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2stroke
10-13-2011, 09:53 AM
Hi !

I thinking of remove the whole SAI-system ( Secondary Air Injection ) from my car.
Any benefits ?
Any drawbacks ?

[confused] [confused]

rubberband
10-13-2011, 10:01 AM
the bennifits is now you can run piping for a FMIC and lose some crap in teh bay.
the drawbacks are unless you code it out of your ecu or somehow fugure out how to get a resistor to work, you will get a cel.

2stroke
10-13-2011, 10:31 AM
The bennifits is now you can run piping for a FMIC.
The drawbacks are you must code it out of your ecu.
What is FMIC ?
How to code it out of the ECU ?

walky_talky20
10-13-2011, 10:49 AM
Indeed.

Benefits:
-cleaner engine bay
-more clearance for Front Mount InterCooler piping
-easier to service rear coolant flange, etc.
-fixing the SAI properly can be expensive
-stick it to The Man

Drawbacks:
-Constant Check Engine Light
-Killing Extra Squirrels

The SAI system pushes fresh air down the exhaust. This flow is measured by the oxygen sensors. There is *no* measurement of the air pump's resistance or current flow *whatsoever*. Only the FLOW is measured. Therefore, no amount of resistors will prevent the "SAI: Incorrect Flow" code. The CEL will be on regardless. The only way to bypass this is to have your chip-tuner "code out" the check for SAI performance in the software. This will prevent the CEL and may help you pass emissions testing. However, most emissions testing also includes a "visual inspection" where they would actually look for the physical equipment. You would of course fail that test if they are detailed.

2stroke
10-13-2011, 01:50 PM
Indeed.

Benefits:
-fixing the SAI properly can be expensive
-stick it to The Man

Drawbacks:
-Constant Check Engine Light
-Killing Extra Squirrels

Therefore, no amount of resistors will prevent the "SAI: Incorrect Flow" code.
The CEL will be on regardless.
The only way to bypass this is to have your chip-tuner "code out" the check for SAI performance in the software.
This will prevent the CEL and help you pass emissions testing.
Please tell me more about how to do a full delete of the SAI-system so I do not have any CEL light/warning and fault codes.

[:/] Since English is not my spoken language,
please do not use slang-words or abbreviations since they are difficult for me to understand.

What does the highlighted stuff above mean ?? [confused]

redline380
10-13-2011, 02:49 PM
stick it to the man- just means that the secondary air system is stupid and not needed. basically, they shouldnt have put it in the car in the first place.
killing extra squierrels- your exhaust wont be as clean on start up. it will put out a bit more pollutants, thus killing more living animals than if the exhaust was clean. i am getting a good laugh here,
in order for you to delete the sai system and not have a engine light on, you need to send your ecu into a chip tuning place to have them right out the part of code that tells the ecu to check the flow in the exhaust. it might not be worth it if you arent asking to increase performance as well since they usually charge you to upgrade the performance and will write out things like the sai system at the same time

walky_talky20
10-13-2011, 03:04 PM
^Thanks redline.

lol. Those highlights are priceless. 2stroke, your English is so very good, I didn't even think about explaining those. Those 2 items are just jokes about the validity of environmental protection systems and enforcement. Haha. I do apologize for using the slang phrases.

So the ECU will need a software modification to disable the "check" for SAI operation. This very much not necessary unless it is *required* that your CEL be OFF for inspection or something. If your government doesn't care about the CEL, then you don't need to worry about it at all. Just let that light stay on forever. It won't hurt anybody.

If, however, you do need to keep the CEL off for whatever reason, it would usually be done at the same time as a "stage 1" (91 or 93 octane) tune. This would be a software upgrade to increase the boost pressure of the turbo, fuel, timing, etc. It could also possibly disable the SAI if you request that as well. It would be best to talk to a VW/Audi chip-tuner that is in your local area.

SS92
10-13-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned you will also need a plate to block off where the SAI/Combination Valve is removed if you do remove the SAI. I linked to one, but seeing that you live in Sweeden I'm not sure if they ship internationally, so you may need to find an alternative. It's only 12 dollars though.

http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-18t-sai-blockoff-plate-secondary-air-for-18t-p-21646.html

walky_talky20
10-14-2011, 05:59 AM
Don't "need" to buy one. I made my own.

Here's a DIY I wrote up that covers all the various deletes. SAI removal is in post #2:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/442614-*DIY*-B5-1.8T-Vacuum-Check-Valve-SAI-PCV-Delete-amp-Simplification

2stroke
10-14-2011, 09:42 AM
In order for you to delete the SAI system and not have a engine light on,
you need to send your ECU into a chip tuning place to have them right out the part of code that tells the ECU to check the flow in the exhaust.
It might not be worth it if you arent asking to increase performance as well since they usually charge you to upgrade the performance and will write out things like the SAI system at the same time


The ECU will need a software modification to disable the "check" for SAI operation.
This very much not necessary unless it is *required* that your CEL be OFF for inspection or something.
If your government doesn't care about the CEL, then you don't need to worry about it at all.
Just let that light stay on forever. It won't hurt anybody.

If, however, you do need to keep the CEL off for whatever reason.
This would be a software upgrade to increase the boost pressure of the turbo, fuel, timing, etc.
It could also possibly disable the SAI if you request that as well.
It would be best to talk to a VW/Audi chip-tuner that is in your local area.

The Swedish goverment forces all cars to be tested ones a year at a testing center.
They even connect to your cars onboard computer to read the memory and no CEL or fault codes are accepted [o_o]
..Thats why I need to know exactly in detail how to do to not get any problems with the SAI-system delete.

Is it possible to permanently block of the SAI-system signal with a VAG-COM / VCDS ?
Link : http://www.ross-tech.com/

I have spoken to a company over here that are doing remapps/reflash of the ECU box for tuning purposes and they said that they do not block the SAI signal. [:(]

And what about the signal to the N112 valve ?

2stroke
10-15-2011, 09:12 AM
[wrench] ^^^ To The Top ^^^ [wrench]

walky_talky20
10-15-2011, 09:27 AM
Ooh, that sucks. Your inspection is most likely checking "OBDII Readiness". These are a series of system checks that the ECU does on emissions systems (o2 sensor, catalytic converter, Evap, SAI, etc). Generally, all systems will show "FAIL" until the car is driven enough for all the tests to "run", and "PASS". Over here in the US, most state emissions inspections will allow 1 or 2 system failures as long as the rest are ok. Some states only do a "visual inspection" and don't even plug into the car or look at the CEL.

In your case it sounds like there is zero tolerance for even 1 failure. Not good. The only solution, as we said is to have a tuner/reflasher code it out of the ECU software. This permanently sets the SAI "readiness" to "PASS", even though the system check was never done. As a side effect, the CEL stays off as well. However, there is a caveat. Some states are starting to heavily enforce things and will check first that everything passed, THEN they will clear the ECU to make sure everything FAILS. Remember, all systems start out as "FAIL" until some driving time when it sets to "PASS". If the SAI is "coded out", it will not pass that test because it will never show failure. This kind of testing is very new and most everybody has had good luck with coding out the SAI.

As for the tuner you talked to not being able to do it: find a different one. Maybe try a "REVO Technik" dealer. Here's one in Sweden:
AB Alatalo & Co
10 R dhakev
+46 0304-271077

I believe REVO usually only offers the "CEL Delete Feature" on the Stage 2 tunes (stock turbo, but with upgrade injectors from Audi TT 225). Also, I've heard you have to "ask nicely". So give those guys a call and see what they can do for you.

rubberband
10-15-2011, 09:45 AM
so basically yeah, you may want to leave it in... it really does not hamper performance. As others have said, it is for cold startup, after it runs for like 2 minutes, it shuts off. I am in southern california (the smog nazi state) and I had to leave mine in ,or chose to cause it is far easier for me to just swap in a stock ecu and injectors to pass smog then have to change back again after it passes. it is also the reason i chose an aftermarket side mount intercooler versus a front mount. sounds like we have a similar situation...kinda sux always having the thought of the next inspection in the back of your head. You really have to use well planned out mods

2stroke
10-15-2011, 02:24 PM
[:)] My car is an 2000 model year. [:)]

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could in detail explain how to do an SAI-system delete !

[confused] [wrench] [confused] [wrench]




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm still trying to get information about the cars before 2001


FYI:

Tonight I have digged a little deeper into what the Swedish test rules means and requires.

Quote:

Swedish car environmental control:
Bilprovningen new electronic environmental controls, OBD-testing,
conducted since the fall of 2009 on gasoline-powered cars from 2002 and diesel cars from 2004,
with a maximum weight of 7720 pounds ( 3500 Kg. ).

The verification is carried out using a diagnostic tool that plugs into a socket
which is normally located under the dashboard.
The tool reads all registered fault codes that affect your car's emissions.
Bilprovningen equipment is tailored to meet the prescribed standard ISO 15031
and is not always the same as auto repair shops use.

Error codes :
Bilprovningen reject any vehicle that may be called a confirmed fault code.
It includes fault codes P0001 - P0499 and P0650 error code.
In practice this means that the error must be corrected or repaired regardless of
whether the error code has been registered for a long or short time.
A fault code stored in the vehicle's onboard diagnostic system will be registered
as long as the error has not been addressed,
and then extinguished by using a diagnostic instrument.

The remark: "Onboard Diagnostic System, connection / connection can not be done"
The remark "Onboard Diagnostic System, connection / connection can not be done" means that our equipment does not get a standard reply from the vehicle resulting in the above note.
The vehicle should then be under the regulation must be rejected.

MIDNITEAUDI
10-15-2011, 02:34 PM
It can turn into a real headache it you fail emissions. I've removed mine and there isn't any difference other than the cel. I do like sticking it to the man though, tell me what I have to have on my car... Please...

2stroke
10-16-2011, 11:25 AM
Here's a DIY I wrote up that covers all the various deletes.
SAI removal is in post #2:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/442614-*DIY*-B5-1.8T-Vacuum-Check-Valve-SAI-PCV-Delete-amp-Simplification

[up] Great DIY walky_talky20 [up]

...But, It is not the mechanical part of the SAI-system delete that is my problem...
The problem for me is how to delete and/or block of the signals from the sensors
and the SAI pump itself so I not get fault codes and CEL-light from the CPU !

All help are greatly appreciated ! [wrench] [wrench]


.

CamrideA4
10-16-2011, 02:08 PM
Tuners charge to get it done because from what I've been told it's a fairly involved and time consuming process. Mark Malone (who is tuning my car) told me that it's more of a pain to remove the SAI from the ECU than it is to do the normal tuning process. I haven't seen any guides online, and from what I understand you'd need more than VAG-COM/VCDS to do it.

walky_talky20
10-16-2011, 05:31 PM
[up] Great DIY walky_talky20 [up]

...But, It is not the mechanical part of the SAI-system delete that is my problem...
The problem for me is how to delete and/or block of the signals from the sensors
and the SAI pump itself so I not get fault codes and CEL-light from the CPU !

All help are greatly appreciated ! [wrench] [wrench]


.

The link to my DIY wasn't to show you how to do it, it was more for my discussion of the CEL and how the SAI system works. Like I said in my DIY, there are NO TRICKS that you can do, yourself, to prevent the CEL. No resistors or bypasses, absolutely nothing. The ONLY way to do it is to modify the hexadecimal data within the ECU software programming. It is very complicated and you need much, much more than VAG-COM to do it. In short, the ECU programming *must* be changed to prevent the CEL for SAI. There is no other way, other than having a working SAI system in place.

There is a forum member on here (k0mpresd) that will modify a stock ECU to code-out the SAI. PM him to talk about it. Being overseas, this probably isn't worth it for you.

Here is a discussion on the actual HEX values that need to be changed:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/345495-how-to-permanently-delete-rear-o2-secondary-air-injection-dtc-s

The entire thing may not be worth it for you. Notice the list of benefits in post #4? None of them make your car faster or handle better or get you more girls. None.

Again, even if it is coded out, some emissions testing is more tricky and will still catch the modified software. Or they can catch you based on the physical equipment being missing. So this is not a guaranteed thing if you have emissions inspections in your area. Good Luck.

sline22
01-09-2012, 04:07 PM
How close is the write up for the 1.8 to the 2.7t? I have bad combi valves and light beeps coming on. I'm exempt from smog where I live so I'd like to remove the system but can't find a DIY for the 2.7 c5 a6