***Public Service Announcement, Clutch Masters has disappointed for the last time***

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Way back in 2008 I had a little over 30,000 miles on a South Bend OFE SS clutch which worked great the whole time I had it until the time when I discovered the material came loose from the rivots and started to seperate from the disk (strange noises). South Bend quickly with no questions asked warrantied the disk (and resurfaced flywheel/pressure plate) with their next step up disk which was an FE. I had an issue with that disk where it welded to the flywheel and contacted them once again, where they once again no questions asked warrantied it and gave me another disk 8 pad ceramic segmented. That disk started slipping one day and I jumped the gun believing it was just another failure so I bought another clutch before even taking it out. Come to find out it was just a rear main seal leak that caused the disk to get saturated with oil.

This switch is when I went to Clutch Masters with the 228mm FX400 and nobody was running this clutch yet but it was recommended to be good for my power level so I said sure why not. At the time I wasn't running a ton of boost and everything seemed ok but after breaking it in for several hunred miles I started turning up the boost to the upper 20s and I started to have problems with the clutch holding where it would slip on me once or twice on my first pulls but then seemed to hold ok afterward. Time went on and I started to have the clutch slip more and more to where I had to take it out and find out what was going on. At this time I discovered the leading edges of the pads started to fall apart on the disk (probably from all the slipping) and I sent it all back to Clutch Masters. They contacted me back telling me I cracked my pressure plate and my setup was no good and needed to buy a new clutch. Wait a second, your clutch failed, a clutch that was suppoed to work for me, and you want me to buy a new one? After talking for a while they said they would give me another setup for half off, I had no other choice so I bought another one. At this time I went over my setup and power levels SEVERAL times with who I spoke with on the phone and he said I should be fine. I made it very clear I didn't want to be buying the wrong clutch AGAIN if it was not going to hold my power. He assured me I would be fine so I bought the clutch. I broke the clutch in for several hundred miles and once again turned to boost up and what do you know, it started slipping again. I quickly took it out of my car and sold it before I did any kind of damage.

Now comes the time the FX850SS is introduced, oh boy, finally this will end my problems right? Wrong. [:(] This clutch was also broken in for several hunred miles then I turned the boost up and was excited to see that it never once slipped on me. Well hey, after all I spent $1300+ on this clutch so it should perform right? I put 4000+ miles on this clutch and it continued to hold whatever boost I ran. I figured I would go to track and give the 1/4 mile a shot and launch the car. On this night I did one run and went back to the line to go again and about 35 minutes later did a second pass. I revved the car to around 6000rpm and dumped the clutch like I have done on the hunreds of passes I have previously done with my gtrs setup, 3076r setup and even this 5857. I shift to 2nd and am ok but then go for 3rd and I got nothing............

Great, another clutch has failed and welded itself to the flywheel. I then have a hell of a time to drive the 1 hour 15 minutes back home with no clutch stopping at red lights pulling off the side of the road and turning the car off. I couldn't get the starter to pull the car by leaving it in 1st gear until it started for some reason (the engine would almost start then die, think this is a problem with my tune) so a friend and I had to start the engine, put it in neutral and run down the side of the street pushing my car fast enough to where I could jump in the car and jam it into 1st gear with no clutch and have my friend chase me down and jump in the passenger seat and we would be on our way again until we hit another red light. Yes, it was terrible and sucked.

I took the transmission out and popped the pressure plate off and the little floating disk under the pressure plate was welded to the disk and the disk was also welded on the other side to the flywheel. I pryed on it with my hands and couldn't get it off so I got a screwdriver and pryed a little and it broke free. I then packaged it up and sent it back to Clutch Masters and it got delivered a little after lunch time on Friday. I get a call today that they inspected the clutch and the claim that the clutch had grease on it which was causing it to slip and that is why it welded up. This clutch has NEVER once slipped on me even at 31psi of boost and there wasn't grease on the clutch disk. They were simply looking for a cop out just like they did on the previous ones that failed. They want me to pay $125 for a new disk (which is claimed to be $450) so I am getting "a deal" [:p] You have got to be kidding me right?

I feel bad because I have promoted the shit out of Clutch Masters and Mike Hood has sold many clutches when everyone jumped ship from South Bend with damn near all the B6 forum running Clutch Masters now. There are other members who later experienced the same exact problems I did with the FX400 slipping on them, but like I said, we were told it would hold and me personally on the phone with Clutch Master was reassured it would work after confirming multiple times. I told Mike I was sorry but he sells South Bend also and can work out a setup with them to sell to the higher powered masses. I just can't let them get away with this, not once but twice as well as for the other peoples failures, with one persons being as many as you can count on your hand.

A few of us moved on to the FX850ss hoping for a greener pasture, and Dan, Sam and I all 3 have had this clutch weld up on us now on a launch. Their excuse with me, I put grease on the disk causing it to slip, the excuse for the others, they didn't break it in properly even though Sam had over 500 miles on his of stop and go driving, not highway, but stop and go.

Another member had his 240mm fx400 weld up on him with over 1200 miles on it before his 1st launch which resulted in failure. The response to that one, he broke it in incorrectly and didn't have many miles on it. I just spoke to this guy again with him confirming he had OVER 1200 miles on it. I am sure some of you know who I am talking about, in fact he has had multiple failures in less than a years time with his multiple Clutch Masters clutches.

Do you notice a trend here?

It is a shame that we don't have a solid setup to go to that you can trust if you actually drive the car what it was intended to be driven like when you build it to big horsepower levels. Maybe it is time to revisit South Bend Clutch with talks of a stronger clamping pressure plate and disk combo. At least if you do have a failure with them, you know you will have top notch customer service and they won't be quick to shift the blame on you. After all, everyone with a failure, that is no coincidence right? Nah, it just everyone doing something wrong............... [down]


That is my rant, I am still in disbelief that they tried to say there was grease on my disk causing it to slip and that is why it welded, but there are 2 more documented failures of the same clutch doing the same thing, which were wrote off on another "it is the customers fault, they did something wrong."

And I encourage anyone that has had a problem with them to come forward, why do we want a company like this in our community where you spend a lot of your hard earn money to get junk and poor service in return?

I will never recommend Clutch Masters again.

[7speed]

Well that sucks so I guess it's on to the next one. What company will we have to try next ? This is part of the reason why I am so hesitant to go to the track again.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Tell me about it Sam. You should have put 10,000 miles on your clutch before you launched it, the 600 you did wasn't good enough, and damn those greasy hands of mine even though they were clean when I installed the clutch. [:/]

Sucks I had no choice but to spend another $145 to have my shit shipped back to me in working order to drive the car down the road.

Maybe someone should get in contact with Exedy and see what they have to say? Or like I said, one of the best customer service places I have ever had was South Bend, maybe they can work something a little stronger up than the standard OFE, FE SS that so many have ran in the past. After all Clint was running the OFE SS on his car with the 35r and it is kinda fast [:D]

[A4twin]

ouch... hope i have better luck with my CM. it's goin in about 2 weeks. but don't plan on doing 6K clutch dumps.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

ouch... hope i have better luck with my CM. it's goin in about 2 weeks. but don't plan on doing 6K clutch dumps.

This is actually exactly part of the defense. It being "but there are a bunch of others out there running the clutches fine," but at the same time these "bunches of others" don't launch their car at 6000rpm (or launch at all period) or are not making a hefty amount of power. But that is the justification I was given.

[AudiA4_20T]

The SB OFE SS is the ticket

[Dolphin18T]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nmJbWD81m78/TFy2usR6JgI/AAAAAAAABpw/srK13xaXNw0/s640/Candage%20build%20progress%20049%20SMALL.jpg

Been working for me. [:D]

I don't beat on it like you guys though...

[A4 TSCHUSS]

What are you running now Clint? Did you just put in a new disk and still have the OFE SS setup?

Ryan, what disk do you have?

[Dolphin18T]

What are you running now Clint? Did you just put in a new disk and still have the OFE SS setup?

Ryan, what disk do you have?

Mine's just the SS-O, not even the OFE. The first throwout bearing I got with it failed quickly for unknown reasons, but they gave me a new one and it seems to be fine now.

I like pedal feel of the SS. Charlie says it's a bit stiffer than his fx400.

[BerNur]

me and my friend just were debating on what clutches to run he was convincing me to go with spec 3+ which he just installed and is loving it but i decided on the cm fx 400 6 puck smf..

[catriple]

Hey. looking for a recommendation on a new clutch to buy for my b6 Stage1+. Dont need anything crazy, but it seems like everyone on this thread has been through "MANY" a clutch.

Looking for mid-range not too stiff. Recommendations?

[sean1.8t]

The SB OFE SS is the ticket

mine welded. Greg's welded. as well as 15 other people's.

QUIT SPREADING THIS BULLSHIT

[Dolphin18T]

mine welded. Greg's welded. as well as 15 other people's.

QUIT SPREADING THIS BULLSHIT

I didn't even know you could get the OFE disc with the SS pressure plate... I thought the OFE disc came with the HD.

[CTS Turbo]

The SB OFE SS is the ticket

I have had far too many issues with SBC to promote their products any longer, this is the very reason we switched to Clutch Masters. When your pressure plate grinds away at the bell housing your customers get mad.


David, All clutch companies have issues, we've never had any issues with clutch masters to date, and our dealers are using them with no issues running larger turbos than a 5857. I would chalk this one up to god hating your amazing car. You deserve to see that thing move down the track at the high speeds it's capable of reaching. I wish you the best of luck with your project.

cheers,


Clay

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Mine's just the SS-O, not even the OFE. The first throwout bearing I got with it failed quickly for unknown reasons, but they gave me a new one and it seems to be fine now.

I like pedal feel of the SS. Charlie says it's a bit stiffer than his fx400.

It is way stiffer than the fx400, I had it before the FX400 and though my clutch was broke when I first installed the fx400 since it was so soft. It is more like the fx850ss I have now, that is probably why Clint's didn't slip because it probably actually has more clamping force.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So now that Southbend and Clutchmasters have reported multiple failures have we come full circle again to SPEC? It makes me wonder why people are considering going back to Southbend when there haven't been any SPEC related failures since around 2007 when they had that bad run of clutch rivets?

Although I'm only running a GTRS elim on it, I've been really happy with my stage 3+ The stage 3+ in the 240mm is rated for 713 ft/lb Also, SPEC has a twin disk available. While I don't know if it's available for the 1.8T, if it is, why not try that one out? Or is the forum hivemind going to preclude that possibility?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I didn't even know you could get the OFE disc with the SS pressure plate... I thought the OFE disc came with the HD.

The OFE SS was the only clutch damn near being ran by EVERYONE on this forum back in 2005-2008.

[EErie B6]

I dont make any power yet and that might be why my clutch is still alive... but i put probably 15-20 5-6k rpm dumps on mine when i was autoxing... and nearly back to back. i could not get a smooth/agressive slip out of it so i started side stepping it.

clutch had 500 miles city & 250 hwy (does not count for much) and no problems as of yet. *knocks on wood*


ever thought of just getting something like the ECS RA4 conversion flywheel then picking up a true S4 clutch... something big and nasty? or do the S4 guys have the same problems as the BT A4 guys? (the CM 240 might be the same thing but IDK)

...just trying to come up with options.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

So now that Southbend and Clutchmasters have reported multiple failures have we come full circle again to SPEC? It makes me wonder why people are considering going back to Southbend when there haven't been any SPEC related failures since around 2007 when they had that bad run of clutch rivets?

Although I'm only running a GTRS elim on it, I've been really happy with my stage 3+ Also, SPEC has a twin disk available. Why not try that one out? Or is the forum hivemind going to preclude that possibility?

You can't have many failures when only 2 people run the clutch [:p] Who knows, maybe they are worth a try. There is a really good chance you will have a problem if you have a 30r running in the upper 20s psi with an FX400 if your car is actually making power and not just running high boost but not making power, that is for sure.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I dont make any power yet and that might be why my clutch is still alive... but i put probably 15-20 5-6k rpm dumps on mine when i was autoxing... and nearly back to back. i could not get a smooth/agressive slip out of it so i started side stepping it.

clutch had 500 miles city & 250 hwy (does not count for much) and no problems as of yet. *knocks on wood*


ever thought of just getting something like the ECS RA4 conversion flywheel then picking up a true S4 clutch... something big and nasty? or do the S4 guys have the same problems as the BT A4 guys? (the CM 240 might be the same thing but IDK)

...just trying to come up with options.

There was talk in another thread with a theory of S4s launch at lower rpm since they have more torque and that could make the difference of welding or not. With that said, S4s don't run many Clutch Masters clutches that I know of. And the 240mm A4 clutch welded up on someone the first launch like I said in my first post after well over 1000 miles of break in.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

You can't have many failures when only 2 people run the clutch [:p]

Really, there's a second person? [>_<]

But in all seriousness, if you still have a 240mm flywheel lying around then all you'd need to do is buy the 240mm stage 3+ and give it a shot. However I'd call SPEC and tell them exactly what happened with Clutchmasters, tell them you're pissed off and you'd be willing to give their product a try. However tell them that you'll be providing forum feedback, both positive and negative and see if they're willing to give their word in that light.

Or maybe there's just really no clutch setup that works 100% of the time.

[rxrep]

Maybe if you paid a reputable shop 10 hours book time to install your clutch for you then you wouldn't have these problems... lol [:D]

[Audi Skate Snow]

mine welded. Greg's welded. as well as 15 other people's.

QUIT SPREADING THIS BULLSHIT

My SB welded a few times but it was well after 100 launches of the car. My fx400 fused first launch. I dont plan on launching my car much anymore. Road course is a lot more fun now.

[BerNur]

has anyone ever ran a spec stage 3+ my friend is getting it put in his b5 and is trying to convince me to do it also. by the way i currently run a fx400 6 puck smfw

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Read post 16, and according to David there's someone else running a SPEC clutch as well [;)]

[EErie B6]

if you still have a 240mm flywheel lying around then all you'd need to do is buy the 240mm stage 3+ and give it a shot. this is what i was trying to say. possibly something the really nasty S4s use with success.

the extra rpms launch causing problems makes sense though... thats a ton of heat, and real fast. it would be interesting to see what actually happens to a clutch during a launch... in real time... not just the aftermath.

[FORCE_FED_DUB]

Try talking to SPEC and ACT and see if they have anything for you that they can confidently recommend.

[sean1.8t]

It is way stiffer than the fx400, I had it before the FX400 and though my clutch was broke when I first installed the fx400 since it was so soft. It is more like the fx850ss I have now, that is probably why Clint's didn't slip because it probably actually has more clamping force.

my SS was the Ecode version which has an extra 800psi clamping force added to the PP. so that can't be it. and when if welded, it was a good clean launch. i revved it to 6k and strait dumped it with just a 30ft skid mark and no slippage other than the initial engagement. that little bit of slip was enough to do it. clint just has some freak of nature disk, or he's not launching it like he says he is.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

You know, given that there are quite a few people running 240mm setups, I'm surprised that we're seeing failures. I mean christ, a stage 3+ S4 spools almost instantly and puts it's torque down right off the launch.

What I'm wondering is; do the RPM's we need to use to launch a BAT setup play a role? obviously heat is what glazes and fuses these clutches. Is the 1.8T BAT high RPM slip + lower torque worse than the S4 lower RPM launch with higher torque?

[EErie B6]

im late to the party (as usual) has David ever run a twin disc of any kind? that seems like the next logical step.

SPEC has a nice looking drag type twin with an 800ft/lb capacity. I think its calling.
They also have a triple disc with a 1200ft/lb rating.

if he can kill that, maybe he needs to look into someone fabbing an adapter plate for a power-glide [:D]

[rbj325]

Why don't you start making clutches and selling them... if you want it done right do it yourself.

Obviously if no one else is up to the challenge this is an open market.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I thought his latest casualty was a twin disk. I looked into the SPEC twin disk a little more and I don't see a listing for a 1.8T. However maybe they can make one up.

Just out of curiosity, what materials do CM and Southbend use on the disks? If the clutches are overheating and glazing/fusing maybe material selection is the more important than the actual clamping force. All the clamping force in the world won't hold a glazed disk.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Really, there's a second person? [>_<]

But in all seriousness, if you still have a 240mm flywheel lying around then all you'd need to do is buy the 240mm stage 3+ and give it a shot. However I'd call SPEC and tell them exactly what happened with Clutchmasters, tell them you're pissed off and you'd be willing to give their product a try. However tell them that you'll be providing forum feedback, both positive and negative and see if they're willing to give their word in that light.

Or maybe there's just really no clutch setup that works 100% of the time.

I had a 228mm fx400 which I sold. Only thing I have left is a spare 6 puck disk that got soaked in oil from that rear seal I spoke of. I swapped in the new clutch and didnt notice the leak and then immediately had slip with the new clutch and took it out, fixed the seal and got another disk.


Maybe if you paid a reputable shop 10 hours book time to install your clutch for you then you wouldn't have these problems... lol [:D]

lmao, that must be it!!! [headbang]


My fx400 fused first launch.

How about any other problems? [;)][:D][:p]



Read post 16, and according to David there's someone else running a SPEC clutch as well [;)]

I was being sarcastic, I don't know anyone running Spec (atleast with any kind of 350+whp) since Jeff Lee did and the clutch broke in like 3 weeks back a few years ago.


my SS was the Ecode version which has an extra 800psi clamping force added to the PP. so that can't be it. and when if welded, it was a good clean launch. i revved it to 6k and strait dumped it with just a 30ft skid mark and no slippage other than the initial engagement. that little bit of slip was enough to do it. clint just has some freak of nature disk, or he's not launching it like he says he is.

Nah, I saw a video once of Clint ripping off the line. I never welded my SS and I had at minimum 150 launches on that thing on the street/strip back with my gtrs.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Why don't you start making clutches and selling them... if you want it done right do it yourself.

Obviously if no one else is up to the challenge this is an open market.

I don't know how to make clutches, I thought these guys did though?

[EErie B6]

I thought his latest casualty was a twin disk. I looked into the SPEC twin disk a little more and I don't see a listing for a 1.8T. However maybe they can make one up.

i thought his was an 850 SS "super single"

the twins i was looking at were for the 2.7t... wonder if they could be made to work with the 1.8t via a conversion FW.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I thought his latest casualty was a twin disk. I looked into the SPEC twin disk a little more and I don't see a listing for a 1.8T. However maybe they can make one up.

Just out of curiosity, what materials do CM and Southbend use on the disks? If the clutches are overheating and glazing/fusing maybe material selection is the more important than the actual clamping force. All the clamping force in the world won't hold a glazed disk.

FE (feramic) was one that welded in the past, others with the OFE also has feramic on the flywheel side just organic on pressure plate side and some have had those weld on the feramic side (I didn't though). All the rest (Charlie, Sam, Dan, Me, etc) were on ceramic 6 pucks, Charlie's being 240mm and the rest of us on 218mm with the FX850ss.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I thought his latest casualty was a twin disk. I looked into the SPEC twin disk a little more and I don't see a listing for a 1.8T. However maybe they can make one up.

Just out of curiosity, what materials do CM and Southbend use on the disks? If the clutches are overheating and glazing/fusing maybe material selection is the more important than the actual clamping force. All the clamping force in the world won't hold a glazed disk.

I'm just bumping this question as it looks like it got left behind as I was writing it.

David, don't worry I knew you were being sarcastic, hence the litte winkey guy.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

i thought his was an 850 SS "super single"

the twins i was looking at were for the 2.7t... wonder if they could be made to work with the 1.8t via a conversion FW.

Yes I have the single disk, same pressure plate as twin but cut down to accomodate 1 disk. There are twin disk options also that guys have ran with nothing but negative stuff said with the fx600 twin and the 850 twin being noisy and forget how they said it drove, don't think either launched the cars though with them.

[sean1.8t]

multiplate carbon clutch. tis the only way....


http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3985/clutch1.jpg
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9788/clutch4s.jpg

[SleeperAvant]

Damn, that thing is tiny, but so TICK. That for our cars?

[A4 Moda]

*Damn dude. I'm so sorry to hear that.

Every week it's "Tranny is out again" - "On my Back again" - "Fused"

My knees were getting week watching you get tranny after tranny (no pun intended).

And now, to discover that a MAJOR vendor, is reneging on their obligations to their customers, and dumping the lot of the B6 community out to sea, is disturbing to say the least. Holy Crap! This is really unacceptable.

That being said, my experience has been pretty good with My particular FX400 228mm clutch. I took 5000 miles, yes FIVE THOUSAND MILES to break in. I launched it no more than 5 times total. This is due in part to 2 reasons.

1. I'm a foggie. All gramppy and shit, I'd likely pop a knee cap or get a hernia, so I'm not pushing my luck
2. At the back of my mind, I thought about your clutch troubles.

But, i really liked the Clutch Masters clutch on my car. It had a super high engagement point leading to faster gear changes + it was a lot lighter than my factory clutch, making it easier on my old man parts.

I sold my car 2 weeks ago, and likely before catastrophic damage took place. So my complacency may be misplaced and premature.

Thanks for the PSA. I hope you don't throw the baby out with the bath water though. We still have very good vendors (Like Hood), who may be willing to work with you in conjunction with a new vendor to develop a clutch kit that actually holds your kind of bat-out-of-hell ape-shit power.

Some considerations, if you do proceed with R&D>
1. The B6, is a heavy little B*&CH with a huge ass

That's it, that's all I got for you.
Given the same material, and similar engineering + craftsmanship between clutches on different cars, the B6 clutches will fuse and/or come apart. Whereas, other cars (skinnier, smaller cars) will launch perfectly fine.

Leads me to the belief that weight is likely, a large contributing factor to failure.

GL with whatever you decide to do brotha.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

With all the weight so close to the hub, how's driveability?

[CoreyRS]

I don't know jack about clutches but it sure sounds like RPMs are the killer. The higher RPMs would mean that the spin up would have to happen more quickly and the increased speed would cause a ridic amount of friction. Anyone with a lower power A4 try dumping at 5-6k?

[Dolphin18T]

Damn, that thing is tiny, but so TICK. That for our cars?

Looks to be for a bike.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I don't know jack about clutches but it sure sounds like RPMs are the killer. The higher RPMs would mean that the spin up would have to happen more quickly and the increased speed would cause a ridic amount of friction. Anyone with a lower power A4 try dumping at 5-6k?

Given that the stage 3 S4s' aren't blowing/fusing their clutches left right and center I'd say we're on the same page.

[sean1.8t]

Looks to be for a bike.

no, it's in this. and holds 1500awhp. not sure on the torque

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7996/project2.jpg

[sean1.8t]

Given that the stage 3 S4s' aren't blowing/fusing their clutches left right and center I'd say we're on the same page.

that's what i've been leaning on too. as 2.7t guys dump around 4500rpm.

as well as the new wave of JHM 4.2 enthusiasts out there, they're dumping at 3500rpms. both have much more torque than our 1.8 liter's are making yet they launch their full faced sintered steel, ceramic, and kevlar clutches with minimum failures

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I'm coming up with a bit of a theory here. I'm wondering how the degree of flatness on the flywheel and clutch pressure plate plays into this. Think of it, if there are high points on the flywheel/pressure plate, they are the initial friction surface. If the clutch disk is depositing the bulk of it's energy on these isolated initial points of contact that's going to create hot spots which can glaze the clutch surface. Just think of rubbing the palm of your hand on a metal surface, then rub the tip of your knuckle on the same surface. You'll burn the tip of your knuckle long before you burn your palm.

Feel free anyone, to add to this.

[sean1.8t]

this can obviously occur. how much it plays into each failure will be different though. it can be a by product of the failure, or it could cause it. how to figure that out will be tricky.

here's my OFE disk after i pulled it out from fusing. the more silver looking spots in the middle of the friction surface are the points in which it was welded to the flywheel. the flywheel surface was horribly warped. which, like said, could have happened before the welding took place which is what caused it. or it was a by-product of the heat.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/groovysean/flipper/burntclutch007.jpg

[EBG 18T]

My fx 300 is done, I sne the pressure plate and flywheel back to CM to be resurfaced and to get my new fx400 puck since the fx300 couldnt handle it.

I hope my luck is better than you david.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

Given that the stage 3 S4s' aren't blowing/fusing their clutches left right and center I'd say we're on the same page.


that's what i've been leaning on too. as 2.7t guys dump around 4500rpm.

as well as the new wave of JHM 4.2 enthusiasts out there, they're dumping at 3500rpms. both have much more torque than our 1.8 liter's are making yet they launch their full faced sintered steel, ceramic, and kevlar clutches with minimum failures

From earlier today, post #36:
Click Here (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/411657-Bored-on-a-Saturday-Car-in-pieces)


This has all been discussed before; the consensus is that the 2.7tt guys DO NOT launch their cars as high in the RPMs as we do due to their power-band being shifted farther "left" than the 1.8t cars. Obviously, the higher the RPMs when the clutch is "dumped", the more heat will be created by the friction it takes for the clutch disc to grab the flywheel. And the 2.7tt guys that do launch way up high are in most cases running huge Tilton setups. None of us can speak on behalf of STI/EVO clutches, as none of us own them nor de we know what clutches most of them run in their cars.

[sean1.8t]

From earlier today:
Click Here (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/411657-Bored-on-a-Saturday-Car-in-pieces)

yeah, i can hardly even keep up with 1 of David's clutch threads. let alone the other 13 [:p]

[A4 TSCHUSS]

And now, to discover that a MAJOR vendor, is reneging on their obligations to their customers, and dumping the lot of the B6 community out to sea, is disturbing to say the least. Holy Crap! This is really unacceptable.

Thanks for the PSA. I hope you don't throw the baby out with the bath water though. We still have very good vendors (Like Hood), who may be willing to work with you in conjunction with a new vendor to develop a clutch kit that actually holds your kind of bat-out-of-hell ape-shit power.


I have been supporting Mike since he was running DTH for Greg and then went on his own with Ringer Racing (notice that was another plug) [;)]. I have promoted parts until the cows come home (mostly clutches) for him to help him out since he had been relatively good to me as well as being "friends" from being on the forum for so long together. I told him I was sorry because it would probably affect him too, but I just can't stomach this happening when this company (Clutch Masters) has saturated our community with clutches which was once dominated by South Bend until the handful of rivot failures caused the OFE disks to come apart and the other handful of welded up OFE/FE disks. Like I said, CM told me personally their stuff would work for me which it didn't so I spent money twice with them on the same crap going by their word and lack of support to fix their screw ups and then with this making it number 3, and we are talking about a clutch that is selling for $1500 even though a few of us early buyers/testers got it for ~$1300 through Mike. Clutch Masters has had just as many failures whether it being welded up clutches, slipping clutches that were supposed to hold the power or flat out shitty built clutches not allowing them to even work properly/at all to breaking other parts of peoples engines due to failures. The only difference is, with South Bend you could count on a company that backed their products and didn't make excuses to cover their ass, with Clutch Masters, not so much.

I am sure Mike will be fine, he might need to start selling some more South Bend clutches (some sort of 6 or 4 puck) for the higher power/more abusive guys because I certainly will be recommending anything BUT Clutch Masters from this day forward to people and would recommend people possibly give South Bend a call and see what they can offer in a pucked disk with something other than this ceramic (such as bronze, sintered iron, etc) or possibly start giving another company a shot that has a setup for these cars or is willing to make one. Mike should probably contact another vendor to broaden his product options, or like I said, get back to working with South Bend for a solution for the higher power cars.

As for me and R&D, I am done. I will get this car running again, drive it for another 6 months or so and possibly put it on the local Craigslist in hopes for some sailor fresh off deployment with a pocket full of money who wants a fast Audi to come along. I think my roommate sold his 03 B6 automatic quattro A4 for 11 or 12k to a sailor less than a year ago and it was only chipped/exhaust with some cheap 18s and lowered on some coils. For some reason I see a lot of A4s on base so I am sure if I clean up my 19" Mayas and throw them back on someone will scoop it up. I will then buy myself a B5 S4 and it will get a Tial 605 kit. It is pretty much set in my mind so I am quite confident unless I get layed off/lose my job/something else major happens it will happen before the end of this year. I am tired of fooling with a broken clutch or transmission every 3 months, and the low end torque of this stock s4 I have been driving for the past week is quite nice.

[sean1.8t]

As for me and R&D, I am done. I will get this car running again, drive it for another 6 months or so and possibly put it on the local Craigslist in hopes for some sailor fresh of deployment with a pocket full of money wants a fast Audi. For some reason I see a lot of A4s on base. I will then buy myself a B5 S4 and it will get a Tial 605 kit. It is pretty much set in my mind so I a quite confident unless I get layed off/lose my job/something else major happens it will happen before the end of this year. I am tired of fooling with a broken clutch or transmission every 3 months, and the low end torque of this stock s4 I have been driving for the past week is quite nice.

that's pretty much my plan. im tired of driving around a car that's fun some of the time, but a pain most of it. and it just doesn't satisfy my go fast hunger. im parting out and will be back another year and get into an Allroad with a 3.0l and 770 kit(or whatever else is the new rage when the time comes).

sometimes i think maybe a Prius is the answer. sure it's pretty much the lamest car in the world, and it's extremely far from the "green" factor that toyota claims, but it's an unmoddible car for the most part, and that's maybe what some of us need

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Someone has to of figured a way to make the electric motors wind higher or help the gas engine in acceleration, or some kind of mod for the gas engine to make them faster and I would have that done. There has to be a way to mod everything!

[A4SoftWalker]

Really, there's a second person? [>_<]

But in all seriousness, if you still have a 240mm flywheel lying around then all you'd need to do is buy the 240mm stage 3+ and give it a shot. However I'd call SPEC and tell them exactly what happened with Clutchmasters, tell them you're pissed off and you'd be willing to give their product a try. However tell them that you'll be providing forum feedback, both positive and negative and see if they're willing to give their word in that light.

Or maybe there's just really no clutch setup that works 100% of the time.

More people run the Spec3+ than care to speak up on here. I'm not shy I've had mine for 3 years now. All Spec needs is a group buy to re-cal the settings of their twin-clutch for the b6.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I spoke to Hood shortly today via email, and he said about replacing the ceramic disk with a bronze disk from the twin 850. seemed like it might be money

[A4 TSCHUSS]

More people run the Spec3+ than care to speak up on here. I'm not shy I've had mine for 3 years now. All Spec needs is a group buy to re-cal the settings of their twin-clutch for the b6.

What kind of power are you making though? And have you ever launched your car and if so more than once?


5857;6168154']I spoke to Hood shortly today via email, and he said about replacing the ceramic disk with a bronze disk from the twin 850. seemed like it might be money

That is what I just bought, yeah that hurts. I will not dare launch it though.

[drjonez]

multiplate carbon clutch. tis the only way....


bingo.

[a4darkness]

So now that Southbend and Clutchmasters have reported multiple failures have we come full circle again to SPEC? It makes me wonder why people are considering going back to Southbend when there haven't been any SPEC related failures since around 2007 when they had that bad run of clutch rivets?

This was exactly what I was thinking.


More people run the Spec3+ than care to speak up on here. I'm not shy I've had mine for 3 years now. All Spec needs is a group buy to re-cal the settings of their twin-clutch for the b6.

Was waiting for you to chime in SW.
Also, there's the guy with the black b6 Avant (MTM Stage II maybe?) with a Spec and a few others.

Might be incorrect but doesn't 034 run Spec clutches on most of their race / track / project cars as well?

[h_curtis]

Been working for me. [:D]

I don't beat on it like you guys though...

Been around drag racing all my life. When you say, " I don't beat on it like you guys though", that make the recommendation useless. If you are dumping a clutch at 6000 on a sticky track, it is nothing like some street driving. Finding the right clutch will be very difficult. These cars where not designed with 12 or less seconds in the 1/4 in mind. Good luck finding a clutch that will do the job, but when you do, you will probably discover something else in the drivetrain that needs beefed up.

[Wet0willy01]

...stares at brand new 850ss on work bench.

[drjonez]

Sort of related to this topic- why have none of the big power guys gone with a multi-plate clutch? Whether from CM or others...

[Dan[FN]6262]

...stares at brand new 850ss on work bench.

lmao!!!!!



dude, the only time that mine fused (and then shortly after broke itself free) was when I used launch control at 6k rpms on 16lbs of boost and forgot to turn off my freaking traction control. but the other dozen or more times that I've launched it, it was fine. smoked the tires and sent my eye balls in the back of my head.

[SleeperAvant]

http://www.034motorsport.com/clutches-flywheels-034motorsport-clutch-flywheel-packages-tilton-plate-carbon-racing-clutch-for-audis-p-18994.html

or this?

http://www.034motorsport.com/clutches-flywheels-034motorsport-clutch-flywheel-packages-tilton-plate-sintered-iron-racing-clutch-for-audis-p-18993.html

[drjonez]

http://www.034motorsport.com/clutches-flywheels-034motorsport-clutch-flywheel-packages-tilton-plate-carbon-racing-clutch-for-audis-p-18994.html

or this?

http://www.034motorsport.com/clutches-flywheels-034motorsport-clutch-flywheel-packages-tilton-plate-sintered-iron-racing-clutch-for-audis-p-18993.html

Carbon hands down.

It deals with heat better and will allow you to slip it some.

Then again, at $4k you could buy 3 of the iron setups....

[SleeperAvant]

Yeah, damn.

[Dan[FN]6262]

but the $1,400 clutch doesn't include the flywheel. expect to pay close to $1k, if not more, for the flywheel.

[AudiHere04]

Even though Clutch Masters is an established company making clutches. Lets be realistic, how long have they been making clutches for the B6 community? When it comes to production of B6 clutches Southbend is more established (unless i am mistaken). For Southbend's production quality to dive is bad. Hopefully Clutchmasters being new to the B6 market will take all these issues and iron them out, and do some more RnD.

HOWEVER. Clutchmasters being more reputable should have better customer service and stand behind their product. This is where i am disappointed in them.
Southbend has excellent customer service and i think most of us would agree. They stand behind their product. I too have had a SB clutch fuse and replaced w/o any hassle.

This is where i stand. Clutchmasters still needs time to and information from us to make a better product..SB needs to step up the quality of their clutches.
SB has the better customer service then CM.

EDIT: David can you confirm you turn Traction Control off when it fuses/breaks...i know this is a stupid question, but its innocent.

[Don Supreme]

My experiences with South Bend's customer service has been excellent as well... I had my first southbend clutch on my A4 come a part. The friction surface separated from the disk. They sent me a whole new clutch kit, no issues.

I ran that setup (Stage 4 at the time) on my 2871r elim, 35r setup w/ tons of launches and ran a 12.1 and many launches after that. It never failed again... In fact, it out lasted 1 tranny and 2 motors lolz.

So I put another South bend in my S4, 6 puck disk this time... Good customer services goes a long way.

[CoreyRS]

Well damn, now I'm afraid to ever buy a new clutch, just fOr the fact that I couldn't imagine swapping clutches as many times as you guys have.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I don't have traction control with my tune since it isn't programmed in with no maf

[SleeperAvant]

I'm ok so far on my SouthBed OFE SS clutch, just a few launches at around 5500rpm. But I don't plan on launching it much anymore.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I don't have traction control with my tune since it isn't programmer in with no maf

damn. then you have a hardcore old version of the 830 file lol. that must be some BETA ass shit. I bet your car would run a lot better by just getting reflashed with a new revision

[dougyfresh]

The OFE SS was the only clutch damn near being ran by EVERYONE on this forum back in 2005-2008.

and I am still running that clutch. I bought it in the end of 2007. Probably have 50k on it.

I don't launch my car though.

[dougyfresh]

clint just has some freak of nature disk, or he's not launching it like he says he is.

He went through a few discs if I remember. Well, at least one.

I've been in his car when he launches it on the street. Its a hard launch from 6krpm or so. I think being on the street helped as I do remember the tires spinning.

At the track? Never witnessed him launching at the track.

[EErie B6]

Well damn, now I'm afraid to ever buy a new clutch, just fOr the fact that I couldn't imagine swapping clutches as many times as you guys have.

mine has been great. Mike has been great. I would not be too worried, unless you are going with stupid amounts of power. the way i see it, i can build my car with a 28 series turbo, and have something that runs mid 12s with little fear of breaking stuff all the time... or i can go with something big and nasty, say i have a ton of power... never be able to put it down and constantly have my shit break. all this for a low 12. ha. (but thats another topic)

I dont think David has been completely forthcoming in his details with his experiences with Mike, CM, and possible solutions to his issues. I seriously doubt they are just hanging him out to dry like he claims.
He is asking for over 400% of what the vehicle was ever designed to do and he is 1 of a very small crowd to push this chassis to the point that he has. You cant expect to sail in virtually uncharted waters and not have any problems doing so... Especially on a budget.

I also find it funny that he drove 1:15 to a track to pound a 450hp car with out some way of getting it home in case something broke. [rolleyes]

[Dan[FN]6262]

I also find it funny that he drove 1:15 to a track to pound a 450hp car with out some way of getting it home in case something broke. [rolleyes]

thats exactly why I haven't went to the track yet. closest one to me is slightly over an hour away.

[Wet0willy01]

5857;6170000']damn. then you have a hardcore old version of the 830 file lol. that must be some BETA ass shit. I bet your car would run a lot better by just getting reflashed with a new revision

And be that much faster than yours

[Dan[FN]6262]

And be that much faster than yours

lmao! [:p]

[Don Supreme]

mine has been great. Mike has been great. I would not be too worried, unless you are going with stupid amounts of power. the way i see it, i can build my car with a 28 series turbo, and have something that runs mid 12s with little fear of breaking stuff all the time... or i can go with something big and nasty, say i have a ton of power... never be able to put it down and constantly have my shit break. all this for a low 12. ha. (but thats another topic)

I dont think David has been completely forthcoming in his details with his experiences with Mike, CM, and possible solutions to his issues. I seriously doubt they are just hanging him out to dry like he claims.
He is asking for over 400% of what the vehicle was ever designed to do and he is 1 of a very small crowd to push this chassis to the point that he has. You cant expect to sail in virtually uncharted waters and not have any problems doing so... Especially on a budget.

I also find it funny that he drove 1:15 to a track to pound a 450hp car with out some way of getting it home in case something broke. [rolleyes]

I dont think you are being fair. If the product is marketed to be able handle X horsepower / TQ (lets say 600 for agrument sake) then it should HANDLE IT...

How do they come up with these numbers, they throw some materials on a disk, do some math with the clamping force and then slap a number on it... BS... Things should be tested. Do you think they tested that X clutch would hold X power that they claimed it would? I highly doubt that. They put that responsibility on the end user.

Its false advertising and plain wrong.

On slightly different note, but related. I noticed the power rating on the SB clutches have gone down over the years. I think they have re-rated them (lower).

[Dolphin18T]

Been around drag racing all my life. When you say, " I don't beat on it like you guys though", that make the recommendation useless.

That's why I was being sarcastic. Not what I built the car for.

[AudiA4_20T]

mine has been great. Mike has been great. I would not be too worried, unless you are going with stupid amounts of power. the way i see it, i can build my car with a 28 series turbo, and have something that runs mid 12s with little fear of breaking stuff all the time... or i can go with something big and nasty, say i have a ton of power... never be able to put it down and constantly have my shit break. all this for a low 12. ha. (but thats another topic)

I dont think David has been completely forthcoming in his details with his experiences with Mike, CM, and possible solutions to his issues. I seriously doubt they are just hanging him out to dry like he claims.
He is asking for over 400% of what the vehicle was ever designed to do and he is 1 of a very small crowd to push this chassis to the point that he has. You cant expect to sail in virtually uncharted waters and not have any problems doing so... Especially on a budget.

I also find it funny that he drove 1:15 to a track to pound a 450hp car with out some way of getting it home in case something broke. [rolleyes]

This attitude helps nothing. Sorry for wanting a fast street car [rolleyes]

[a4darkness]

On slightly different note, but related. I noticed the power rating on the SB clutches have gone down over the years. I think they have re-rated them (lower).

< raises eyebrow >

[M-Hood]

I dont think you are being fair. If the product is marketed to be able handle X horsepower / TQ (lets say 600 for agrument sake) then it should HANDLE IT...

How do they come up with these numbers, they throw some materials on a disk, do some math with the clamping force and then slap a number on it... BS... Things should be tested. Do you think they tested that X clutch would hold X power that they claimed it would? I highly doubt that. They put that responsibility on the end user.

Its false advertising and plain wrong.

On slightly different note, but related. I noticed the power rating on the SB clutches have gone down over the years. I think they have re-rated them (lower).

But you seem to be leaving out 1 huge thing. The fact that the clutch ratings are for when the clutch is fully engaged and the car is rolling at speed, not how much tq it can hold during launching.
So exaclty how can there be any false advertising? Do you know how much ft lbs a AWD Turbo A4 makes during a launch? No one does because there are many things that come in to play.

As for David's clutch. Seems he is leaving out some facts.
1. He has had the clutch since the end of July 2010. It isn't like he just bought it last month.
2. He basically beats on the car nearly every chance he gets and didn't seem to any issue with the clutch during those 7 months other then it welding up 1 time before during a launch but yet not on any of the other times he launched the car.
3. The clutch held perfectly fine on his first run on his trip to the drag strip.
4. He made a 2nd pass not more then 30 minutes later which is when the clutch welded it self during the launch.
Clutch isn't going to just weld itself to the PP/Flywheel for no reason, it takes some serious heating and cooling to do that. The clutch/disk/PP dont heat up for no reason, it happens when the clutch slips even for a split second. When doing a 6k rpm launch at WOT the flywheel/PP are going to rotate plenty times before the disk is fully locked and rotating at the same speed as the disk. So the fact is that its not going to take much for that disk to heat up during a launch.
5. The fact that he is only paying a % of rebuilding his $1300 clutch that only has a 90 day warranty. But yet he is bitching about that since he isn't getting it done for free like wants. Last time I checked out of warranty means NO warranty period. But yet he is getting it covered at a small cost.

Come on David how about you put the EGO back in the box. At this point be happy your only paying $145 to get a fully built clutch back, could have cost you way more then that or you could have been looking at buying a whole new clutch. But hey I guess me working out a deal to get a 6-7 month old clutch that has been pretty beat on rebuilt for only $145 shipped just wasn't good enough customer service that you felt the need to do one of your normal " crying threads" on the forum. Suprise, like you haven't exactly pulled that many times before. Trying to make others think there is a problem with a product that 99.9999% of the customers buying the product will not have 1 problem with because they dont use the car the same way you do makes no sense at all to me or to most other people. Its just you being you.

As for people talking about Carbon clutch kits. Come on lets get real here, there isn't going to be any A4 owners that are going to be willing to pay $5k-$7k for a clutch like that. This is why there isn't any being produced for the A4 1.8t market. Just isn't going to happen.

The 5.5" multi plate carbon clutch kit are used on race cars only, not street cars. They wear quickly and need to be changed out often. Even CM offers a 5.5" clutch setup.

Twin plate clutch kits for the A4 have been around for some time. A4 owners dont use them because the A4 transmissions just cant handle how hard they hit and the multi plate clutch kits kit very hard since the disks are unsprung. Been there done that, broke 2 transmissions. Exactly why 1 of the A4 owners that tried a twin disk took it off the car right away and why Greg wants to take his off too. To use one would mean having to use a flow control valve to allow the clutch to engage slower then the pedal movement. This softens the tq shock of the clutch engagement, same way a sprung disk and dual mass flywheel are used.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Sort of related to this topic- why have none of the big power guys gone with a multi-plate clutch? Whether from CM or others...

People have ran the twin disks and weren't happy with them from pedal engagement problems, to being to noisy, to breaking, etc., that is why everyone has shyed away from them on their street cars would be my guess and is one reason I did.


5857;6170000']damn. then you have a hardcore old version of the 830 file lol. that must be some BETA ass shit. I bet your car would run a lot better by just getting reflashed with a new revision

Yes, there was no such thing as an 830 file when I got mine from Unitronic. That is why mine blows so much with requests in the low 10s a/f in the upper rpms, poor starts when the car is hot after running (starts right up when car is cold), etc.. I tried a few times to get a new file, apparently that company doesn't want to help much after they already have your money, that was why I was in high spirits when Ray from Rai said he would help but then failed to come through. It doesn't make sense to me if other people have an 830 file then why couldn't I get one flashed on my ecu?


mine has been great. Mike has been great. I would not be too worried, unless you are going with stupid amounts of power. the way i see it, i can build my car with a 28 series turbo, and have something that runs mid 12s with little fear of breaking stuff all the time... or i can go with something big and nasty, say i have a ton of power... never be able to put it down and constantly have my shit break. all this for a low 12. ha. (but thats another topic)

I dont think David has been completely forthcoming in his details with his experiences with Mike, CM, and possible solutions to his issues. I seriously doubt they are just hanging him out to dry like he claims.
He is asking for over 400% of what the vehicle was ever designed to do and he is 1 of a very small crowd to push this chassis to the point that he has. You cant expect to sail in virtually uncharted waters and not have any problems doing so... Especially on a budget.

I also find it funny that he drove 1:15 to a track to pound a 450hp car with out some way of getting it home in case something broke. [rolleyes]

First, you have no clue the difference my car would be to your car with a 28 series turbo on it. You can talk about ETs at a track and "putting the power down" but the car "puts the power down" just fine, it is transmissions or clutches being the problems when you launch the car. If I were to run a 28 series car down the highway it would be plain funny, a joke, comical, embarrasing for the owner. There is HUGE difference between running 108-110 on race gas to a car that runs 118mph without race gas.

A little example for you, I am sure most have seen the video, but here it is if you haven't. This is my car with my old turbo running a friends lighter b5 a4 with a 3071r (bigger than a 28 series) and look how rediculous it is when I turn the boost up, and that was with my last turbo, the car is a hair faster now. click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCPVTC3wVNM)

As for you saying I have lied about my dealings with Mike, etc, well I never once have had a problem with Mike, I have ordered from him multiple times and recommended 20, 30, hell maybe more people buy things from him throwing his business name out left and right since he is banned from this forum, so don't even go there. Besides this has nothing to do with Mike it is Clutch Masters, a company that doesn't stand behind their product and just asks for more money. As for my experiences with Clutch Masters, it is exactly as I told it. I was told the FX400 would work for my GT30r setup when I told them I was running upper 300s to 400whp range. It didn't and broke, I sent it back for inspection (nothing to do with Mike, directly between CM and myself) and they told me of the broken parts and said all they could do was offer me a discount on another one because the clutch failed from slipping (yes it did fail from slipping, but it was supposed to hold the power) then told me on the phone that clutch model would hold my power (which I ended up ordering from them the discounted clutch with nothing to do with Mike),. Trust me, why would I buy the same damn clutch twice if I was told something different? Then later on I call them back again when the new one started slipping and then I am told oh no that clutch won't work for you, well no crap it won't but I was told it would before and is why I bought it twice. Then to go on, this FX850SS was supposed to be the end all be all of street clutches with over double the clamping load of the FX400 and running a smaller diameter clutch disk and pressure plate to be lighter and have less rotational mass. It never slipped on me and I was happy like I always mentioned in the thread of mine I updated a few times about the experience with the clutch. I finally decided to put it to the test and went back to the track and then it welds up but that is my fault that I am expecting "400% more than the vehicle was designed to do?" Really? That is what the damn clutch was designed to do, to hold power, plain and simple. That is why the want $1500 for the damn thing!


And be that much faster than yours

Ouch


I dont think you are being fair. If the product is marketed to be able handle X horsepower / TQ (lets say 600 for agrument sake) then it should HANDLE IT...

How do they come up with these numbers, they throw some materials on a disk, do some math with the clamping force and then slap a number on it... BS... Things should be tested. Do you think they tested that X clutch would hold X power that they claimed it would? I highly doubt that. They put that responsibility on the end user.

Its false advertising and plain wrong.

On slightly different note, but related. I noticed the power rating on the SB clutches have gone down over the years. I think they have re-rated them (lower).

Exactly, it isn't this is a street/strip racing clutch that holds lots of power, but oh don't dare launch it or maybe slip it the slightest big or launch it at a high rpm, because then, well you might as well have a $400 clutch instead of this one because it won't work correctly either.

[Don Supreme]

But you seem to be leaving out 1 huge thing. The fact that the clutch ratings are for when the clutch is fully engaged and the car is rolling at speed, not how much tq it can hold during launching.
So exaclty how can there be any false advertising? Do you know how much ft lbs a AWD Turbo A4 makes during a launch? No one does because there are many things that come in to play.


Welcome back buddy...... I won't even bother to argue.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Hi Mike, how did I leave out I didn't buy the clutch last month? Everyone knows when I got the clutch, I made a thread about it, and updated the tread about it as it got broken in more and more? There is no secret there.


didn't seem to any issue with the clutch during those 7 months other then it welding up 1 time before during a launch but yet not on any of the other times he launched the car

And this, what do you mean any of the other times? I don't go around launching my car. I used to all the time when I had a gtrs but then I started breaking transmissions left and right. I drive the car down the road floor it in a gear, shift the gear and floor it again. I don't know how that is beating on the clutch, but if that is what you want to go with ok.

I don't see how this is my problem that the clutch welded up? Isn't that why this clutch was made, so we had a clutch that could go get ran hard?

Also, last time I checked you don't own Clutch Masters so why are you acting like you do now? This is not a problem with you, this is a problem with them.

[M-Hood]

But the fact is that you are way over the 90 day warranty aren't you?

Do you think every single person that reads your post knows you have had the clutch for 7 months? Lets remember this is an open forum, so people that aren't actual members can read your post if they come across it when doing a search for Clutch Masters clutch kits.

So are you saying in the 7 months you have had the clutch you never launched the car while on the street?

No I dont own Clutch Masters, but what exactly was the point of making this type of thread when the fact is that you are basically getting a completely refreshed clutch/flywheel kit with a stronger disk for a whole $145 shipped even though it wasn't under warranty?

[7speed]

Mike, my 850ss also fused on the very first launch 6k dump at the track. I had not beat on the clutch and I had more them the recommended 500 miles break in. Funny thing is my Fx400 never fused once and I launched that thkmg a lot.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't aware of any kind of warranty whether it be a week or a year, so 90 days is news to me. That is besides the point that it shouldn't be a far fetched expectation that the clutch would deliver. Maybe there should be a disclaimer added "this clutch will hold your power on the street, but beware if you launch it, the chance of it holding is 50/50?" But then again, when I had a South Bend clutch that broke in July/August of 2008 even though I bought it in December of 2006, they didn't even ask questions, they fixed the problem, done deal.

As for launching on the street, my car was launched once, the 2nd time being at the track and there was if I had to guess probably 5 months and 4000 miles between the two.

The point of the thread was I bought a clutch for well over $1000 that was supposed to be designed to work. Ultimately it didn't.

Oh, and while we have you here, what is the break in mileage for these things anyway? I have heard the 4 and 6 puck ceramic doesn't need a break in, then I heard it needs 500 miles, so what is it?

[[email protected]]

Just read your rant and when I get back from my snowboarding trip I might try to drop the hammer at 25psi and see if my FX400 fails or not. I've easily put thousands of miles on it so it should be 'broken in' by now.

Do you think the 240mm setup might have worked any better? Does Unorthadox make a clutch for our application?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Just read your rant and when I get back from my snowboarding trip I might try to drop the hammer at 25psi and see if my FX400 fails or not. I've easily put thousands of miles on it so it should be 'broken in' by now.

Do you think the 240mm setup might have worked any better? Does Unorthadox make a clutch for our application?

Charlie has the same 240mm setup. He says he put over 1200 miles on it before he did a launch and it welded the first time. Mike will tell you different though, that Charlie didn't have miles on it. Either way, everywhere I read about ceramic 6 puck disks half say no break in required.

This is what ACT Clutch's website says
For organic street discs "00 and SS" we recommend breaking in the clutch for 200-300 miles with mild engagement such as stop and go city driving prior to racing or spirited driving. ACT race discs usually only require a few hard slips to lap in the surfaces prior to normal driving or racing. Do not overheat the clutch during the break in period.



Oh and I just found out by going on their site that they offer kits for the 1.8t A4, never knew that.

What is also ironic about that quote from their site is they TELL YOU to slip the disk with "a few hard slips." But you slip a CM once and you get a weld job, proven by 4 people off the top of my head.

[A4SoftWalker]

Can't say I didn't call this one... my post from 2 years ago:


That's wierd took me 2000 mi to break in my Spec3+ It was smooth as butta after that...

If it means anything I read a similar post b4 I bought my Spec not sure if it was u or not but... I thought to myself that can happen to any clutch thats been abused. It didn't scare me...

Took the plunge and with many others on here we're happy with what we got so "raining on our parade" is not getting u anywhere.

In fact I'll be getting the Spec twin-clutch when my 3+ gives up. Like I said b4 on here I HATE groupthink everyone on here was singing the praises of Southbend less than a year ago now its ClutchMasters... next it will be CenterForce, or ***

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I will revisit a question I asked earlier since you never answered. What kind of power are you making though? And have you ever launched your car? I see Stg3 AWE in your sig so I am going to make the assumption you are running a GT28r kit which means you have what 230-240whp? I have damn near double that. You can't make an kind of comparision with your car in the slightest bit. I ran a South Bend OFE SS for 2 years and 7 months at closer to 300whp and that was with at minimum 100 passes down the 1/4 mile (aka 100+ launches at the track) and I used to launch on the street all the time too, as well as do donuts on dry pavement and slip the clutch out of the hole to take off quick from say a center lane of the road to get in to a gap of traffic with a full load of people in the car (more weight causing more load on the clutch). That clutch saw way more abuse than any other clutch I have owned 10 fold, but that was at much less power also like I am assuming you have if this awe stage 3 is correct in your sig. So your clutch info is in my opinion irrelevant.

[M-Hood]

Mike, my 850ss also fused on the very first launch 6k dump at the track. I had not beat on the clutch and I had more them the recommended 500 miles break in. Funny thing is my Fx400 never fused once and I launched that thkmg a lot.

How many miles doesn't really mean much, its how the clutch is driven. The material on the 6 puck is tapered, this means when you first install it a % of the material is touching the disk. The break-in period is the time it takes to make the material perfectly flat with the flywheel/PP surface. SO at first the clutch is going to hold less power and once the clutch is fully broken in it then will hold its max power. If you dont have enough miles on it the clutch can weld up because all very small % of the disk is heating up and slipping since it cant hold the amount of tq being applied to it. You and Charlie both welded the clutch during the break-in period. Last thing you want to do is launch the car before its fully broken in.


To be perfectly honest, I wasn't aware of any kind of warranty whether it be a week or a year, so 90 days is news to me. That is besides the point that it shouldn't be a far fetched expectation that the clutch would deliver. Maybe there should be a disclaimer added "this clutch will hold your power on the street, but beware if you launch it, the chance of it holding is 50/50?" But then again, when I had a South Bend clutch that broke in July/August of 2008 even though I bought it in December of 2006, they didn't even ask questions, they fixed the problem, done deal.

As for launching on the street, my car was launched once, the 2nd time being at the track and there was if I had to guess probably 5 months and 4000 miles between the two.

The point of the thread was I bought a clutch for well over $1000 that was supposed to be designed to work. Ultimately it didn't.

Oh, and while we have you here, what is the break in mileage for these things anyway? I have heard the 4 and 6 puck ceramic doesn't need a break in, then I heard it needs 500 miles, so what is it?

Maybe you should read up on the products you actually buy.


Clutch Masters » Pages » Warranty

Warranty
LIMITED WARRANTY


Clutch Masters, performance clutch products are warranted to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of purchase. Clutch Masters does not warrant or make any representations concerning its clutch products when not installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions for such installation and maintenance practices of the automotive industry.

Clutch Masters will not be liable for labor charges, and other intangible or consequent losses that might be claimed as a result of the failure of any part, nor shall they be liable for damages or injury to any persons or property resulting from the misuses or improper installation of any part subject to this warranty.

Clutch Masters reserves the right to examine all parts returned for warranty claim to determine whether or not any such part has failed because of a defect in material or workmanship. Clutch Masters' obligation under this warranty shall be limited to repairing, replacing, or crediting, at their option, any part found to be so defective, regardless of whether any part is repaired, replaced, or credited under this warranty. All transportation charges on the return of such parts must be prepaid by the customer. There are no other warranties either expressed or implied, which extend beyond those set forth in the preceding paragraphs.




IMPORTANT

**Products are only eligible for warranty if sent in with a copy of the original purchase receipt which is dated within the 90 day warranty period.**




As for Charlies car, wasn't anywhere near 1200 miles. You can say what you want to make your self feel good inside.


Charlie has the same 240mm setup. He says he put over 1200 miles on it before he did a launch and it welded the first time. Mike will tell you different though, that Charlie didn't have miles on it. Either way, everywhere I read about ceramic 6 puck disks half say no break in required.

This is what ACT Clutch's website says

Oh and I just found out by going on their site that they offer kits for the 1.8t A4, never knew that.

What is also ironic about that quote from their site is they TELL YOU to slip the disk with "a few hard slips." But you slip a CM once and you get a weld job, proven by 4 people off the top of my head.

Did you miss the part where they also say "do not over heat the clutch during the break-in period"?

Well just showes you how little you actually know about clutches. First off they are saying to slightly slip the clutch, not go out and launch the car at 6k rpms so it slips so much that the material becomes read hot and then cools quickly after it is fully engaged. HUGE difference smart one. The ACT clutches for the A4 1.8t have been around for years after they copied the WOA clutch kits which were made by a friend of mine. They offer a street cltuch which is just an organic disk and a race clutch which uses a 4 puck. Basically the same 2 clutch kits that Sach Racing offers for the 1.8t.

As for the amount of break-in, it depends on the shop making the clutchs kits and how tapered the material is. My old WOA race cluthes needed no break-in period because the materal was perfectly flat to match the flywheel/PP. So once it was put into the car it was already making 100% contact on both sides. The CM kits do not come that way, so they do have a break-in period. Fact is there is no such thing as a set amount of miles, this is because miles has nothing to do with how much the clutch has been used. If the clutch is fully engage and the car is driven without going WOT the clutch isn't exactly being used all that much. This is why most people say to make sure to do plenty of traffic driving or do short WOT springs in high gear starting low in the rpms to put the clutch thru a work out. If you are not sure the clutch is not fully broken in the last thing you want to do is a high rpm clutch dump launch. Might as well start off with doing a slow roll and then WOT with the clutch fully engaged.


As for your clutch. I was even able to get CM to increase the clamping load slightly.

[7speed]

I had a little over 500 miles stop and go traffic along with a 130 mile drive down to the track. (total of over 650+ miles) I then gave my car 1.5 hours to cool down before my first time down the track. the clutch was broken in per specifications.

Mike this is not an attack against you in anyway.

I'm simply stating what happened. I do feel that If a company advertises a product, they should stand behind said product. 1st the overrated the FX400, 2.) it appears that they have not properly rated the FX850SS. Everyone that has purchased the clutch has had a failure. There is a PROBLEM.

[HTA A4]

Didn't have time to read through this whole thread but David, if you still need a clutch, or just want to try a SB again. Let me know.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Thanks Anthony, but as I said earlier I have already paid to have this one fixed. It worked perfectly fine for day to day driving, which is what it will do for the rest of its life when I own it until I sell the car and get something else hopefully by the end of the year (b5 s4). I never once felt it even remotely slipping, and trust me I am well versed in a slipping clutch since I had 3 of them previously, 2 of them also Clutch Masters [:p]

[20vturbo]

bottom line is that 7 months later it slipped and welded, something that is not supposed to do...And how are we supposed to know if it's properly broken in if the surface is not even etc etc..Am i now to take the whole thing off and measure after 500kms..How can a manufacturer claim the the installer had grease on his hands and that's the cause for the clutch welding..Did they take the disk to csi miami???This whole thing is just bullshit, another company choosing the easy way out and blaming the customer, why? because it's easy and convenient and more $ at the end of the month...I had Southbend and never had any problems with it, it was a bit harsh and chatter and this is why I choose to go with CM because it was advertised as oem in terms of feeling but the ability to hold a lot of power...A lot of these manufacturers have experience with front or rear wheel drive cars, where no matter the power you launch and just smoke the wheels, but the Audi in general it's very rare they would peel the wheels...Southbend has the advantage because they also build clutches for large trucks, which are closer in terms of stress to an awd clutch...If mine fucks up it's back to SB

[SleeperAvant]

Does anyone have any experience with these Tilton clutches other than 034?

[Dan[FN]6262]

[az]

[Dan[FN]6262]

It worked perfectly fine for day to day driving, which is what it will do for the rest of its life

until someone claims to have beat you.

[EErie B6]

This attitude helps nothing. Sorry for wanting a fast street car [rolleyes]
There is nothing wrong with wanting a "fast" street car. We can talk a long time about what your definition of "fast" is and the logic of trying to achieve it with a full weight B6.


You can talk about ETs at a track and "putting the power down" but the car "puts the power down" just fine, it is transmissions or clutches being the problems when you launch the car. If I were to run a 28 series car down the highway it would be plain funny, a joke, comical, embarrasing for the owner.If you truly believe this why are you wasting your time at a track? e-dick swinging? ET is a measure of how fast ones car is and a good one at that. know what... im just not going to go there. I can argue this all day but it is not worth the effort.


As for you saying I have lied about my dealings with Mike, etc
Show me where i said you lied. I never once claimed you lied. I basically said (translated) I did not think you were bring all the facts of the matter to the table. Now that Mike has spoken up it proved true did it not?

As for everyone else, your questions/comments/flames have been addressed by others members and there is not point in me repeating the info again.

[EErie B6]

5857;6173242']until someone claims to have beat you.

lmao, this is funny on 2 accounts...

are you referring to "It worked perfectly fine for day to day driving" where once it has been broken he starts claiming clutch problems?

or

"which is what it will do for the rest of its life" where you are calling BS knowing full well he will be back at it soon as it happens?

well done good sir!

[Dan[FN]6262]

I'm happy with my POS stupid under rated FX850SS

and

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/584/funnypicturesowlwrong.jpg

[dougyfresh]

Does anyone have any experience with these Tilton clutches other than 034?

Yes. Autospeed uses them on their B5 S4s. I have been told the pedal feel is very very stiff. I think Adam has one on his S4 (evilevo). You can read his thread and talk to him for first hand input.

I would not want one on my A4.

I actually think my SB pedal feel is too stiff as it aggravates the tendinitis in my left knee when I am in a lot of traffic. Most of my driving is highway so it hasn't been much of a problem the past year.

[Don Supreme]

Yes. Autospeed uses them on their B5 S4s. I have been told the pedal feel is very very stiff. I think Adam has one on his S4 (evilevo). You can read his thread and talk to him for first hand input.

I would not want one on my A4.

I actually think my SB pedal feel is too stiff as it aggravates the tendinitis in my left knee when I am in a lot of traffic. Most of my driving is highway so it hasn't been much of a problem the past year.

Adam had one, but the splines on the clutch disk that connect to input shaft let go...............

Now he runs a 6 puck SB.

[M-Hood]

Dont worry not taking it that way.

As for the rating on the FX850SS, can you please tell me where anyone has given that clutch a "rating"? Fact is its not even a clutch CM sells to the public, that it is a clutch I had them custom make for ME.
http://www.clutchmasters.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&MakeModelID=10&MakeID=2&Engine=1.8L+Turbo&FromYear=1997&ToYear=2001

I even have one in my car which makes way more power then anyone else running that clutch. Difference is mine has a Sintered Iron disk. You, Dan and David are not the only people with the FX850SS. Fact is there are other people running the exact same thing you guys have but make more power then the 3 of you. Even Lucas in Australia is running one on his fully built 2.2 liter GT35r B5.

So the FX850SS can always be built to hold more power and hold that power during a launching, but at the expense of how it works/feels on the street. Just cant have your cake and eat it too.
I had a custom 228mm clutch that I ran for a very long time that was able to handle everything I threw at it even launcing at 570awhp, but isn't exactly a clutch anyone here would want on their car seeing that it makes the SB SS feel like it has a very soft pedal. Even holding the pedal at mid point was not easy on the leg. That was a dual diaphram clutch that had 4800 lbs of clamping load, more then double what the SB SS and CM 240mm kit have. Even 1200 lbs more then the FX850. CM is even willing to make dual diaphram clutch setups for me, but I just dont think many A4 owners are going to want to run it. I dont even think the B6 hydraulics can handle it. There were 2 B6 that couldn't even handle a CM 240mm setup made with a PP that had 2500 lbs. Which is why they went back to the 2200 lbs setup.


Does anyone have any experience with these Tilton clutches other than 034?
I have. Eurocode had one in their Twin GT B5 S4 that I drove during one of the ETGP's for the drag racing event.
It is stiff and very on/off. Not a clutch you want to be using on a daily driver. Plus you cant fit a triple plate on a A4 1.8t, just not enough room. A twin plate will fit, but again its over kill and really hard on the transmission because they use unsprung disks on a single mass flywheel.

The longitude 1.8t owners that pretty much only use their cars at the track run twin plate clutch kits like the FX700 or FX850. A few of those guys would be Jet Jockey(Mike) and Aaron with the 1.8t Audi coupe drag car. Brian with the VR6/01E B5 runs a custom FX850 setup.

[SleeperAvant]

Interesting, thanks for the info, guys.

[jmw241]

I'll read the whole thread later on but let me just say that I do like my 228mm fx400 6puck.

At this point I have 14k miles on it. Over 50+ standing 6k drops (most were with the ko3) and I have driven the car very hard over those 14k miles. Hard shifts ect. Ect.

The noise at 2-2.2k has goten better over time and became much better with the gtx on the car, as opposed to the ko3.

Also, the daily driveabilty of the clutch has goten worse, engagement has been getting harsher and I find that I'm grinding gears more and more (Don't know why, but my driving style has not chaned). Overall I am satisfied, I feel that it has taken an awful lot of abuse, and on a platform as heavy as the b6 too boot. Something tells me that by mid summer I'll need a new clutch though, and unless something changes at clutch masters I WILL NOT buy a product from them until these issues are publicly acknowledged and addressed by them.

[M-Hood]

Which issues would that be? Might want to read the thread first. lol

[v dub'n]

I've had the fx700 in my car for sometime now, never had a single problem with it, I even drive the car on the street and the car has seen tons of launches. There's nothing wrong with these clutches personally I think its the connection to the pedals that's breaking them.
Thanks mike for a wicked clitch!!!

[ZimbutheMonkey]

It worked perfectly fine for day to day driving, which is what it will do for the rest of its life when I own it

Oh grandpa, you and your stories [>_<]

[AudiA4_20T]

Mike, so when these companies advertise a clutch that can hold x torque, and say street/drag use, are they assuming that we go to the track and roll out so we can run 14 second 1/4 miles? Is that what you do when you run your gutted race car? Because that is news to me, maybe I'll have to do it too

[A4 TSCHUSS]

If you truly believe this why are you wasting your time at a track? e-dick swinging? ET is a measure of how fast ones car is and a good one at that. know what... im just not going to go there. I can argue this all day but it is not worth the effort.

I go to the track because it is fun and I enjoy it, just like some people like climbing mountains, I like racing and going fast. And yes there is also competition for the coveted lowest ET. But I guess you don't know that most people will say they don't care about the ET, they want to see the trap speed since ET is so driver dependent due to needing a good 60ft, good shifting, shifting at the right rpms, etc. I guess you also don't realize that the vast majority of fast stage 3 S4s run low 12s but destroy nearly everything on the road, because like I said, you don't have to account for something as huge as a good start that could cause a big shift in ET.

Show me where i said you lied. I never once claimed you lied. I basically said (translated) I did not think you were bring all the facts of the matter to the table. Now that Mike has spoken up it proved true did it not?

You said "I dont think David has been completely forthcoming in his details," so what details are those? Everything Mike said is known by damn near everyone, there are no secrets. I posted a thread when I got the clutch and installed it on July 31st. I updated the post a few different times as I got more and more miles on it. I posted in Dan's thread about the clutch since he had one too, I posted in Sam's thread when he got the clutch. Pretty sure most people know I didn't buy this last month. Next, it is no secret that I drive the car hard, a person new to the forum could probably tell you that or someone browsing youtube looking up B6 A4 stuff and seeing all my videos, so yeah, no truth left out there, that is pretty much common knowledge isn't it? In my first post I stated what happened at the track, so Mike repeating exactly what I said didn't change anything there either, that leaves me paying the $145 to get it fixed which I also posted. So do tell me young scholar where "now that Mike has spoken up it proved true?" It changed nothing because like I said, there were no secrets/anything left out wise guy.




Oh grandpa, you and your stories [>_<]

I didn't say I wasn't going to go fast through the gears, I am not going to test if it will hold a launch again, I will never be a grandpa driver.


How can a manufacturer claim the the installer had grease on his hands and that's the cause for the clutch welding..Did they take the disk to csi miami???This whole thing is just bullshit, another company choosing the easy way out and blaming the customer, why? because it's easy and convenient and more $ at the end of the month

I really wish I would have taken better pictures now, but I never in a million years though something like this would happen or I damn sure would have. I only have quick cell pics of the disk which aren't that great. And if there was any kind of grease it was my finger prints from grabbing at the disk trying to pull it off the damn flywheel before I had to use a screw driver to pry it off.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0239.jpg

[M-Hood]

They dont assume we do anything other then drive our cars. lol
The numbers they advertise are NOT for launching period, it is when the clutch is fully engaged before getting into power. So while driving or say the car is on the dyno.
Not exactly news breaking info, just takes a little common senses to figure out.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Interesting that there are gaps in the glazed portions. Back to my theory that if there are uneven surfaces on the flywheel, it localizes the heat and welds things together. Is it possible that the uneven surfaces are caused not by wear, but by deposits of overheated clutch material over time. Do enough launches and over time, particles of an overheated clutch actually bond to the flywheel and starts a chain reaction that keeps building up a high spot over time and launches that finally overheats and fuses?

[M-Hood]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0239.jpg

I can see the grease marks already. The lines between the pads and the hub. If grease is put on the spline it is pushed outward as the clutch spins.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

But how does that explain the two distinct bands? If the grease was being flung out, wouldn't it distribute in such a manner that it would form a solid band? Put another way, how did the grease skip over a portion of the clutch face?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I think Mike is just stretching now. Come on now. I have no clue what those "lines" can be but I do notice how beautifully clean the pads are directly in line with those "grease" lines [:p]

Oh and Zimba, only problem with your theory of
Do enough launches and over time, particles of an overheated clutch actually bond to the flywheel and starts a chain reaction that keeps building up a high spot over time and launches that finally overheats and fuses?

Is the car would have to do a bunch of launches for this to happen right? [:p] So think of a new theory! [:)]

Oh and there are "gaps" in the glazing spots because that ring of the pad is now on the pressure plate or flywheel so that thin ring you see is actually a trench since the rest is on the other part of the clutch.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0242.jpg

And the inner most part of the pads don't make contact with the floating ring, they never get touched.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0166.jpg

[7speed]

Well this kinda sucks for 2 reason :

1- The long awaited return of Mr. Hood comes and comes back with an argumentative thread
2- I'm afraid to go the track and use my clutch for the exact reason that it was purchased (hold power and take launches)

Mike what do you recommend that we do to rectify that issue ?

[20vturbo]

I can see the grease marks already. The lines between the pads and the hub. If grease is put on the spline it is pushed outward as the clutch spins.

How do you know it's grease?? it could be humidity or it could be there from before assembly or shipping...Why are these lines just where the pucks are?? I always used some grease on the spline, are we not supposed to?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Put a stock clutch back in because it will hold launches just as good. Ok, ok I am kidding. Don Supreme ran a South Bend OFE SS in his GT35r car and raced it, and Clint did too with his 35r. Kinda crazy those things worked at these kind of power levels. I am really curious with a stiffened clamping pressure plate like "the Eurocode mod" back in the day where they supposibly increased the load a lot if that clutch would be descent, or maybe use their DXD puck disks with something like bronze which is what I will have now.

[20vturbo]

I think Mike is just stretching now. Come on now. I have no clue what those "lines" can be but I do notice how beautifully clean the pads are directly in line with those "grease" lines [:p]

Oh and Zimba, only problem with your theory of

Is the car would have to do a bunch of launches for this to happen right? [:p] So think of a new theory! [:)]

Oh and there are "gaps" in the glazing spots because that ring of the pad is now on the pressure plate or flywheel so that thin ring you see is actually a trench since the rest is on the other part of the clutch.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0242.jpg

And the inner most part of the pads don't make contact with the floating ring, they never get touched.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0166.jpg

I can see that being a problem...what's the point of having pads that large if they don't make contact..I can also see that part of the disk torsion under hard launches which can explain why the uneven wear on the pads...it would make sense if the ring makes contact with the whole surface of the pad, it will hold more power also, could it be that they sent you the ring for a different app...You should point that to them, there is no point of having that weight on the disk if it's not used...That picture makes no sense to me

[7speed]

Yes that picture concerns me greatly also. I need to look back at my pics to see if mine is the same.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

How do you know it's grease?? it could be humidity or it could be there from before assembly or shipping...Why are these lines just where the pucks are?? I always used some grease on the spline, are we not supposed to?

It doesn't even matter, I dont put grease on my spline. [:p] Keep streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/71e7e5bd.jpg

[7speed]

Damn I don't have pics like the one David took. David does(did) the exterior of your clutch disc line up flush with the metal disc ?

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/audizine/Parts/IMG_7501.jpg

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I think Mike is just stretching now. Come on now. I have no clue what those "lines" can be but I do notice how beautifully clean the pads are directly in line with those "grease" lines [:p]

Oh and Zimba, only problem with your theory of

Is the car would have to do a bunch of launches for this to happen right? [:p] So think of a new theory! [:)]

Oh and there are "gaps" in the glazing spots because that ring of the pad is now on the pressure plate or flywheel so that thin ring you see is actually a trench since the rest is on the other part of the clutch.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0242.jpg

And the inner most part of the pads don't make contact with the floating ring, they never get touched.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0166.jpg

1) that is wierd that almost 1/3 of the clutch surface is unused. That seems like a bit of a design flaw.

2) I guess that leaves the question of how was enough heat generated to fuse the two surfaces? Now, as we've seen, only using 2/3 of the available clutch surface doesn't leave much room for heat absorption. That, seems like CM's fault. Irrespective of that though, how did the thing heat to the point of welding? It doesn't seem that a single launch would do it unless you rode the clutch the entire 1/4 mile (which I can't see you doing). Not saying that to accuse you, however it kind of begs explanation. If there's a reasonable explanation then what's your theory?

3) Back to my original line of inquiry, if the only part of the clutch that got welded was that small band, wouldn't that mean that it was contacting the flywheel face more than the rest of the clutch? That makes the most sense in the context you're describing. A single hard launch with a small amount of clutch actually contacting would probably overheat the clutch in a very short time (which seems to corroborate your account of events)

[TonyD]

I had a Southbend FE on my B6 A4 and it was the best clutch I've ever had. It had the perfect pedal feel (very stiff) and a very early release point. I loved that about it. I was able to literally beat the shit out of that thing and it just held up. Granted, I only had bolt on mods with no turbo upgrade, but that thing was launched over 100 times. After about 45k miles, it started to slip. The tech said that since I didn't have the power that the clutch was meant for, the pressure plate made grooves in the flywheel or something along those lines. After a resurfacing, I was good to go! Just thought I'd post my experience with Southbend while we were comparing.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Outer edge of pad is slightly in from the outer edge of that floating disk.

[20vturbo]

In my own world..fusing is caused by heat..why does heat occur? heat is released when 2 materials rub against each other...More surface would increase friction and reduce slippage? yes I am willing to bet that it was fused to the ring and not the flywheel..If the answer is yes then that is your problem, the disk is slipping on the ring...I would not reinstall that clutch with that same type of ring, period

[A4 TSCHUSS]

1) that is wierd that almost 1/3 of the clutch surface is unused. That seems like a bit of a design flaw.

2) I guess that leaves the question of how was enough heat generated to fuse the two surfaces? Now, as we've seen, only using 2/3 of the available clutch surface doesn't leave much room for heat absorption. That, seems like CM's fault. Irrespective of that though, how did the thing heat to the point of welding? It doesn't seem that a single launch would do it unless you rode the clutch the entire 1/4 mile. Not saying that to accuse you, however it kind of begs explanation. If there's a reasonable explanation then what's your theory?

To be clear, I am not argueing with you, I was just saying what you said couldn't work since the car hadn't been launched a ton of times for build up or whatever to occur to make any sense of what you thought maybe could have happened. And no way I rode the clutch going down the strip, that would be plain crazy. Again, not attacking you.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

In my own world..fusing is caused by heat..why does heat occur? heat is released when 2 materials rub against each other...More surface would increase friction and reduce slippage? yes I am willing to bet that it was fused to the ring and not the flywheel..If the answer is yes then that is your problem, the disk is slipping on the ring...I would not reinstall that clutch with that same type of ring, period

It fused to both ring and flywheel.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0237.jpg

[ZimbutheMonkey]

To be clear, I am not argueing with you, I was just saying what you said couldn't work since the car hadn't been launched a ton of times for build up or whatever to occur to make any sense of what you thought maybe could have happened. And no way I rode the clutch going down the strip, that would be plain crazy. Again, not attacking you.

No problem, I just wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't trying to pin this on you. I'm tossing out the theory to account for why it could have happened in such a short amount of time.

I did a non-ninja edit that didn't make it in time, so here it is

3) Back to my original line of inquiry, if the only part of the clutch that got welded was that small band (or two based on the flywheel pic), wouldn't that mean that it was contacting the flywheel face more than the rest of the clutch? That makes the most sense in the context you're describing. A single hard launch with a small amount of clutch material actually contacting would probably overheat the clutch in a very short time (which seems to corroborate your account of events) How the uneven surfaces came to exist, I can't say for sure, could be previous driving, could be bad machining on CM's part.

[20vturbo]

It fused to both ring and flywheel.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0237.jpg

what are these holes in the flywheel in the friction surface? si that material left from the disk in that area??

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Not sure what the holes are, but yes that is the part of the disk that was left behind right in line with all those holes.

[20vturbo]

No problem, I just wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't trying to pin this on you. I'm tossing out the theory to account for why it could have happened in such a short amount of time.

I did a non-ninja edit that didn't make it in time, so here it is

3) Back to my original line of inquiry, if the only part of the clutch that got welded was that small band (or two based on the flywheel pic), wouldn't that mean that it was contacting the flywheel face more than the rest of the clutch? That makes the most sense in the context you're describing. A single hard launch with a small amount of clutch material actually contacting would probably overheat the clutch in a very short time (which seems to corroborate your account of events) How the uneven surfaces came to exist, I can't say for sure, could be previous driving, could be bad machining on CM's part.

There is definetely no evidence there that points to being his fault...let's leave aside "hard launch", it is made for that so that should not even be mentioned...it failed and they should have replaced at no cost without a doubt...to find out what happened, that would be their problem after that.There is without a doubt a good set up and would like to see the problem with it solved for my future use..this is why it is good not to jump at a new product, lately the r&d is supported by the end user

[M-Hood]

1) that is wierd that almost 1/3 of the clutch surface is unused. That seems like a bit of a design flaw.

2) I guess that leaves the question of how was enough heat generated to fuse the two surfaces? Now, as we've seen, only using 2/3 of the available clutch surface doesn't leave much room for heat absorption. That, seems like CM's fault. Irrespective of that though, how did the thing heat to the point of welding? It doesn't seem that a single launch would do it unless you rode the clutch the entire 1/4 mile (which I can't see you doing). Not saying that to accuse you, however it kind of begs explanation. If there's a reasonable explanation then what's your theory?

3) Back to my original line of inquiry, if the only part of the clutch that got welded was that small band, wouldn't that mean that it was contacting the flywheel face more than the rest of the clutch? That makes the most sense in the context you're describing. A single hard launch with a small amount of clutch actually contacting would probably overheat the clutch in a very short time (which seems to corroborate your account of events)

It wasn't designed to use a 6 puck which has a different shape then the floating plate which is part of the twin disk setup.

This is the disk it was designed to use.
http://px6.streetfire.net/0002/50/98/2000589_600.jpg

The contact area with the floating disk is still going to be the same. The size of the floating disk cant be any larger seeing that the inner side is where the diaphram is located and where the fingers go down. If it was any larger the fingers would hit.

[7speed]

So the disc pictured, does the entire surface area make contact with the ring ?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Here was the launch [=(][=(][:(]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MENrzmz21Z8

[M-Hood]

what are these holes in the flywheel in the friction surface? si that material left from the disk in that area??

The outer bolt holes are for the 8.5"(FX850) and the inner is for the 7.25"(FX600/FX700)

[20vturbo]

Not sure what the holes are, but yes that is the part of the disk that was left behind right in line with all those holes.

prob material from the disk scraped by the holes then caught between the disk and flywheel, when it got heated it bonded to the fw..these holes should not be there

[M-Hood]

I dont have a picture of the plate sitting on the disk and it has already shipped out to David.

[20vturbo]

The outer bolt holes are for the 8.5"(FX850) and the inner is for the 7.25"(FX600/FX700)

So there is no operational benefit other that convenience for selling the fw for both apps... i hope you agree that having these holes thare might pose a problem??

[M-Hood]

prob material from the disk scraped by the holes then caught between the disk and flywheel, when it got heated it bonded to the fw..these holes should not be there

Then I guess holes in a drilled brake rotor shouldn't be ther either. lol

The inner holes are tapered when used as a FX850. They should not have a edge that would catch the disk material. Still the fact is that his disk welded on both sides of the disk, not just on the flywheel side.

None of the FX850 twin disk users have had an issue. They do this for many of their twin disk applications.

[7speed]

Mike I plan to go to the track here in the next couple of weeks. If my clutch fuses and I'm out of my warranty period, what is my course of action ?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

It wasn't designed to use a 6 puck which has a different shape then the floating plate which is part of the twin disk setup.

This is the disk it was designed to use.
http://px6.streetfire.net/0002/50/98/2000589_600.jpg



The contact area with the floating disk is still going to be the same. The size of the floating disk cant be any larger seeing that the inner side is where the diaphram is located and where the fingers go down. If it was any larger the fingers would hit.


OK, I think that explains some of it then. Compared to the 6 puck (eyeballed), that disk looks to have anywhere from 25-33% more friction surface area. Was David's clutch a hybrid of some sort that used some of his original clutch components or was this full face disk released later? Also, was david's 6 puck made of the same material?

[M-Hood]

It doesn't even matter, I dont put grease on my spline. [:p] Keep streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching.



You dont put oil on your spline either but yet you have ended up with oil all over your disk. But I guess that is the clutch companies fault too and they should pay for new parts for your clutch?
I have had plenty of other A4 owners end up having something happen to their disk and none of them have complained about having to pay to fix it.

The grease could have came from the input shaft bearing. But who knows. Exactly why would CM need to lie about grease being on the disk of a clutch kit that is way out of warranty. If you would like I can drive back there and take close up pics of it and run a white glove on it. lol

[20vturbo]

Then I guess holes in a drilled brake rotor shouldn't be ther either. lol

The inner holes are tapered inward when used as a FX850. They should not have a edge that would catch the disk material. Still the fact is that his disk welded on both sides of the disk, not just on the flywheel side.

I was ready to bet you're gonna say that????You forgot a small detail, it is a clutch not brake disk...I don't understand why you are beeing so defensive and feel offended...I think everybody here wants to help resolve the quirks in this set up, the fact that you have several people welding the clutch makes it evident that there are some.. I think a more cooperative attitude from your part would help everyone.

To draw a line so far...
1 THE HOLES...You stated "The outer bolt holes are for the 8.5"(FX850) and the inner is for the 7.25"(FX600/FX700)"... I undestand production cost but in this case you cannot do that, if these holes where in an area where they are not touched by the disk I would have nothing against it, but in this case his piicture shows that the holes are interfering with the operation...THE HOLES NEED TO GO

2 THE RING SURFACE TO THE PAD... You stated "It wasn't designed to use a 6 puck which has a different shape then the floating plate which is part of the twin disk setup"...You can't design it for something than throw a different disk in there and expect it to work on the first shot, in some cases it may, in this case it didn't...THE RING HAS TO BE REDESIGNED... in case it cannot be because of interference then redesign the whole pressure plate assembly...
You will have more headaches in the future if you leave it like that...And keep in mind I have nothing against you, I am not bashing your product in any way or CM, I have an fx400 with a 6 puck, in case it lets go I might buy this if the problems are resolved with it.

[M-Hood]

OK, I think that explains some of it then. Compared to the 6 puck (eyeballed), that disk looks to have anywhere from 25-33% more friction surface area. Was David's clutch a hybrid of some sort that used some of his original clutch components or was this full face disk released later? Also, was david's 6 puck made of the same material?

The clutch setup David had was the setup CM put together for me, same kit all of the other FX850SS owners have. I can have the FX850SS made with any type of disk or material I want.
No, the 6 puck David had is a standard ceramic which is used on the FX400 kits. The new disk is a Bronze Ceramic which comes standard on the FX850 TD.

This is the disk on my FX850SS which is sintered iron.
http://px6.streetfire.net/0001/37/85/1987358_600.jpg

[M-Hood]

I was ready to bet you're gonna say that????You forgot a small detail, it is a clutch not brake disk...I don't understand why you are beeing so defensive and feel offended...I think everybody here wants to help resolve the quirks in this set up, the fact that you have several people welding the clutch makes it evident that there are some.. I think a more cooperative attitude from your part would help everyone.

To draw a line so far...
1 THE HOLES...You stated "The outer bolt holes are for the 8.5"(FX850) and the inner is for the 7.25"(FX600/FX700)"... I undestand production cost but in this case you cannot do that, if these holes where in an area where they are not touched by the disk I would have nothing against it, but in this case his piicture shows that the holes are interfering with the operation...THE HOLES NEED TO GO

2 THE RING SURFACE TO THE PAD... You stated "It wasn't designed to use a 6 puck which has a different shape then the floating plate which is part of the twin disk setup"...You can't design it for something than throw a different disk in there and expect it to work on the first shot, in some cases it may, in this case it didn't...THE RING HAS TO BE REDESIGNED... in case it cannot be because of interference then redesign the whole pressure plate assembly...
You will have more headaches in the future if you leave it like that...And keep in mind I have nothing against you, I am not bashing your product in any way or CM, I have an fx400 with a 6 puck, in case it lets go I might buy this if the problems are resolved with it.


Yes becuase the function of a rotor and flywheel are completely different. Come on, they are a metal surface that are spinning and another part being pressed against it. The only diference is the holes on the rotor are there for cooling. Do you see them cutting into the pads? If they did then the pads would wear at a much quicker rate then a rotor that is not cross drilled.

Like I already said, The holes have never been an issue on the twin diks which also makes contact where the holes are located. The amount of disks on the clutch setup is not going to change anything with the holes.

I haven't had a problem and peple have been running the FX850SS since early last year. Making the puck smaller so it is the size of the floating disk is just going to reduce the overall contact of the disk but just on the flywheel side.

[M-Hood]

Mike I plan to go to the track here in the next couple of weeks. If my clutch fuses and I'm out of my warranty period, what is my course of action ?

Sam it isn't like you are going to be left hanging. I will take care of you just like I did David and many other people.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

You dont put oil on your spline either but yet you have ended up with oil all over your disk. But I guess that is the clutch companies fault too and they should pay for new parts for your clutch?
I have had plenty of other A4 owners end up having something happen to their disk and none of them have complained about having to pay to fix it.

The grease could have came from the input shaft bearing. But who knows. Exactly why would CM need to lie about grease being on the disk of a clutch kit that is way out of warranty. If you would like I can drive back there and take close up pics of it and run a white glove on it. lol

I am not sure what you are saying. Correct, I don't put grease on the spline, I went and took a pic of the spline just for you so you can see it, so your next attempt to pin it on something of my fault is the input shaft bearing? Really? Well also seen in the pic, there is a nice and clean, well a little rusted area everywhere around where there would be grease if that was the problem. Clearly it is not.

As for oil all over a disk, the only thing I can think of is when my rear main seal broke and leaked oil all over everything. In that even, I called up and asked if I could clean the material with brake cleaner to get the oil off and it perhaps work. At that time I gave it a shot when I was told that ceramic isn't porous and it shouldn't have soaked in. That didn't work after reinstalling it and it continued slipping. I ordered a new disk and paid for it with no intension what so ever for anyone to cover that because that wasn't a clutch failure per say. So I am not sure if this is what you are talking about or not, but like I said, I didn't ask for anything or expect anything whne that happened. So I am confused here.

As for grease on this disk, like I said, the only grease on that disk would have been from me grabbing it after I took it out or in the process of trying to rip it off.

[20vturbo]

Yes becuase the function of a rotor and flywheel are completely different. Come on, they are a metal surface that are spinning and another part being pressed against it. The only diference is the holes on the rotor are there for cooling. Do you see them cutting into the pads? If they did then the pads would wear at a much quicker rate then a rotor that is not cross drilled.

Like I already said, The holes have never been an issue on the twin diks which also makes contact where the holes are located. The amount of disks on the clutch setup is not going to change anything with the holes.

I haven't had a problem and peple have been running the FX850SS since early last year. Making the puck smaller so it is the size of the floating disk is just going to reduce the overall contact of the disk but just on the flywheel side.

The twin disk is made of metal, the one he had is ceramic...Why is material on the fw just where the holes are??
I didn't say make the puck smaller, widen the surface are on the ring so that it contacts the whole pad

And sorry but a clutch is not the same as a brake, totally different duty, i this case a clutch sees a lot more stress than a brake...And there all kinds of problems with the cross drilled disks like cracks and abnormal and accelerated pad wear..there is a lot of controversy in that matter but to date I have never sen a cross drilled clutch

[viceprp]

Here was the launch [=(][=(][:(]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MENrzmz21Z8

You put all that money in your car and its a shame man.. my chipped b5 is faster than that.. k03 > 5857 ;-)

[boy412]

so now that southbend and clutchmasters have reported multiple failures have we come full circle again to spec?

nooooooooooooooooo....

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I haven't had a problem and peple have been running the FX850SS since early last year. Making the puck smaller so it is the size of the floating disk is just going to reduce the overall contact of the disk but just on the flywheel side.

I have a problem with this, are you starting to lie now? You have had people running it since early last year but back when Dan bought this clutch he was the first to have it and I was the 2nd but I put mine in before him making me the first to run it which was the night of July 31st. You said there were only 2 or 3 made at the time and then Sam ended up buying the 3rd. And you say you "haven't had a problem" but who is to say that these people have launched their car if they even existed? And the only 3 I am aware of all have had a problem. But they all did something wrong too according to you or CM. Interesting.

Also what I am getting at here is you told me about how you have sold clutches to people here and there, overseas, to Greece, blah blah, and none of them have a problem, which makes it even funnier because your buddy from Greece pmed me and he doesn't even have his clutch he bought from you in the car yet [:p] So I guess lots of people can't have problems when they arent even being used must less being launched, and with 400+whp on top!! [headbang]

Then the last thing, I am still trying to figure out why you are so defensive about this like you made the clutch. The only thing I can think is it makes Clutch Masters look bad and they are a honey pot of yours ever since I started running the FX400, yes me, the one who always promoted for you and got you tons of business after you were terminated from here.

[M-Hood]

Doctor(Mike) isn't exactly the only person I know in Greece :P

Dan was the first to buy it. I might have been thinking of the 240mm kit which was first made in early 2010. lol

But the fact is other people have the FX850SS on their cars including myself. I didn't know I had to send you a memo everytime someone got a clutch.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Mike, so what kind of luck have you had with the Bronze ceramic? It looks exactly like my SPEC stage 3+ and I've always wondered what material they used. It was weird stuff, while the clutch was new, I remember if I ran the tip of my fingernail against the 'grain' of the material it would shave my fingernail.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Of course he isn't, you always have a backup plan, you are well known to make things fit for your gain or to make you look right. And don't even compare your car, it weights 700lbs less and doesn't even have the same disk. That is apples to oranges.

[outsider6661]

just finished reading all the post and I must say I'm vary impressed with the customer service that Mr. Hood is providing!!! It's vary rare that retailers/manufactures stand by the product that they are selling let alone after-market performance products. I have been running the 850ss since early March 2010 with out a issue 10k+ now. btw WELCOME BACK Mr. Hood

[7speed]

just finished reading all the post and I must say I'm vary impressed with the customer service that Mr. Hood is providing!!! It's vary rare that retailers/manufactures stand by the product that they are selling let alone after-market performance products. I have been running the 850ss since early March 2010 with out a issue 10k+ now. btw WELCOME BACK Mr. Hood

Have you launched your car yet ?

[M-Hood]

Mike, so what kind of luck have you had with the Bronze ceramic? It looks exactly like my SPEC stage 3+ and I've always wondered what material they used. It was weird stuff, while the clutch was new, I remember if I ran the tip of my fingernail against the 'grain' of the material it would shave my fingernail.

It works very well on the twin disk setups.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

just finished reading all the post and I must say I'm vary impressed with the customer service that Mr. Hood is providing!!! It's vary rare that retailers/manufactures stand by the product that they are selling let alone after-market performance products. I have been running the 850ss since early March 2010 with out a issue 10k+ now. btw WELCOME BACK Mr. Hood

I am not sure if you are trying to defend, have your dates severely screwed up or both, but the clutch didn't even exist in March, and it was confirmed by Mike himself that Dan bought the first one and I bought the 2nd one right after Dan, and installed mine first which was July 31st. Mike even wanted to hear what I had to say about it after I drove it wrote in facebook messages since nobody had used the clutch yet.


When Dan bought this clutch he was the first to have it and I was the 2nd but I put mine in before him making me the first to run it which was the night of July 31st. You said there were only 2 or 3 made at the time and then Sam ended up buying the 3rd.




Dan was the first to buy it.

And this thread isn't about Mike and any lack of customer service. Everyone has always been happy with dealing with him. This thread is about Clutch Masters and a faulty clutch.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

It works very well on the twin disk setups.

I imagine that it would, now if you could clarify for me, is David running a twin disk setup or not? (I'm not really familiar w CM nomenclature) If he is, is he going to that material or is it the same 6 puck setup?

Finally, any reason that they use Bronze in that compound? As I've always understood it, Bronze has a fairly low coefficient of friction, which obviously works against what a clutch is supposed to do. Do they use it to smooth out the clutch engagement?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I have one disk. NOT a twin disk. FX850SS, the SS stands for SUPER SINGLE. It used the same style pressure plate with some changes as the FX850 twin disk.

This is what the FX850SS is.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0168.jpg


This is the 850 twin disk.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/cm-evo4-9_10-5mt.jpg

[EBG 18T]

Wow.. looks like things got a little side tracked.

On a side note-Mike thanks for the help with getting me upgraded to the FX400.

[outsider6661]

my bad I didn't mention that I have the twin disc set up and as for me defending Mr. Hood no Im not. Im just pointing out that he is actually standing by his product and you are being helped out in my experiences with performance product warranties I've been screwed plenty (I wont mention names to be respectful) Myself I would be more then happy if I was being helped as you are but then again thats just me.... Best of luck to you Sir

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Ahh, gotcha David, the pressure plate part had me confused. BTW, have you considered using the bronze ceramic on your new disk? Or is it only usable at your power levels if you have the combined disks on the twin setup?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

The inner holes are tapered when used as a FX850. They should not have a edge that would catch the disk material.

None of the FX850 twin disk users have had an issue. They do this for many of their twin disk applications.

I just noticed that FX850 twin disk flywheel doesn't have the extra holes in it like mine does that I thought the FX850 twin disk has? Interesting stuff.

[AudiA4_20T]

my bad I didn't mention that I have the twin disc set up and as for me defending Mr. Hood no Im not. Im just pointing out that he is actually standing by his product and you are being helped out in my experiences with performance product warranties I've been screwed plenty (I wont mention names to be respectful) Myself I would be more then happy if I was being helped as you are but then again thats just me.... Best of luck to you Sir

The real point is why would he sell a clutch to just about everyone on AZ knowing if they launched it, the thing would fuse?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Then I guess holes in a drilled brake rotor shouldn't be ther either. lol

The inner holes are tapered when used as a FX850. They should not have a edge that would catch the disk material. Still the fact is that his disk welded on both sides of the disk, not just on the flywheel side.

None of the FX850 twin disk users have had an issue. They do this for many of their twin disk applications.

I am being sent that bronze disk. I am quite confused why they didn't use that thing in the first place if it fits properly as opposed to the ceramic disk which does not?


Ahh, gotcha David, the pressure plate part had me confused. BTW, have you considered using the bronze ceramic on your new disk? Or is it only usable at your power levels if you have the combined disks on the twin setup?

[M-Hood]

Sorry to break it to you David but Sam was not the 3rd person to get the FX850SS.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Here is a picture of the FX725, still no inner holes. What is going on here, do they just do a little bit of that and a little bit of this? Or did I get the only flywheel like that? Does anyone else have a flywheel with the inner holes?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/volume631/SDC10215.jpg

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Sorry to break it to you David but Sam was not the 3rd person to get the FX850SS.

That is irrelevant and not even important.

[7speed]

He didn't know then but he knows that they will fuse now. We just need to see how he addresses the issue with future clutch sales.

[M-Hood]

I just noticed that FX850 twin disk flywheel doesn't have the extra holes in it like mine does that I thought the FX850 twin disk has? Interesting stuff.

What are you talking about Willis?

Let me guess you used your super hero powers to fly to CM in Socal to look at the flywheels they have sitting in their warehouse and then flew back to FL to post?

They use the same flywheel for both type of twin disk setups, which is the same flywheel used for the FX850SS. If had that flywheel without the inner group of bolt holes I would have had them use it for the FX850SS.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Are you not seeing any of the pics I am posting? [confused] I just posted a 725 and 850 above didn't I? Both with no holes???? [confused] You don't need super powers when you have google [:p]

[M-Hood]

That is irrelevant and not even important.

Seems to be important to you since you are the one trying to keep count. Kind of like how you acted like you, Dan and Sam were the only ones in the world that had bought the FX850SS.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I spoke of 3 I knew of which all 3 had a problem. I can't imagine there are that many of these out there. But this is where you tell me you have sold 50 of them right? And you told me Dan and I were the first 2, so I know for sure about that. But like I said, it doesn't even matter who was 1st, 2nd or 5th.

[M-Hood]

Are you not seeing any of the pics I am posting? [confused] I just posted a 725 and 850 above didn't I? Both with no holes???? [confused] You don't need super powers when you have google [:p]

It also isn't hard to figure out that CM doesn't offer a 850 for all cars even for ones that they offer a 725 for. If they offer a 7.25 and 8.5" TD setup they just use the same flywheel. This is the case for the A4.

[7speed]

Okay guys, this thread is becoming redundant. Let's move on change the subject or something. We are getting no where

- We have determined that the 3 B6 purchasers of the FX850SS have had fusing issues all with varied levels of use on the clutch.
- We have determined that the clutch disc may not be properly matched to the setup
- We have determined that Mike Hood will provide great customer service for the product that he sells
- We have determined that he will stand behind said product even when it is proven to fail
- We have determined that he has taken the steps to rectify the situation by supplying David with a replacement clutch at a fraction of the cost.
- All that we have to determine now is how he will effect the future sales of said clutch combo

end thread

[A4 TSCHUSS]

That fx725 pic is from Vortex and a 1.8t which someone bought from CTS Turbo [o_o]

So what is the next back up story? The flywheels they sell you are different from CTS turbo haha. Hey at least you will be at 3 rings in no time!!! I am just trying to figure out this flywheel phenomenon (did I spell that right?)

[M-Hood]

I spoke of 3 I knew of which all 3 had a problem. I can't imagine there are that many of these out there. But this is where you tell me you have sold 50 of them right? And you told me Dan and I were the first 2, so I know for sure about that. But like I said, it doesn't even matter who was 1st, 2nd or 5th.

Odd because Dan has told me many times he doesnt have any complaints about his FX850. No not anywhere near 50 for the SS, but it isn't anywhere near 3 either.

I have had both a FX850 Twin disk and a FX850SS on my car. Both flywheels had both sets of bolt holes and no both of them weren't using the same flywheel. Greg has my complete FX850 TD setup including the flywheel in his B6. I didnt' have CM build my SS till well after Greg was already using the TD.

[drjonez]

Here is a picture of the FX725, still no inner holes. What is going on here, do they just do a little bit of that and a little bit of this? Or did I get the only flywheel like that? Does anyone else have a flywheel with the inner holes?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/volume631/SDC10215.jpg

No friction surface cross-drilling on my FX700.

LLAMA LLAMA lots of drama!

[M-Hood]

That fx725 pic is from Vortex and a 1.8t [o_o]

So what is the next back up story? haha. Hey at least you will be at 3 rings in no time!!!

LOL. CM doesn't make a twin disk 850 for the FWD 5 speed 1.8t.

They do offer one for the 6 speed, but that is a picture of a 5 speed FX700. Nice try though.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Odd because Dan has told me many times he doesnt have any complaints about his FX850.

I give you exibit (A), a convo between Dan and I
I mentioned yours screwed up too and he said "oh, Dan never said anything to me about it."

Followed by the response
Yeah, I still hadn't said anything to him,


No friction surface cross-drilling on my FX700.

LLAMA LLAMA lots of drama!

Oh boy, an A4 owner without the holes? Or is this guy screwing around because his sig says tip [confused]


LOL. CM doesn't make a twin disk 850 for the FWD 5 speed 1.8t.

They do offer one for the 6 speed, but that is a picture of a 5 speed FX700.

Have you gone looney? It says 725 right on it, why are you saying 700?

[M-Hood]

I
Have you gone looney? It says 725 right on it, why are you saying 700?

Look harder. It says 725 Series. That means it is their 7.25" cover which is used for the FX600 and FX700 twin disk clutch kits. I said FX700 because it has 2 bronze disks, the FX600 uses 1 bronze disk and 1 kevlar disk.
You do understand I deal with this stuff pretty much every single day right?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Yes.

[M-Hood]

Ok just checking. lol

[AudiHere04]

My only complaint about my twin disc 850 is that i the shifter gets stuck...but i think its an installation error. Soon as the weather break i will drop the tranny...re-install and let you all know how it holds up on a FWD...maybe these clutches just don't like quattro...[:/][:D]

[A4 TSCHUSS]

You will just spin your tires with any kind of power, both a blessing in this case and crappy when you aren't going anywhere and that quattro is straight getting it!

[drjonez]

You will just spin your tires with any kind of power, both a blessing in this case and crappy when you aren't going anywhere and that quattro is straight getting it!

Perhaps, but if he put that serious of a clutch in the car I would assume he has something more than a K03....and probably the suspension + tires to go with it.

[20vturbo]

warning!!! excessive use of "lol" detected

[A4 TSCHUSS]

He has a 6262, he will spin like crazy still unless he is at higher speeds. This is all IF he gets the tuning right and makes good power like the turbo is capable of.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

You will just spin your tires with any kind of power, both a blessing in this case and crappy when you aren't going anywhere and that quattro is straight getting it!

Yeah, it saves on my clutch and axles. However it sucks monkey balls in the winter when the tires let loose in 3rd @60 MPH. It's disconcerting to say the least. I'm hoping the spool on the journal bearing 60-1 is going to work in my favor on this one (in the summer of course). If not, it's LSD time, i'm still looking for a Torsen 1 type Audi V8 rear diff if anyone knows of one that isn't outrageously priced.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I give you exibit (A), a convo between Dan and I

Followed by the response

is that really all I said? I honestly can't remember and I had to delete all my PMs a couple days ago. either way, I'm sorry if you thought I meant it differently than what I did, but you're quoting me out of context. I didn't mean to tell him, like to complain to him about it. I guess I'll think more carefully how I word things from now on.


in case this isn't clear, when my clutch fused the following events took place:
-I pulled out onto a long straight road that is hardly traveled and came to a complete stop.
-I disengaged the clutch.
-I pushed the accelerator pedal into the WOT position.
-at 6k rpms launch control made anywhere from 14 to 16 pounds of boost.
-I then very quickly lifted my foot off the clutch, engaging it ferociously.
-I was rocked violently back into my seat, then I almost hit my face off the steering wheel as the traction control decided to mediate and kill power.
-[facepalm]
-I then pushed the clutch in, disengaging it, and began driving the car around with the clutch disengaged and after about 3 mins it broke itself free.



****I never once had a issue with the clutch welding the other dozen or more times that I launched car, and I believe the only reason it happened this time was because I forgot to turn the traction control off.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So when are you going to change your name to Dan[FN]6262? Dan[FN]5857 is false advertising. [:p]

[nunya]

My experiences with South Bend's customer service has been excellent as well... I had my first southbend clutch on my A4 come a part. The friction surface separated from the disk. They sent me a whole new clutch kit, no issues.

I ran that setup (Stage 4 at the time) on my 2871r elim, 35r setup w/ tons of launches and ran a 12.1 and many launches after that. It never failed again... In fact, it out lasted 1 tranny and 2 motors lolz.

So I put another South bend in my S4, 6 puck disk this time... Good customer services goes a long way.

Agreed.

I am going on my third motor and 4th turbo with my South Bend OFE SS stage 4. It has almost 50k on it.

--dillon

[jmw241]

Which issues would that be? Might want to read the thread first. lol

Huh? I read the first post. That's all I need to know. I have 14k on a clutch that was designed for a lot of power and hard driving. It has only lasted 14k and will fail by 20K I bet. Clutch Masters needs to step up, David looks like he is launching the car properly, and he is not the only one having issues.

[Dan[FN]6262]

So when are you going to change your name to Dan[FN]6262? Dan[FN]5857 is false advertising. [:p]

I also need to have my thingymajigg changed to "Senior Member" from "Active Member" or something like that... hmmmmmmm

[dougyfresh]

Huh? I read the first post. That's all I need to know. I have 14k on a clutch that was designed for a lot of power and hard driving. It has only lasted 14k and will fail by 20K I bet. Clutch Masters needs to step up, David looks like he is launching the car properly, and he is not the only one having issues.

Your clutch should last longer than 14k. My Southbend clutch is at 50k and feels 'grabbier' than ever lately. Day to Day driving habits play an important role in the life of a clutch. Its not just about the 'launch'.

[M-Hood]

Huh? I read the first post. That's all I need to know. I have 14k on a clutch that was designed for a lot of power and hard driving. It has only lasted 14k and will fail by 20K I bet. Clutch Masters needs to step up, David looks like he is launching the car properly, and he is not the only one having issues.

But yet other people have had their CM kits last much longer then 20k. Fred2kA4 has had his FX300 on his car for nearly 5 years. How long the clutch last depends on how it is used and how quickly the material wears. Once it wears so much the clamping load on the disk gets lower and at a point the PP cant put enough on the disk causing it to slip under load. It isn't like the lowest point of the PP is going to end up at hub surface under the disk material. It just doesn't have that much travel. Try to set the pressure plate with too much pre-load and you end up with disengagment issues, which has been seen with other cltuch kits where the clutch wouldn't even disengage at the floor and the customer ends up having to modify the slave rod. This happens becaues the pre-load added decreases the amount of travel for the PP to release the disk with the fingers fully pressed down, so the disk ends up draging on the flywheel/PP surface. Making the slave rod longer can actually keep the fingers from coming all the way back up and also cause the fingers to bottom out on the disk which can cause them to hit the springs on the hub. The pivot point can also be changed but it changes how the PP releases the disk, the amount of load on the disk and the stiffness of the pedal. That is one of the special modifications SB did for Eurocode and the setup they do for me.

[EErie B6]

So when are you going to change your name to Dan[FN]6262? Dan[FN]5857 is false advertising. [:p]

if hes going to sandbag, i think he should change it to "Dan[FN]K04" [up]

[ZimbutheMonkey]

. Day to Day driving habits play an important role in the life of a clutch. Its not just about the 'launch'.

What he said

[a4darkness]

if hes going to sandbag, i think he should change it to "Dan[FN]K04" [up]

hahahahah, THIS

[Dan[FN]6262]

if hes going to sandbag, i think he should change it to "Dan[FN]K04" [up]

no one likes you, John. [>_>]

[Wet0willy01]

5857;6176961']I also need to have my thingymajigg changed to "Senior Member" from "Active Member" or something like that... hmmmmmmm

x2

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Got my clutch back today with the bronze disk this time. Also noticed that the floating ring is different and has these little weld spots all over it, not sure what that is all about?

Guess I will put it in tomorrow after work and be able to drive my car again, this stock b5 s4 I am driving is slizzo.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/fx850bronzedisk1.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/fx850bronzedisk3.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/fx850bronzedisk4.jpg


This is what the ring looked like before. [confused] It was like one piece and now appears to be 2 seperate pieces with those little weld spots holding it together.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Urbamworm/IMG_0170.jpg

[EErie B6]

hopefully this one can hold the powaa. and stands up to its expected rep.

this means you have to go slow for a while?

[Dan[FN]6262]

interesting. I like the bronze disk better than the ceramic.

[EErie B6]

5857;6183646']interesting. I like the bronze disk better than the ceramic.

it will be interesting to see the results... and hear a comparison of 1 vs the other street manners.

[20vturbo]

I dunno but it looks like it is machined down or is made out of 2 parts which i doubt and used the welds to reinforce it...Maybe Mike Hood can tell better...You should balance it before install

[ZimbutheMonkey]

5857;6183646']interesting. I like the bronze disk better than the ceramic.

If it's anything like the material SPEC uses it should engage really nice. I really want to see what David thinks.

[AudiHere04]

You should ask CM documented questions if what you received is different from what you sent before installing. Find out what is different this time around. At least you can have your side covered if anything else goes wrong.

[M-Hood]

They weld a 2nd ring on top to increase the stack height. They did the exact same thing with mine with the sintered iron disk.
This might have been done to increase the clamping load by adding some preload on the disk or just to make up for the difference in the height of the disk.

It was bench tested to make sure it releases correctly just like every single clutch that CM builds.


Glad to see the clutch made it there in good time.

[viceprp]

Glad to see the clutch made it there in good time.

Looking forward to the install and for A4 TSCHUSS to finally stop crying.. Hopefully it will be a 7 page thread on how great the clutch works.

[Bische]

damn what a disaster, i read the thread in two sittings haha. Brainfiltered all the crap out and sucked up on all the good info, materials, singles, twins, load and what i find most interesting is the theory of the high RPMs.
Never thought of that before, but its quite logic that a higher launch rpm will demand much more of a clutch. Its good to have in mind when planning a build, good thing ima step up in displacement rather than RPMs [:p]

[jmw241]

damn what a disaster, i read the thread in two sittings haha. Brainfiltered all the crap out and sucked up on all the good info, materials, singles, twins, load and what i find most interesting is the theory of the high RPMs.
Never thought of that before, but its quite logic that a higher launch rpm will demand much more of a clutch. Its good to have in mind when planning a build, good thing ima step up in displacement rather than RPMs [:p]

If you drop the clutch at high RPM's and your wheels dont spin, then that will do a number on your clutch. If you drop it and the wheels spin, then your all set. But either way, high RPM dumps from a standstill, even with wheels spin, will kill your clutch over time.

[Bische]

If you drop the clutch at high RPM's and your wheels dont spin, then that will do a number on your clutch. If you drop it and the wheels spin, then your all set. But either way, high RPM dumps from a standstill, even with wheels spin, will kill your clutch over time.

Yes, as i said, logic [:)]

What i meant was, when your shopping for a clutch, at least i dont factor in at what rpms i will launch it. More at what torque it can hold. But with this info i will give it some thought.

[M-Hood]

If you drop the clutch at high RPM's and your wheels dont spin, then that will do a number on your clutch. If you drop it and the wheels spin, then your all set. But either way, high RPM dumps from a standstill, even with wheels spin, will kill your clutch over time.

Always a good idea to increase the tire pressure when launching the car at the track. Need to reduce traction of the tires because the track preps the track surface to increase traction. Basically the track surface becomes like glue to your tires. All that added rolling resistance during a launch puts way more stress on the clutch. This is why people find it very easy to launch the car on the street, but then struggle to get the launch right when at the track. Best to start with the tire pressure high and then work down if the tires spin too much.

[viceprp]

Always a good idea to increase the tire pressure when launching the car at the track. Need to reduce traction of the tires because the track preps the track surface to increase traction. Basically the track surface becomes like glue to your tires. All that added rolling resistance during a launch puts way more stress on the clutch. This is why people find it very easy to launch the car on the street, but then struggle to get the launch right when at the track. Best to start with the tire pressure high and then work down if the tires spin too much.

Quality information.

[itsmatt33]

guess who fused their second clutchmaster fx400 on a GTRS kit?

this guy. SMH going to call them monday. the shop i take my car too said this is like third 4th car this month. this is just plain ridiculous.