Return APR Stage I and go E85 Flexfuel?

[Satummoo]

So I got my APR Stage I file flashed last week and it's pretty nice. I was actually hoping for a little bit more as I thought I remember a bigger difference between my MKIV GTI 1.8t that I had years ago.

Now i'm waiting to install a 034 HFC but there is tunning company Blue Water Performance ( http://bwperformance.com/ ) Only 20 miles away from me here in Denver that specializes in e85 Flex fuel tunes that require NO program switching between 91 or e85.

From what I've read about their tuning on the VR6 R32 (30hp) and what e85 does to turbo applications, I was thinking it would be worth it to return my stage I and wait for them to finish a 2.0t tune that's due in 1-2 months.

Do any of you guys run e85 or have experiences from other turbo cars? I know there is less MPG but I don't drive a lot and there are quite a few stations here in Colorado. Thanks!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uua43d2z2xc&feature=player_embedded

[bigblue]

Theres a couple guys in the b6 forum who run e85... not sure who but I remember reading a little about it.

[jimrobbington]

I have kind if wondered the same. I have heard of people getting better number off e85 and it's available everywhere. I didn't know if hardware upgrades were necessary, or what.

[Der Konig]

Don't you have to upgrade the fuel lines or it corrodes them? Or is that something else?

[theredcaron]

Wow I am very interested in this!

[Elias]

The fuel lines will still work with E85, the only problem with E85 is that the fuel consumption will increase with approx 25% if not more. This due to the fact that pure ethanol contains ~50% of the energy that normal petrol have.
The good things is the 104 octane rating which results in the possibility to boost more.

[Der Konig]

Must of been thinking of biodiesel corroding fuel lines

[PNB7]

I will probably get another 100hp just from E85 on my VR6 turbo...maybe people dont believe it but I've seen what this stuff does. In order to accomidate you need injectors 1.4-1.6 times the size in order to have appropriate fuel levels. Also no idea if the stock pump is E85 friendly. I know we already have enough issues getting enough fuel with normal gasoline on the B7s I would be skeptical if you could do what you need on the stock fuel pump system. Maybe someone in APR can chime in but I'm pretty sure it's not worth it unless you have an application like mine where its pretty easy to make the swap. I will be doing it pretty soon. Maybe the next few months it will be done I have the injectors and the new wastegate spring I just want to enjoy the car in one piece for a bit. Just FYI E85 is 107 octane so yes the gains are there but you definately need a tune. Like I said for the B6 guys it's much more simple to get the fuel there but we have the dumb FPFP to worry about. Exactly why I took my 2.0T out.
EDIT: And yes due to the fuel properties of Ethanol it is less prone to knocking. The higher the octane number usually means the tighter the bonds and the more pressure and temperature needed to break the molecule apart and cause combustion. Ethanol has a much higher autoignition point than regular fuel so you can run much higher boost levels as a result. Furthermore it inherently lowers combustion temperatures, another plus. Honestly every single high performance standalone car out of two of the best high performance shops down here in South Florida (one of which is the one that tunes my car) runs E85 at the track. Every day your mileage will suck due to the above consumption levels but this is for performance. Most of the other components dont need to be changed you just have to know whether the lines/pump will support it. I'm honestly a little skeptical as to whether the stock lines would be alright. Not sure anyone else has ever taken them off but they are pretty flimsy plastic (as fuel lines go) and I don't think I would trust them that much. Could be fine but I'd rather not gamble

[vbrad26]

its redic. what it did to my friends STI...

huge gains...

ill see if i can get them and report back just for an example

[vbrad26]

367/382 on pump gas, full spool by 3750 @20psi


Holy shit, 438 HP and 470 TQ on E85 at 25psi!

that corn juice does some work

not totally sure what all he has done to the car but thats a pretty impressive increase

[WasGTIguy]

Our cars aren't set up to run E85, LOL. It'll be costly if you do. "To run this biofuel, mechanics had to be modified and replaced the fuel tank, the initial feed pump, piping system and active carbon filter, new ones that support high corrosive power of bioethanol E85. Also, some components have been strengthened by direct injection system with a specific treatment for metal surfaces that come into contact with bioethanol not suffer."

http://www.autocarbe.com/audi/audi-a4-2.0-tfsi-flexible-fuel/

[swoardrider]

^^Yep, in lame terms you need special fuel lines, special o-rings, etc to run alcohol based fuel. You can run a flex fuel car on petrol, but not the other way around. Hence the flex fuel badge on a lot of the Chevy trucks and SUVs. They set them up from the factory to run either fuel. This was a huge problem in the auto industry back in the '90s when the oil companies started adding lots of ethanol to petrol fuel. Especially on Fords and Jaguars. Fuel lines were literally melting, and heads were pitting.
But, the alcohol performance benefits are only had with a change in compression and/or boost. So a turbo car could probably increase it's boost by at least 10lbs resulting in some decent gains. The real magic tho is in the ability to up the engine compression!

[Sprode]

^^Yep, in lame terms you need special fuel lines, special o-rings, etc to run alcohol based fuel. You can run a flex fuel car on petrol, but not the other way around. Hence the flex fuel badge on a lot of the Chevy trucks and SUVs. They set them up from the factory to run either fuel. This was a huge problem in the auto industry back in the '90s when the oil companies started adding lots of ethanol to petrol fuel. Especially on Fords and Jaguars. Fuel lines were literally melting, and heads were pitting.
But, the alcohol performance benefits are only had with a change in compression and/or boost. So a turbo car could probably increase it's boost by at least 10lbs resulting in some decent gains. The real magic tho is in the ability to up the engine compression!

Lame terms? Lol. Tell me again the how performance under high boost or under high static compression are any different?

Theres a lot of misinformation and hand-waving going on in this thread. I was gonna start debunking one at a time but I figured this was easier.

I run e85 in the supra, and I wrote an article on e85 conversion that I'll post up here. GF works for SEMA SAN and asked for a stock writeup on e85 that could be distributed to magazines in the source interlink group if they needed it. (Frustratingly small) snippets of this article can be found in import tuner and some other domestic mags I barely acknowledge.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jsterlin/E85%20Conversion2.doc

[swoardrider]

Lame terms? Lol. Tell me again the how performance under high boost or under high static compression are any different?

Come on now, son. Please don't tell me you just said that. Especially coming from you. Someone who is obviously more knowledgable than I am in this department. Like I said, think lame. What's going to get from 0 to 80mph quicker: A 3076 on 2 liter with a 13:1 compression on mild boost, or the same 3076 2 liter on 9:1 with high boost?

I'm talking real world driving, not bench testing engines at 6000rpms.

[Satummoo]

Lame terms? Lol. Tell me again the how performance under high boost or under high static compression are any different?

Theres a lot of misinformation and hand-waving going on in this thread. I was gonna start debunking one at a time but I figured this was easier.

I run e85 in the supra, and I wrote an article on e85 conversion that I'll post up here. GF works for SEMA SAN and asked for a stock writeup on e85 that could be distributed to magazines in the source interlink group if they needed it. (Frustratingly small) snippets of this article can be found in import tuner and some other domestic mags I barely acknowledge.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jsterlin/E85%20Conversion2.doc

Read the .doc file. Very informing read. I think I may want to do e85. good to know there has been tear downs of engines with no damage. Post up some more info if you have any

[wootwoot]

I just noticed a station near me selling E85. The price was about 25-30% cheaper than 91 octane so the increased fuel needs would balance out with the cost of gas. I would love to hear more about this.

[WasGTIguy]

I just noticed a station near me selling E85. The price was about 25-30% cheaper than 91 octane so the increased fuel needs would balance out with the cost of gas. I would love to hear more about this.

You're looking for trouble of you run it in our cars without modification. And you'll find trouble, I guaranty it.

[Sprode]

Come on now, son. Please don't tell me you just said that. Especially coming from you. Someone who is obviously more knowledgable than I am in this department. Like I said, think lame. What's going to get from 0 to 80mph quicker: A 3076 on 2 liter with a 13:1 compression on mild boost, or the same 3076 2 liter on 9:1 with high boost?

I'm talking real world driving, not bench testing engines at 6000rpms.

I see what you arer saying and dont care to argue. My next build will be high comp too.

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