DIY for Pulling TIP Tranny??

[Allen3]

Hey guys, I pulled the code P0741 the other day on my 2000 A6 2.7t. I talked with Sam at 517 Trans in NJ and he said that 98% of the time that code is the result of a failed seal in the Torque Converter and requires replacement. WEll i have 120k miles on the car and i'm unsure if the TC has ever been changed so thats not too bad. Well, I have been searching all over the internet for a DIY for dropping the transmission to get at the TC and I havent found anything. Does anyone have a guide for doing this? Im going to be tearing into the car tonight so i would appreciate any helpful tips or pointers that anyone has.

From what I have read, It looks like i should drop the sub-frame, leave the engine in the car and just split the tranny. Any input on this is appreciated. I'm planing on doing this in my poll-barn that does NOT have a car-lift, Is this going to be possible?

Also, Ill be changing the tranny filter and fluid, anything else i should consider while in this deep??

TIA

[superman_006]

Have you checked the fluid level yet? Is the only trans code?

[Allen3]

Have you checked the fluid level yet? Is the only trans code?

I have not checked the fluid, BUT i have noticed a decrease in MPG and also elevated RPM. Why do you ask about the fluid level? I asked the guys at 517, and they said that they gauranteed that a transmission flush would not erase that code.

[redneck truck]

The guys selling you a torque converter and labor told you it wasn't a maintenance issue? If it's bad, are you swapping a 6-speed in, or just replacing the torque converter and waiting for the slushbox to fail? What exactly does that trouble code indicate?

I've got a write-up in the link in my signature for transmission removal and replacement on a 4.2. No telling if it's the same as the 2.7, but I believe the swap is detailed elsewhere as well. check http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tip_To_6spd_Conversion for more on this. Believe they've got some useful pictures too.

[Scotty@Advanced]

I have not checked the fluid, BUT i have noticed a decrease in MPG and also elevated RPM. Why do you ask about the fluid level? I asked the guys at 517, and they said that they gauranteed that a transmission flush would not erase that code.

This is classic torque converter lockup failure, due to a failed seal that allow fluid pressure to put pressure against the lockup clutch. We have a new line of torque converters we have just finished testing on, and are competitively priced against what the other guys offer. Over time the additional heat created by the slipping convert clutch will toast the fluid

To remove the transmission you have to drop (not necessarily remove) the subframe, disconnect the axles, remove the starter, and disconnect the fluid lines, electrical harness and shift cable.

[Allen3]

Thanks Scotty. Also, i should have probably also noted that there are puddles of fluid in my driveway that just started in correspondence to this P0741 CEL Code. (i dismissed the puddles as some miniscual oil leak, but now it makes sense that it is the ATF leaking past the shaft seal in the TqC.)

Are there any other definitive tests that allow me to confirm this suspicion of a bad TqC? Everything points that way, but one cant be too sure before tackling a labor-intensive project.

And If i am reading your post correctly, I do NOT remove the front clip and pull the motor to access this??

How closely does this link (Tranny removed on A8) apply to the C5 A6? http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/auto_transmission/transremovereplace.html

[Scotty@Advanced]

Engine removal is not required, however that does not mean you can't remove the engine/trans as an assembly. It's probably much easier to remove the whole thing if your working without a lift. The A8 is going to be similar except the A8 sub frame is different.

[dave_graham]

hey Scotty, quick question...during pre-purchase inspection, the mechanic noted that transmission fluid was slow leaking onto the exhaust from a seal near the rear axle. is this something rather easy to fix? while I'm at it, should i ensure that the TC gets updated as well?

thanks,

dave

[Scotty@Advanced]

hey Scotty, quick question...during pre-purchase inspection, the mechanic noted that transmission fluid was slow leaking onto the exhaust from a seal near the rear axle. is this something rather easy to fix? while I'm at it, should i ensure that the TC gets updated as well?

thanks,

dave

It's probably the rear output seal, leakage is very common with these. It's gear oil leaking not trans fluid. I'd address it asap as the capacity for the center diff is less than a liter.

[rollerton]

Went through this 3 months ago with our B5 S4, ....I paid a guy to swap the TC, ...just couldn't muster the motivation.
That being said...what bit of involvement I had in the swap, my opinion is to pull the engine and trans together.
There are a few bolts that I seriously, seriously!, do not see a physical way to loosen. You can get to them, but if they're tight...shit. Not even. I got a TC from 517 tans too. Good guys...strange though I still get the TC lockup code randomly/ intermittent. Though I can see the TC clutch operating normally with VCDS.
Just realized recently we have a little gear oil leak too, need to look at that output seal, because it's hitting the exhaust...smells.

[TozoM8]

Like Scotty said, the subframe is different. The sway bar comes out separately. You can leave the starter in place. The 2.7 has an access hole on the bottom of the block facing the trans. You can get the TC bolts out through that hole.

[superman_006]

TC are known for failng on these trannys.... However if your low on fluid it will throw this code also. I would top it off and see it the TC clutch starts working, If you noticed the shifting diffrence from when it stopped working, hopefully you'll notice it working again (if it does). If it starts working I would suggest fixing your leaks and changing the filter/ fluid.


If it doesnt work...... the tranny is much easier to pull than the engine. And Jacking the front up with some jack stands will work. Once you pull the drive shaft for the rear.... its just like any other FWD tranny. You'll need some special tools though, You'll need the 12 spline tool for the inner axle and the big 12 tamper proof socket for the drains. However once you go to fill the tranny... you'll have to level your car out. Maybe two jack stands in the front and the jack on the rear diff may work.

[Allen3]

TC are known for failng on these trannys.... However if your low on fluid it will throw this code also. I would top it off and see it the TC clutch starts working, If you noticed the shifting diffrence from when it stopped working, hopefully you'll notice it working again (if it does). If it starts working I would suggest fixing your leaks and changing the filter/ fluid.


If it doesnt work...... the tranny is much easier to pull than the engine. And Jacking the front up with some jack stands will work. Once you pull the drive shaft for the rear.... its just like any other FWD tranny. You'll need some special tools though, You'll need the 12 spline tool for the inner axle and the big 12 tamper proof socket for the drains. However once you go to fill the tranny... you'll have to level your car out. Maybe two jack stands in the front and the jack on the rear diff may work.

So is there a place that i could actually leak the fluid onto the ground from in the tranny?? I have puddles of fluid that developed recently with the presence of the P0741 Code. They look to be near where the motor and trans meet. They are not far enough back to be by the Rear output shaft. And these puddles arent that small. I woudlnt mind chaning the ATF fluid and filter if it solves the problem, but i would still need to find the reason it leaked out. Where are the major points for leaking ATF fluid?


And by the way, if i proceed with changing the TqC then i will probably pull the motor and leave the trans in the car. Then i will have good access to the TqC and i can address any rear seals on my motor as well. Thoughts??

[TozoM8]

You will need to replace the front seal on the trans. It is in the pump housing. I would also replace the bushing behind it.

[Siricospeed]

You will need to replace the front seal on the trans. It is in the pump housing. I would also replace the bushing behind it.

I've been through the mill on this one! The bushing, when it spins out will hog out the front pump. Necessitating the either replacement of the pump, or the machining of the front pump cover. The pump can be had for around $250.00 new from ZF. The problem is that the transmission needs to be disassembled to accomplish this. What a PITA. Also, the gasket to seal the pump to the housing was not offered by ZF as a separate item. It is part of a rebuild kit. I did find a company called Ericsson Industries in Connecticut that does offer all of the ZF parts as well as aftermarket pieces such as the bushing (in oversized outer dimensions) to fix this common problem.

Best of luck with this! I have been learning the hard way about this issue.

[Allen3]

I've been through the mill on this one! The bushing, when it spins out will hog out the front pump. Necessitating the either replacement of the pump, or the machining of the front pump cover. The pump can be had for around $250.00 new from ZF. The problem is that the transmission needs to be disassembled to accomplish this. What a PITA. Also, the gasket to seal the pump to the housing was not offered by ZF as a separate item. It is part of a rebuild kit. I did find a company called Ericsson Industries in Connecticut that does offer all of the ZF parts as well as aftermarket pieces such as the bushing (in oversized outer dimensions) to fix this common problem.

Best of luck with this! I have been learning the hard way about this issue.

@Sirico..So you're saying i shouldn't replace the front seal and bushing unless i'm going to replace the pump housing as well? I haven't devoted much time to this problem because i've had a car to drive, but hopefully this weekend i get it out and back in. I just want to get the seal from the dealership before the weekend IF i should change it.

Also, I am about 90% of the way done with pulling only the motor without the trans. I am stuck on the lower two Allen bolts in the bell-housing. Can i lift the motor and trans together to remove these bolts? If so what other bolts do i need to loosen to lift the motor/trans a couple inches?? Just the trans mounts and leave the rest connected?

[Allen3]

ANyone??? Still stuck on these 2 Allen bolts at the bottom of the bell housing on the trans.

Does anyone have a procedure to remove an engine on a C5 A6??? Ive watched the video for the B5 S4 a million times but i things are defintely different.

[Siricospeed]

Yes, the engine can be jacked up to remove the two allen bolts. No problem. The seal can be replaced in the front pump, again no problem. If you find that the bushing (on which the torque converter rides) is messed up, or worse yet, stuck to the torque converter, it's all over. New front pump time. Or some expensive machining on the old one!

I really hope this helps. Please let us know how you make out.

[Allen3]

Yes, the engine can be jacked up to remove the two allen bolts. No problem. The seal can be replaced in the front pump, again no problem. If you find that the bushing (on which the torque converter rides) is messed up, or worse yet, stuck to the torque converter, it's all over. New front pump time. Or some expensive machining on the old one!

I really hope this helps. Please let us know how you make out.

Piece of cake!!! HAHA, actually after about 8 hours of real work spread over 2 weeks i got the motor out. Their are some bolts and brackets and stuff that is a pain to get to, but overall its not too bad. Just takes alot of patience!

Here is a picture of the motor out...

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/aallen1983/Audi%20Pictures/IMAG0069.jpg



And here is a picture of the spline looking into the trans...Do you see any cause for concern?

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/aallen1983/Audi%20Pictures/IMAG0070.jpg

And after splitting the two, i dont see how it will be possible to line them up correctly to re-mount the engine. I might pull the trans out completely and mount the two and re-install them as a unit. Any thoughts on this??

[Siricospeed]

The torque converter should be unbolted from the flexplate. Then reinstall the torque converter onto the trans. Be careful here, you need to engage the front pump with the 2 notches cut into the back of the torque converter, Put the converter on, spin, pull out a little, push in, until you have full engagement. Then the bolts can be accessed through the starter hole. (be sure to clock the flexplate and torque converter so that they line up before installing the engine.)

The seal looks as though it should be changed. BTW, there is a thrust bushing behind the seal, Don't forget to reinstall that! (and don't bend it up prying the seal out!) Coat the lip of the new seal with fresh trans oil before installing as well, so it doesn't burn up when you fire it up.

[Allen3]

The torque converter should be unbolted from the flexplate. Then reinstall the torque converter onto the trans. Be careful here, you need to engage the front pump with the 2 notches cut into the back of the torque converter, Put the converter on, spin, pull out a little, push in, until you have full engagement. Then the bolts can be accessed through the starter hole. (be sure to clock the flexplate and torque converter so that they line up before installing the engine.)

The seal looks as though it should be changed. BTW, there is a thrust bushing behind the seal, Don't forget to reinstall that! (and don't bend it up prying the seal out!) Coat the lip of the new seal with fresh trans oil before installing as well, so it doesn't burn up when you fire it up.

Thanks alot! That is very helpful. I am waiting on the new seal in the mail because the dealer didnt have one. Also, should i replace that "thrust washer"? Is it a wear item? I see it more of a spacer piece, but if it deteriorates over time then ill just change it now while its out.

Also, Ive searched a bunch and im getting mixed results on the correct seal for the rear of the transmission. I found one, but it said it was only for a manual trans. Anyone have a part number or the correct name for the seal on the back of the trans that leaks and causes oil to splatter on the exhaust?

[Siricospeed]

No, the spacer or thrust washer, whichever it is does not seem to wear even after 170k miles, mine looked fine. 0734 319 588 Shaft Seal is the part number and description from ZF for the rear output shaft seal.

[Allen3]

Ive got the new seal for the Torque converter to Trans. I will install that this weekend hopefully. Should i pay any attention to the "cross-like" raised metal on the end of the shaft coming from the transmission? It looks like i bent it up when pulling the motor. If i smooth this with a file and clean it up, is that good enough?

[Siricospeed]

Oh, yes flatten and dress that with a file. be sure to clean the filings off of the shaft too.

[Allen3]

Here is the seal...What is the Audi Part number? The ZF part number(0734 319 588) listed doesnt come up on any of my parts websites. The seal i pulled also has the ZF number so i assume its the original.
The only thing i found is the Rear Differential seal part number (016 409 399B), is that the same??

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/aallen1983/Audi%20Pictures/ZFtransSeal.jpg

[Allen3]

Other questions regarding re-installation:
1) Does it matter if i use Audi/VW power steering fluid? (I know generic coolants eat away at the interior piping, is this the same?)

2) Does it matter is I use Audi/VW Gear oil for the rear output shaft?

3) What weight Oil should i use? Ive read Mobile One 90 weight gear oil, is this acceptable?

Thanks!!!!

[Siricospeed]

VW/Audi power steering fluid is Castrol CHF11s for our cars. Pentosin also makes the fluid, but the part number escapes me. The Castrol seems to be more available by me. The rear output shaft is in the main case and has trans fluid on it. The trans oil is supposed to be 75W/90W Mobil 1 should be fine if it comes in that blend. (On the nascar team I worked on, we ran Mobil 1 as most of our fluids with no problems)

[Danik675]

Hi I would like to know what you decided to do or how did it go? I just did mine, sent my tc to 517 tran, installed frankenturbos, changed differential seal, tc to trans seal, front and rear crank seal, deluxe blau parts valve cover seal kit, and some other stuff. Everything went pretty smooth. So far made only 300 miles. It was pretty easy to pull engine with trans.

[Allen3]

Hi I would like to know what you decided to do or how did it go? I just did mine, sent my tc to 517 tran, installed frankenturbos, changed differential seal, tc to trans seal, front and rear crank seal, deluxe blau parts valve cover seal kit, and some other stuff. Everything went pretty smooth. So far made only 300 miles. It was pretty easy to pull engine with trans.

Well to be honest, i lacked alot of motivation while doing this project because i had another car at my disposal. But overall, it took me about 8 hours(spread over 3 weeks) to pull the motor and trans. I pulled them separate and would not recommend that. I put them back in as one piece and it was a piece of cake. The one tip I would give is to leave the trans mounts on the car and loosen the one bolt from the top of the trans mount bracket. With the mounts staying on the car, you get a few more inches which makes it easier to maneuver the motor & trans out easier. I still have to bolt everything back up and put my front clip on, but i shouldnt be too far away from finishing it up. I also changed out the gear oil in my transfer case at the back of the trans. Mine was black as could be. Hopefully tonight after work, i can fill up the car with all new fluids and start it up.

Any suggestions on how to get the new trans fluid thoughout the entire trans fluid cooling system? Right now all the lines are completely empty because i split them from the radiator and inter-cooler. If i start the car and let it idle, will that move fluid? Can i leave the fill plug off the car while its running or does that cause a mess?

[Siricospeed]

The fill plug can be off of the car with it running. I usually fill the pan until a little comes out, start the car for a few moments, then repeat. Then fire it up again and fill it till it leaks out running. Cycle through all gears. Wait for the temp to reach the 40*c and top off.

[Danik675]

Well to be honest, i lacked alot of motivation while doing this project
because i had another car at my disposal. But overall, it took me about 8 hours(spread over 3 weeks) to pull the motor and trans. I pulled them separate and would not recommend that. I put them back in as one piece and it was a piece of cake. The one tip I would give is to leave the trans mounts on the car and loosen the one bolt from the top of the trans mount bracket. With the mounts staying on the car, you get a few more inches which makes it easier to maneuver the motor & trans out easier. I still have to bolt everything back up and put my front clip on, but i shouldnt be too far away from finishing it up. I also changed out the gear oil in my transfer case at the back of the trans. Mine was black as could be. Hopefully tonight after work, i can fill up the car with all new fluids and start it up.

Any suggestions on how to get the new trans fluid thoughout the entire trans fluid cooling system? Right now all the lines are completely empty because i split them from the radiator and inter-cooler. If i start the car and let it idle, will that move fluid? Can i leave the fill plug off the car while its running or does that cause a mess?

http://www.audiction.com/audi-maintenance/audi-01v-tipronic-transmission-fluid-change/
Might be different but this is what i followed

[Allen3]

Thanks for the link. Looks good! Thats the first time i saw that one.
Will I have any issues because my trans system is COMPLETELY empty? Since I pulled the motor and trans separate, all the ATF going to the radiator and intercooler leaked out. I was thinking of just allowing it to idle for a 10 minutes before following the shifting procedure, will that pump the fluid into these air cavities? Am I in any danger of ruining my pump because the fluid fills the lines and then just sucks air from the reservoir? Obviously ill try to keep filling as its running, but just trying to avoid a possible catastrophe.

[Danik675]

You need two people to do it. Raise your car high enough so you can work under, and make sure it's level. Follow that instruction and you'll be fine. I did mine within 15 minutes. Do it early in a morning or in evening when its not hot. I did late in evening about 11 pm and my transmission temperature came up to 35 degrees. If you have to stop the engine make sure to screw fill plug in otherwise pump will dump all the atf. Also my tranny was making strange noises when I was changing from park to drive, but I think it wa because of low in atf. Also I went with blauparts kit, they supply pump filter gasket diy direction and atf, but you'll have to order more of atf. Manual has direction how to do it.

[Danik675]

By the way how did you managed to put the tc tranny and engine together?

[Allen3]

By the way how did you managed to put the tc tranny and engine together?

I pulled the motor separate from the trans, and then pulled the trans. While it was out i put the new TC in and reassembled the motor and trans and reinstalled them as one unit. One thing that helped me on the reinstallion, was not putting the trans mounts in. It gave me a few extra inches which made it easy to line up al the mounts.

Any suggestions on how to do the refilling of the ATF WITHOUT a VAG-Com? (I wont be able to monitor the temparture of the fluid.) How long does it generally take to raise the temperature up to 40' Celsius?

[Danik675]

I would suggest to invest into ross tech vcds-lite $99 and a cable from ebay, with out it I don't know how its possible.

[TozoM8]

Fill it until it overflows. Start the car in P and fill more. When it overflows put it in R for 20 sec........D for 20 sec.......back to R then P and top it off. Put your hand on the pan and when it feels warm (a bit above your body temp) put the plug in and you are done.

[Allen3]

Thanks guys, i started the process this evening.
I have a couple concerns that i am wondering if anyone has answers to.

First of all, there was clicking noise when i moved from P to R with the car running. It sounded like the noise that a manual transmission makes when you try to shift without the clutch fully engaged. I may have the answer for this though. I disconnected the linkage from the transmission at the plate on the drivers side that holds the cable in place. There are slots where the bolts go through the plate that allow for adjustment. I checked these slots after i heard the grinding and it seemed like they were as far back as possible. So i adjusted those but did not start the car again to see if it returned. (ill explain why below)

My second issue is that i only put in 6 quarts (litres?) of ATF. How many more quarts should i anticipate for a completely empty system??? I know its not cheap and im not going to need any extra, so Id rather buy the right amount. Keep in mind that i split the trans and engine so almost every last drop in the Trans oil cooler lines were empty as well. It took all 6 quarts without a problem, so i didnt let the car run any longer.

Third, Should i hear any rotating parts from the trans? I replaced the Torque Converter, and it kinda seems like i can hear it spinning. Is this normal until it fills with fluid? Or should i have a reason to be concerned? Also, could the misaligned shift linkage have anything to do with this?

[Allen3]

Any thoughts?

[awd2ks4]

hey not to thread jack but whats the best way to get the trans out of this 00 a6 fwd automatic? it seems like a real pain. Its on the lift right now so help me out!!

[Siricospeed]

Thanks guys, i started the process this evening.
I have a couple concerns that i am wondering if anyone has answers to.

First of all, there was clicking noise when i moved from P to R with the car running. It sounded like the noise that a manual transmission makes when you try to shift without the clutch fully engaged. I may have the answer for this though. I disconnected the linkage from the transmission at the plate on the drivers side that holds the cable in place. There are slots where the bolts go through the plate that allow for adjustment. I checked these slots after i heard the grinding and it seemed like they were as far back as possible. So i adjusted those but did not start the car again to see if it returned. (ill explain why below)

My second issue is that i only put in 6 quarts (litres?) of ATF. How many more quarts should i anticipate for a completely empty system??? I know its not cheap and im not going to need any extra, so Id rather buy the right amount. Keep in mind that i split the trans and engine so almost every last drop in the Trans oil cooler lines were empty as well. It took all 6 quarts without a problem, so i didnt let the car run any longer.

Third, Should i hear any rotating parts from the trans? I replaced the Torque Converter, and it kinda seems like i can hear it spinning. Is this normal until it fills with fluid? Or should i have a reason to be concerned? Also, could the misaligned shift linkage have anything to do with this?

I can't answer for the misalignment of the cable or noises, as I have not heard any in my transmissions. The capacity of an empty transmission is about 11 quarts based on my experience. I have pulled the pan, valve body and changed the converter. I may have emptied most of the lines and transmission cooler, as it was apart, but I capped it.

Hope this helps.

[Stoliguy]

depending on how long this project is going to take you.... I'm going through your neck of the woods next month and will be taking my VCDS with me... just sayin...

[Allen3]

I can't answer for the misalignment of the cable or noises, as I have not heard any in my transmissions. The capacity of an empty transmission is about 11 quarts based on my experience. I have pulled the pan, valve body and changed the converter. I may have emptied most of the lines and transmission cooler, as it was apart, but I capped it.

Hope this helps.

The dealership told me the capacity was about 9 Litres. I hope they were correct, cus thats what i bought. But luckily NAPA has the Pentosin ATF so i can get more if needed. I think the noises were just from being "between" gears in the trans and causing the grinding. I really hope thats all it was. Assuming the TC i bought is operational, im not sure what else i could have broken.


@Stoliguy...Send me a PM if you have any specific questions. I thought it was easier to align the trans and the TC and the engine outside of the vehicle and i would prob do it that same way again.

[Allen3]

Just an update to answer my own questions with my experience and then im DONE with this long, drawn out process.

The grinding i heard when i was trying to put the car back into Park from Drive, while on jackstands, was caused by the front shafts spinning. I didnt have any wheels on the front which allowed the shafts to spin freely inside the rotors. So when i tried to put the car back into park, it woudlnt because it was still spinning in Reverse.

And the capacity of the Trans is right around 9 liters for my car. I put in about 9.25 and it started flowing out everywhere. I left the motor running and bolted it back up.

After a test drive, it felt very slow! But that was because my APR programming had been locked out by the antitheft code. Unlocked the ECM, set the program and she is screaming again!

Cheers to all and thanks again for all your help!!

[Danik675]

Very good job. I also had same noise but I filled it anyway. In a previous post that I replied to you I did mentioned that it was making noises when I was filling atf.