggyback to simulate maf). My AFRs are near 14.7. But the weird thing is, when cold, the AFRs are actually leaner (I'm under the impression that it should be richer til warmed up)

I also don't have my stock o2 sensors connected. So no o2 corrections from the ECU.


Now, this is where I got sneaky. I adapted the stock TB, left the pigtail in, shut the car off and took out the key. Then sneaky sneaky me, I unplugged the pigtail from the stock TB and plugged it into the VR6 one. Voila, it's adapted. Took it out for a bunch of 1st and 2nd gear pulls to see if it would give me an error, still good. Turned the car on and off, still good.

I could also get the code to go away for awhile, but it'd still comeback after a few hours/drives.

I'd erase codes, tb code would stay, then do an adaptation, get an adaptation error, then erase codes, code would disappear (normally if I just clear codes without doing an adaptation, code wouldn't get erased)



This narrows it to two places 1) There's a throttle plate issue 2) The pigtail harness has a crack/short somewhere, but if I move it to another orientation (pulling it up to test the other throttle body that's not installed) the break contacts again and does an adaptation.
My stocker adapts everytime, so don't think mine's a wiring issue.



Also, regarding the idle, I think I just need to re-adjust my alpha_N values. It's probably that the car is seeing too much air at idle and keeps adding fuel to lean it out, but the revs just keep raising and it gets caught in a loop until it hits 1500 RPM, which I'm assming is the limit of the idle motor's 'authority' and then begins the cycle again

The only time I saw this happen when it was leaner than 17afr at idle (gauge only goes to 17afr), just richened it up to around 14.7, and got rock solid idle.

ZimbutheMonkey
10-15-2011, 09:53 PM
Regarding the crappy running when cold. Mine does it too. Leans out under light throttle and then it corrects itself if I keep the same position on the throttle (just touching it). Probably still in closed loop operation at that point so the ECU can still control things from the narrowband O2 sensor. It goes richer (13:1 or so) if I tip-in the throttle and keep the throttle over say, 15-20 degrees.

Now, regarding my adaptation. I went for a 30 min ride in town where I had a combination of normal driving and wailing on the car. Idle's still at 1500, but the car goes like a bat out of hell otherwise. What's interesting is that I can boost over 23 PSI sustained without misfiring with the new TB and porting job.

One caveat on that though, my throttle body finally completely shit the bed shortly after my coil pack changeover. So I can't attribute the ability to boost higher being due only to the VR6 TB. However, for the brief times that the stock TB was working after the coil pack changeover, I still seem to recall it breaking up over 21 PSI.

So I don't know, seems entirely possible that I was breaking up over 21 PSI because of surge. I have to wonder if the larger TB and porting are allowing the engine to flow enough air through the intake manifold to allow higher boost levels?

ricekikr
10-15-2011, 10:38 PM
Regarding the crappy running when cold. Mine does it too. Leans out under light throttle and then it corrects itself if I keep the same position on the throttle (just touching it). Probably still in closed loop operation at that point so the ECU can still control things from the narrowband O2 sensor. It goes richer (13:1 or so) if I tip-in the throttle and keep the throttle over say, 15-20 degrees.

Exactly what mine does, minus the closed loop, (I'm always open loop).

Forget which turbo you have, but I used to drive all day stock tb+50trim@23psi. And a lot of people have been running more than 25psi with stock tb. With the 5857+aha tb, boosted to 25psi no problem.

ZimbutheMonkey
10-15-2011, 11:19 PM
I'm running a 60-1 with a .48 A/R 4 bolt turbine housing. Funny thing about the 60-1's is that they doesn't seem to really like high pressure ratios. If you look at their compressor maps, they seem to be happiest at 21 or so PSI. I think it's tough to compare straight manifold pressure numbers against a lot of the newer turbos that like high pressure ratios.

From looking at it's compressor map and how my car behaves, I think that the 60-1's respond best to changes that promote better volumetric efficiency, like AEB size ports, larger TB's very free flowing intake/exhaust setups etc... I know that's technically the same for any turbo, but I think that it's more so the case with the 60-1 vis a vis the 50,57,60 trims.

Crispy222
10-16-2011, 03:27 PM
I run a 50-trim, .68A/R on a full AEB motor 2008cc/stock AEB head/AEB intake manifold/AHA throttle body/Unitronic 440 file/oem Bosch O2/no secondary O2/AEB coils&ICM/ NGK BRK7Qs

I'm debating on rewiring the harness again for EV14 injectors and R8 coil packs this winter. Its looking to cost around $500 for everything.