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View Full Version : eliminator or no (mike hood please chime in)



1sikk04
10-02-2011, 02:05 AM
I have a 2001 Audi a4 Quattro and I am thinking about doing a gt2871r eliminator kit is it worth it or should I do a t25 set up? The reason I'd rather do a eliminator is I already have a 3in test pipe and a silicone intake for my k04 set up and also have a tubular style exhaust manifold I could use. I have heard of encounters of good eliminator kits making 325 whp that's all I'd need for it is going to be my daily driver. Also I'm planning a full rebuild probably gonna go ahead and do a 2.0 stroker with cams and springs to match. Also what size cams would be ideal for this setup since I don't want to have to be in high rpms to have power my power band ending around 6600rpms since the turbo falls off around there. I'd really appreciate your opinion thanks for any help

jaychen
10-02-2011, 03:12 AM
If you are going built motor and stroker.. go bigger than a T25. I would atleast run a 3071/6.

Can't help with you the cams but there is no need to stroke it out to 2.0 just to run an eliminator or a full frame T25..GT2871R full frame would be alright on a 2.0 but not a T25 [facepalm]

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 03:50 AM
I meant full frame gt2871 with a t25 flange as my second option

M-Hood
10-02-2011, 07:21 AM
Well if you already have all the parts to run an Elim kit then that might be the better choice vs having to buy all new parts to run the full frame GT2871r. Going 2 liter might limit how much boost you can run on either setup because the larger displacement might cause th turbo to max out sooner while running 20+psi.

If you plan on running 2 liter you might want to think about going T3 exhaust housing with a GT2871r or even a HTA71.

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 02:47 PM
So would I make less power with a stroker and a gt2871r than a 1.8 with rods and springs with a gt2871r? And wat are Ur thoughts on a 20g set up from psi

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 03:04 PM
So would I make less power with a stroker and a gt2871r than a 1.8 with rods and springs with a gt2871r? And wat are Ur thoughts on a 20g set up from psi

Dynamite
10-02-2011, 03:06 PM
you wont make less power with the 2L. it will just spool quicker because of the extra displacement so you will max the flow rate of the turbo out sooner in the rpm range. i.e. you will make the same total power but it will be at a lower rpm. With a 2871then springs wont do much, even with a 1.8 because peak power will still be before 7500rpm. Also remember that the exhaust valves need doing if you are going to rev higher.

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 03:40 PM
I'm not wanting a super high reving car just one with low range and high range power and I am going to do a full rebuild from piston rods valves springs and cams and maybe crank if I stroke it... also wouldn't being stroked help the eliminator since the con of the manifold causes lag but would being stroked counter balance it since it would spool faster idk? Just a thought

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 06:40 PM
I need some opinions?

Seerlah
10-02-2011, 06:48 PM
You need to do some more searching. The general consensus is going 2.0L is pointless if you are not trying to reach at least 400whp (attempting is not the same as reaching). But people also do it where they live on a higher altitude area than others, due to the air being so thin (late spooling). You need to determine your long term goals, and figure which route you want to take from that.

SS92
10-02-2011, 06:53 PM
I've got gt2871r w/ stock style housing. Ebay style fmic, tune from 034, downpipe w/ cat delete, injectors from 034, silicone inlet, and AEM dry cone filter (All this from PO) and I make some pretty decent power. Engine is not built. Pulls pretty damn hard, even when I had boost leaks galore. I haven't dyno'd and dont plan to, but I keep up with most, definately more powa than a K04. It's my DD, the power makes for a fun highway drive every single time. Just my 2 cents... Pretty noob-y but it's how I picked the car up...

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 07:11 PM
I am attempting to put down 350 400whp but I'd like to try to do it with an eliminator since I have everything to do it but inject and the turbo. My setup now is decent but I'm rebuilding my engine cuz I have almost 160k on it and am not wasting my time on a stock rebuild I wanna build it to hold a lot of HP whether I can make it or not. Since the main problem with the eliminator is lag I figured stroking it would compensate for a faster spool up so am I wrong and dumb or could I be on to something ? Don't be shy give me ideas turbo set UPS whatever cam selection this will be my dd so I don't need full race car

Seerlah
10-02-2011, 07:17 PM
You aren't going to see 350-400whp with a GT2871R (full frame or eliminator). But if those numbers are your goal, then go for the 2L build, but look into other turbo options. And since those are your goals, I would look into a T3 flanged setup (unless it is the EFR).

1sikk04
10-02-2011, 07:40 PM
That's a goal but honestly 325 whp would be very pleasing I have heard of an eliminator doing it but idk... so basically stroking with an eliminator wouldn't help ? An eliminator would be much easier since everything I have already upgraded would work with it just need injectors and tune. On another note if I did go bigger like gt30 with a t3 flange id have to do a lot of mods like new test pipe which sucks cuz I already have a 3in that'd bolt up to the eliminator then I'd need new 3in intake hose and a bigger fmic and prolly a bigger maf not to mention the exhaust manifold oh and prolly intake. Just a lot of money I don't got.

jaychen
10-03-2011, 12:56 AM
You dont need a whole new test pipe. You will need a new flange and maybe a flexi-join piece at most.

Just cut of your flange, put a v-band clamp attachment on with new flange for T3.

If its money you 'don't' got.. maybe you should just keep saving and do it right the first time round.

viceprp
10-03-2011, 02:50 AM
You don't need a 2.0 to make 350-400whp.. you can do that with rods and exhaust valves. The eliminator kit will max out around 300whp and only seen a handful of cars above that. You are then in a range of breaking rods, making it worthless to drop in rods for only an elim 71.

Let's say you just want to make 350whp on a nice DD power band. You could do a T25 GT3071 and have slightly later spool of a 71 but make an additional 50hp up top while still keeping a sub 7500 powerband. This setup would choke out compared to a T3 but you wouldn't wouldn't have to deal with the T3 exhaust system.

The new EFR kits are amazing but they are very costly compared to a standard t3.

I would say to save up and keep thinking about your goals. If its a DD then of course the smaller the turbo the less likely of headaches you are likely to have. Look up Flynn's car. He has a T3 GT71 I believe with a built motor (rods, piston, head) and pulls on a M3 with his avant. All while having 3 passengers!

It's not practical to build a 2.0 if your on a budget build. Regardless, if its later on.

1sikk04
10-03-2011, 05:24 AM
You don't need a 2.0 to make 350-400whp.. you can do that with rods and exhaust valves. The eliminator kit will max out around 300whp and only seen a handful of cars above that. You are then in a range of breaking rods, making it worthless to drop in rods for only an elim 71.

Let's say you just want to make 350whp on a nice DD power band. You could do a T25 GT3071 and have slightly later spool of a 71 but make an additional 50hp up top while still keeping a sub 7500 powerband. This setup would choke out compared to a T3 but you wouldn't wouldn't have to deal with the T3 exhaust system.

The new EFR kits are amazing but they are very costly compared to a standard t3.

I would say to save up and keep thinking about your goals. If its a DD then of course the smaller the turbo the less likely of headaches you are likely to have. Look up Flynn's car. He has a T3 GT71 I believe with a built motor (rods, piston, head) and pulls on a M3 with his avant. All while having 3 passengers!

It's not practical to build a 2.0 if your on a budget build. Regardless, if its later on.

Thanks for the ideas ill keep them in mind... to be honest 300whp would make me happy but 350 sounds better... so has anyone ran the 20g setup cuz I kno my friend had one on his dsm and it was super powerful outrun a lot of fast v8 cars

M-Hood
10-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Increasing the displacement will just increase the power in the lower rpms. If you plan on running a 2871r size turbo then you could just run it at a slightly lower boost level to alllow peak hp to still be achieved up near 7k rpm and giving you a much wider power band then if running higher boost on a 1.8 displacement. Larger displacement will also allow you to run a larger exhaust housing which will allow more flow and give you more peak power vs a 1.8 with a smaller exhaust housing.

20G are way out dated, way better turbos on the market now.

BTW I had no problem beating the newer GTO's with a B6 that had a Elim kit making 330whp.

flynnr
10-03-2011, 10:15 AM
didnt 034motorsport squeeze around 350 whp out of a gt2871r last year?

viceprp
10-03-2011, 10:42 AM
If you wanted a cheap, new T25 GT3071 then hit up Rai. They might still gave one that they used to mock up they DP jig. Then get a PSI T25 mani, Rai 3" dp, Meth (help run 25+PSI), Uni 870 tune and a 3" exhaust. Can push easily 330+awhp. Will need rods, FMIC and exhaust valves if you want to run 7500+. But to be honest it would probably choke out before then. Fast car regardless.

EuroDriven
10-03-2011, 10:57 AM
I have a [what I think is] inexpensive used GT3071R setup off my build I am selling. If you want to break the 400+ awhp barrier you will need 3071, 3076, hx35 or higher.

Might be easier to do an engine build now and then upgrade turbo later. It is easier to upgrade your turbo then to re-bore your engine after you slap an expensive setup on there.

But realistically figure out how much you are willing to spend as this will be the determining factor. IMO go with a t3 flange top mount manifold for easy access and t3 is the most common turbo flange. If you want a built head, buy a spare and do it on the side while you are still driving your car, then a quick swap will be no more difficult then a timing belt job.

If you are wanting only 325 awhp as stated in your OP do some research and be sure you aren't going to blow your rods, might be worth it to swap in some cheap IE rods (even better if you can find them used and get them re-balanced). But also if you want to rev that high you may to want your whole rotating assembly balanced together, this means make sure your parts list is final and you wont change anything post balancing.

Some of this might be "over building" but I like to beat the shit out of my cars and drive them like they are supposed to be. If I have a head I put money into to rev to 7000 I am going to rev it to 7000 every day!

1sikk04
10-03-2011, 01:18 PM
Increasing the displacement will just increase the power in the lower rpms. If you plan on running a 2871r size turbo then you could just run it at a slightly lower boost level to alllow peak hp to still be achieved up near 7k rpm and giving you a much wider power band then if running higher boost on a 1.8 displacement. Larger displacement will also allow you to run a larger exhaust housing which will allow more flow and give you more peak power vs a 1.8 with a smaller exhaust housing.

20G are way out dated, way better turbos on the market now.

BTW I had no problem beating the newer GTO's with a B6 that had a Elim kit making 330whp.

Maybe I'm overtaking my goal sounds like I want a good power range around 330 what all was done to your b6 sounds like that's exactly wat I want?

Seerlah
10-03-2011, 01:21 PM
^He owns a B5 with like 630whp last time I remember seeing his dyno sheet. But his setup is far from a suitable DD, depending.

Really, what is your budget? Most of us have dreams of what we want out of cars, but you need to have funds to support those dreams. And it doesn't come cheap.

1sikk04
10-03-2011, 01:24 PM
I have a [what I think is] inexpensive used GT3071R setup off my build I am selling. If you want to break the 400+ awhp barrier you will need 3071, 3076, hx35 or higher.

Might be easier to do an engine build now and then upgrade turbo later. It is easier to upgrade your turbo then to re-bore your engine after you slap an expensive setup on there.

But realistically figure out how much you are willing to spend as this will be the determining factor. IMO go with a t3 flange top mount manifold for easy access and t3 is the most common turbo flange. If you want a built head, buy a spare and do it on the side while you are still driving your car, then a quick swap will be no more difficult then a timing belt job.

If you are wanting only 325 awhp as stated in your OP do some research and be sure you aren't going to blow your rods, might be worth it to swap in some cheap IE rods (even better if you can find them used and get them re-balanced). But also if you want to rev that high you may to want your whole rotating assembly balanced together, this means make sure your parts list is final and you wont change anything post balancing.

Some of this might be "over building" but I like to beat the shit out of my cars and drive them like they are supposed to be. If I have a head I put money into to rev to 7000 I am going to rev it to 7000 every day!

What are you calling inexpensive on the gt3071hta setup? And I like to overbuild also that way I can't question if something will hold

1sikk04
10-03-2011, 01:38 PM
^He owns a B5 with like 630whp last time I remember seeing his dyno sheet. But his setup is far from a suitable DD, depending.

Really, what is your budget? Most of us have dreams of what we want out of cars, but you need to have funds to support those dreams. And it doesn't come cheap.

See the thing is this spring after winter since I need my Quattro for the snow I'm rebuilding my engine rods piston valves springs cams (if I can ever figure out what size) probably do head work since I kno a guy and trying to decide whether to stroke it also I will be needing a staged clutch... then whenever I could recoup funds get the turbo setup. Id also prefer using revo software since it would only cost me 150 to upgrade

M-Hood
10-03-2011, 01:39 PM
Maybe I'm overtaking my goal sounds like I want a good power range around 330 what all was done to your b6 sounds like that's exactly wat I want?

That wasn't my B6, that car was owned by Charlie which goes by the name Audi Skate Snow here on AZ. It is the B6 that I ran in the 12.6's a few years ago. I own a B5 A4 built 2 liter makes about twice that much power and runs in the 10's.

Here is a video of my car from Dubfest about a month ago (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5hsUEx1tIc&feature=related), doing a shake down run to see if I fixed the misfire issue I was having. Spun the tires all of 1st gear and missing 3rd gear, but still ran a 7.8 at 91+ mph. lol


Video of that B6 (http://www.streetfire.net/video/b6-a4-18t-avant-with-gtrs-elim-kit-racing-a-civic_26966.htm) I was talking about that was running the GTRS Elim kit.

Video of me running a different B6 (http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi2ptzero-driving-gerards-b6-a4-18t-with-a-gt28_26970.htm), but this one had a full frame GT2871r with the same Revo tune as the other B6.

viceprp
10-03-2011, 01:41 PM
See the thing is this spring after winter since I need my Quattro for the snow I'm rebuilding my engine rods piston valves springs cams (if I can ever figure out what size) probably do head work since I kno a guy and trying to decide whether to stroke it also I will be needing a staged clutch... then whenever I could recoup funds get the turbo setup. Id also prefer using revo software since it would only cost me 150 to upgrade

Revo? eh .. then stick with the GT2871 then ..

ZimbutheMonkey
10-03-2011, 03:44 PM
Well, since I'm trying to avoid doing my class readings I may as well throw my 2c in. Viceperp is pretty much bang on in saying that you can run a 300-400 WHP setup by doing the rods and exhaust valves. Thing is though, it WILL cost you double of whatever you think it will in order to do things right, trust me on this. Here's a link to my build. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/406175-Do-I-smell-a-60-1-build-(pics)

Now, it's probably won't be quite as involved unless you choose to fabricate everything like I did. No need to, however, I just wanted to see if it could be done. What kills you though, are the "I may as well do it while I'm in there" stuff. Perfect example, getting the valve guides done. I got a free AEB head, but the exhaust valve guides were worn. Guess how easy it is to change those buggers. If you guessed "it's a miserable **** of a job" you're right. And trying to find a competent shop to so it is even more fun.

Anyway, it's stuff like this that will add up. Both time wise and cost wise. If you do decide to do a build, make sure that your car can be down for a month. You really don't want to rush things. Case in point: My $600 turbo f*ckup [:p]

1sikk04
10-04-2011, 01:17 AM
What all would I need to make a gt2871r eliminator make 300whp ? Also they have the upgrade for this eliminator to make it an hta I talked to them and they said they have the turbos already upgraded for sale for same price minus the lines worth it?

M-Hood
10-04-2011, 01:27 AM
What all would I need to make a gt2871r eliminator make 300whp ? Also they have the upgrade for this eliminator to make it an hta I talked to them and they said they have the turbos already upgraded for sale for same price minus the lines worth it?

Some people have already made 300+whp on 93 octane with the GTRS/GT2871r Elim kits, really easy to make over 300whp on unleaded race gas.

Your not going to find anyone selling a HTA version of the Elim turbo. You can get the HTA turbo for $1700 but will need to try and find a used Elim exhaust housing seeing that ATP will not sell it along. Not exactly sure who you meant you talked to about the HTA Elim turbo.

1sikk04
10-04-2011, 01:39 AM
I talked to forced performance they told me 1699 for it maybe they were mistaken ill have to call them I emailed them two nights ago and the just got back to me

M-Hood
10-04-2011, 01:50 AM
I talked to forced performance they told me 1699 for it maybe they were mistaken ill have to call them I emailed them two nights ago and the just got back to me

That is just the price for the HTA with a T25 exhaust housing, only optional exhaust housing FP will offer is a Tial V-band. They wont even sell it with a a T3 4 bolt housing since they are not able to order it that way directly from Garrett.

BTW the HTA also comes with a 3" inlet compressor housing, not the smaller GT28r 2 bolt housing like you find on the Elim kits.

1sikk04
10-04-2011, 11:18 PM
Yea so for a daily driver u think an eliminator would be pleasing? Honestly if I could beat a stock mustang gt i would be happy as hell

M-Hood
10-05-2011, 07:17 AM
The eliminator is a good setup for the street, plenty of power thru out the whole power band and up to 7200 rpms.

1sikk04
10-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Do you have any advice on cams?

ZimbutheMonkey
10-05-2011, 12:21 PM
If I understood my conversations with Pete at IE, I'd say don't bother with anything other than the mild intake cam. Basically, what I gathered was this: If you have significant amount of backpressure in front of the turbine, a longer duration or lift on an exhaust cam is just going to give rise to the possibility of exhaust gas flowing back into the combustion chamber (it's called reversion).

I was told that my GTRS elim (a 2860) with a .64 A/R housing was probably creating too much back pressure to make an exhaust cam worthwhile. A 2871 or larger on the same size housing with the same exhaust turbine (you can't change that with the BB Garretts) is just going to compound the problem. You could go with a T25 flanged GT28, and yes, I know there may be some small differences (if any) in flow capability with a T25 flanged Garrett vs an elim turbine housing, but it's not going to be nearly enough to offset the additional pressure in front of that turbine.

A mild intake cam, however may give some gains though. But I wouldn't worry about that until you get everything running right first. Trust me, you're going to have enough fires to put out with a BT/BAT build. I'd do the cams once you've got everything else figured out.

M-Hood
10-05-2011, 12:32 PM
The IE intake cam with stock exhaust cam would most likely be the best setup for something with the T25 housing, if going with a T3 housing them maybe the mild intake/exhaust cam setup.

1sikk04
10-05-2011, 12:49 PM
I'm doing a rebuild before I change turbos so I'd have to pick a cam I believe I'm going to go with a gt2871r eliminator so no my question would an intake came be ok to run or would it cause problems

ZimbutheMonkey
10-05-2011, 12:53 PM
Mild intake cam alone probably wouldn't hurt anything, it's just a question of what gains do you make for the money spent. In my opinion (and it's just that, an opinion) you'd be better off spending the money on something like a water meth kit. But talk to the guys at IE and see what they have to say.

M-Hood
10-05-2011, 02:26 PM
I'm doing a rebuild before I change turbos so I'd have to pick a cam I believe I'm going to go with a gt2871r eliminator so no my question would an intake came be ok to run or would it cause problems

Cams are pretty easy to swap in, so it isn't really something you have to do when rebuilding the motor or head.

1sikk04
10-05-2011, 02:43 PM
Idk about a water meth kit its for my dd how big of a deal is it? And is rather while I have it apart put the cam in and save money on gaskets

M-Hood
10-05-2011, 05:07 PM
Idk about a water meth kit its for my dd how big of a deal is it? And is rather while I have it apart put the cam in and save money on gaskets

What gaskets would that be? The cams are just under the valve cover.

1sikk04
10-05-2011, 06:12 PM
Ah you are correct I totally forgot..so is a catch can necessary for a bt build

viceprp
10-05-2011, 06:55 PM
Plenty of info out there on this topic. Especially the elim kit.

I would personally kick the cam idea out the door and seriously invest in a wm kit. It can help with you IAT, Oct level or a mixture of both. This will allow advance timing, added boost and all while running pump gas. It's something worth looking into. This could help sneeze out massive HP (30whp+) depending on your base tune (tune, inj, and all supporting mods)

1sikk04
10-05-2011, 07:12 PM
Good to kno I will look into it