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JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 07:10 AM
Hey guys,
Unfortunately, I believe that the source of my recent engine rattle is some failed rod bearings (not sure which cylinder are knocking). The noise doesn't appear to be coming from the valve-train or drivetrain, and it's consistent with RPM. This happened as a result of SUPER advanced timing at idle that resulted in some low-load detonation upon increasing engine loads. I had only recently begun to correct because it took FAR longer than expected to dial in my injectors, and Tapp hadn't added an Idle Torque map to Maestro7 until VERY recently.....I was making a LOT of progress, but the bearings gave out before I could finish....So....here I am....with a knocking motor...

Whenever I get the opportunity (hopefully this weekend), I plan to replace the rod bearings and possibly crankshaft bearings with some coated bearings from 034.....My question is......is it possible to replace the bearings without pulling the motor (i.e. will I get enough clearance by simply dropping the oil pan)???

TIA

grillhands
02-14-2011, 07:41 AM
You can but you are going to be on your back most of the time. It might be a pain to torque all the rods that way.

Haenszel20v
02-14-2011, 07:49 AM
you're going to need new rods and a new crank.

How much timing was it running at idle? I find this to be an odd explanation, as usually a ring land will go first.

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 07:59 AM
Heres the video I posted in another thread:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/th_MOV03132.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/?action=view&current=MOV03132.mp4)

It was running between -.75* and 5* at idle when it was at its worst. After dialing in the injectors and scaling back Idle Torque, I managed to lower timing to around 10*. Then this started happening

M-Hood
02-14-2011, 08:01 AM
Yeah I have to agree, if you spun a rod bearing you are going to need new rods and a new crank.

Haenszel20v
02-14-2011, 08:05 AM
It was running between -.75* and 5* at idle when it was at its worst. After dialing in the injectors and scaling back Idle Torque, I managed to lower timing to around 10*. Then this started happening
so you were running less timing, then upped it... 10 is still entirely acceptable at idle. Are you sure this is actually attributed to tune issues or is there a chance the tolerances were not quite right internally?

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 09:57 AM
I didn't physically up the timing at idle.....I wanted to resolve the issues that were resulting in very advanced timing. I believe TOTALLY incorrect fuel and EXTREMELY high idle torque values in the Maestro base file were the cause, evidenced by the occurrence of HIGH knock correction (usually on 3-4 cylinders) when moving off in first gear (numbers that were slowly decreasing as I adjusted fuel and idle torque).

As for the tolerances, I am not sure. I didn't build the car, so I can't answer that. I do know that the motor WAS built by a very reputable shop.

Heres a better video of the noises its making (different camera)......Today it doesn't sound as bad, which is weird. And, according to Maestro, o2 corrections are within spec, Engine Load is around 28-30, timing advance is still sporadic but peaks around 10ish, and none of the 4 cylinders are pulling timing. Everything LOOKS good, but the sound is still there

Idle
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/th_MVI_1082.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/?action=view&current=MVI_1082.mp4)

Rev to around 2k RPMs
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/th_MVI_1083.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/?action=view&current=MVI_1083.mp4)

What does this sound like to you guys? I don't particularly have an ear for this stuff yet

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 03:33 PM
Bump....anyone? Hoping this is a just a cam chain tensioner failing.....

danphines
02-14-2011, 03:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toO2nP9UjDk&feature=related

Yours does not sound like the tensioner.

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 03:43 PM
I know what they sound like...had one start to fail on my old car......Just wishful thinking....I reaaallllllyyy don't wanna rebuild this car....I just fucking got it

nunya
02-14-2011, 04:07 PM
I know what they sound like...had one start to fail on my old car......Just wishful thinking....I reaaallllllyyy don't wanna rebuild this car....I just fucking got it

Have you poked around in the pan first to see if you can find any bits in there? I would at least do that before you go through the trouble of dropping the pan. Mine was rather obvious the last time i spun a bearing, and i didnt need new rods, just a new crank. But i caught it pretty early.

--dillon

Haenszel20v
02-14-2011, 04:30 PM
Don't run it anymore. That's a rod bearing.

Drain the oil and you'll have yourself some funfetti.

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 06:10 PM
Done.....thinking of tackling this on my own.....

EuroDriven
02-14-2011, 06:47 PM
You CAN do it without too many problems without dropping the motor. It isn't hard to torque the rods under there, I did mine this way in October or November. If you only do the rod bearings it should take 5-6 hours maybe from start to finish. It highly depends on how good you are on these motors, I got really familiar when the motor was out of the car the day before I replaced my rod bearings.

But if it IS your rod bearings I would say pull the motor and transmission because you will need a new crank, and new rods as well. (not sure if you can re-machine the rods for over-sized bearing thickness to avoid new rods). But while you are in there, do a new front and ream main seal on the crank (I have 1 of each brand new if you need them), check your throwout bearing, clean your oil pan/pick up.

Again if you are good with a B5 A4 you could have the motor out, put all new parts in and put the motor back, and have in driving withing a 15 hour period. It would be a long day, but would it would only be 1 day of working on the car. In your case I would start sourcing another (ABA??) crank, and new rods since you are a stroker and you might be able to find a used crank if the parts are what I remember them to be.

Let me know if you need any help with anything

-John

PS - Remember to use COPIOUS amounts of lube.

JumboBlack1.8
02-14-2011, 06:58 PM
Just watched all these videos:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/282450-DIY-Rod-install-bottom-end-rebuild

While I am cautious to assume that this video series provides a complete blueprint for ANY wrencher to tackle an engine rebuild, I am confident that I have the steady hand, attention to detail, and patience needed to reassemble my block. What I DON"T have are all the necessary tools. So, before I buy any parts, I've got to buy an engine stand, try to source an engine hoist, and start compiling (or borrowing) some of the necessary tools. When I start getting an idea for exactly what I'm gonna do (still unsure if I wanna go through with this...), I may start a build thread.

Thanks guys

This sucks.....

nunya
02-14-2011, 07:29 PM
Good luck man. Buy an oil pressure gauge. I know exactly how you feel. I just mailed of my intermediate shaft to SCCH to get it machined. All the rest is at the local machinist here. If the rods didnt get too hot then you may be fine but the crank is likely toast.

--dillon

danphines
02-15-2011, 05:19 AM
Just watched all these videos:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/282450-DIY-Rod-install-bottom-end-rebuild

While I am cautious to assume that this video series provides a complete blueprint for ANY wrencher to tackle an engine rebuild, I am confident that I have the steady hand, attention to detail, and patience needed to reassemble my block. What I DON"T have are all the necessary tools. So, before I buy any parts, I've got to buy an engine stand, try to source an engine hoist, and start compiling (or borrowing) some of the necessary tools. When I start getting an idea for exactly what I'm gonna do (still unsure if I wanna go through with this...), I may start a build thread.

Thanks guys

This sucks.....

Check craigslist

EuroDriven
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
I rented an engine hoist off craigslist for $30 a month since I didn't have the space to keep one after my build, I have it for like 5 months, and the guy only charged me $90. The engine stand I was able to borrow from a friends dad with a shop, but look for one meant for a beefy V8, since I had a small flimsy POS, it was hard (and scary) to rotate the stand.

Also you will need a load balancer and lift chains.

As always check craigslist then harbor freight, but this should be good to get you started:
http://www.harborfreight.com/2000-lb-foldable-engine-stand-67015.html

Order a socket set like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CRAFTSMAN-283PC-MECHANICS-TOOL-SET-SEALED-BNIB-/330529106205?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf511e91d#ht_500wt_1156

I needed STRONG 12pt sockets for my Brute rods, get a slew of the cheap 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" extensions and size changers from harbor freight, they are cheap and work well.

Need obviously a jack and jack stands, I used 2 jack stands for the front and put the rear wheels on wheels.

You will need a good triple square bit set like below, I bought a set with short bits that goes onto socket wrenches easily but it didn't have enough shank length.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=triple+square+bit+set&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6960848761110193692&ei=odZaTZuNCIGdlgfw3JnSDA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ8gIwAA#

For the drive shaft bolts, I used a 9" (??) long extended hex socket from harbor freight. You need a tight fit and a lot of torque to get those suckers off, the long bit length lets you bend the bit a little to squeeze a socket wrench on.

Get a harbor freight breaker bar I only used a 1/2" bar, but if you have the funds a 3/8" wouldn't hurt as well, but I just used a reducer.

You need a torque wrench, but you can rent a 1/2" one from Autozone for $100 deposit, and then when you bring the tool and the receipt back you get the $100 back. (SAVE THE RECEIPT, or pay with a card so they can look it up) You will need this primarily (in my case) for the head bolts, and rod cap bolts.

Dial or vernier calipers are nice (and a micrometer) to check dimensions of parts like crank shafts, rod caps, piston diameters, etc.

You will need a harbor freight piston ring compressor to put your pistons back in, but if you are in there, it may not hurt to re-glaze or hone your cylinders, if your rings look worn, autozone has a hone to rent, but you will need to go online for a cylinder glazing tool.

If I think of more I will post them up, but this should be about it for anything major, or specialized. You will need metal and rubber mallets, a slew of pliers, etc.

-John

Audi Skate Snow
02-15-2011, 12:48 PM
You can do it without pulling the motor. I actually just replaced my crank and rod/main bearings this week.

I actually pulled the motor since I had the trans off already. It is a lot easier to do it on an engine stand since you can lay the crank down and then tighten things up. With keeping it in the car you just need and extra set of hands to have someone hold everything into place.

Drop the oil pan and just replace the crank, bearings front and rear main seal and you should be good to go. If the crank checks out ok you could reuse it... but the time and money to get it polished and checked out its easier to replace the crank. I got a forged crank for 125 bucks... then order bearings, front and rear seal. total was like 300bucks. Thankfully I do all my own work.

Haenszel20v
02-15-2011, 12:54 PM
Pull the motor, get a new crank and 1 or more new rods(wait till you get it out to see). Then take it somewhere who konws what they're doing. It will help you avoid doing this twice. Also get an oil pump just in case.

I can't believe someone would suggest replacing the crank but not touching the rods.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/haenszel/2lmrifpjpg.gif

Audi Skate Snow
02-15-2011, 01:02 PM
Didn't even think of the rod ahahah. You will for sure need at least one new rod if you spun a bearing. Can you even purchase one rod?

Sorry, was just repeating what I replaced.

EuroDriven
02-15-2011, 01:07 PM
You can do it without pulling the motor. I actually just replaced my crank and rod/main bearings this week.

I actually pulled the motor since I had the trans off already. It is a lot easier to do it on an engine stand since you can lay the crank down and then tighten things up. With keeping it in the car you just need and extra set of hands to have someone hold everything into place.

Drop the oil pan and just replace the crank, bearings front and rear main seal and you should be good to go. If the crank checks out ok you could reuse it... but the time and money to get it polished and checked out its easier to replace the crank. I got a forged crank for 125 bucks... then order bearings, front and rear seal. total was like 300bucks. Thankfully I do all my own work.

Crankshaft journals are precision ground (machined? Not sure of the process) to ten-thousandths of an inches, that is +/- 0.0005 preferably undersized for obvious reasons. If the surface of the journal does not look the same, ie if you can see an lines or changes in color or finish, the journal is likely garbage. If you reinstall bearings on this you are likely gonna need to open it up again. I had a uneven surface on the journal for cylinder #1 that looked to be less then a thousandth (had nothing that would even measure it, calipers and micrometer couldn't catch it) but had no edge or feeling of being a different dimension, looked like it was just a non mirror finish, but I am still worried about the crank, but I didn't have the resources to replace the crank, so I will see how bad it turns out when the car is running.


Pull the motor, get a new crank and 1 or more new rods(wait till you get it out to see). Then take it somewhere who konws what they're doing. It will help you avoid doing this twice. Also get an oil pump just in case.

I can't believe someone would suggest replacing the crank but not touching the rods.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/haenszel/2lmrifpjpg.gif

May have to get ALL new rods or some sort of exchange with the manufacturer since the rods need to be balanced relative to each other. Also, this isn't dating site, take your picture down! [:p]

Audi Skate Snow
02-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Crankshaft journals are precision ground (machined? Not sure of the process) to ten-thousandths of an inches, that is +/- 0.0005 preferably undersized for obvious reasons. If the surface of the journal does not look the same, ie if you can see an lines or changes in color or finish, the journal is likely garbage. If you reinstall bearings on this you are likely gonna need to open it up again. I had a uneven surface on the journal for cylinder #1 that looked to be less then a thousandth (had nothing that would even measure it, calipers and micrometer couldn't catch it) but had no edge or feeling of being a different dimension, looked like it was just a non mirror finish, but I am still worried about the crank, but I didn't have the resources to replace the crank, so I will see how bad it turns out when the car is running.

[:p]

Yea that is why I said to replace the crank. If it is not that bad it might be able to be polished/machine it. There are companies that will strengthen, straighten and machine rod and main journals. But again like I said it is not even worth the time or money to get it checked out and to replace the crank.

Here is a pic of machining main journals.
http://www.r-f.com/images/crankshaft/fix_9_4_crankshaft_main_turned_185.jpg

EuroDriven
02-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Guess I misread, I am not sure of the order of magnitude of the precision of rods, likely the same area, but I would imagine that if the rods and bearings have tangs that you would really have to destroy the bearing to need a new rod. Unless Hanzel is talking about heat deformation, in which case I know nothing about.

Audi Skate Snow
02-15-2011, 01:47 PM
here is a pic of a spun bearing and rod journal.

http://www.yotatech.com/attachments/f116/67829d1188368536-runes-3-0-rebuild-thread-img_3058-1.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads15/IMG_19111252293098.jpg

EuroDriven
02-15-2011, 03:04 PM
What did the rod look like?

Audi Skate Snow
02-15-2011, 03:16 PM
It wasn't my motor. It was on a Porsche forum. Happen to one of the Porsche Guys.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads15/IMG_19261252292859.jpg


Here is the crank after it was machined.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads15/DSCN02771255926904.jpg

EuroDriven
02-15-2011, 05:44 PM
Interesting, I would assume a Porsche crankshaft would be most cost worthy to machine than a B5 would. People may not pull porsches apart the way we do B5s... (as in the shear volume of part outs)

Did he give a price on the machine work?

JumboBlack1.8
02-16-2011, 06:34 AM
Spoke with my dad's mechanic yesterday. Gonna run a few more tests tomorrow afternoon to make sure exactly whats going on. I'll report back with my findings.......I want 100% confirmation that its a rod bearing before tearing the motor down.

Dan[FN]6262
02-16-2011, 06:58 AM
good luck. hopefully this doesn't cost too much to fix.

Haenszel20v
02-16-2011, 07:14 AM
just drain your oil, that will tell you.

JumboBlack1.8
02-16-2011, 07:42 AM
Yup. Plan on doing that....I'll get to that tomorrow


5857;6197332']good luck. hopefully this doesn't cost too much to fix.

Thanks! I'm praying this won't be too expensive....

Audi Skate Snow
02-16-2011, 08:17 AM
Yea all this talk about spinning a rod. Hopefully you get lucky and it is just something else.

Militant-Grunt
02-16-2011, 08:38 AM
You can check this without removing the motor, drain the oil and drop the oil pan, you can see if the rods have any play in them. you will also visually see if there's anything awry. If you do it yourself its just the cost of an oil change and some victor reinz silicone for the gasket. Unfortunately to drop the pan you need to jack up the motor a little bit and partially drop the subframe. Kind of difficult to do without a lift, but possible.

Ive seen much dumber stuff cause noise like that. I once seen a loose oil pump make that noise.

JumboBlack1.8
02-16-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm hopeful that's its just something so stupid.....it'd be VERY odd for it to be a bearing, considering how unbelievably lightly I've been driving the car for the last several months. This noise started happening after I drove over a patch of frozen snow that scraped the bottom of the car from end-to-end. Was going about 5mph......The next day, I could hear this noise from the cabin......Who knows???.....just hoping its not as bad as we all think it is

Audi Skate Snow
02-16-2011, 12:47 PM
Almost sounds like the flywheel banging around or something.

JumboBlack1.8
02-16-2011, 01:33 PM
Thought it was flywheel chatter at first...

EuroDriven
02-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Are you SURE its coming from inside the engine then? I would think the chances of you starting to have rod knock at the same time you undercarriage gets nailed by ice is slim to none.

Have you checked all your pulleys to be sure nothing got bent? Could be something with a drive shaft or diff.

Does it do it while sitting still and moving? Only while moving? Only while sitting still. (by sitting still I mean in neutral w/ e brake on, like just in your garage)

I just re-read your OP after reading your most recent post about ice, and maybe I am not familiar with the theory, but how could low load detonation at advanced timing cause rod knock? If the rod bearings were good before this I am not sure why or how this would cause you to spin a bearing, wouldn't the crank keep rotating like business as usual, or how would it put enough friction between the bearing and the crank to spin the bearing?

I would think if anything it would screw up your top end. I know you bought the car from someone on here but is the upper end re built? (valves, lifters, guides, cams, etc) Should be easy enough to pull the valve cover off and see that everything up there is within spec and working right.

I am not personally familiar with noises of the CCT dieing, but I feel like it was dismissed easily because of one video. The youtube video with the bad CCT posted, HOW bad was it? Was it just barely starting to die or was that after a while? It is still hard for me to hear exactly whats going on in your video Jumbo but I couldn't match up the frequencies of the knocking.

Again you can pull the VC of very easily to poke around in there.

Audi Skate Snow
02-16-2011, 03:24 PM
CCT sound is completely different.. its a loud ticking opposed to his loud knocking.

Grab a really long screw driver and start putting it against parts of the motor and then put your ear on the handle of the screw driver (like a stethoscope) ... you will be able to track down the noise as it gets louder.

revolution337
02-16-2011, 04:09 PM
Grab a really long screw driver and start putting it against parts of the motor and then put your ear on the handle of the screw driver (like a stethoscope) ... you will be able to track down the noise as it gets louder.

x2. This is a really good way to pinpoint noise locations. I've used a stethoscope several times at my shop for this exact reason.

EuroDriven
02-16-2011, 04:12 PM
CCT sound is completely different.. its a loud ticking opposed to his loud knocking.

Grab a really long screw driver and start putting it against parts of the motor and then put your ear on the handle of the screw driver (like a stethoscope) ... you will be able to track down the noise as it gets louder.

My point was how does the sound change as a CCT get worse and worse. IE slightly bad on its way out compared to it being bad for 1000s of miles.

JumboBlack1.8
02-16-2011, 04:19 PM
In other cases of Rod Knock that I've read about or listened to, the sound gets noticeably worse as RPMs increase.....in my motor, this is not the case. The rattle seems to fade slightly with increasing revs (still present, but not as loud as it is at idle)....I can provide far better analysis tomorrow when I have some time...

JumboBlack1.8
02-17-2011, 08:57 AM
I've done a few more tests today.......As suggested by my father's mechanic, with the car running, I went through disconnecting each coilpack to try to isolate which cylinder the noise might've been coming from. However, this yielded no conclusive results. Regardless of which coil I pulled, the noise remained.

I also tried using the long screwdriver (as a stethoscope) to try to hear what's going on, but I couldn't quite find anything definitive either (I may try finding a cheap REAL stethoscope later on today). Upon visual inspection, none of the pulleys appear to be bent, or unusually wobbly.

Unfortunately, I've got some errands to run, so I haven't gotten around to pulling the valve cover or changing the oil. Currently running Castrol Syntec 5w40 for around 400 miles (was running 10w40 before the noise.....so I may switch back if I don't find any metal bits in the oil).

EuroDriven
02-17-2011, 09:13 AM
I wonder if the oil weight could cause it? (Not really cause it, but just not masking it any more) I have read places about using higher weight oil for engines with higher clearances to avoid oil leaking through places (like crank seals), so you use a higher weight so it isn't as runny, (not sure if there is a change in viscosity with a change in weight).

csosnowski
02-17-2011, 10:42 AM
no to be the bearer or perpetuator of bad news but...sounds like rod knock to me.

One of my wife's previous cars, a honda, overheated and the rings stuck to the pistons. I pulled them and replaced the rings and the rod bearings. In the process I noticed that one of the rod journals had some 'slight' scoring as did the bearing. I cleaned it up with some emery cloth thinking that it would be fine. It wasnt, 300 miles later the rod ripped a hole in the side of the block.

Prior to the catastrophic failure, the motor developed a knock. At idle it was worse than at say ~1500-2000 rpm. At those speeds it was barely noticeable. Im hoping that this is not what youre dealing with, but its just a heads up-knock does not always get worse with increased engine speed.

I hope you figure it out soon and it is something silly. Good luck!

EuroDriven
02-17-2011, 11:49 AM
no to be the bearer or perpetuator of bad news but...sounds like rod knock to me.

Did you read any of the first page at all? A few other people have already been "the bearer of bad news" [:p]

I think he is already mentally prepared for the worst.

csosnowski
02-17-2011, 12:05 PM
Did you read any of the first page at all? A few other people have already been "the bearer of bad news" [:p]

I think he is already mentally prepared for the worst.

yeah, i just hate it when it is the crap end of the stick. lol

Scotty@Advanced
02-17-2011, 12:18 PM
you're going to need new rods and a new crank.

How much timing was it running at idle? I find this to be an odd explanation, as usually a ring land will go first.

If the bearing spun then you'll need new rods, but it's likely you will need a new crankshaft.

You can replace shells without removing the engine, or the head. However Haenszel20v is correct in that a piston, ring or wristpin will let go prior to a rod bearing (due to detonation) unless there is lack of lubrication.

But chances are high if you have a bad rod bearing you'll need a crankshaft and if the rod bearing spun you will need a new rod.

It could also be a wrist pin noise, or piston slap but most of those noises (including a rod bearing) will change with engine RPM. Could it be the cam chain slapping around?

JumboBlack1.8
02-17-2011, 01:13 PM
Just drained the oil.....and there wasn't a SPEC of metal......However, I'm gonna exercise caution in believing that this is a TOTAL relief.....I know that something is still awry. While the oil is out, I'm debating whether or not to try dropping the oil pan and checking the play on each rod (I'll save that project for tomorrow).

If there is something I can do before dropping the subframe and oil pan, where do you guys suggest I go from here?

JumboBlack1.8
02-18-2011, 06:16 AM
Anyone?

Just read the Bentley on Oil Pan removal, and it looks like I may need that engine hoist and load balancer a lot sooner that expected...Might as well pull the motor if it does come to that...

Audi Skate Snow
02-18-2011, 09:31 AM
with the car on jack stands have you tried getting under the car with the engine running to listen closer by the oil pan?

With the oil pan off you can easily just pop off the rod caps and inspect them.

JumboBlack1.8
02-18-2011, 09:47 AM
Yes, I did that yesterday. The noise did sound like it was coming from there.......I've begun scouring craigslist for an engine hoist and stand.....really hoping the damage isn't too bad...

Audi Skate Snow
02-18-2011, 11:01 AM
Yes, I did that yesterday. The noise did sound like it was coming from there.......I've begun scouring craigslist for an engine hoist and stand.....really hoping the damage isn't too bad...

yea it sucks when these things happen. Like I said I just replaced my crank and new bearings as well as whole new clutch kit. I pulled the motor out and put it on the stand since it is way easier to lay it down.

It might be something stupid hopefully. keep us posted. BTW i bought my stand for like 40 bucks at harbor freight.

JumboBlack1.8
02-18-2011, 11:07 AM
Just found a 2 ton engine hoist and stand on craigslist for $150. Bought years ago and used once. Been in storage since. Hoping to pick those up this weekend and have the motor pulled by Sunday.

Never done this before, but I've got a Bentley, patience, and a steady hand......though I'm discouraged by the amount of money I may have to spend to fix this, I'm excited that I finally get to dig into my motor.

lowandslow4now
02-18-2011, 12:31 PM
I haven't read the entire thread but I had a similar situation with a noise on isle and slowly tappering off as the revs increased. It turned out that a few of the bolts on the crank pulley came loose and caused a slight wobble witch sounded like a knock. I ended retightening the 4 bolts and it went away. Don't know it this helps but you can check it without pulling the motor.

Audi Skate Snow
02-18-2011, 01:06 PM
That I have seen at the dealership before. Customers bringing in car and the crank bolt backing out. It has also happen to a few people on the forum. Some lucky enough to catch it before its all the way out.

When you pull the motor it is fairly easy. If you have not done it before pull the motor with the trans attached to it.

Unbolt the front clip.
Disconnect all the harnesses. (if your uncertain where they go after put tape on them and mark what they went to)
Take off axles and drive shaft.
Remove slave cylinder and linkages
Unbolt the two lower motor mount nuts.
put the chain on and put tension on the motor by jacking it up.
unbolt the trans subframe (3 bolts each side)
Pull that bitch out. (of course there are a bunch of little steps I didnt list but that is the main stuff)

It took me 2 hours exactly almost the other day to pull the motor. It is pretty easy but just take your time and organize all your stuff so you dont get confused.

while the motor is out you can clean some stuff up also.

Also just a note since this happens a lot. Before you start pulling the motor out take the clip out of the coolant temp sensor. if the motor rocks and hits the fire wall it will break easily.

black99.5a4
02-18-2011, 01:16 PM
no need to pull the trans with the motor unless you need the trans out of the car too.. the motor is super easy to pull with leaving the trans in and all bell housing bolts are accessible.

Audi Skate Snow
02-18-2011, 01:53 PM
no need to pull the trans with the motor unless you need the trans out of the car too.. the motor is super easy to pull with leaving the trans in and all bell housing bolts are accessible.

If he hasnt done it it might be easier for him to pull it out all together. especially when he is putting it back in and trying to line the input shaft up with the block. Some people have some trouble with the top bolt but thats the first one I take out.

JumboBlack1.8
02-18-2011, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys. I'm heading out to pick up a 2-ton telescoping engine hoist and 1.5ton stand tonight. Listed earlier today on craigslist for $150! Pretty decent deal......I think I'm going to pull JUST the engine. I should have a few sets of hands around when it comes time to realign the block to the input shaft.

But, before I pull anything, I'll check my crank pulley bolts once I get the front clip removed (I'm about 2 bolts away from having it off).

black99.5a4
02-18-2011, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys. I'm heading out to pick up a 2-ton telescoping engine hoist and 1.5ton stand tonight. Listed earlier today on craigslist for $150! Pretty decent deal......I think I'm going to pull JUST the engine. I should have a few sets of hands around when it comes time to realign the block to the input shaft.

But, before I pull anything, I'll check my crank pulley bolts once I get the front clip removed (I'm about 2 bolts away from having it off).

We def all have different ways of doing it.

I have never had any problems with any of the bell housing bolts, but my tip to you is that when you get everything you can undone, remove the nuts on the top of the motor mounts and jack the motor up till the coolant housing on the back of the head just about touches the firewall, or slightly against it, so you can grab the 3 hidden bolts out of the oil pan into the bell housing, they have a hex head with an allen cut out in the middle.. the allen always seems to wanna round, so i just use a socket. Then you have 2 that go up through the oil pan into the motor, vertical, one on each side.

at that point, if everything else is off, she'll come out.

GL.

034Motorsport
02-18-2011, 05:06 PM
Unfortunately after reading all this and listening, sure sounds like a spun bearing to me.

Unfortunately, that is also one of the big risks with using programs such as Maestro; especially on your own. If you ever want to move beyond the limitations and annoyances of tuning the Motronic system, hit me up Jumbo. Our 034EFI system is incredibly easy to tune and comes with established and well tested custom basemap for your particular setup and goals and allows for all kinds of neat stuff.

Good luck. Feel free to hit me up if you need anything.

PS: Pull the engine. It's extremely easy compared to the B5 S4, and I pull my motor multiple times a year on average. You will save a ton of frustration, and you need to drain all your coolant and oil anyways so there isn't any additional cost (besides a cherry picker).

JumboBlack1.8
02-19-2011, 07:02 AM
Unfortunately, that is also one of the big risks with using programs such as Maestro; especially on your own. If you ever want to move beyond the limitations and annoyances of tuning the Motronic system, hit me up Jumbo. Our 034EFI system is incredibly easy to tune and comes with established and well tested custom basemap for your particular setup and goals and allows for all kinds of neat stuff.

Good luck. Feel free to hit me up if you need anything.


Thanks, I will definitely keep that in mind. Been contemplating getting a dyno tune....but I may stick it out with Maestro for a bit longer. I'm just starting to get the hang of it. Just wish my base file wasn't an utter piece of shit.....I didn't have enough time to correct its errors before the bearings went on me....*sigh*

Haenszel20v
02-19-2011, 07:13 AM
one last thing before you go crazy. Remove your serpentine belt and see if the noise is still there. I've run into a b6 that had a bad AC compressor that had a similar sound. It's a long shot, but its worth the 3 mins of work.

JumboBlack1.8
02-19-2011, 11:18 AM
Motor is almost out.....just gotta unbolt it from the tranny.

Checked the serp belt and accessories....all of it looks to be in good condition. The noise is definitely internal......I'll post some pics once I get the motor on a stand

ZimbutheMonkey
02-19-2011, 11:22 AM
I'm in agreement with Haenzel, it seems really odd that you managed to blow a rod just off idle. I'm going to bet that it's something a lot simpler than that. There's an old saying that I've leaned to live by after 18 years of twisting wrenches "when you hear hoofs on the prairie, don't look for Zebras".

Also, don't you have forged rods too? Assuming you haven't spun a bearing (since there are no metal fragments) how do you think that you managed to bend a forged rod just off idle? You'd blow part of the piston or piston rings before you'd bend a rod. Have you pulled your spark plugs and looked into the cylinder to see if there is evidence of detonation (pitting) on the piston head?

Before you rip your engine apart I'd rule everything else out first. I know what it's like to be a paranoid (some may say hypochondriac) car owner. However as a third party reading the facts, it just doesn't add up.

JumboBlack1.8
02-20-2011, 07:58 AM
UPDATE:

Spent the whole day yesterday pulling the motor (took my sweet ass time), and got it removed without a hitch. Despite the frigid cold, it was actually fun project! Thankfully I had a buddy come over to lend me a hand/drink beers with me throughout the day, so I had a relatively easy time getting it done.

Obligatory picture of the blank engine bay (never thought I'd see my car like this.....haha):
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1090.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1089.jpg

Now, this morning, after uninstalling the oil pan, I began checking the place on each of the rod bearings.....3 of 4 were fine....But cylinder 1 has considerably more lateral play, and makes a clicking sound as it moves, which appears to be the source of the click/rattle in the videos. With the rod bearing cap removed, neither the rod bearing nor the crank journal appear to be damaged.....(the crank journal still has a mirror shine). The lower rod bearing looks a BIT worn, but nothing major.....I still have to check the upper bearing, but I have yet to remove the head......I'm hopeful that I'll find similar results

Pics:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1091.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1092.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1093.jpg

If the top rod bearing checks out, I'll still be doing a minor rebuild......Calico coated rod and main bearings, reseal, clean block and re-hone, new piston rings, and maybe get the rotating assembly balanced. We'll see...

Haenszel20v
02-20-2011, 08:24 AM
There is no bearing in the wristpin. It's just a bronze bushing.

JumboBlack1.8
02-20-2011, 08:33 AM
There is no bearing in the wristpin. It's just a bronze bushing.

Uh....what?.....I never said anything about the wristpins.......I was referring to the rod bearings (the two pieces on either side of the crank journal)......Just got both pieces removed......No excessive wear....so that's good news

None of the bearings spun.

lowandslow4now
02-20-2011, 09:43 AM
I am glad you caught it early before it really went south. After you get it all back together are yo going to get the Maestro dyno tuned?

Haenszel20v
02-20-2011, 09:47 AM
Uh....what?.....I never said anything about the wristpins.......I was referring to the rod bearings (the two pieces on either side of the crank journal)......Just got both pieces removed......No excessive wear....so that's good news

None of the bearings spun.
you said you have yet to remove the head to get to the top bearing, which didn't make sense ** thus a point of confusion.

EuroDriven
02-20-2011, 10:03 AM
Make sure you use enough assembly lube when you put everything back together. I used just some engine oil on mine and managed to fuck a rod bearing up before even starting the engine.

I guess if you have the time then, start going around to everything on the engine and make sure everything is torqued to spec, to try to narrow down possibilities.

ZimbutheMonkey
02-20-2011, 12:38 PM
Although that #1 bearing looks like it could be your issue, the question is why? Your oil pickup looks clear and the engine is fairly fresh on a rebuild. I'll presume that the Maestro/detonation wasn't your issue though. So what is then?

JumboBlack1.8
02-20-2011, 12:40 PM
I am glad you caught it early before it really went south. After you get it all back together are yo going to get the Maestro dyno tuned?

Same. I'm so relieved that I don't have to spend close to $2k replacing this Eurospec rotating assembly (the PO apparently spent a low of coin getting the lightest weight stuff available)....As for Maestro, I'm not sure. I'm gonna give it another go, since I was SO close to having it right before this all happened.


you said you have yet to remove the head to get to the top bearing, which didn't make sense ** thus a point of confusion.

Gotcha. My mistake


Make sure you use enough assembly lube when you put everything back together. I used just some engine oil on mine and managed to fuck a rod bearing up before even starting the engine.

I guess if you have the time then, start going around to everything on the engine and make sure everything is torqued to spec, to try to narrow down possibilities.

So far, the only thing that wasn't torque'd or had any place was the cylinder 1 bearing. I plan on being very meticiulous/O-C-D about putting this engine back together

JumboBlack1.8
02-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Although that #1 bearing looks like it could be your issue, the question is why? Your oil pickup looks clear and the engine is fairly fresh on a rebuild. I'll presume that the Maestro/detonation wasn't your issue though. So what is then?

Good question.....it's possible that it wasn't properly torque'd upon installation......That's my uneducated guess

Schnauzerguy
02-20-2011, 01:07 PM
From experience when I built engines, check the side clearances of the rods to the crank. If these are new or re-done parts they may not be right.

Also check the clearances on each bearing lots of times now factory parts can vary and require bearings with +.001" etc. sizes to fit what should be

standard. We used to mic each journal, install the bearing shells to the rods and torque the caps and mic the big end to check clearance and then

still did a plastigage clearance check at assembly. It was always better to double check stuff that deep in the engine. I bought an engine rebuilt

by an amateur that would not turn at all after a fresh rebuild. Turned out the crank grinder ground the mains 0.010 and rods 0.020 and then supplied

the bearing the other way around. Fortunately when I pulled it apart and found that I got suspicious of the whole rebuild, turned out the guy did

not keep the rod caps matched so If I had blindly replaced bearings the thing would have failed almost immediately

black99.5a4
02-20-2011, 01:15 PM
eurospec is known to have worthless parts. Make sure you plasti-gauge it all when you put it back together. They might of only checked one and thought all the journals were good and that 1st journal is actually out of spec.. really hard to say.

JumboBlack1.8
02-20-2011, 01:58 PM
eurospec is known to have worthless parts. Make sure you plasti-gauge it all when you put it back together. They might of only checked one and thought all the journals were good and that 1st journal is actually out of spec.. really hard to say.

Just did some quick research on Eurospec......I had no idea.......When I get around to uninstalling the internals, I'll check all journals to make sure they're within spec....If not, I guess I'll start looking for an ABA crank.........This is a total surprise...

EuroDriven
02-20-2011, 02:43 PM
Although that #1 bearing looks like it could be your issue, the question is why? Your oil pickup looks clear and the engine is fairly fresh on a rebuild. I'll presume that the Maestro/detonation wasn't your issue though. So what is then?

Why would it cause that knocking noise though? I can see that it doesn't actually look as good as it should, but I can't imagine that causing knocking.

When I installed my rods, I used dial calipers to check all the journal sizes, torqued the rods caps on with the bearings in and checked the clearances in those too before I put everything together. All my clearances were within spec but I installed it wrong causing me problems.

Schnauzerguy
02-20-2011, 06:47 PM
Excessive side clearance on a rod can cause the knock (causes low oil pressure on that rod).

Shop I worked at had a Volvo 4 cylinder come with a spun rod, we had the crank built up and

ground, standard procedure on a, at that time, rare crank. The crank came back, we mic'd the

side clearance, thought it was excessive and contacted the crank grinder, he assured us it was

fine. We built the motor and it came back 2 weeks later with a rod knock. Our shop ate the

rebuild to our customer and split the costs with the crank grinder who re-welded the journal

and ground it, right that time.

EuroDriven
02-20-2011, 07:26 PM
Excessive side clearance on a rod can cause the knock (causes low oil pressure on that rod).

Shop I worked at had a Volvo 4 cylinder come with a spun rod, we had the crank built up and

ground, standard procedure on a, at that time, rare crank. The crank came back, we mic'd the

side clearance, thought it was excessive and contacted the crank grinder, he assured us it was

fine. We built the motor and it came back 2 weeks later with a rod knock. Our shop ate the

rebuild to our customer and split the costs with the crank grinder who re-welded the journal

and ground it, right that time.

So even being off by 0.001" could cause rod knock?

Schnauzerguy
02-20-2011, 08:15 PM
I do not know the clearances for this motor (did this stuff a really long time ago) but

early on the OP said the number one moved and clicked and the others did not

so I am guessing the side clearance may be off. The Bentley should have this in the specs.

Unfortunately as very smart man once told me "just 'cause it's new, don't mean it's good"

Audi Skate Snow
02-21-2011, 09:39 AM
Connecting rod clearances are .0003
Mains are .0003 as well.

I will look up side clearances.

JumboBlack1.8
02-21-2011, 06:53 PM
Been busy.....but I just got done removing all the pistons and rods. WithOUT measuring or weighing anything, there doesn't seem to be any apparent physical damage to any of the pistons, bearings, or journals......However, cylinder 1 did have a bit more play than the others, but nothing too excessive.

I have yet to remove the crank, but I'm thinking about sending it to a machine shop to check to see if it's straight.......I've read about some cases of these Eurospec cranks having the tendency to bend....but usually only under VERY heavy load.....If everything checks out, then I have NO idea why the car was making that noise......Could be failed piston rings? I don't know.......Anyway, I'll post some pics and another update when I get the chance

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 09:07 AM
Rings wouldn't make a noise like that. If anything your car would be smoking a bit with failed rings. And compression would be low.

Just to confirm... car was driving fine and then it did this out of now where? Or did you build and when starting it up your heard this noise? Hopefully it wasn't something else (well hope it is since it will be cheaper im sure) and you didn't pull this thing apart for nothing. I guess thats the name of the game though. Could have been flywheel noise.

Keep us posted I am interested.

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 09:13 AM
Quick question... the thrust washers are all intact correct?

JumboBlack1.8
02-22-2011, 10:19 AM
Yes, the car was running normally before the teardown, despite the noise. Still pulled strong.....no power loss.

I haven't removed the crankshaft yet, so I haven't inspected the thrust washers yet...I'll report back when I do. I've ordered a good set of digital dial calipers, so I'll be able to provide measurements so we can assess any potential wear.......as for the source of the noise, I'm pretty certain that the source was internal. With the car jacked in the air, and the engine running, I could definitely hear the sound emanating from the oil-pan area, not the flywheel. My GUESSES are that either crankshaft journals weren't ALL to spec, the rod bolts were improperly torque'd, OR (worst case) the crank is very slightly bent......but so far, I can't see much of ANY evidence that the motor was producing this noise.

One positive thing to take from this tear down is that I'll likely reassemble the motor with some better bearings, and possibly some piston skirt coating......we'll see

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 10:23 AM
So it was running before the tear down? Meaning before you built the motor and then upon start up after building you got this noise? Didn't drive around for a while then it started making the noise?

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 10:24 AM
For what is worth I built my old A4 Avant the first time using Eurospec parts. The head I got from the ended up being machine wrong and it kept throwing codes for the cam position sensor. It wasn't an OEM head.

JumboBlack1.8
02-22-2011, 10:26 AM
No no. I bought the car built a few months ago. It had 6k on the motor when I got it. It's got about 10-11k on it now. It started a few hundred miles after its last oil change

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 10:29 AM
ahhhh there we go. Ok hmmmmm. I couldn't see the crank being out of spec for that long and then making noise after 6k miles, but ya never know. I could see a bearing fail after that long though. No marks on the cyl walls or anything?

Did you inspect the trans input shaft? Just trying to rule out any of the easier things to replace that might be an issue.

JumboBlack1.8
02-22-2011, 11:16 AM
Yea......its a very curious situation.....I don't believe in the out of spec theory much, but I'll at least be able to rule it out with some measuring. Its possible that it COULD have bent, but cases of happening are rare. I'm thinking bearings were the issue. Some of the rods had a bit more lateral play than I was expecting.......everything else thus far has checked out

Audi Skate Snow
02-22-2011, 12:26 PM
That is my guess. Rod bearings, side clearance or mains out of spec. Well its apart now so I guess no big deal if they are.... well it is a big deal but at least youll take care of it.

JumboBlack1.8
02-22-2011, 05:08 PM
Finally got some pictures.....The only thing that APPEARS to be "damage" are some brown (burned oil marks???) on the rods and rod caps. Not sure what to make of this...Also, there was an excess of carbon on the tops of the pistons, but the car was running VERY rich for a while, only until recently (last 2k miles or so)
Hard to see in pictures
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1102.jpg

caps (more visible)
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1101.jpg

pistons after some light cleaning
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1095.jpg

What say you?

JumboBlack1.8
02-25-2011, 10:51 AM
Currently order some coated main bearings and thrust washers, rod bearings, new rings, and an ARP head stud kit (among other little things) to get this thing rebuilt. I'm thinking about honing the cylinders myself using methods from the video I posted on the 1st page......Also, I'm contemplating replacing only SOME of the belts, instead of all of the typical timing belt interval components (water pump, tensior, etc). Seeing that these components have roughly 10k of use, I find it hard to believe they were fail.....maybe I'm wrong tho

Anyway, I hope to have this thing back up and running in a week or so. Can't wait.....I REALLY miss driving it

Audi Skate Snow
02-25-2011, 10:59 AM
The way that he honed it in the video is fine. Just make sure to use like ATF and coat the sides as well as the ball hone when doing. And do consistent strokes while doing the fast and slow passes. Then be sure to wash the cylinders really well after to clear all debris.

If your belts are newish I wouldn't worry about replacing them.

This time around measure everything. Ring gaps, clearances etc. If you need any help feel free to PM me and I will shoot you my number if you need to call with any questions while doing all the work.

JumboBlack1.8
02-25-2011, 11:12 AM
I'll be asking a lot of questions when it comes time to reassemble this block.

And it appears you edited your post, but what about those marks would indicate clearance issues (not being rude....I'm genuinely curious to learn more about this)?

Audi Skate Snow
02-25-2011, 12:38 PM
I'll be asking a lot of questions when it comes time to reassemble this block.

And it appears you edited your post, but what about those marks would indicate clearance issues (not being rude....I'm genuinely curious to learn more about this)?

I actually didnt mean to delete it but had to run and was retyping it. just looks like there was some clearance issues. the marks look like burn marks almost.

JumboBlack1.8
02-25-2011, 01:08 PM
Pretty much exactly what I thought......they do look like burned oil spots....the metal itself isn't deformed or discolored. I'm not sure how well torqued the rod bolts were

Audi Skate Snow
02-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Pretty much exactly what I thought......they do look like burned oil spots....the metal itself isn't deformed or discolored. I'm not sure how well torqued the rod bolts were

Could be from poor engine build or maybe out of spec. if you still have the rods, crank and bearings you should check the clearance and see what it was at. just use plastigauge.

Audi Skate Snow
02-27-2011, 05:58 PM
Any update?

JumboBlack1.8
02-27-2011, 06:17 PM
Unfortunately not. I may not have an update until a week or so. I'm placing a big order at 034 tomorrow (waiting to hear back from Max) and I'm ordering a very good, reliable digital torque wrench to get the job done as precisely as possible.

I'm also doing a fair amount of research on engine blueprinting and assembly, seeing that this is my first build......I don't want to have to do this all over again because I overlooked something

JumboBlack1.8
02-27-2011, 07:25 PM
For anyone interested in engine building or general machining, check out this video series.....it's terrific:
http://www.v8.comze.com/

Audi Skate Snow
02-28-2011, 08:28 AM
Nice man! Take your time and hit us up with any questions.

JumboBlack1.8
02-28-2011, 01:56 PM
Mini update:

Just spent a good bit of money ordering some new parts for the engine refresh. BIG thanks to Max@034 for helping me through the process. To any who has any needs or questions regarding their motor or build project, I highly recommend talking with Max and the guys at 034 before you place an order.

Order list:
Coated Main and Rod bearings w/ thrust washers
ARP 10mm Head Stud Kit
new JE Piston Ring set
034 Silicone Coolant Hose (mine are worn and leaking slightly)
Track Density Motor Mounts
OEM head gasket + T3 turbo exhaust gaskets
Phenolic IM spacer kit

I've still got to order and engine block gasket kit (seen here: http://www.germanautoparts.com/Audi/A4/Engine/101/1), and possibly a new oil pump (I THINK the current one might be the original unit with over 130k miles)......I've also ordered a VERY nice calibrated digital torque wrench (lots of $$$) to get the torque specs dialed in as PRECISELY as possible.....And I also hope to either rent or purchase a decent dial bore gauge to check the cylinder bores, main, and rod caps for trueness before final assembly.

There are a few more assembly items I need to purchase (assembly lube, Plasti-gauge, ring expander, some deck cleaner, a cylinder hone tool, etc), but, based on that list, is there anything MAJOR that I'm forgetting??

Audi Skate Snow
02-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Nice! Good to hear man. It's all exciting but a pain in the ass at the same time. It's funny all the assembly items end up costing more than the parts. ahah.

JumboBlack1.8
02-28-2011, 02:10 PM
^^Ha, seriously.....I was STUNNED at the cost of a digital torque wrench.....just inSANE. I'm trying to decide whether or not to buy a micrometer set, and some other precision measuring tools, but I can't justify spending ALL that money on tools that I only PLAN to use once........Good GOD this is all expensive...

flynnr
02-28-2011, 03:12 PM
off topic, but i have the same air intake setup as you... a filter connected to my turbo... do you think this is a bad idea at all? since its probably scooping in fairly hot air?

JumboBlack1.8
02-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Worrying about your air intake is a complete and utter waste of time, IMO. The filter is there to prevent debris from entering your turbo and damaging the compressor wheel......If you are concerned with lowering your IAT's, focus on improving your intercooler setup, or adding water/meth to cool things down......Otherwise, a simple filter is fine

flynnr
02-28-2011, 03:21 PM
Thats what i was hoping youd say! thanks!

Audi Skate Snow
02-28-2011, 03:51 PM
^^Ha, seriously.....I was STUNNED at the cost of a digital torque wrench.....just inSANE. I'm trying to decide whether or not to buy a micrometer set, and some other precision measuring tools, but I can't justify spending ALL that money on tools that I only PLAN to use once........Good GOD this is all expensive...

Yea that stuff gets expensive. I was getting 55% off on snap on tools so I stocked up on a bunch of parts. Micrometers are awesome to have though... the digital micrometers are awesome as well but some say they need calibration all the time.

My Snap on TQ wrench isn't digital and it was still super expensive.

ZimbutheMonkey
02-28-2011, 04:17 PM
off topic, but i have the same air intake setup as you... a filter connected to my turbo... do you think this is a bad idea at all? since its probably scooping in fairly hot air?

I made a cone filter type setup, but I made a partition out of sheet metal and heat reflective tape. It worked very well.
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/CAI012.jpg
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/CAI016.jpg

I also put the rest of the reflective tape on my MAF housing and inlet pipe.
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/IMG_3812.jpg

JumboBlack1.8
03-01-2011, 02:28 PM
^^^^Very easy to do when you have a stock location turbo...I had something similar on my avant with a K03.....But unfortunately, neither flynn nor myself has one.....so like I said, a cone filter on a MAF-less car works fine....


Anyway.........I painted my valve cover last night after work. Nothing too crazy. I can't stand the bright/neon color thing....Went with royal blue.......I was bored.....I HATE waiting for parts......I'm too damn impatient
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG00045-20110301-1519.jpg

Gonna be painting my FMIC with some Eastwood Radiator Black later this week.....Hopefully gonna start the REAL nitty gritty next week

JumboBlack1.8
03-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Small Update

Here's what I've gotten accomplished so far:
Cleaned the block
Cleaned the deck of remnants of the head gasket
Began resealing the block
Painted my FMIC black w/ Eastwood Radiator black paint

All my parts from 034 should be arriving on Friday afternoon. Tial Q BOV will be here tomorrow (unsure if I'm even gonna use this, as I may be installing an MAF)..

I do have one last question. I'm not sure which flex hone tool to buy. It seems that I'll need the 3 1/4" tool (works for 77-83.5mm bores), but I'm unsure which grit I need. Stock rings need 180, but JE piston rings are a different composite material........Any had any experience with these rings? I'm assuming I need a very fine grit...

Audi Skate Snow
03-07-2011, 05:43 PM
hmmm good question. Let me find out for ya and I will post up. Give me a bit.

JumboBlack1.8
03-07-2011, 06:00 PM
Word. You're a big help, man

Audi Skate Snow
03-07-2011, 09:27 PM
im getting two answers... 180 or 240. i would do 180.

JumboBlack1.8
03-08-2011, 06:11 AM
Hm.......Thats interesting.....If you don't mind me asking, who's giving you these answers? I've gotten some conflicting info......I"m being told that I need a finer grit. 320 to be exact.....

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5216861-New-JE-Piston-Rings-Ball-Hone-Which-Grit

JumboBlack1.8
03-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Spoke with Max@034 about this......he recommends going with 180 grit, so I'll be ordering the tool later on tonight

Got a new toy in the mail today:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1103.jpg

It's a Tial Q Blow Off Valve with a 10psi spring. This is a LONG overdue upgrade to the hotside-mounted Forge 004 that I've had for a while. I was beyond sick of the flutter when the TB closed.....so, can't wait

Also cleaned and lubed the pistons and rods, and I lightly cleaned and polished the crank journals (I researched exactly how to DIY it....found some good tutorials):

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1111.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1104.jpg

Lastly,

Upon inspection, my clutch really doesn't look good (to my untrained eye). The material on the pressure plate side had evidence of several hot spots. Also, the material is noticeably more worn than the flywheel side......
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1108.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1109.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1110.jpg

I found a local seller that's got a new 240mm CM FX400 6-puck disc for sale. However, it doesn't come with a pressure plate.....At the risk of sounding really stupid, is it possible to run that disc in a Spec Stg3+ pressure plate?

ZimbutheMonkey
03-09-2011, 09:13 PM
Why not get another SPEC clutch disk? Or just put that one back in? Truth be told it doesn't look that bad from the shots you took. I'm running the same setup and I love the engagement and driveability. I don't know how the CM stacks up though. But if it ain't broke, why fix it?

flynnr
03-09-2011, 09:57 PM
how much was the Q?

JumboBlack1.8
03-10-2011, 05:53 AM
Cheapest price I've found:
http://www.clubrsx.com/cr/TIA-BOVQ.html

I'll ride this clutch out for a bit longer....But I'm definitely not getting another Spec product after this.....I've read far too many horror stories. I'll definitely be getting a CM fx400 for my next setup

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 07:45 AM
Finally, a REAL update:

I've begun the final installation......so far, I've honed the cylinder walls, and installed crankshaft and front seal. The radial clearances on the crank journals all checked out to around .002 inches (or between .04-05mm), which is on the high end of "new" bearing clearances, according to the bentley manual.

For axial clearance, what exactly am I measuring here? Is it the front-to-back movement of the crank?

Also, does anyone have an alternative method to gapping piston rings? I still haven't bought a piston ring filer....

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 08:47 AM
I have a piston ring filer... to be honest it is the biggest pain of the whole process. takes a while to file each one perfect. What specs are you going to go with for rings?

I did .020 for first and .022 for second ring.

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 08:57 AM
I haven't done the calculations yet, but I plan on opening them up a bit, as my setup will be making upwards of 400whp.

I had originally planned to borrow the filer from a local, but it turns out he doesn't have one........So, it looks like progress has come to a halt, until I can find one. I've done research on the hand-file method and I REALLY don't trust it.

Also, still looking tips on measuring axial clearance.....And how do those oil clearance values look?

Haenszel20v
03-15-2011, 09:05 AM
have you even measured the gaps yet? I bet they're already big and don't need to be filed.

ZimbutheMonkey
03-15-2011, 09:07 AM
I'll ride this clutch out for a bit longer....But I'm definitely not getting another Spec product after this.....I've read far too many horror stories. I'll definitely be getting a CM fx400 for my next setup

Ummm, and there haven't been horror stories about Clutchmasters [confused]



PS: I'm still waiting on someone to show me any significant numbers of failures after 2007.

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 09:28 AM
have you even measured the gaps yet? I bet they're already big and don't need to be filed.

For sure measure first. BTW .020 and .022 will work great for 400whp. Most of us B6 guys run these specs with built motors.

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Ummm, and there haven't been horror stories about Clutchmasters [confused]

PS: I'm still waiting on someone to show me any significant numbers of failures after 2007.

Settle down


For sure measure first. BTW .020 and .022 will work great for 400whp. Most of us B6 guys run these specs with built motors.

Unfortunately, the ring ends are overlapping a bit, so unfortunately I need to grind them down quite a lot to get them to spec. I'll take your advice and shoot for .020 for the top ring, and .022 for the 2nd ring

EuroDriven
03-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Ummm, and there haven't been horror stories about Clutchmasters [confused]

Can you give us links to some of these horror stories? I am in need of a good read.

ZimbutheMonkey
03-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Settle down

Just to be clear, I'm not really aiming this one at you. However there's a bit of a lemming mentality here regarding what people buy. If there are legitimate concerns about a product's reliability then I'm all ears and I appreciate the heads up. However if everybody jumped ship to clutch X because clutch Y had a bunch of failures 4 years ago, but then clutch X gets their act together and offers a decent product I don't think that they should be unnecessarily prejudiced by assertions that don't have any basis in recent fact.

John, here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/411942-***Public-Service-Announcement-Clutch-Masters-has-disappointed-for-the-last-time***
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/313930-nein-reis-s-3.0-to-1.8T-BT-build-thread.?p=5933289&styleid=12&styleid=8

As far as I know AudiSkate Snow has had 5 seperate CM failures as evidenced in post #34
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/415916-Alright-I-blew-up-my-motor.-Lets-rebuild.

B6lovin's comments in post #80 and 7speeds clutch fusing within 500 miles
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/305761-SPA-GT3071r-Build-Thread/page2

Now, in all fairness I think that I need to point out that Mike at Ringer Racing does a really good job of making sure that people are taken care of. So bear that in mind. However my point is that there are a number of documented premature CM failures. As far as I'm concerned my time is worth money. Having to pull a trans is a PITA and having to spend the time to do it and having my car down is a cost that a warranty cannot replace. So replacement time is money spent in my mind.

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 01:35 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not really aiming this one at you. However there's a bit of a lemming mentality here regarding what people buy. If there are legitimate concerns about a product's reliability then I'm all ears and I appreciate the heads up. However if everybody jumped ship to clutch X because clutch Y had a bunch of failures 4 years ago, but then clutch X gets their act together and offers a decent product I don't think that they should be unnecessarily prejudiced by assertions that don't have any basis in recent fact.

John, here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/411942-***Public-Service-Announcement-Clutch-Masters-has-disappointed-for-the-last-time***
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/313930-nein-reis-s-3.0-to-1.8T-BT-build-thread.?p=5933289&styleid=12&styleid=8

As far as I know AudiSkate Snow has had 5 seperate CM failures as evidenced in post #34
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/415916-Alright-I-blew-up-my-motor.-Lets-rebuild.

B6lovin's comments in post #80 and 7speeds clutch fusing within 500 miles
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/305761-SPA-GT3071r-Build-Thread/page2

Now, in all fairness I think that I need to point out that Mike at Ringer Racing does a really good job of making sure that people are taken care of. So bear that in mind. However my point is that there are a number of documented premature CM failures. As far as I'm concerned my time is worth money. Having to pull a trans is a PITA and having to spend the time to do it and having my car down is a cost that a warranty cannot replace. So replacement time is money spent in my mind.

It is true... i have had some issues. Clutch Masters and Mike hood have been awesome about handling the situations though. Haven't beat on the new one I have in now. I am at about 300 miles on the break in. But no issues so far.

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Unfortunately, the ring ends are overlapping a bit, so unfortunately I need to grind them down quite a lot to get them to spec. I'll take your advice and shoot for .020 for the top ring, and .022 for the 2nd ring

Yea my rings were overlapping as well. had to file all of the rings. Just take your time and do a little at a time. File it then put in the freshly honed block, take top of the piston and push it down to square it up. Then measure.

It is a pain in the ass doing all of them and it gets real tiring ahah.

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 01:55 PM
How badly were yours overlapping? I'm beginning to think I ordered the wrong size......I order 83mm pistons, after reading through the previous owner's build thread and parts list.....I did so without doing any measurements myself......I think the bore is closer to 82 or 82.5mm [headbang][facepalm].............

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 02:25 PM
How badly were yours overlapping? I'm beginning to think I ordered the wrong size......I order 83mm pistons, after reading through the previous owner's build thread and parts list.....I did so without doing any measurements myself......I think the bore is closer to 82 or 82.5mm [headbang][facepalm].............

I thought the same thing so I double checked. OEM rings should come to exact OEM spec but they didnt. i tripple checked the part # and they were just overlapping. ( i am still 1.8)

Good point. However the rings are ordered based of the size of the piston you have. So if you ordered the rings for your pistons then you should be good to go.

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 03:33 PM
I somehow overlooked this picture in the PO's build thread:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/ltortora/2009-11-13180250.jpg

Apparently the cylinders/pistons (not sure what those measurements are in reference to) are ~ 3.244 inches, which comes out to about 82.4mm........Furthermore, I just measured the pistons, and they come out to about 81.6mm....Regrettably, I ordered 83mm rings, and I didn't MEASURE these parts myself before ordering......wtFFF [headbang][headbang]

I'm a little upset.......

ZimbutheMonkey
03-15-2011, 05:45 PM
Shitty deal dude, if it's any consolation I'm sure that any one of us here can remember a moment like that. So don't take it too hard. Also, does that mean that they just put in stroker pistons and left the bore at stock dimensions??? Also, what kind of compression ratio are those pistons?

ZimbutheMonkey
03-15-2011, 05:52 PM
It is true... i have had some issues. Clutch Masters and Mike hood have been awesome about handling the situations though. Haven't beat on the new one I have in now. I am at about 300 miles on the break in. But no issues so far.

Which is why I took the time to mention that. From what I've seen, Mike is pretty good about standing behind his stuff. Unfortunately this seems to be more of a rarity than a constant among vendors. So I have to give credit where credit is due. Although I know Mike can get custom stuff made, he's not the one in charge of the regular stuff that comes out of CM. So no point in blaming him by proxy. Also, not saying that CM is bad per-se. It's just that they're not infallible either.

Anyway, enough about that, Jumbo, hope that you get your replacement rings soon and get things back on track. Maybe since you have a little down time it'd be a good idea to double check some of the other stuff that you're working on. Not implying that you need to, but it's always a good idea. I've made more than a few critical saves that way.

JumboBlack1.8
03-15-2011, 06:24 PM
Thanks man. I'm gonna get in touch with Max@034 tomorrow to discuss either a return or a new purchase. Hopefully I can get them this week.

While I've got the motor out, I've been taking care of a bunch of stuff. This lil hickup will give me the opportunity to take care of some engine harness wiring (need to wire in resistors for the various system deletes), install my new VEI gauge, weld up my BOV flange, and detail the engine bay.........so so so much to do

Audi Skate Snow
03-15-2011, 07:28 PM
Thanks man. I'm gonna get in touch with Max@034 tomorrow to discuss either a return or a new purchase. Hopefully I can get them this week.

While I've got the motor out, I've been taking care of a bunch of stuff. This lil hickup will give me the opportunity to take care of some engine harness wiring (need to wire in resistors for the various system deletes), install my new VEI gauge, weld up my BOV flange, and detail the engine bay.........so so so much to do

Nice... see making something good of the situation! Don't worry about the rings... at least you caught it before you went to town filing them down. I just replaced my coilpack harness with the 034 one.. exspensive but its clean.

ZimbutheMonkey
03-15-2011, 10:34 PM
Thanks man. I'm gonna get in touch with Max@034 tomorrow to discuss either a return or a new purchase. Hopefully I can get them this week.

While I've got the motor out, I've been taking care of a bunch of stuff. This lil hickup will give me the opportunity to take care of some engine harness wiring (need to wire in resistors for the various system deletes), install my new VEI gauge, weld up my BOV flange, and detail the engine bay.........so so so much to do

Yeah it never stops does it.

JumboBlack1.8
03-16-2011, 07:46 AM
Yeah it never stops does it.

It'll end when my bank account is bone dry...........regrettably, that point is fast approaching....[=(]

JumboBlack1.8
03-20-2011, 12:25 PM
Update:

Got the new rings from JE (via Max@034) on Friday, and finally got to work yesterday. The engine is about 90% assembled....just need to finish bolting up the accessories, then the clutch assembly (need to pick up some new flywheel bolts from the dealer).

For the precision stuff.....I went with a .020" gap for my top compression ring, and ~.024" for the bottom rings (my hand wasn't as steady as I would've liked, but I'm hoping the slightly larger gap won't have too many adverse side effects....).

My crank journal oil clearances were .002" across all 5 journals. And axial play was within spec.

Rod journals were between .001-.0015", well within spec.

Next on the to-do list:
Weld tial bov flange to cold side piping
Install 4 300ohm .5watt resistors to engine harness (to restore fuel adaption)
Mock up a 4" intake
Various other small things

Shitty cell pic.....real photos later
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG00050-20110320-1508.jpg

ZimbutheMonkey
03-20-2011, 01:57 PM
Good man, now git 'er together [wrench]

JumboBlack1.8
03-20-2011, 07:19 PM
I really need a DSLR......This camera isn't cutting it....

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1112.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1120.jpg

034 coolant lines......GREAT stuff
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1118.jpg

4" intake........Not sure how I'm gonna accomplish this.....especially with a 4" MAF housing (which I have yet to buy...)
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1119.jpg

Also.....for those that're curious.......this is the MAF I plan on using:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAF-4-HOUSING-VW-GTI-JETTA-GOLF-R32-PASSAT-AUDI-NISSAN-/260686431771?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cb21f461b

Audi Skate Snow
03-21-2011, 02:51 PM
nice... looks good man! Make sure to tq down the knock sensors properly. I just mention it because some other guys have problems lately with it.

14.75 ft lbs.

JumboBlack1.8
03-21-2011, 03:17 PM
Thanks! I was thinking about retorquing the knock sensors tonight......but I kinda wanted to leave them alone....And, the last time I checked, I believe they need 17 ft/lbs.....gotta double-check that later

Audi Skate Snow
03-22-2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks! I was thinking about retorquing the knock sensors tonight......but I kinda wanted to leave them alone....And, the last time I checked, I believe they need 17 ft/lbs.....gotta double-check that later

yep check em for sure otherwise you will be scratching your head for false timing pull ahah.

Nice job so far man!

JumboBlack1.8
03-22-2011, 09:41 AM
The more I read and research, the less confident I feel......I think I'm gonna go back and retorque a few things....

What methods do you guys have for torquing the crankshaft gear? The Bentley calls for 60 ft/lbs + a 90* turn. I've got mine on there pretty good, but I want to be as precise as possible......Any tips? I was thinking of asking a buddy to hold the gear in place with a padded channel lock, then torque it to spec....

Also, I'm worried about my timing not being SPOT on....I'll snap some pics when I get a chance.

As I get closer to being "done", I'm worrying about the quality of my work more and more....haha

Ketamine1
03-22-2011, 10:05 AM
I really need a DSLR......This camera isn't cutting it....

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1112.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1120.jpg

034 coolant lines......GREAT stuff
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1118.jpg

4" intake........Not sure how I'm gonna accomplish this.....especially with a 4" MAF housing (which I have yet to buy...)
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1119.jpg

Also.....for those that're curious.......this is the MAF I plan on using:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAF-4-HOUSING-VW-GTI-JETTA-GOLF-R32-PASSAT-AUDI-NISSAN-/260686431771?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cb21f461b

It's not always the camera. My favorite pic I took with a 100 dollar walmart camera.

JumboBlack1.8
03-22-2011, 10:12 AM
True....but this camera simply isn't capable of taking the pictures that I want

Audi Skate Snow
03-22-2011, 10:25 AM
The more I read and research, the less confident I feel......I think I'm gonna go back and retorque a few things....

What methods do you guys have for torquing the crankshaft gear? The Bentley calls for 60 ft/lbs + a 90* turn. I've got mine on there pretty good, but I want to be as precise as possible......Any tips? I was thinking of asking a buddy to hold the gear in place with a padded channel lock, then torque it to spec....

Also, I'm worried about my timing not being SPOT on....I'll snap some pics when I get a chance.

As I get closer to being "done", I'm worrying about the quality of my work more and more....haha

I have the Audi tool that holds the front crank gear while you tighten it. you can rig something up to hold it in place. use two of the 6mm allen bolts that hold the gear on to the crank and rig something up to stop it from turning. I always put loctite on mine just to be safe then do 60lbs plus 90 degree turn.

Just take your time... timing the motor is really easy. If you need some help call me and I can give you a few pointers to make sure it is spot on.

Ketamine1
03-23-2011, 10:16 AM
True....but this camera simply isn't capable of taking the pictures that I want


Play around with the lighting, and computer editing. Even photobucket has basic editing software. I got a D5000, I'll trade it for your straight up, won't even take money off for paperweight of a motor. ;) lol Sick car and good luck with it.

Haenszel20v
03-23-2011, 10:23 AM
use a regular open-end wrench to pin the flyhweel from moving between an old flywheel bolt(in the crank) and a trans->engine bolt. If you angle it right you will not be able to turn the crank at all.

Edit: I drew a pic but i cna't upload it at work :(

JumboBlack1.8
03-23-2011, 11:17 AM
That is a great idea! I'll give it a shot when I get a chance. Hadn't even thought of that!

Haenszel20v
03-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Glad to help.

Audi Skate Snow
03-24-2011, 08:13 AM
use a regular open-end wrench to pin the flyhweel from moving between an old flywheel bolt(in the crank) and a trans->engine bolt. If you angle it right you will not be able to turn the crank at all.

Edit: I drew a pic but i cna't upload it at work :(

This is another way. you can get a chain and put the chain on one flywheel bolt and one trans bolt and it wont turn. Good call. This is how I do my flywheel bolts with motor still in the car. Actually I put the flywheel on and then use one of the PP bolts on one end of the chain and the other on the trans bolt.

JumboBlack1.8
03-24-2011, 09:36 AM
Thanks for suggesting that I retorque my knock sensors.......When I checked them, my digital wrench as telling me they were set to around 11ft/lbs, which could be the explanation behind some of the VERY odd timing pull numbers that I as logging. Both sensors are currently torqued to 14.7ft/lbs (20Nm).

As for my issues with timing motor, I think I might've gotten it spot on. There are actually TWO marks on my crank pulley for TDC that were confusing me. The first is the OEM mark closest to the block. The second appears to be a spec of White Out on the second ring that as placed there by the PO's engine builder. I used the second mark....I'll snap a picture later

JumboBlack1.8
03-27-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm getting there slowly but surely.......However, I hit ANOTHER small snag. I managed to break the plastic coolant flange at the back of the head when the engine decided to SWING on me as I was hooking it up to the engine hoist. So, I've gotta wait a few days for a new one to be deliver.

The last part to install is the clutch and pressure plate. I reinstalled the flywheel using the 10.9-strength Spec hardware using some loctite. However, I torqued things down to 60ft/lbs, but when I tried to ad the 180* turn (per Bentley spec), the bolts would hardly budge past 30*. Is this is a result of non-stretch bolts requiring different torque specs?

EDIT

Apparently the flywheel bolts require 44ft/lbs (60Nm) + 1/4 turn.......NOT 60ft/lbs

Audi Skate Snow
03-27-2011, 07:18 PM
I'm getting there slowly but surely.......However, I hit ANOTHER small snag. I managed to break the plastic coolant flange at the back of the head when the engine decided to SWING on me as I was hooking it up to the engine hoist. So, I've gotta wait a few days for a new one to be deliver.

The last part to install is the clutch and pressure plate. I reinstalled the flywheel using the 10.9-strength Spec hardware using some loctite. However, I torqued things down to 60ft/lbs, but when I tried to ad the 180* turn (per Bentley spec), the bolts would hardly budge past 30*. Is this is a result of non-stretch bolts requiring different torque specs?

EDIT

Apparently the flywheel bolts require 44ft/lbs (60Nm) + 1/4 turn.......NOT 60ft/lbs

stock bolts or a company flyhwel bolts?

JumboBlack1.8
03-27-2011, 08:05 PM
Spec bolts, not OEM

Audi Skate Snow
03-27-2011, 08:56 PM
they should have their own torque specs... dont go off the OEM ones. my CM tq specs are 65 ft lbs.

Poopie
03-27-2011, 09:32 PM
hey since you got it all apart, take pics on how you have you deleted evap, n249, and sai if you did any of that. I'm trying to tidy up my engine bay and these DBW motors have so much more crap then the AEBs

JumboBlack1.8
03-28-2011, 07:42 AM
I torqued them down to about 65ft/lbs as well.....They won't budge anymore.

I'll snap some pictures of the engine bay later today. The previous owner pulled all the evap, sai, N112, and N249 sensors and equipment. But, he never soldered in the necessary resistors to restore fuel adaptivity. Without those resistors, block 031 and 032 had remained blank, making it a bit more difficult to dial in my fueling via Maestro. I'll be 5 330ohm 1/2 watt resistors

Audi Skate Snow
03-28-2011, 10:37 AM
I torqued them down to about 65ft/lbs as well.....They won't budge anymore.

I'll snap some pictures of the engine bay later today. The previous owner pulled all the evap, sai, N112, and N249 sensors and equipment. But, he never soldered in the necessary resistors to restore fuel adaptivity. Without those resistors, block 031 and 032 had remained blank, making it a bit more difficult to dial in my fueling via Maestro. I'll be 5 330ohm 1/2 watt resistors

Should be good with the loctite on there.. just make sure they are manufacture spec on the TQ. Sounds like things are going well though. Nice!

JumboBlack1.8
03-28-2011, 10:42 AM
One last question.......what should I be looking to pay to have my BOV flange welded on. I've called a few places locally, and they're quoting some pretty high prices. Lowest I've gotten so far is $130..........sounds ridiculous to me

Audi Skate Snow
03-28-2011, 02:47 PM
One last question.......what should I be looking to pay to have my BOV flange welded on. I've called a few places locally, and they're quoting some pretty high prices. Lowest I've gotten so far is $130..........sounds ridiculous to me

Drill the hole yourself and take it somewhere... shouldn't be more than 50 bucks when you show them what you want.

JumboBlack1.8
03-28-2011, 03:10 PM
Got it drilled and welded at an Evo/STI shop about 15mins from my house. Cost me $80. I wasn't too upset with the price.......Otherwise, I hope to get the motor dropped in tomorrow evening. Hopefully I'll be turning the key by Wednesday afternoon

JumboBlack1.8
03-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Almost there.....
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1132.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1127.jpg

Audi Skate Snow
03-29-2011, 09:41 PM
Nice man! Congrats! looks clean in there.

nagle10
03-30-2011, 07:20 AM
Is it me or are your coolant lines backwards?

Haenszel20v
03-30-2011, 07:24 AM
I don't think it really matters. its just flowing through the housing, not into a bearing cartridge.

Dan[FN]6262
03-30-2011, 07:37 AM
[up]

JumboBlack1.8
03-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Ok.....I need some help.....I totally forget how to wire up the starter. It's bolted into place, but there are a number of what appear to be ground lines at or around it.

The bentley isn't helping me with this.......This is the only part that I cant distinctly remember removing.....

dougyfresh
03-30-2011, 04:24 PM
Is it me or are your coolant lines backwards?

As Haenszel said.. It doesn't matter on Garrett GT turbos. The coolant passage is a flow-through.





I somehow overlooked this picture in the PO's build thread:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/ltortora/2009-11-13180250.jpg

Apparently the cylinders/pistons (not sure what those measurements are in reference to) are ~ 3.244 inches, which comes out to about 82.4mm........Furthermore, I just measured the pistons, and they come out to about 81.6mm....Regrettably, I ordered 83mm rings, and I didn't MEASURE these parts myself before ordering......wtFFF [headbang][headbang]

I'm a little upset.......

Little late to this. Just saw and read the thread now. No wonder you were asking for a ring filer.

What is the measurement of your bore and your pistons? Did you replace the pistons or used the ones that were in the engine prior?

I ask because excessive skirt to wall clearance can rear its ugly head further down the road. However, it will make an increasing noise with RPM which I don't think yours was doing.

JumboBlack1.8
03-30-2011, 04:42 PM
IIRC, the size of the pistons was roughly 81.6-81.7mm (I'll look for the exact measurements that I wrote down, but I'm pretty sure those numbers are accurate), and the bore itself was around 82.4-82.45mm.....I too was worried about the skirt-to-wall clearance being too wide, but I'm unaware of the ill effects it can have?

As for the noise......after doing extensive research, it is my belief that some of the fasteners weren't put through the necessary amount of torque cycles before final torquing, causing some of them to shake loose when I switched to a lighter oil......I have no proof of that, but it's just a hunch

dougyfresh
03-30-2011, 05:18 PM
IIRC, the size of the pistons was roughly 81.6-81.7mm (I'll look for the exact measurements that I wrote down, but I'm pretty sure those numbers are accurate), and the bore itself was around 82.4-82.45mm.....I too was worried about the skirt-to-wall clearance being too wide, but I'm unaware of the ill effects it can have?


Those numbers are anywhere from 0.00275" to 0.00335" (inch) of piston skirt to cylinder wall clearance.

I believe most pistons in these motors call for around 0.003" to 0.0033" of clearance. I know Supertech and CP do. You should be okay.



If the clearance is too wide you will do a number of things.
a) introduce unwanted knock and the knock sensors will pick up on it and you will have to run low timing advance
b) parts are moving around too much so they will wear prematurely
c) hot exhaust gases will beat on those rings quicker and they will wear faster (see b)

and a whole host of other things...

JumboBlack1.8
03-30-2011, 05:32 PM
Thanks Doug,.....now you've got me all nervous.....haha......I really do hope those numbers were accurate.....

JumboBlack1.8
03-31-2011, 05:57 AM
Any help with the starter?....

dougyfresh
03-31-2011, 10:15 AM
Ok.....I need some help.....I totally forget how to wire up the starter. It's bolted into place, but there are a number of what appear to be ground lines at or around it.

The bentley isn't helping me with this.......This is the only part that I cant distinctly remember removing.....

going off memory here as I just installed a new starter in my car last month...


Big honking wire goes to the alternator I think. it wraps around the back of the motor.

I think there's also another larger wire that connects to that same terminal on the starter. that one comes from the battery.

Small wire goes to the solenoid. This is the switching wire that is tied to your ignition switch.

There's another wire that grounds the engine from the engine mount to the frame.

JumboBlack1.8
03-31-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks doug. I did some research earlier today and found my answer. You were spot on tho!

I've got about 99% of the engine buttoned up. All I have to do is connect the lower radiator coolant hose (it was leaking as I poured in coolant, so I have to re-seat it), and I'll be ready for the big moment......I'm very nervous, but I've got faith in the quality of my work. I know I did everything in my pour to be as meticulous and careful as I possibly could.....Unfortunately, it started raining here, and we're expecting a SNOW STORM (WTF, isn't it supposed to be SPRING?!?!?!), so I had to stop working on it until the weather lets up....Hopefully I can get to it tomorrow (or even tonight, if the rain stops)....Wish me LUCK!

Here's how she looks at the moment:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG00056-20110331-1724.jpg

ZimbutheMonkey
03-31-2011, 05:27 PM
Stay the course man, stay the course.

JumboBlack1.8
04-01-2011, 05:18 PM
What do you guys recommend for engine break in? I was going to loosely follow this:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Also, what about oil change intervals? Currently running SAE 30 non-detergent oil for break in.......and will switch to 10w40 once the rings are seated...

viceprp
04-01-2011, 05:38 PM
Looking forward to your results. I'm doing something almost identical without the 2.0 bore.

CamrideA4
04-01-2011, 06:01 PM
What do you guys recommend for engine break in? I was going to loosely follow this:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Also, what about oil change intervals? Currently running SAE 30 non-detergent oil for break in.......and will switch to 10w40 once the rings are seated...

Sounds like a good plan. I know lots of people that swear by the "run it hard" break in method. I've never had a new engine so I can't personally comment, but a lot of people smarter than me (not that hard to do) with engines do it this way.

Audi Skate Snow
04-02-2011, 09:39 AM
What do you guys recommend for engine break in? I was going to loosely follow this:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Also, what about oil change intervals? Currently running SAE 30 non-detergent oil for break in.......and will switch to 10w40 once the rings are seated...

100% agree. I have broken all my motors in hard.

My oil changes are as follows: DINO oil only.
Start car and let it warm up while checking for leaks and loose ends etc
When car is all good and checks out (and warm) drain oil and refil
Drive 20 miles on the car with as much engine vacuum as possible. Get on the freeway and take it up to 5500 rpms and let it decel all the way down... keep doing it for 20 miles.

Drain oil after 20 miles and refil
Rip on the car like you normally would.

Drain 100
300
500
1000
1500

That is just how I do it. DINO oil is so cheap. Around 2000-3000 switch to synthetic.

Audi Skate Snow
04-02-2011, 09:41 AM
one thing people don't realize is when you "break in" your motor, your just letting the rings set. Rings will set even before 20 miles. Reason we dont use synthetic to break it in is because it is too "slippery" and will not have enough contact with your freshly honed cyl walls to file them properly.

Think of it as this... we hone our motors to get a fresh cross hatch. That cross hatch main purpose is to file rings. You want to take advantage of the freshly hone motor while the cross hatch is still good enough to file the rings. Breaking it in hard will do this.

JumboBlack1.8
04-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Just bought about 10 quarts of 5w-30 Pennzoil on an Autozone special. Hoping it'll get me through the first few changes. For the idle/warm-up step, I'll be running Autozone SAE 30 non-detergent oil.

The battery is currently charging. The thing was totally dead after sitting for over a month.

Hoping to report back with some good news with my next update

nunya
04-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Just bought about 10 quarts of 5w-30 Pennzoil on an Autozone special. Hoping it'll get me through the first few changes. For the idle/warm-up step, I'll be running Autozone SAE 30 non-detergent oil.

The battery is currently charging. The thing was totally dead after sitting for over a month.

Hoping to report back with some good news with my next update


Get it done.. I want to see a good outcome here :-) Hopefully my sedan will be done here in a month or so. The f-in machinist is soooooooooooo slow.


--dillon

JumboBlack1.8
04-02-2011, 01:42 PM
Just tried to start it......checked the batt voltage with a voltage meter and I'm getting 12.97v. The car cranks, but its VERY weak. The voltage drops down to around 9-10v (maybe even lower)........what's weirding me out about this is that, even with jumper cables hooked up, I still get the weak crank......Shouldn't it start right up? Or will a weak battery still result in weak cranking despite being jumped by a running car?

nunya
04-02-2011, 01:53 PM
Just tried to start it......checked the batt voltage with a voltage meter and I'm getting 12.97v. The car cranks, but its VERY weak. The voltage drops down to around 9-10v (maybe even lower)........what's weirding me out about this is that, even with jumper cables hooked up, I still get the weak crank......Shouldn't it start right up? Or will a weak battery still result in weak cranking despite being jumped by a running car?

Check the resistance from the large terminal on the starter to the battery positive. You may have pinched the cable. Also make sure the alternator large terminal isnt arching and torqued down well.

--dillon

JumboBlack1.8
04-02-2011, 01:57 PM
Ok, I'll check those things. Also, just to double check......both the power wire from the battery, and the larger cable from the alternator to the battery are supposed to be connected to the SAME top terminal on the starter, correct?

nunya
04-02-2011, 02:04 PM
Ok, I'll check those things. Also, just to double check......both the power wire from the battery, and the larger cable from the alternator to the battery are supposed to be connected to the SAME top terminal on the starter, correct?

Yea, it just splits off after it goes under the airbox. Its all the same cable. The last time i put my motor in i pinched it and had to replace the cable from the battery to the alternator. The cable part of the cable to the starter was fine and i just soldered it back into the other cable. Not ideal i know but it took me a while to figure it out.

http://wiki.quattroworld.com/index.php/A4.B5.DIY.Engine.Electrical.ChargeSystemTroubleSho oting

--dillon

JumboBlack1.8
04-02-2011, 02:24 PM
Ok, I just measured the resistance of the battery-to-starter wire and found .4-.5 ohms of resistance....SO, it seems that not all of the power is getting to the starter....The only wire that I damaged during this process was the small wire (with the plastic connector) that essentially connects to the ignition switch (I think). It was very poorly crimped into the engine harness, so I securely soldered it in.....Otherwise, I don't THINK I did any other damage.........I'm gonna go back and check that everything is hooked up properly

JumboBlack1.8
04-04-2011, 09:49 AM
So, I got the car to crank a lot stronger by re-seating all contacts on the starter and alternator. However, the car still wont' start. I checked the codes (via Maestro 7....my Vag-com cable is glitchy) and found codes p0351, p0352, p0353, p0354 for all of the coil packs. I'm thinking that the coilpack harness isn't properly grounded???

I've STFA already, but I didn't find anything definitive

Poopie
04-04-2011, 10:25 AM
fuses?

Poopie
04-04-2011, 10:28 AM
oh and yes, there is a ground for the coilpacks. Usually attaches to the valve cover

JumboBlack1.8
04-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Yea. I do have that ground connected (also running some LC-1 grounds to that same point)......Though I made sure not to get any paint on it when I sprayed the cover, it may not be perfectly clean. I'll try sanding it down a bit and when I get home

Audi Skate Snow
04-05-2011, 12:03 AM
So, I got the car to crank a lot stronger by re-seating all contacts on the starter and alternator. However, the car still wont' start. I checked the codes (via Maestro 7....my Vag-com cable is glitchy) and found codes p0351, p0352, p0353, p0354 for all of the coil packs. I'm thinking that the coilpack harness isn't properly grounded???

I've STFA already, but I didn't find anything definitive

Pull back the boots on each coil pack connector and see if the wires are frayed. just happend to me and I replaced with the 034 harness. problem solved.

JumboBlack1.8
04-05-2011, 10:46 AM
IT"S ALIVE!!!!!!!

I finally got it started!!! I had the crank position sensor hooked up incorrectly. I'm using a modified AWM harness and an ATW sensors, and I didn't put the harness connects on the correct pins of the CPS. Swapped them around, and it fired right up!

At the moment, there don't appear to be any coolant or oil leaks, but I think I have a small exhaust leak on my wastegate V-band. So, when the engine cools down, I'm gonna try to address that. Also, I think I've got to tighten my water pump pulley, as it looks pretty wobbly. I lightly rev'd the engine up to 3k rpms after it warmed up, and it seems Ok. Unfortunately, it started raining on me, so I didn't get the chance to drain the oil and take it out for a spin.

And.....this is the most important part.............The noise is still there....Having just rebuilt the motor, I can say that its not the crank or rod bearings.......It doesn't appear to be as loud as it as before, but it's still present. I'll try to snap a video later today

So......some good news, and some bad news

Audi Skate Snow
04-05-2011, 01:09 PM
its gotta be drive train related then. my guess is flyhweel or possibly input shaft. Nice job though man. Learned a lot regardless of the problem being fixed or not. Congrats man!

JumboBlack1.8
04-05-2011, 04:16 PM
More info:

I started the car again, and the belts are making a LOT of noise. I took off the top belt cover, and it appears that my timing belt tensioner pulley isn't moving, causing it to chew away at the back of the T-belt. I don't believe that i over-torqued it....but I'll dig back in there and see if I can shake it loose.....

Also, I mentioned the water pump pulley being wobbly......well, it turns out that I DID tighten it down well.....So I'm thinking the water pump pulley bearing might be going.....

Thinking of buying a brand new T-belt and water pump.....

So.....I've still got some work to do...............I need a better job so I won't feel so bad about spending all this money.....


**EDIT**
I'm an idiot.......I center cylinder on the tensioner pulley (the part that bolts to the block) backwards.......Gonna swap it out on my next day off...Ordered a new Timing belt since I'm worried about all the material that burned off....and a new water pump....We'll see what happens next...

ZimbutheMonkey
04-05-2011, 11:28 PM
S*it happens man, don't feel to bad about it, at least you caught it. There's a old saying: The mark of a good craftsman isn't how good he is at his work, it's how good he is at fixing his fuckups. Anyone here (present company included) who can say that they're good at this kind of stuff have all made a laundry list of screwups along the way. Anyone who claims different is a liar.

JumboBlack1.8
04-06-2011, 05:51 AM
I'm feelings better now....Just needed to sleep on it a bit.....Off to work now to forget about it for a while......Thanks man

Aragorn
04-06-2011, 07:54 AM
A few posts back you said you had 81.6mm pistons in 82.4mm bores... is this right? because thats waaaaay to much piston to bore clearance?!

Audi specifies 0.035mm, which is ~1.5thou, some aftermarket pistons will run clearances upto around 6 thou...

your numbers suggest 0.8mm which is 31thou...

Did i misread or something? Because if you have 31thou piston to bore clearance the motors going to slap itself to bits.

JumboBlack1.8
04-07-2011, 07:32 AM
Unfortunately, I've lost the notebook where I wrote down all my measurements...I have the job number for the pistons saved in an email. So, I'll get in touch with JE directly to find out exactly what the dimensions are. There definitely wasn't THAT much space in between the piston walls and the cylinder walls.....But I'd like to be sure

JumboBlack1.8
04-07-2011, 08:23 AM
Well, THAT was super fast.....I emailed JE about 20 minutes ago, and I've ALREADY got a response!

The Job/Order # for the pistons is 715540
The piston diameter as measured .200 up from the bottom of the skirt if 3.244", and according to this picture, it seems the cylinders are slightly larger than the skirts:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/ltortora/2009-11-13180250.jpg

Taking a sigh of relief.......

Aragorn
04-07-2011, 08:30 AM
decimal inches?! urgh.

that converts to 82.3976mm, which is a lot more sensible if your bores are 82.4mm!

JumboBlack1.8
04-07-2011, 08:34 AM
^^Indeed.....I legitimately was freaking out about this all day yesterday

ZimbutheMonkey
04-07-2011, 10:32 AM
I would start searching online pharmacies for Valium scripts [:p] At least you Yankees can do that.

Or a case of Samuel Jackson beer, HOW'S IT TASTE MOTHER******S!!!!!!

JumboBlack1.8
04-07-2011, 07:38 PM
IT WOOORRRKKKKSS!!!! I just got in from taking the car out for its first 20 miles, and it feels GREAT!! I followed the suggested break-in procedure....no babying, lots of engine breaking, with a max of about 5-7psi and high-revs.....Earlier today, I installed a new timing belt, fixed the tensioner, new water pump, and fixed a coolant leaks with some new O-rings.........She idles without a single hitch, and drives beautifully! And, most importantly, the noise is GONE........Upon inspection, the old water bump appears to have been the source....The impeller bearing had a good amount of play in it.....While it might suck that I spent a TON of money fixing what might not have been broken, the amount that I learned and accomplished along the way has made it all worthwhile. I really could NOT be happier with my work.

Thanks to EVERYONE who helped me with this process. You guys have all been terrific! Audizine FTW!!!

Audi Skate Snow
04-12-2011, 05:48 PM
AWESOME! Congrats man! Keep us posted on how it runs.

viceprp
04-12-2011, 06:22 PM
Congrats man.

Wanna trade now?! Lol

JumboBlack1.8
04-12-2011, 07:14 PM
Thanks guys. She's running great so far. I've put about 100 miles on it, as of tonight. Most everything is good.....but I think I might have a rear seal leak....I've noticed a bit of oil dripping from the bell housing. I'll get to it when I can. Hopefully soon, but no big deal . I must not have torqued the fasteners well enough

Also need to add some more resistors to the harness, as block 032 still isn't populated. Otherwise, she feels GREAT at 15psi. No knock or insane timing pull! I'm thrilled

ZimbutheMonkey
04-12-2011, 09:43 PM
.Upon inspection, the old water bump appears to have been the source....The impeller bearing had a good amount of play in it.....


Before you rip your engine apart I'd rule everything else out first. I know what it's like to be a paranoid (some may say hypochondriac) car owner. However as a third party reading the facts, it just doesn't add up.

You should listen to this guy more often [;)] Hey, but all kidding aside, good job and you have my congrats. I also agree that the sum total of what you learned probably outweighed the PITA and $$$ spent on this project. Trust me, it's nice to know that you had the balls and the confidence to tear down your motor on your own and put it back together.

Hope the seal issue is a minor one. And if not, it's not like you haven't pulled the engine before right?

Now go have a cool frosty Sam Jackson.

JumboBlack1.8
04-13-2011, 02:37 PM
The only thing about the car that is somewhat worrisome is the low oil pressure at warm idle. I've been getting readings as low as 9psi, but closer to 14psi on average.......From other research, I've found that other users have seen around 24psi.....otherwise, my pressure readings are normal (35psi-40+psi when cruising).......I'm not sure if these readings are a result of the shitty 5w30 conventional Pennzoil that I'm using for break-in....

Otherwise, all is well! Lovin my car again

Audi Skate Snow
04-14-2011, 12:48 AM
when you put the rear main seal on did you make sure the lips on the seal were seated correctly? Did you use the little plastic piece that comes with it to put it on?

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 08:08 AM
Are you referring to the gasket, or the seal itself? I'm relatively sure that I installed it correctly, but I'm not 100%.

I DID overfill the oil on the last change, so it MAY be possible that the oil just found a way to escape.....but not sure. I'll check on the leak tomorrow afternoon when I have some free time

*Edit*
Just reread your post. YES, I did make sure the lips on the seal were seated. I lightly banged it into position with a rubber mallet

Aragorn
04-14-2011, 09:43 AM
Is the oil pump new?

on a good engine you'd expect around 1-1.5 bar at idle, and it should be close to or above above 5bar by 3000rpm.

My old knackered 200k mile AEB used to drop to 8-9psi at idle when hot and needed nearly 5000rpm to get 5bar of pressure, only managing around 3bar at 3000rpm.

When i stripped it the crank and bearings were in perfect nick, i'm using that crank in my new build and the engine shop said it didnt need a regrind just a quick polish up, so i can only assume the oil pump itself had simply worn out with the mileage.

99blueb5
04-14-2011, 10:06 AM
i bet when you switch to 10-40 then your oil pressure will come up, makes a world of difference

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 10:17 AM
Yea, that's what I think too. Some other guys have reported higher readings with heavier oils.

As for the oil pump, its not new, but, upon inspection, it spec'd out to "new" condition (used Bentely specs when measuring the gear clearances). So I don't believe the pump is original.

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 11:38 AM
Got some bad news to report......was driving around town for work, and my Oil Pressure light came on......at the time, I waas getting readings of around 11psi, which is VERY low, but not low enough to throw the light (I was under the impression that this light only kicked on at 5psi).

What should I do???? I'm pulled over, engine off, hood open, and parked illegally.....

Aragorn
04-14-2011, 12:27 PM
Pressure switch on turbo engines comes on a 1bar, but the cluster ignores it below 2000rpm.

Haenszel20v
04-14-2011, 12:36 PM
I would tow it home and get a new pump in there before trying to start it again. Your oil pressure you're seeing is WAY too low. I never had a 1.8t that was less than 22psi warm idle.

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 01:28 PM
It started back up, and I got it to a safer location. I'm gonna try to limp it home after work, then park it until I do some more digging

Aragorn
04-14-2011, 01:40 PM
Surely its safer to Triple-A or similar out to tow it home, than risk grenading the engine trying to drive it.

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Found this thread on Vortex:
forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4895477-Oil-Pressure-on-Fresh-Rebuild&highlight=oil+pressure+break

JumboBlack1.8
04-14-2011, 08:56 PM
Drove the car home tonight.....Everything was fine (oil pressure was still low at around 17psi, but no where near as low as earlier). It was relatively warm and humid today in Boston AND I noticed that my radiator fan isn't working anymore (any suggestions? I haven't searched yet), so I believe that combination caused my oil to heat up more than it should've. Since it's such a light oil (5w30), I think it was more sensitive to ambient temperatures.......I talked to a muscle car guy about it at work, and he immediately recommended stepping up to at least a 40-weight oil........I think it's at least worth a shot before I dig into it again

Aragorn
04-15-2011, 03:02 AM
17psi at idle? or peak?

What does the pressure get up to at 3000rpm when fully warmed up?

JumboBlack1.8
04-15-2011, 08:17 AM
17psi at IDLE......otherwise, the oil pressure readings are normal (30+psi at 2krpms, 50+ around 3k,...it does vary, but the pump is functioning).....I definitely mentioned that.....which is why I'm not freaking out about a bad oil pump or anything catastrophic.

JumboBlack1.8
04-17-2011, 08:11 AM
I made the switch to 10w40 conventional oil this morning, and my oil pressure readings are drastically improved. I'm now reaching all the target pressure values according to RPM. At warm idle, the lowest number I saw was 21psi. However, I do think that a slightly leaky rear main seal could be contributing to the slightly low-ish number. I'm hoping I'll have some time in the next few days/weeks to pull the motor out (AGAIN) or drop the transmission to get it replaced.

Aragorn
04-17-2011, 09:08 AM
the rear main seal isnt under pressure, its just there to keep oil splashes etc inside the engine, so it wont be affecting the engines oil pressure unless it lets it all out.

JumboBlack1.8
04-18-2011, 06:39 AM
False alarm.....there's definitely something wrong here. My super low pressure at warm idle has returned.......It's very odd. At times, my gauge seems to oscillate between super low readings around 9psi and 25psi.......But this ONLY happens at idle. Otherwise, my pressure readings are normal. I'll try to take a video later today.

But until then, I may be ordering a new oil pump

Dan[FN]6262
04-18-2011, 07:22 AM
this happened to my friend, and it turned out that his oil pump was loose. at idle it would hang down, he would rev it up and it would suck the pump up to where it was supposed to be, and he would have good oil pressure lol

Audi Skate Snow
04-20-2011, 03:09 PM
GOod point Dan,

First place I would check is oil pump. At this point you know all your bearings, clearances etc are in spec. Only other thing could be the oil pump which isnt a huge deal but ya gotta pull the pan.

keep us posted.

Audi Skate Snow
04-20-2011, 04:48 PM
also check the spring chain tensioner on the oil pump while you are in there.

JumboBlack1.8
04-20-2011, 04:51 PM
Thanks guys! Hoping to dig into this some time in the next few days.

Also, 058 blocks don't have chain driven oil pumps.....hoping it'll be an easy fix tho

ZimbutheMonkey
04-20-2011, 07:45 PM
FYI, it is possible to pull the pan without pulling the engine. My understanding is if you tilt the engine back as far as you can (without crushing any coolant flanges) and drop the subframe some, you can wiggle it out. Don't know if that helps, but it's got to be easier than pulling the engine to get to the pump.

EuroDriven
04-20-2011, 11:05 PM
FYI, it is possible to pull the pan without pulling the engine. My understanding is if you tilt the engine back as far as you can (without crushing any coolant flanges) and drop the subframe some, you can wiggle it out. Don't know if that helps, but it's got to be easier than pulling the engine to get to the pump.

Dropped my pan without touching the sub-frame, just took some wiggling to get a couple bolts out.

Audi Skate Snow
04-24-2011, 01:01 PM
Thanks guys! Hoping to dig into this some time in the next few days.

Also, 058 blocks don't have chain driven oil pumps.....hoping it'll be an easy fix tho

two things i mentioned ahah. So used to posting in the b6 forum.

JumboBlack1.8
05-01-2011, 07:14 PM
Well.....I think I might've found the source of my oil pressure problems.....I decided to pull the motor AGAIN to replace the rear main, and to replace what I THOUGHT might've been a bad oil pump....But, upon pulling the block away from the body, I found this:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1162.jpg

When I originally found it, the plug was nearly half-way out of the hole, leaving the seal exposed. This part acts as both a seal and a stand, on which oil pump-to-intermediate shaft gear rotates on. From what I gather, this port is one of the starting points for pressurized oil....so, this COULD explain why my pressure readings were so dangerously low....When I originally tore the motor apart, I removed this part to replace the seal, but I SOMEHOW neglected to properly torque it back down. So......after a few hundred miles of not being properly seated, it sustained a LITTLE bit of damage :(

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1161.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1160.jpg

ALSO.....to make matters worse......I somehow managed to crack my oilpan when removing the engine......I won't get into how it happened, or who's the blame......but I'm just upset
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IMG_1164.jpg


SO......while I'm thrilled its not my oil pump that's damaged, I'm now in a HUGE bind because I've got two find two parts that are VERY hard to come by.......Anyone out there parting out an ATW (for the oil pan) or an AEB block (for the other parts)?????

I'm sick of working on this car.......who wants to buy it???

Aragorn
05-02-2011, 02:31 AM
I dont think that plug would see any pressurised oil, its just a replacement for the distributor which would have been fitted there on earlier engines, but if it was loose, it may have been allowing the oil pump drive gear to skip.

I'd be checking the two gears carefully for damage.

The blanking plug should be able to come from a wide range of 058 block engines, not just the AEB, i'd have thaught?

JumboBlack1.8
05-02-2011, 06:46 AM
I've carefully inspected both gears, and there doesn't appear to be any damage to any of the teeth......I do think that this plug had SOME effect on pressure (whether it was causing pressure to escape, or the drive gear to skip), because I'd occasionally get pressure readings that oscillated from 9-28psi at idle....which led me to believe that something wasn't properly seated or sealed

.Mad Hatter.
05-02-2011, 07:44 AM
Justin, I just picked up an ATW to build the block on. I haven't taken the pan off yet, but I can as I do not need it. If you want it I can try my best to have it shipped out in the next few days. Let me know.

JumboBlack1.8
05-02-2011, 10:33 AM
Thanks Geoff! I'm exploring a few leads locally, so hopefully I should have something by the end of the day. But I'll definitely let you know!

.Mad Hatter.
05-02-2011, 11:15 AM
For sure, it's an option if nothing local pops up. That looks like an odd spot for a crack upon removal, did it swing and hit something?

JumboBlack1.8
05-02-2011, 02:40 PM
Well, since I DESPERATELY need my car to be back together by Wednesday morning for work, I'm forced to bite the bullet and buy a brand new oil pan.....to the tune of $135.....Fortunately, the guy I'm buying it from ALSO has the plug! I've ordered a new rear main seal (any tips on how to install this PROPERLY?!) and some oil pan sealant, which should be here tomorrow.

I really hope this solves the oil pressure issue.........if not....I'm buying a Corolla

ZimbutheMonkey
05-11-2011, 09:51 PM
**Edit, shit I see that you have an 058 block, my bad. However it may be worth checking into to see if your block has any check valves or pressure relief valves similar to the 06A**

Dude, I may have an answer to your issue. I was talking to the owner of one of the Audi shops in my area and he said that apparently there are two pressure relief valves on the 06A blocks. I think one is in the pump but I know he said the other one is in the assembly that the oil filter bolts onto. Apparently what happens is that the check valve in the oil cooler assembly doesn't close all the way and can cause a low pressure condition. That may explain why the symptoms your engine is displaying are so unusual vis a vis a plain bad pump or spun bearing.



Here's a picture of an 06A check valve (it's not mine so never mind the question on it)
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/oilfiltercheckvalve.jpg

Aragorn
05-12-2011, 12:15 AM
058 has the same check valve, but i doubt it would cause pressure issues with the engine running. Its purpose isnt to regulate pressure, but to stop oil draining back thru the pump with the engine stopped.

A friend has his check valve back out on his 058, and the only symptom was that it would rattle really loudly on startup for a second or two until oil reached the lifters. After that it would run completely normally.

99blueb5
07-09-2011, 08:43 AM
i know its been a while but im curious to any updates with this pressure release vave in the oil filter housing?

JumboBlack1.8
07-09-2011, 08:55 AM
Check out my "Low Idle Oil Pressure..." thread.....I just discovered that there was no oil pressure retainer valve in the oil filter housing. Installed a new one, but I have yet to take the car for a test run to see if that's solved the issues.....I'll update that thread