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joeyvaz
05-25-2011, 05:30 AM
So my engine rebuild will be complete this weekend. I had the following done: new pistons and rings, complete bottom end rebuild, new oil pump, and new timing belt and ancillary parts. Next up is a frankenturbo setup, FMIC, and Billy Boat 2.5" exhaust. Before modding it I want to properly break in the engine. Does anyone have the proper procedure to do this? Or maybe a link?

Thanks,
Joe

Papa_Dios
05-25-2011, 05:48 AM
Drive it like you stole it. Make sure those rings sit right.

hihosilver
05-25-2011, 06:10 AM
So my engine rebuild will be complete this weekend. I had the following done: new pistons and rings, complete bottom end rebuild, new oil pump, and new timing belt and ancillary parts. Next up is a frankenturbo setup, FMIC, and Billy Boat 2.5" exhaust. Before modding it I want to properly break in the engine. Does anyone have the proper procedure to do this? Or maybe a link?

Thanks,
Joe

I'd recommend following the break in procedure that's found in your owners manual. You've spent an obscene amount of cash on your build and now is NOT a good time for impatience. When it comes to my car i follow a few simple rules, they are as follows.
Anything in need of replacement or repair is worth upgrading..
Anything worth doing should be done right, and on the first try..
NEVER cheap out on parts!!!
Well, that was my two cents worth. Hope it helps you out a little

terraflata
05-25-2011, 06:15 AM
What I hear about break ins.

Not to Rev too high but....you must force a load on the rings in order for them to sit properly and create a seal.

Read this: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Some people may not agree with this method. But noone does things the same.

xdewaynex
05-25-2011, 06:21 AM
Ive always heard to run them hard to break them in, but everyone I know drives Mustangs and LS1 cars with big power.

schumacherR18
05-25-2011, 07:09 AM
Hey Joey, where abouts in SI are you from.. I over in bulls head/graniteville 00' 1.8T QM I was looking into a rebuild but for more longterm reliablity but my turbo just started it death march yesterday on the way to work.. "I get on boost past 55mph an plums of white smoke"...s

joeyvaz
05-25-2011, 04:53 PM
Thanks for the links and suggestions.

schumacherR18: I'm in Rosebank right by the VZ. My mechanic is an Audi tech at Audi of Manhattan. He worked for over 10 years at Bell Audi prior to that. He does all the work on my allroad, S4, and the A4. PM your number if you want to talk about my rebuild. I'm going to pick my car up at his house in NJ this Sunday. If you want to take a ride to meet him and discuss your issues and options, I'd be cool with that. He is about 30 minutes from SI. Exit 120 on the GSP.

Joe

Urtorsen
05-25-2011, 05:46 PM
isnt there something about gradually building to high rpm in 3rd or 4th gears and letting completely off throttle all the while leaving the gear engaged so the rpm drops with the cars momentum? i read it on one of the B6 guys builds

FNK
05-25-2011, 06:22 PM
People who drive them hard in the break in end up with a car with oil consumption.

This makes sence as less grit will be created at the same time, created from metal to metal contact, and will be filtered in the oil filter.
You are better with smaller and in less number scars, than highly scarred cylinder walls. Then again, the honing create just that...

Maybe in the end, it just doesn't matter. Each engine is not created equal, therefore, one will say something because he had an engine with thighter clearance than another who turned out to be a lemon.

johnstonad
05-31-2011, 09:48 PM
So my rebuilt engines for sale (http://www.mwdauto.com/) rebuild will be complete this weekend. I had the following done: new pistons and rings, complete bottom end rebuild, new oil pump, and new timing belt and ancillary parts. Next up is a frankenturbo setup, FMIC, and Billy Boat 2.5" exhaust. Before modding it I want to properly break in the engine. Does anyone have the proper procedure to do this? Or maybe a link?

Thanks,
Joe

Hi. I would recommend my friend for it. He knows the proper procedure on how to do it.

themadscientist
05-31-2011, 10:42 PM
Drive it like you stole it. Make sure those rings sit right.


This guy has it right.

You want those rings to seat in with the best seal possible. Warm it up to operating temp, make sure all systems are a go, and drive the piss out of it.

I've rebuilt a lot (and I mean a lot) of engines. Everything from high compression V8 monsters to motorcycles, and I break them all in as such. If something goes wrong during a break in when you're driving it hard, something was overlooked either by the machine shop or the assembler. All this jibberish of scoring and grit is noob talk. If the engine was assembled to spec, then EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE PISTON RINGS (compression and scraper, specifically) will be gliding on a film of oil as it should.

bmarshall
06-01-2011, 01:07 AM
Use mineral oil too for the first 500km (300miles) or so, synthetic is just too good with lubrication properties. The rings will bed in mostly during the first 20miles or so. Just warm it up, dont idle for an excessive amount of time and drive it hard up to 3500/4000rpm. Once you change the mineral oil for synthetic you can fang the crap out of it.

wikid57
06-01-2011, 12:44 PM
definitely run basic oil during the break in(no synthetics or oil additives such as lucas). Reason being that you end up with a great deal of metal shavings when breaking in a fresh rebuild and you dont want them being held in place by thicker oils and such. Use synthetics and all that on your 3rd oil change at the earliest. Change the oil the first time after a few hundred miles. From what I've learned over the years it's best to do break ins on the freeway rather than city stop and go so the engine can be held at consistant rpm to seat the rings. It's very true that if it was built right it'll hold up, just use your head and don't rev the piss out of it until the rings have a solid chance to be seated correctly. GL with it all!

themadscientist
06-02-2011, 12:06 AM
definitely run basic oil during the break in(no synthetics or oil additives such as lucas). Reason being that you end up with a great deal of metal shavings when breaking in a fresh rebuild and you dont want them being held in place by thicker oils and such. Use synthetics and all that on your 3rd oil change at the earliest. Change the oil the first time after a few hundred miles. From what I've learned over the years it's best to do break ins on the freeway rather than city stop and go so the engine can be held at consistant rpm to seat the rings. It's very true that if it was built right it'll hold up, just use your head and don't rev the piss out of it until the rings have a solid chance to be seated correctly. GL with it all!

Wut?

Metal shavings?

You DO want to use conventional oil for the break in for one reason and one reason only; the crosshatch pattern you see in cylinder walls is designed to intentionally "file" the rings ever so slightly to develop a proper seal. A synthetic is too slippery and can impede this process.

I see a lot of misinformation and myths in this thread.

bmarshall
06-02-2011, 03:53 AM
Yeh you have something wrong if there is metal in the oil. Most rings supplied will have a fast bedin top ring and a long life chrome bottom ring

wildbill
06-02-2011, 05:12 AM
b marshall dont tell me your first name is bill

terraflata
06-02-2011, 09:56 AM
Yeh you have something wrong if there is metal in the oil. Most rings supplied will have a fast bedin top ring and a long life chrome bottom ring

Actually no...it is normal for metal shavings to end up in the oil just after a rebuild, it is part of the process. From what I understand (those who know better will correct me)

Start the car......let it run to warming temperature. (Top off all fluids as needed and check for leaks while the car is doing this)

Car reaches nominal temperature. Shut car off, perform oil change and filter change.

Start car back up, make sure she is at proper temp, and commence break in.

During the break in process you will be using Dino/conventional oil. Despite everything anyone has heard, you could run conventional oil in you car all the time if you wished. The trick is just to change it after aggressive track days, and shorter intervals, this would make up for the fact that the oil is less resistant to thermal breakdown. So with that being said, don't feel rushed to be putting synthetic in your car in an attempt to prevent something that won't happen (engine failure due to oil)

I would suggest a magnetic oil pan plug from 034 (ECS has them but I don't know if they solved the problem with the magnet breaking off).

The actual break in process is up to you, but I plan on breaking mine in hard. I havent seen any relevant information as to why a soft break in is better.

wikid57
06-02-2011, 10:23 AM
Wut?

Metal shavings?

You DO want to use conventional oil for the break in for one reason and one reason only; the crosshatch pattern you see in cylinder walls is designed to intentionally "file" the rings ever so slightly to develop a proper seal. A synthetic is too slippery and can impede this process.

I see a lot of misinformation and myths in this thread.

if you are unaware of metal shavings after a fresh rebuild... you should not be lending any advice on this post. Shavings are VERY abundant within the first couple hundred miles. We're talking super small little flakes here by the way, not massive chunks. Thats the ONLY reason to change the oil the first time so quickly is to get them out. The second oil change will have significantly less but still a decent amount. Metal shavings are 100% normal. You yourself just said it "files" the cross hatching... what happens when you file metal? Also, my reasoning for not using synthetics and oil additives was just put out there because it's 100% accurate. I didn't go into detail, I just generalized to help him go the right path and stay away from it while breaking it in. You are the one providing contradicting info.

Castor Troy
06-02-2011, 10:28 AM
if you are unaware of metal shavings after a fresh rebuild... you should not be lending any advice on this post. Shavings are VERY abundant within the first couple hundred miles. We're talking super small little flakes here by the way, not massive chunks. Thats the ONLY reason to change the oil the first time so quickly is to get them out. The second oil change will have significantly less but still a decent amount. Metal shavings are 100% normal. You yourself just said it "files" the cross hatching... what happens when you file metal? Also, my reasoning for not using synthetics and oil additives was just put out there because it's 100% accurate. I didn't go into detail, I just generalized to help him go the right path and stay away from it while breaking it in. You are the one providing contradicting info.

internet high-five. place hand here:





one thing to add that i didnt see mentioned, you want to be constantly varying your RPM. DO NOT cruise at a constant RPM, and idle as little as possible. constantly vary your RPM, with lots of high RPM coasting (take it up to 6000, let it coast back down under vacuum) to help seat the rings properly.

wikid57
06-02-2011, 10:42 AM
internet high-five. place hand here:





one thing to add that i didnt see mentioned, you want to be constantly varying your RPM. DO NOT cruise at a constant RPM, and idle as little as possible. constantly vary your RPM, with lots of high RPM coasting (take it up to 6000, let it coast back down under vacuum) to help seat the rings properly.

yep, exactly why the freeway is perfect. Just make sure the car is running good before ya take it there or ya might be callin a tow truck ;] and that's not awesome. haha

JumboBlack1.8
06-02-2011, 11:58 AM
I rebuilt my motor about 1200 miles ago, and I'm still using conventional oil. My oil change intervals were as follows:
10 mins of idle
20 miles
50 miles
100miles
400 miles
1000 miles
and I'll be switching to synthetic at around 1300 miles

With each oil change, I've removed less and less "metal shavings" (its more like dust....not shards of metal) from my magnetic drain plug. The conventional oil breaks down VERY fast, so I've been getting low-ish oil pressure readings at idle.....so I wouldn't recommend using for extended periods of time (although, I COULD have an oil pump issue, but I doubt it....).

BenjaminR
06-02-2011, 03:59 PM
You want those rings to seat in with the best seal possible. Warm it up to operating temp, make sure all systems are a go, and drive the piss out of it.

I've rebuilt a lot (and I mean a lot) of engines. Everything from high compression V8 monsters to motorcycles, and I break them all in as such. If something goes wrong during a break in when you're driving it hard, something was overlooked either by the machine shop or the assembler. All this jibberish of scoring and grit is noob talk. If the engine was assembled to spec, then EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE PISTON RINGS (compression and scraper, specifically) will be gliding on a film of oil as it should.

x2

Iv rebuilt plenty of engines and thrashed all properly. If something goes wrong it wasn't due to the brake in procedure. Yet when I say thrashed I didn't run any off the rev limiter, but make sure you get out and do some good pulls with it.

Anyone who says to baby it has no clue and has "read about and not done" that is not knowledge.

wikid57
06-02-2011, 06:10 PM
I rebuilt my motor about 1200 miles ago, and I'm still using conventional oil. My oil change intervals were as follows:
10 mins of idle
20 miles
50 miles
100miles
400 miles
1000 miles
and I'll be switching to synthetic at around 1300 miles

With each oil change, I've removed less and less "metal shavings" (its more like dust....not shards of metal) from my magnetic drain plug. The conventional oil breaks down VERY fast, so I've been getting low-ish oil pressure readings at idle.....so I wouldn't recommend using for extended periods of time (although, I COULD have an oil pump issue, but I doubt it....).

That's REALLY excessive to change it that much man, and only hurting your pockets. What weight oil are you using? If you're having low oil pressure readings like that you either need to go to a heavier weight oil(or maybe even using too heavy an oil and the pump isn't able to such it up fast enough). Oil simply doesn't break down anywhere near that fast... heat is what breaks down the oil. You should run the car say 200-300 miles on the first oil change, then maybe 700-1,000 on the 2nd... 3rd can be run to full 3000 but I'd still change it at say 1500-2000 but even thats being a little overly concerned.

terraflata
06-02-2011, 06:16 PM
That's REALLY excessive to change it that much man, and only hurting your pockets. What weight oil are you using? If you're having low oil pressure readings like that you either need to go to a heavier weight oil(or maybe even using too heavy an oil and the pump isn't able to such it up fast enough). Oil simply doesn't break down anywhere near that fast... heat is what breaks down the oil. You should run the car say 200-300 miles on the first oil change, then maybe 700-1,000 on the 2nd... 3rd can be run to full 3000 but I'd still change it at say 1500-2000 but even thats being a little overly concerned.

I have actually heard similar advice. Particulary about doing the oil change directly after letting the car warm up the first time. I figure whats a hundred dollars of oil and filters when your talking about an engine which probably cost anyone of one us several thousand.

wikid57
06-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Hey if ya got the money, it's certainly not hurting anything to change it, just very excessive is all :]

wikid57
06-02-2011, 06:27 PM
That lower oil pressure should be looked at in either case though, oil pressure should be up when the car has been sitting and completely cool. Low oil pressure can mean extra friction and YIKES ya don't want that!

JumboBlack1.8
06-02-2011, 06:37 PM
That's REALLY excessive to change it that much man, and only hurting your pockets. What weight oil are you using? If you're having low oil pressure readings like that you either need to go to a heavier weight oil(or maybe even using too heavy an oil and the pump isn't able to such it up fast enough). Oil simply doesn't break down anywhere near that fast... heat is what breaks down the oil. You should run the car say 200-300 miles on the first oil change, then maybe 700-1,000 on the 2nd... 3rd can be run to full 3000 but I'd still change it at say 1500-2000 but even thats being a little overly concerned.

Eh....it's all personal preference, IMO. In all my research, I didn't find any info, or receive any advice that would indicate what the "gold standard" is for oil change intervals. I decided to do it early and often as to prevent those metal shavings from moving about too much.....Also, I used Penzoil conventional 10w40 oil, which is very cheap at Autozone.

As for my pressure issues, I started out using 5w30, but got even lower readings at hot idle. ONLY when the oil gets very hot do my pressure readings drop. Been doin some research on conventional oil vs. synthetic, to see if my issues are a result of the oil quality

wikid57
06-02-2011, 07:02 PM
Eh....it's all personal preference, IMO. In all my research, I didn't find any info, or receive any advice that would indicate what the "gold standard" is for oil change intervals. I decided to do it early and often as to prevent those metal shavings from moving about too much.....Also, I used Penzoil conventional 10w40 oil, which is very cheap at Autozone.

As for my pressure issues, I started out using 5w30, but got even lower readings at hot idle. ONLY when the oil gets very hot do my pressure readings drop. Been doin some research on conventional oil vs. synthetic, to see if my issues are a result of the oil quality

Yeah intervals of the oil change is definitely up in the air, like I said it's certainly not harming anything to do it more often. If it's not breakin your pockets then by all means change it often.

Lower oil pressure when it warms up is normal, suppose it really depends how low we're talkin. The weight you're using isn't bad at all. Some things I've seen cause low oil pressure would be if the oil pick up tube is too close to the oil pan if it wasnt seated properly or maybe it was bent or damaged. How low is your pressure?

JumboBlack1.8
06-02-2011, 07:07 PM
It gets down as low as 10psi at times when its REALLY hot outside.....I cleaned the pickup tube the last time I was in there, and the oil pump gears spec'd out to "new", according to the Bentley manual. I've read that the pressure release valve (which is ON the oil pump itself on 058 blocks, as opposed to the oil filter housing on 06a blocks) can fail, causing low readings.....but my readings are ONLY low at idle. I get 50psi at about 2.8k rpms when hot.......I dunno.....Gonna change the oil and see what happens.....If that does nothing, then Im gonna throw a new oil pump in......I'll post results in my build thread

OP, I apologize for the thread jack...

themadscientist
06-02-2011, 08:26 PM
if you are unaware of metal shavings after a fresh rebuild... you should not be lending any advice on this post. Shavings are VERY abundant within the first couple hundred miles. We're talking super small little flakes here by the way, not massive chunks. Thats the ONLY reason to change the oil the first time so quickly is to get them out. The second oil change will have significantly less but still a decent amount. Metal shavings are 100% normal. You yourself just said it "files" the cross hatching... what happens when you file metal? Also, my reasoning for not using synthetics and oil additives was just put out there because it's 100% accurate. I didn't go into detail, I just generalized to help him go the right path and stay away from it while breaking it in. You are the one providing contradicting info.

Prove me wrong, please. Show me pictures (even one) of these tiny shavings.

I'll give you a little hint, you can't. The particles are too small to even be captured by oil filters. Hardly shavings, it's barely a metal powder. It's not even gritty (unless possibly some noob went apeshit with a hone or used the wrong one, but I've yet to see that...) How do I know? Because I strain break in oil through a coffee filter(takes a while) to catch any issues early on. The
finite particles are one of two reasons for an oil change right after the first hard pulls and break-in drive. The second reason for the first oil change is the high contamination from combustion gases due to blow-by as the rings obviously aren't set right away and excessive blow by will be present at first. Both are simply forms of contamination.

When you're getting paid to build (and break in) 9 and 10 second engines in DD cars feel free to come bark up my tree. I hate being a dick but this is a field I've dedicated my life to. I'm not some shade tree weekend warrior.

How about OP does the break in and strains the oil through a coffee filter or some other medium that'll catch these elusive shavings?

wikid57
06-02-2011, 09:38 PM
Prove me wrong, please. Show me pictures (even one) of these tiny shavings.

I'll give you a little hint, you can't. The particles are too small to even be captured by oil filters. Hardly shavings, it's barely a metal powder. It's not even gritty (unless possibly some noob went apeshit with a hone or used the wrong one, but I've yet to see that...) How do I know? Because I strain break in oil through a coffee filter(takes a while) to catch any issues early on. The
finite particles are one of two reasons for an oil change right after the first hard pulls and break-in drive. The second reason for the first oil change is the high contamination from combustion gases due to blow-by as the rings obviously aren't set right away and excessive blow by will be present at first. Both are simply forms of contamination.

When you're getting paid to build (and break in) 9 and 10 second engines in DD cars feel free to come bark up my tree. I hate being a dick but this is a field I've dedicated my life to. I'm not some shade tree weekend warrior.

How about OP does the break in and strains the oil through a coffee filter or some other medium that'll catch these elusive shavings?

You're just trying to draw out an arguement at this point. I described them as shavings and even thoroughly described how they're very small flakes and not large chunks. They're filings. It's metal on metal, the cylender walls are cross hatched to enduce the rings to file their way to a decent seat. Yet again I was just guiding the man, I didn not go into every last little bit of detail as to why to change the oil. YOU are the one that said it was for ONE reason and ONE reason only:

"You DO want to use conventional oil for the break in for one reason and one reason only; the crosshatch pattern you see in cylinder walls is designed to intentionally "file" the rings ever so slightly to develop a proper seal."

then ALSO contradicted yourself saying:

"WUT? Metal shavings?"

I never barked up your tree, you barked up mine and then made contradicting remarks. I leant the man some sound advice and you're poppin in not helping anything regaurding this post what-so-ever. Say somethin to benefit the guy in his question or don't post. NEVER did I say you have no clue what you're saying. But even now you try to make it seem as though what I said was invalid yet you sit and say you filter them out acknowledging that they're there... and yet trying to demand a picture of something that you know full well what we're talking about?? haha makes sense man.

themadscientist
06-03-2011, 10:05 PM
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall at this point.

Shavings =/= a finite dust that does very little harm.

When I said "file" I put it in quotes for a reason ; it was being used loosely. Don't be so dense.

Ever wetsand paint? You can see all those little particles when they're bunched up but you can't feel them, and you can't pick them out individually.

I'm pretty sure I tried to help by trying to get him to break it in properly and not listen to a bunch of myths and second or third hand knowledge.

Or if he wants to, he can idle it, baby it, and glaze it in the process.

One last bit of knowledge for the thread, the crosshatching frequency and angle (as well as the stone being used) is critical for oil control for the life of the engine. If anyone wants to hone their cylinders, make sure you know what the hell you're doing.

bmarshall
06-04-2011, 04:09 PM
I rebuilt a 1.6l isuzu motor for a holden gemini when I was 17 before i knew much about engines. Im not saying i know heaps now but have more first hand experience. I honed the bores myself, used synthetic from start and ran it in with high idle for a long time. It was a very strong motor for about 9 months before I got so much blow by oil was poring out from everywhere. I put that down to the bad hone mostly and run in process was not that great.
My names not bill!