vast (aka snow perfomance) stage 2 water/meth review

[mr shickadance]

hey all,

so a while back i picked up a water meth kit from a member on here and until yesterday it has been sitting in my room collecting dust while i collected moneys for the install

originally i was going to attempt this as a diy and write a diy for it but the instructions provided from vast were confusing, i did not have the right tools and i did not feel comfortable attempting it on my own. so i saved up some money and had the professionals at speedsport tuning in danbury CT install it for me.

if you do not know what water/meth is all about then let me first start by explaining what it is, and why it is a good thing for our cars to run it.

water/meth

bc our cars are turbocharged, the air going into our engines is very hot when we run high boost. that is due to the fact that all that air rushing in to a tiny opening causes friction between the air molecules and with friction, comes heat.

heat as you know causes air to expand so the colder you can get your air in your intake, the more oxygen and power as a result will occur. the lower your IAT's, the more HP you can restore

cliff notes
turbo charges get IAT's hot -> bad for performance


here is where water/meth comes into play,

by injecting a mixture of 50% water, and 50% methanol (or alcohol) before the air gets to the intake manifold you can effectively lower the IAT's because alcohol is amazing at cooling things down. (don't believe me?, ever spill a little bit of gasoline on you when its really hot out and its always cool to touch?)

so now we have an intake system that looks like this (for my car at least)

a cold air intake (debatable i know....shut up) -> a hot, over-clocked turbocharger -> FMIC -> water/meth -> intake manifold

cars that do not have the water/meth have only 1 thing that serves to cool the IAT's before they go into the intake manifold, by running water/meth you now have 2 things that serve to lower the IAT's

lets review
the colder your IAT's, the more power is restored (not gained)

most water/meth systems come on gradually, meaning that at a certain level of user-determined boost the kit will start to spray the solution beginning at 1% power and moving all the way up to full 100% dump as you would not want to run at 100% all the time for daily driving

other benefits


beyond reducing IAT's water/meth is a great idea for our engines because we have issues with carbon build-up from being a poorly designed direct-injected motor. the carbon build-up problem is reduce a bit by the spraying of water/meth into our manifold and ultimately hitting our dirty carbon covered valves and giving them a nice little wash

paired with a catch-can and this is the ultimate way to reduce your carbon problems as much as possible.


Pictures


engine bay
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0777.jpg

pump mounted
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0776.jpg

nozzle mounted
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0775.jpg

expanded
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0774.jpg

controller mounted under the steering wheel
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0783.jpg

one fine ass auto-mobile (these have all be iphone pictars)
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/skrzypczakscj/IMG_0780.jpg



performance review
- some mods you do and you have to really try and notice the difference in gains....this mod was the exact opposite, i would compare this mod to something similar to the test pipe/hfc. you immediately feel the power difference more-so in torque and higher in the RPM range

you really can feel the car being incredibly resistant to heat soak in the top end and i am very pleased with how the system made my car fun for me again. the best way to explain it is you know how when you do a 2nd or 3rd gear pull all the way to redline and you feel as if the power starts to trail off at around 5000 rpms? well this is the first time i felt my car continue to pull all the way to the top.

there are a few different kinds of solution that is out there

pre-mixed 'boost juice'
- which is expensive and the best thing you can get for your car

diy water/meth
- get your methanol from a CVS, RITE AID or other pharmacy
- get DISTILLED WATER by boiling it, or buying it from CVS or RITE AID
- mix 50-50

windshield washer fluid
- must have at least 20% alcohol ....an easy way to remember this is if it says the fluid is good for temps -20 degrees you are in the clear


now, clearly the more alcohol you put in the colder your IAT's are, and since i am using the method that uses the least amount of alcohol naturally i want to get my hands on some boost juice or mix my own and see where it takes me. but for my purposes as a daily driver i really only want to use water/meth as a nice little add-on and don't really want to be spending 30$ a gallon for that junk


i also did not get my ecu flashed for water/meth file bc i have installed a switch and when my tank says that im low im just going to flip the switch to off so i don't have to worry about burning a pump

so with the last thing to talk about are the applications of water/meth

water/meth as an add-on

the method i went with, i did not re-write my software for water/meth i only got it as a add-on to reduce IAT's the performance gains will not be as noticeable using this method however the pro's for me outweighed the cons

pro's of the add-on method
- can turn the water/meth on/off as needed
- don't need to constantly monitor fluid level
- a bit safer

cons
- not as much performance as you could get


the water/meth file
using water meth effectively lets you use the 100octane file that you may or may not have paid for by using pump gas. meaning that you don't need to find places that sell 100 octane gas to run the 100 octane file which is obviously a bit more aggressive. running water/meth improves your octane, while upping the octane number does not inheritly give you more power....you can run more agressive tunes which will push the engine harder thus creating more power however, there are draw backs

pro's
- get the full performance of both the software you paid for, and the kit you paid for
- moar powers
- get more women

con's
- must always have water/meth in your tank
- cannot turn the water meth off without switching program files
- must run 50-50 mixture (no windshield washer fluid)



dealing with Speedsport tuning


http://www.speedsporttuning.net/images/speedsporttuning.png

lastly i want to comment on my experience with speedsport tuning

speedsport (http://www.speedsporttuning.net/) <** click

the originally quoted me at 3-4 hours and it ended up being 5, which was kind of a bummer but i did give them a used kit in which i wasn't even sure if all the parts worked and/or were there. so i was expecting it to take a little bit longer then expected which was fine.

robin, the guy who worked on my car was incredibly helpful, he even took me into the garage to ask me wher ei wanted the pump and took his time to explain to me exactlky what he was doing and why. for that reason alone i was not worried about spending an extra hour of labor because i knew it was going to be done right. so while it took a bit longer then anticipated i was very thrilled with the end result.

speedsport has been my main tuning shop with my car and they are responsible for my 034 hfc + stasis exhaust, this water meth kit, all my unitronic software, my test pipe install and pretty soon when my wheels arrive, they will be the ones dialing in my stance

[vhstejskal]

Great write up...

[wootwoot]

Can't wait to see pics!

[vbrad26]

awesome...in for pics

[yayjohnny]

great write up man. like always. very thorough and explanatory

[dumpedb5]

Thanks for all the info man!

[makav3li]

ya man, straight forward and overall a good writeup.

[A 4 Awesome]

Thanks! I learned a few things from your DIY ... now some pics ps

[Operator]

HEET in the yellow bottles is 99% meth. Though I went with filling up 5 gallon jugs with straight meth as, they'll last longer, and are cheaper than buying the pre-made mix.

Nice review!!!

[wootwoot]

HEET in the yellow bottles is 99% meth. Though I went with filling up 5 gallon jugs with straight meth as, they'll last longer, and are cheaper than buying the pre-made mix.

Nice review!!!

Where can you fill up 5 gallon jugs with straight meth?

[yungcotter]

I found THIS (http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=methdrum), But idk what it costs to get it delivered. that should last awhile.

[Operator]

In my area, there is a place called Team Petroleum http://www.teampetroleum.com/about_us.html I've got 3 five gallon jugs I purchased from another forum, that I use for storage, and a 2 gallon jug I use as the 50/50 mix holder. Distilled water from Wal-Mart is my cheap source for water. But call your local shop as I venture they know a place to fill up with Meth. This method I personally think is the cheapest and better route to go.

[[email protected].]

very nice write up man. the only thing I would add is the octane boosting qualities of WaterMeth. In addition to the lower IAT's, W/M has an octane of about 115.
This is taken from the Snow FAQ:
Benefits:
• Extra octane. This allows for much more aggressive tuning safely to make more power. Timing can often be advanced 10 or more degrees in the power band. Boost can often be increased 5 or more PSI. Air/fuel ratios of around 12.5:1 can be utilized even in high boost applications.

So in addition to the gains seen with the colder IAT's, a W/M tune can untap even more power.

[RedS-line]

where did they mount the nozzle? you didnt seem to mention possible throttle body failure as a con

[Operator]

Mine is at the #5 spot http://www.alcohol-injection.com/articles/where-to-locate-your-alcohol-water-injection-nozzle-2/ .

Shinka what psi do you have yours spraying at? Also peak and hold numbers? Mine was, coming on at 10 psi which was wayyyy to early!

[mr shickadance]

starts at 11 and full tilt at 17, i used to spike and hold 19, i now spike and hold at 21 so im thinking or readjusting it

[RedS-line]

Placing it near the TB, you will see more power gains but You are more prone to your throttle body crapping out- see the vortex forums if you need more info. 10psi is not too early i've heard of some guys that run it earlier. Not to threadjack, but has anyone used Coolingmist? Their kits are cheap and seem to be quality but theyre not popular here...

[mr shickadance]

also mine is located at spot # 4, the IAT sensor on our cars is in the manifold itself and i have it mounted about 4 inches before the manifold.

[[email protected].]

I should have also mentioned,
You get more of the octane boost with the nozzle placed closer to the intake manifold. You get more IAT cooling with the nozzle placed closer to the intercooler. Hence why dual nozzle setups are so appealing, you get the best of both.

[Operator]

Not to threadjack, but has anyone used Coolingmist? Their kits are cheap and seem to be quality but theyre not popular here...

That's what I run, and so far no complaints. Plus I have a 1.5 gal tank well hidden in the trunk with easy access. I just got an indicator placed next to my boost gauge, letting my know when the system is running.

[grassrootz]

That's what I run, and so far no complaints. Plus I have a 1.5 gal tank well hidden in the trunk with easy access. I just got an indicator placed next to my boost gauge, letting my know when the system is running.

Where did you hide it? I cant figure that out without pulling everything out the trunk and modifing the little stash spot.

[Operator]

Where did you hide it? I cant figure that out without pulling everything out the trunk and modifing the little stash spot.


Coolingmist Water/Meth behind sub enclosure.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/525/imgp3184.jpg

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1294/imgp3769t.jpg

With the back seat up, you can't see it of course. This location makes it really easy to refill.

[mr shickadance]

i just used my washer reservoir as the tank, and i mounted the pump right next to it, nothing in my trunk.....our windshield washer tanks are huge so you dont need to fill up as often ....thats the reaosn i went with it there

[Operator]

starts at 11 and full tilt at 17, i used to spike and hold 19, i now spike and hold at 21 so im thinking or readjusting it

Yeh, I just thought for day to day driving, it was coming on too often. I really only wanted it for when I'm getting on the gas, so that's why I moved it to 16psi. So things like HWY driving are when it gets used (over-taking, merging, passing, etc.....)

[Operator]

i just used my washer reservoir as the tank, and i mounted the pump right next to it, nothing in my trunk.....our windshield washer tanks are huge so you dont need to fill up as often ....thats the reaosn i went with it there

Don't make me get out the countdown clock, for pics!!!!!

[mr shickadance]

in the process of washing and waxing.....and lunching which is the step i am at right now

[Operator]

Pics of lunch!!!

[mr shickadance]

pics are up

[Operator]

Good looking ride!!!!!!

[ringofsteel]

So here is my install from 2 1/2 years ago. It is a VAST product and Prince at VAST was great in helping me with the installation over the phone because I was stationed overseas. I chose to place the control hidden in the glove box. I took the controller apart and went to a local hardware store and bought longer screws to put the control back together with the glove box sandwiched in the middle. Of course a small hole was applied to push the wire through. You can see a skull on/off switch I place in-line on the controller. I have since placed a flush on/off switch in place of the "custom Skull" lol. I chose to use hose clamps instead of drilling and bolting. I have been quite pleased with the product, and its use. It isnt NOS but it will save your engine if you are Stage II or above. Well worth the cost of the kit. If you dont put a on off switch on it you can simply turn both dials far right to max and the pump will not run then when you are out. I use cheap -20F washer fluid. This is a 49% water 50% Meth 1% die mix which is safe. Also you can get "HEET" in the yellow bottle from your local auto parts store which is Pure Meth. Mix it 1:1 with distilled water. Also you can go to Lowes and go to the kitchen section where refrigerators are and pick up longer tubing to reach the trunk for a Storage tank. A junk yard you can get any new model car washer tank that will have a sensor you wire ti a 12v light to let know when you are low. Hope this helps

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/Control.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/pump.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/pump2.jpg

[grassrootz]

Can someone provide detailed instructions and pics of the wiring of the pump?

[Faustus]

I should have also mentioned,
You get more of the octane boost with the nozzle placed closer to the intake manifold. You get more IAT cooling with the nozzle placed closer to the intercooler. Hence why dual nozzle setups are so appealing, you get the best of both.


Hey Will,

I've been wanting to install a Snow Performance Stage 3 kit for a while now myself. I've always thought that I was just going to mount it before the intake manifold, position #5, but you mention that you could split the injection to both pre-intake manifold and pre-intercooler...??? That sounds awesome. Have you ever seen that done before? Would you really see the benefits of lower IAT's and higher HP from the two locations?

[Faustus]

I should have also mentioned,
You get more of the octane boost with the nozzle placed closer to the intake manifold. You get more IAT cooling with the nozzle placed closer to the intercooler. Hence why dual nozzle setups are so appealing, you get the best of both.

Hey Will,

I've been wanting to install a Snow Performance Stage 3 kit for a while now myself. I've always thought that I was just going to mount it before the intake manifold, position #5, but you mention that you could split the injection to both pre-intake manifold and pre-intercooler...??? That sounds awesome. Have you ever seen that done before? Would you really see the benefits of lower IAT's and higher HP from the two locations?

[mr shickadance]

^mounting a nozzle before the intercooler is sort of redundant, because you would be cooling the IAT's before the intercooler has a chance to do its job....if you wanted to run a dual nozzle you should put one directly after the intercooler and one before the manifold

[Sprode]

^mounting a nozzle before the intercooler is sort of redundant, because you would be cooling the IAT's before the intercooler has a chance to do its job....if you wanted to run a dual nozzle you should put one directly after the intercooler and one before the manifold

You also run the risk of getting some liquid buildup in your IC core.

[Q-Ball]

I was thinking out t this summer. Good write up.

[Mc Suly]

Is it worth getting a stage 3 meth kit?
for future big turbo?

[[email protected].]

^mounting a nozzle before the intercooler is sort of redundant, because you would be cooling the IAT's before the intercooler has a chance to do its job....if you wanted to run a dual nozzle you should put one directly after the intercooler and one before the manifold

This. Sorry Faustus I should have been more clear. You could put a nozzle before the intercooler if you really wanted, but you best bet is directly after. But to answer your question, yes I've seen quite a few Dual Nozzle setups.

[rkesh88]

Ive only seen the stage 1 and 3 for sale on snow perf site, is the stage 2 being sold still?

[mr shickadance]

^yes, you need to search a bit on their site, its not listed for our cars....but it is there

[ringofsteel]

Can someone provide detailed instructions and pics of the wiring of the pump?


The VAST Kit is a re-badged Devils own here is their website with instructions, that include the wiring diagram
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/viewpage/instructions-16.html

I hope this helps out. Good Luck.

[b7kevin]

Thanks shick for the review and the other good information in this thread regarding the set-ups etc.

For the brand devils own. Best deal on the net.

[CleverA4Name]

What is the difference between running the MAP controller and the MAF controller. Are the controller's interchangeable?

[mr shickadance]

map sensor uses boost pressure to tell the pump when to turn on, example, boosting at 10 psi my pump will turn on a little, then progressively get up to full tilt at 17 psi

maf im not 100% on so i dont want to give out any false information on

[Daniel360]

from experience no car i have ran a 50/50 mix and liked it alot i got more power out of running about 30-35%meth the rest water and have gotten better results. food for thought never ran in on an NA car

[mr shickadance]

running water meth would be sort of odd to run on an NA car, i mean yea lower IAT's are the target goal for any car but since the NA car doesn;t have to worry about high IAT's as a result of the turbo, running nitrous would be a smarter choice

[Daniel360]

well you can run it to raise your octane, so that one use for it.

[mr shickadance]

more octane does not mean more power, a NOS set up would be the more sensible thing

[Daniel360]

more octane lets you add more timing which in turn gives you more hp, and yes NITROUS is a great thing nos is a company

[swoardrider]

Biggest reason people use W/M injection on NA cars is so that they can run higher compression (which equals more power) without running race gas on the street, as race gas is becoming hard to find at the pumps nowadays. It's great to have a barrel of race gas in the garage, but it sucks to not be able to to take your built motor very far from home.

[ringofsteel]

from experience no car i have ran a 50/50 mix and liked it alot i got more power out of running about 30-35%meth the rest water and have gotten better results. food for thought never ran in on an NA car

You are correct. 50/50 is a safe blend. As you have stated there are several variances to the mix. All of which depending on you setup plays a role in the mix.Dyno and Vag testing is the sure way to measure results. One setup of the mix could work say at seal level, but at say Colorado Springs ,CO 6700AGL that mix might not be effective or could cause failure. Again my recommendation was for a safe blend.

[mr shickadance]

more octane lets you add more timing which in turn gives you more hp, and yes NITROUS is a great thing nos is a company

yes, nitrous is what i said in #46....i typoed nos because everyone knows what i mean and its shorter.....like lol which is what i am doing at you right meow

[A4 Centaur]

Mean Sea Level (MSL)

Above Ground Level (AGL)

That car would be flying! LoL!!

[greensto]

How much are people spending on methane per month? It seems like a great mod, but unfortunately it's not the type of mod you...

http://thinkhereblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/491595737_31ee926a9a.jpeg

Had to add the awkward reference.

[mr shickadance]

umm well i mean i dont think i will ever run boost juice.....that shit is too pricey,

and it is very hard to say exactly how much you will use because you can set the water/meth for aggressive or not so agressive (mine) so after driving all the way to boston for the stanley cup (my gf is a canucks fan) i filled up and noticed that i had used about 1/4 gallon (thats a pint right? or a quart? fuck measurements....amirite?) but then again on the drive up i did not really push the car too hard....maybe 50-60 pulls to pass cars, and get on/off ramps....and since you can find windshield fluid for around 3-4$ at most gas stations i would say that maybe in a month i would spend like 15$ tops

its all in how much you want to use ya kno?

[greensto]

OK that's not too bad. I think I'm going to do my fmic first though and then if I get meth, I'll set the one of the nozzles close to it to get maximum efficiency.

[mr shickadance]

i would say fmic would be better to do before w/m

[greensto]

i would say fmic would be better to do before w/m

Concurred

[Daniel360]

mine is a 3 gallon and i use a mix of wiper fluid with water, my kit is a progressive kit that adds more when i program it and it has a 3 gallon tank, look up my post and you will see a pic of it im not on a pc so its hard for me to find it

[ringofsteel]

Mean Sea Level (MSL)

Above Ground Level (AGL)

That car would be flying! LoL!!



ah yes! MSL. Wish I could blame that on auto correct but that was all me.[headbang]

[ringofsteel]

Concurred

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[mr shickadance]

So here is my install from 2 1/2 years ago. It is a VAST product and Prince at VAST was great in helping me with the installation over the phone because I was stationed overseas. I chose to place the control hidden in the glove box. I took the controller apart and went to a local hardware store and bought longer screws to put the control back together with the glove box sandwiched in the middle. Of course a small hole was applied to push the wire through. You can see a skull on/off switch I place in-line on the controller. I have since placed a flush on/off switch in place of the "custom Skull" lol. I chose to use hose clamps instead of drilling and bolting. I have been quite pleased with the product, and its use. It isnt NOS but it will save your engine if you are Stage II or above. Well worth the cost of the kit. If you dont put a on off switch on it you can simply turn both dials far right to max and the pump will not run then when you are out. I use cheap -20F washer fluid. This is a 49% water 50% Meth 1% die mix which is safe. Also you can get "HEET" in the yellow bottle from your local auto parts store which is Pure Meth. Mix it 1:1 with distilled water. Also you can go to Lowes and go to the kitchen section where refrigerators are and pick up longer tubing to reach the trunk for a Storage tank. A junk yard you can get any new model car washer tank that will have a sensor you wire ti a 12v light to let know when you are low. Hope this helps

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/Control.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/pump.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/germanyboy73/pump2.jpg

wow, haha did not know we were running the same kit, same mounting positions ....did we just become best friends?

[ringofsteel]

i have since blacked out the pump and cleaned it up at bit. Being black it hides nice in the engine compartment. Great set up yourself.

[wootwoot]

i would say fmic would be better to do before w/m

For what reason?

[mr shickadance]

i mean you could def run a water meth kit on stock intercoolers and see positive differences in lower IAT's but generally speaking if you at the point where you are considering water/meth then you are also considering pushing your car a little harder

so if you installed a water/meth kit on stock intercoolers then later wanted to upgrade to a fmic you would have to re-tap everything....it would just add a little bit more to the install. not saying you couldn;t do it, just i would think on the list of priorities, an upgraded intercooler, whether it be fmic or smic (ER) would be #1 and that water meth would be #2

[wootwoot]

I see a water meth kit as a substitute to an intercooler setup. Why buy an intercooler when you can buy meth which gives you the cooling as well as the octane boost? Buying both an intercooler and meth injection just sounds like a waste of money unless you are stage 3.

[Operator]

For what reason?

Eh I just did mine at the same time.....

[mr shickadance]

and upgraded intercooler paired with a water/meth would be the ideal

the stock smic's were engineered and designed to adequatley cool IAT's under stock conditions, by going stage 1 and beyond we are pushing the turbo closer to its limits and certainly beyond audi engineers had in mind when they put together the intercoolers. by going stage 2 you have now maxed out the performance of the car's ability to provide fuel necessary to take advantage of the performance upgrades

stage 2+ requires a rebuilt fuel pump to keep up with how hard the ecu is pushing the stock parts....an upgraded intercooler system is a smart idea if your considering stage 2 or 2+ let alone BAT combining a water/meth kit to boot would only help the situation


it would help the stock intercoolers but i think ultimately it wouldn;t be a good substitution for an upgraded intercooler set up but everyone is entitled to thier own opinion .....i will say this tho.....i have never wanted to dyno my car more now tho.

i would really like to see my ebay + water/meth set up vs the AWE FMIC bc my ebay kit ran me around 450 shipped, the water/meth was 300 so at $750 as the investment i would like to see how they measure up

[ringofsteel]

Both add similar but different improvements to your car. I will start with the FMIC. our small K03 have alot of resistance against it straight from the factory. First the CAT is placed directly against the turbo, on the other end the stock FMIC's. They are enough for stock but when tuned, test pipe etc, it makes it harder for the small turbo to get through the stock FMIC. The stock system has potential for alot of failures. Boost leaks are common in stock and Stage 1. DV, N75, the amount of hoses, and the fact the top and bottom of the FMIC are plastic. Constant heat (expansion) and cooling (constriction) break down the stock cooler over time. a FMIC kit increases the volume of air being cooled and increases airflow which reduces back pressure on the turbo, thus making the little guy more efficient. Also the cooling effect of the charged air increase power and helps with cylinder head temps through the power range. FMIC is labor intensive but the rewards are well worth it, and the cost depending on quality and true gains are variable. Once installed maintenance is minimal. W/M bang for your buck is the cheapest for improving the density of the charged air and increase your ability to keep a consistent temps in the cylinder head through pulls. The increased octane rating is nice but the benefits of the dense and cool, and consistent air is money. Installation is easy aside from running wires through the firewall. It took me longer to take the glove box out and put the controller in than the rest of the system. Maintenance is inconvenient due to having to fill the juice. Thus why I put a on/off switch on. For daily driving I do not use the the W/M but for track days, or the occasional ricer I will flip the switch to get consistent pulls the rpms, over and over. Currently I do not have an aftermarket FMIC but will be here shortly. Some of my friends here that have FMIC' with W/M are blown away by the improvements. I personally use W/M to help deter detonation, and increase the density of the air and for the consistent cooling effects. At the time I installed the W/M it was because I got a kit for a fair price. Here in my part of Germany two years ago few were using W/M. The concept of mix meth and water and injecting it into the induction system is weird at first to everyone. Looking at the data from the top FMIC's and W/M, the two together will give you the most gains. Based on the money in your wallet you can start with one and get the other. If you truly plan on going above Stage I you will have to do one for the best protection and improvement to your system. I hope this rambling was more helpful the rambling. best of luck.

[THECOUNT]

umm well i mean i dont think i will ever run boost juice.....that shit is too pricey,

and it is very hard to say exactly how much you will use because you can set the water/meth for aggressive or not so agressive (mine) so after driving all the way to boston for the stanley cup (my gf is a canucks fan) i filled up and noticed that i had used about 1/4 gallon (thats a pint right? or a quart? fuck measurements....amirite?) but then again on the drive up i did not really push the car too hard....maybe 50-60 pulls to pass cars, and get on/off ramps....and since you can find windshield fluid for around 3-4$ at most gas stations i would say that maybe in a month i would spend like 15$ tops

its all in how much you want to use ya kno?

We have Piggy Punch (50/50 mix) here at VAST, we sell it in (4) 1gal cases for $25.00. We do not sell it indvidually because the box that would be required cost more then the Meth.

[saizero]

That is a Awesome Name, "Piggy Punch" I hope it's dyed red.

[mr shickadance]

I want to point out that my title is wrong, vast is not snow performance ill change it later but as a member pointed it out i want to clear it up

[Operator]

umm well i mean i dont think i will ever run boost juice.....that shit is too pricey,

and it is very hard to say exactly how much you will use because you can set the water/meth for aggressive or not so agressive (mine) so after driving all the way to boston for the stanley cup (my gf is a canucks fan) i filled up and noticed that i had used about 1/4 gallon (thats a pint right? or a quart? fuck measurements....amirite?) but then again on the drive up i did not really push the car too hard....maybe 50-60 pulls to pass cars, and get on/off ramps....and since you can find windshield fluid for around 3-4$ at most gas stations i would say that maybe in a month i would spend like 15$ tops

its all in how much you want to use ya kno?

Just spent $33 on 7 gallons of methanol add say $5 for 7 gallons of distilled water and you have 14 gallons of 50/50 mix. So that works out to a total of 14 gallons of 50/50 mix (Boost Juice, DevilsOwn brew, Piggy Punch, etc) for $38. With shipping the pre-made mixes are about $40 or so for 4 gallons. So finding a place that sells methanol is the best way to go in my opinion ($2 dollars less for 10 more gallons). And I actually have a total of 15 gallons of pure methanol now sitting in jugs so I doubt, I'll need to go back, for quite some time.

[mr shickadance]

*meanwhile as the DEA closes in on operators house* hahahaha if i was running a meth file, i would def do what you do for sure tho, but since im pretty mild about my tune and such i just stick to the washer fluid....its about 3$ a gallon at the most but what i like is how convenient it is.....like say i run low, boom, gas station......say i want to clean my windshield....done......its all aboot convenience

[wootwoot]

Just spent $33 on 7 gallons of methanol add say $5 for 7 gallons of distilled water and you have 14 gallons of 50/50 mix. So that works out to a total of 14 gallons of 50/50 mix (Boost Juice, DevilsOwn brew, Piggy Punch, etc) for $38. With shipping the pre-made mixes are about $40 or so for 4 gallons. So finding a place that sells methanol is the best way to go in my opinion ($2 dollars less for 10 more gallons). And I actually have a total of 15 gallons of pure methanol now sitting in jugs so I doubt, I'll need to go back, for quite some time.

Operator do you run a 100 octane map?

[Operator]

I do sometimes. Right now I'm back to 93. But I have a canyon cruise on Sunday that I'll switch back to 100 for.