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geeky
12-25-2010, 12:07 AM
Hey Guys,

So it's been a while since I've really posted on the forums but after selling my A4 (family reasons, that most of you probably know) I picked up a Suzuki GS500e for 1200 (with single seat conversion) for about a month then sold for a 1987 BMW 325is (e30). The e30 ended up being traded within a month for my current vehicle, a CBR 600 F3 w/ F4i plastics (currently being converted).

I'm currently back home and my parents have informed me that they will be purchasing me another car this summer since I sold mine to help the family, and we're financially in a better spot now that my parents want to return the huge favor I did for them. So I need your opinions.

I will be re-joining the Audi family within a couple months and am set on a B5 A4 Avant but the thing I'm truly curious about is what motor to get. I loved the 1.8T with the K04 PC-16 setup I had, but I'm also being pulled to the simplicity of the 2.8 PES Supercharged suddenly. I have been looking at scaudi.com and have noticed that the majority of dyno runs pull in a mid 200awhp and upper 200awhp with a meth kit.

Now the 1.8T will most likely end up either a kit BAT like the PES T28 (chris'), APR Stage 3 kit, or the frankenturbo setup and whatever software necessary and that will be the extent as I want to by realistic with my goals this time around and am more than content with mid to upper 200awhp on an awd system.

What is your opinion on which car and why? And if you own or have driven a PES S/C'd 2.8 please chime in. If I can I'm going to try and run a PES G1 kit with a FMIC and meth. And remember, there is no replacement for displacement.

2001A6
12-25-2010, 12:42 AM
Already owning a 2.8, the end goal is a PES blower. I like the bolt on kit, enjoy a 300CHP car, and its done.


Of course I could swap to a 2.7t, but then its an endless downward spiral IMHO. You keep wanting more, just like the 1.8, the posibilities are endless. With the G1/G2, you cant go anywhere else. Some people cant stand that, I however dont need a stupid fast car, 2 wheels take care of that.

I've been in one G2 car, a Passat. It was nice, strong mid range, smooth power delivery, awesome roots blower sound track. I would recommend it.

geeky
12-25-2010, 01:34 AM
I definitely understand what you're saying about the 2 wheels. love my cbr.

and as for the 2.8 hows maintenance? was looking at the timing belt etc and all of that looks like a breeze. just worried about finding a PES kit for a relatively cheap price and having a linear power band sounds quite nice. Living in Boulder/Denver and driving to the mountain a lot, I need an awd car with a large amount of displacement and boost to help me get up those damn slopes. The 1.8TQM with the K04 felt quite sluggish on the mountain given we were nearly 1.5miles above sea level.

quality_sound
12-25-2010, 02:07 AM
Having owned a 2.8 I wouldn't do it again. A PITA to work on and it doesn't make nearly enough power for the motor size.

Sigma 3
12-25-2010, 03:41 AM
I did the timing belt and sc install with a friend. IMHO most reliable engine audi has to offer. With the sc the engine feels perfect, but do a clutch if you go this route. However I have been bitten by the boost bug. I am selling my engine with super charger installed. I have one guy interested and should know if he is going to pull the trigger soon. If he doesnt I will post it for sale on here.

2001A6
12-25-2010, 07:39 AM
maintenance is about the same as a 1.8, just a little harder to work on. Same timing belt intervals, cam chain tensioner seals/vc gaskets will leak.

There is less room with the V6, but pretty much all of these cars suck to work on, so the v6 sucks a tad bit more than the 4.

Cant beat bikes for speed, I had an F4 6RR a few years ago, I have BMWs now, nothing like 0-60 in 3 sec while getting 50mpg. [>_<]

somebody5788
12-25-2010, 08:37 AM
I don't see why people think its harder to work on? I actually think it's easier.

I'll have my supercharger installed in the next 2 weeks. I just don't know when I can have my car out of commission for a whole week lol. I'm getting a custom tune from PES for S4 injectors, and it's also a G2 tune tweaked for the G1.

As far as not making enough power for its engine size? WTF???? Go compare it to a BMW 2.8l I6 (non M) or hell compare it to the Chevy 3.8. It makes more power then both.

As far as doing your average maintenance. The 2.8 is without a doubt easier to do oil changes on. The oil filter on the 1.8t is stupid lol. The 2.8's is in the same area as the drain is.

If I blow my engine (unlikely unless i get power hungry) with the supercharger I plan to swap a 2.7 block in with my heads and the supercharger kit and start cranking the boost up to 12 psi from 8 hehe. Close to the power of a twin turbo without having to worry about the dentist drill or turbo lady hahahah

2001A6
12-25-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't see why people think its harder to work on? I actually think it's easier.

I'll have my supercharger installed in the next 2 weeks. I just don't know when I can have my car out of commission for a whole week lol. I'm getting a custom tune from PES for S4 injectors, and it's also a G2 tune tweaked for the G1.

As far as not making enough power for its engine size? WTF???? Go compare it to a BMW 2.8l I6 (non M) or hell compare it to the Chevy 3.8. It makes more power then both.

As far as doing your average maintenance. The 2.8 is without a doubt easier to do oil changes on. The oil filter on the 1.8t is stupid lol. The 2.8's is in the same area as the drain is.

If I blow my engine (unlikely unless i get power hungry) with the supercharger I plan to swap a 2.7 block in with my heads and the supercharger kit and start cranking the boost up to 12 psi from 8 hehe. Close to the power of a twin turbo without having to worry about the dentist drill or turbo lady hahahah

Thats what Ive been saying for a while. 2.7 bottom end, 12 psi all day everyday.

I was referring to the TB service, and VC gaskets, 02 sensors.. oil changes on a 2.8 are about as easy as it can get lol.

biketsai
12-25-2010, 03:12 PM
Glad to hear that you are going to be back soon! Seemed like the time passed by pretty quick. I think one major fact is just how much power you want to make. You can make 300chp on both motors but the question is, are you going to want more? I enjoy the simplicity and spacious 1.8 motor bay which is a big plus. I feel like there is a lot more support or the 1.8t as far as going fast and adding HP. What happens if you go with a SC on the 2.8 and one of the parts on the kits break? I doubt it will be easy finding a replacement. With an elim setup, etc etc you can pick those parts up from many suppliers. Just my .02 and Happy Holidays!

AWDFTW
12-25-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm going to supercharge mine. You gotta pay to be different. And smooth power throughout the RPM range is what I'm looking for, I hate turbo lag.

Can anyone link me to a parts list I'll need in order to supercharge?

Thanks.

The Russian
12-25-2010, 05:12 PM
Geeky, glad to hear things are better. oh and merry christmas!

I've personally got emotional attachment to the 1.8T haha, I just bought my GF one and refused to get the 2.8 simply because I am staying loyal to the 1.8, I like it because its a better engine in my opinion with many more options.

Although the 2.8 is not for me I'm in full support of you pioneering, and being one of the first to try something new... the only problem with that is that there won't really be much help out there for you and you need to be ready for the car to be down some of the time for simple slight improvements...

geeky
12-25-2010, 05:56 PM
VAL! how've you been? I don't see your beast of an audi or even hear it in Boulder lately.

And my familys doing great now, dad's private practice has been picking up, mom is planning on opening a new montessori school come the new year which is why my parents informed me that they'll atleast have the credit now to get me a car and they want to. Plus I love those b5 Audi's yum yum yum.

You make a valid point about being one of the few people out there, that actually terrifies me LOL (theres a volcanic black B5 A4 avant in Boulder w/ a G2 supercharger) so i wouldnt be a true pioneer in that area :p

The 1.8T was a great platform but finding a 1999.5 with somewhat low miles is going to be a PITA and then owning a 2001 I'd be afraid of snapping a rod. But I want to be completely realistic with this upcoming car as I truly plan on clutch, BT premade kit, coilovers, and some aesthics and just driving. This car also has to last me throughout grad/med school.

And you own a 748?! I hate you :( going to start tearing apart the CBR once I get back into town in 2 weeks, doing the F4i front end and a R1 tail >:)

somebody5788
12-25-2010, 06:55 PM
Timing belt on a 2.8 is almost the same as a 1.8, i mean it's slightly more time consuming but it's very easy anyways. I actually find my valve covers easier.... the dang 1.8's on some are covered with those damn lines and make it harder to wiggle it out

flynnr
12-25-2010, 08:21 PM
pm'd

bmarshall
12-25-2010, 11:45 PM
Geeky, What happened to the Frankenturbo K03-073? What were your thoughts?
I think for a road only car the 2.8L SC would be much better hands down. Instant torque. Yeh.

geeky
12-26-2010, 01:12 AM
I loved the frankenturbo K03-073. I remember getting a dyno result of 192 ish on a mustang dyno running the PC-16 setup at sea level. Pulled great and spooled very quickly, I'm somewhat curious in the FrankenTurbo setup now as I didn't have a true frankenturbo. From what I've searched so far with slappy, it seems his turbo has the same characteristics and flow as a gt2x which nets a reliable 220awhp usually with the B5 platform, so I personally wouldnt mind a Frankenturbo on water meth as I recall seeing a dyno chart with 240awhp on that setup, which is perfectly reasonable for me.

Im really look for a decently powered audi to daily drive and have spirited drives on in the back roads and the free way. Which is the main reason why I am having this debate about a 2.8 or 1.8

somebody5788
12-26-2010, 08:08 AM
I will say the 2.8 makes an awesome daily. In traffic it's amazing as just a minor slip of the clutch crawls you forward when traffic is barely moving. I have driven 1.8's and personally I wouldn't be able to change into to one. It just doesn't have enough displacement for me. I all you want is 250 awhp then get a g2 and meth injection. I'm confident that a 1.8t at 250awhp vs a g2 on meth that the g2 would be faster accelerating due to the torque. Keep in mind that if one can find a g1 they do have almost 50 ft lbs more torque then the g2. Also the g1 can have an FMIC on it.

As a daily I don't think you would regret a 2.8 SC'd unless you want gas mileage and we're a decent group of guys on scaudi hahaha.

stevejones19
12-26-2010, 09:55 AM
As a daily I don't think you would regret a 2.8 SC'd unless you want gas mileage and we're a decent group of guys on scaudi hahaha.

This is something i've always thought about with the SC. Since it's belt driven its constantly ready to go, but on that same hand, constantly working. With a turbo, its a little bit easier to stay out of boost when you don't want it.

somebody5788
12-26-2010, 10:03 AM
This is something i've always thought about with the SC. Since it's belt driven its constantly ready to go, but on that same hand, constantly working. With a turbo, its a little bit easier to stay out of boost when you don't want it.

The supercharger is responsive but it also isnt like its boosting all the time. Your throttle position controls boost levels quite easily

Jurjen
12-27-2010, 12:11 AM
I'm going to supercharge mine. You gotta pay to be different. And smooth power throughout the RPM range is what I'm looking for, I hate turbo lag.

Can anyone link me to a parts list I'll need in order to supercharge?

Thanks.

Drive a stage2+ or k04'd S4 - there is ZERO noticeable turbo lag. I have Gt2554's and even then, the turbo lag is absolutely acceptable.


I can't comment on the price of superchargers as IDK, all I know is I've raced a few 2.8 s/c, and a 24v vr6 s/c, and my stage2+ S4 (at the time) would more than mop the floor with them.

2.7t longblocks are pretty easy to find these days. Just find out what a swap will cost, and compared it with the cost of supercharging. Maybe even trade up the A4 for a S4?

Mr.Eyebrows
12-27-2010, 01:10 PM
Hola, new to Audizine and I have a 01 B5 2.8 with the PES kit on it, I bought it this way, so as far as other mods go, to my knowledge its stock, anyway. If your looking for mod-ability I would try to trade up to an s4 or a 2.7t swap, or the 1.8t, but the pioneering is fun with the s/c kit, so far from what I have found, after the initial dyno around 295bhp there is very little one can do to really boost the motor more without swaping some of the internals and pumping the boost, but it is a very smooth ride and sounds pretty good, IMO, but i digress, go for it man if you really want to, I LOVE my car and its super little motor.

somebody5788
12-27-2010, 01:24 PM
Drive a stage2+ or k04'd S4 - there is ZERO noticeable turbo lag. I have Gt2554's and even then, the turbo lag is absolutely acceptable.


I can't comment on the price of superchargers as IDK, all I know is I've raced a few 2.8 s/c, and a 24v vr6 s/c, and my stage2+ S4 (at the time) would more than mop the floor with them.

2.7t longblocks are pretty easy to find these days. Just find out what a swap will cost, and compared it with the cost of supercharging. Maybe even trade up the A4 for a S4?

I doubt you've raced more then 1... SC'd A4's are pretty rare, they also are slower then chipped S4's.. so what? A full engine swap is way more extensive then simply bolting on a supercharger. It takes much much longer and is more expensive. Trading up is great and all but the cost of maintenance on a B5 S4... I'll pass.

rolsmi1
12-27-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm selling my 99.5 A4 PES-G2, only 68k mi, meth injection, Eibach susp, lots more. If interested, let me know. Full description and photos on AutoTrader.

Jurjen
12-28-2010, 12:36 PM
I doubt you've raced more then 1... SC'd A4's are pretty rare, they also are slower then chipped S4's.. so what? A full engine swap is way more extensive then simply bolting on a supercharger. It takes much much longer and is more expensive. Trading up is great and all but the cost of maintenance on a B5 S4... I'll pass.


I know they're area, about there two in my town, and another one I know of in Toronto, an hour away. Also, a 24v vr6 gti that has a VF blower on it. Not one car was quicker than a chipped S4.

And so what? performance per dollar, that is what we're all about, right? 5000-6000 dollars on a supercharger kit, if you go new, vs $500 on a chipped S4.

In 5 years, I've spent maybe 3k - which I find totally acceptable. (in 5 years, replaced 2 rear wheel bearings, after-run coolant pump, front axles (just the ends), and maybe an o2 sensor) The 2001.5 and up S4's are really pretty solid cars if properly maintained. Unreliability issues are grossly exaggerated. (that has been my experience atleast)

Anyways, end of the day, OP, if you want to go S/C'd , and you're not after big power, and can find a decently priced kit, go for it. Otherwise, Look towards the 2.7t.

Coopa
12-29-2010, 09:46 PM
Geek it's good to hear things are going better for ya.

My a4 turned into a mess and I had to part with it. I'm hell bent on finding a 5spd b5 avant now.. Sucks that I can't find a salvage titled one or something like that. What do you daily drive around boulder? If you see a blue mk2 jetta rubbing everywhere that's probably me [drive]


As far as sc 2.8 vs. 1.8bt goes, I'd say go with the 2.8. It'd take alot of money to make a b5 faster than a cbr anyways.

geeky
01-01-2011, 09:59 AM
How you been coopa? Theres a B5 A4 Avant 2.8QM in Cactus green in the springs for 3.3k if you're looking for a 2.8. thats the one I was trying to get but the trade didnt work out for me. I actually daily the CBR right now LOL it was great weather until I came back to seattle for break and then I heard it dumped everywhere. Hoping it clears up by the time I get back next week on Saturday so I can continue to ride lol

somebody5788
01-01-2011, 10:22 AM
I know they're area, about there two in my town, and another one I know of in Toronto, an hour away. Also, a 24v vr6 gti that has a VF blower on it. Not one car was quicker than a chipped S4.

And so what? performance per dollar, that is what we're all about, right? 5000-6000 dollars on a supercharger kit, if you go new, vs $500 on a chipped S4.

In 5 years, I've spent maybe 3k - which I find totally acceptable. (in 5 years, replaced 2 rear wheel bearings, after-run coolant pump, front axles (just the ends), and maybe an o2 sensor) The 2001.5 and up S4's are really pretty solid cars if properly maintained. Unreliability issues are grossly exaggerated. (that has been my experience atleast)

Anyways, end of the day, OP, if you want to go S/C'd , and you're not after big power, and can find a decently priced kit, go for it. Otherwise, Look towards the 2.7t.

The supercharger is $3500 new.

The reliability is from my experience. My friend dumps 2k a year into his 01.5 and his 02 isn't looking any better.

2001A6
01-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Geek it's good to hear things are going better for ya.

My a4 turned into a mess and I had to part with it. I'm hell bent on finding a 5spd b5 avant now.. Sucks that I can't find a salvage titled one or something like that. What do you daily drive around boulder? If you see a blue mk2 jetta rubbing everywhere that's probably me [drive]


As far as sc 2.8 vs. 1.8bt goes, I'd say go with the 2.8. It'd take alot of money to make a b5 faster than a cbr anyways.

Quote of the day. Or two days ago lol.

Coopa
01-04-2011, 05:19 PM
How you been coopa? Theres a B5 A4 Avant 2.8QM in Cactus green in the springs for 3.3k if you're looking for a 2.8. thats the one I was trying to get but the trade didnt work out for me. I actually daily the CBR right now LOL it was great weather until I came back to seattle for break and then I heard it dumped everywhere. Hoping it clears up by the time I get back next week on Saturday so I can continue to ride lol

Doing alright man haha. You do know there's an inch or two of snow on the ground right? Hahah. I've been drolling over that cactus avant. Even has a full terracotta interior, i could deal with the 2.8 with that. Doubt they want my jetta however.

somebody5788
01-04-2011, 07:54 PM
Doing alright man haha. You do know there's an inch or two of snow on the ground right? Hahah. I've been drolling over that cactus avant. Even has a full terracotta interior, i could deal with the 2.8 with that. Doubt they want my jetta however.

I would murder to have that avant now that i hear about it lmao. Well if it's facelift.

flynnr
01-04-2011, 08:06 PM
love avants! get it!

Ldiaz12
01-04-2011, 08:13 PM
let me say that the 2.8 is easy to work on, have done timing belt, Machined throttle body, Gaskets etc. If its reliability youre looking for 2.8 is all you, this car has never left me stranded. Did I say im at 161,000 miles..about?

Coopa
01-04-2011, 08:57 PM
I would murder to have that avant now that i hear about it lmao. Well if it's facelift.

Sorry! I messed up. I accidentally combined this http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2074841397.html with http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2128722046.html


I want both^ Look what you guys have done..now i'm screaming at the mk2 in my driveway and searching craigslist left and right for another b5 fml.

Sales@RAI
01-04-2011, 09:12 PM
1. 2.7 Block on a 2.8 with a S/C would be the jam
2. 4.2 V8 would be the jam

Rhynolite
01-04-2011, 09:27 PM
Hi there. Driving a 2.8 Avant with a PES G2 kit and a 9 PSI pulley on it as my daily right now.. works wonderfully, power isn't all that great but the car is still pretty quick and definitely fun [:)]

Engine is great, only ever really had to do basic maintenance on it to keep her running smoothly. The only things I would change are:

Injectors: if you get the kit, they're only 270cc and don't flow all that well
Tuning: Running the 9-10 PSI that I am right now, the file senses too much boost and opens the injectors to compensate, giving me 107% IDC and AFR's of anywhere from 10-10.5 at WOT. Get custom tuning. It's expensive but worth it if you want to bump up your power a bit.

Another thing to mention is if you pull the plugs on your Variable Valve Timing, you will pick up an extra PSI of boost as a result and I believe the car will run a little better.

If you have any questions let me know, I'd be happy to give you some answers [up]

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 06:02 AM
Hi there. Driving a 2.8 Avant with a PES G2 kit and a 9 PSI pulley on it as my daily right now.. works wonderfully, power isn't all that great but the car is still pretty quick and definitely fun [:)]

Engine is great, only ever really had to do basic maintenance on it to keep her running smoothly. The only things I would change are:

Injectors: if you get the kit, they're only 270cc and don't flow all that well
Tuning: Running the 9-10 PSI that I am right now, the file senses too much boost and opens the injectors to compensate, giving me 107% IDC and AFR's of anywhere from 10-10.5 at WOT. Get custom tuning. It's expensive but worth it if you want to bump up your power a bit.

Another thing to mention is if you pull the plugs on your Variable Valve Timing, you will pick up an extra PSI of boost as a result and I believe the car will run a little better.

If you have any questions let me know, I'd be happy to give you some answers [up]

I'm running S4 injectors and PES is writing a custom tune for me since I have a G1 which is no longer available. I'm scared to try to run 10 psi though as I haven't seen one that didn't blow up at some point.

Removing the VVT is a BAD IDEA. You will do nothing but actually lose power honestly. We have the exact same VVT system as an S4 and they don't remove them. Maybe if we were running a big turbo or 20psi+ but this setup is best with VVT I have no doubt of that.

.Mad Hatter.
01-05-2011, 06:25 AM
I'm going to supercharge mine. You gotta pay to be different. And smooth power throughout the RPM range is what I'm looking for, I hate turbo lag.

Can anyone link me to a parts list I'll need in order to supercharge?

Thanks.

I stopped reading this thread here because I need to address this; turbo lag on a 300chp capable turbo? Nope. Don't think so.

.Mad Hatter.
01-05-2011, 06:26 AM
Quote of the day. Or two days ago lol.

He said B5, not A4...stroll into the S4 builds sub-forum ;)

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 06:31 AM
I stopped reading this thread here because I need to address this; turbo lag on a 300chp capable turbo? Nope. Don't think so.

Ya stage 3's don't really lag I mean sure there is some but it's nothing anyone should ever complain about.

Then again.. it doesn't compare to a 335i chipped. You want to know no lag? THAT is no lag. Not to mention it's a 3.0 I6 making 440hp on a chip that doesn't even void your warranty (I was specifically told this by the BMW dealer)

.Mad Hatter.
01-05-2011, 06:35 AM
Ya I've heard that too...I just pretend otherwise, it makes me want one less.

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 06:37 AM
Ya I've heard that too...I just pretend otherwise, it makes me want one less.

Hahaha. Oh man they are awesome. The only complaint I have about them is the seat hugs you a little too tight if you are over 170 lbs lol. Or short and wide....

Rhynolite
01-05-2011, 10:04 AM
Removing the VVT is a BAD IDEA. You will do nothing but actually lose power honestly. We have the exact same VVT system as an S4 and they don't remove them. Maybe if we were running a big turbo or 20psi+ but this setup is best with VVT I have no doubt of that.

Really? A lot of the guys over on scaudi run without it as well.. how would there be a loss of power?

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Really? A lot of the guys over on scaudi run without it as well.. how would there be a loss of power?

Really? I haven't seen that. Boost is a restriction of flow. So just because you see more PSI does NOT = more power. With a supercharger it would typically mean you are restricting the pressure more before it get's into the cylinders. Since boost is RPM linear and not load linear like a turbo seeing more PSI w/o a smaller pulley is most likely a loss of power. Although I suppose the raised boost compensates for the restriction but I'd still keep it. It should keep intake temps lower, IDK if you can actually monitor the difference the 1-2 psi would make though.

I have seen them talk about un plugging the variable geometry intake though on the G1 system. That's just because there are long and short runners. The short runners flow better but the long runners are better for torque. The flap flips under vacuum to the long runners so the system is still fairly compatible with the G1.

I'd honestly like to see a dyno of both. And then with VVT on and off.

SEXIC─N
01-05-2011, 11:15 AM
why not just get a B5 S4....?

Don Supreme
01-05-2011, 11:28 AM
Drive a stage2+ or k04'd S4 - there is ZERO noticeable turbo lag. I have Gt2554's and even then, the turbo lag is absolutely acceptable.


I can't comment on the price of superchargers as IDK, all I know is I've raced a few 2.8 s/c, and a 24v vr6 s/c, and my stage2+ S4 (at the time) would more than mop the floor with them.

2.7t longblocks are pretty easy to find these days. Just find out what a swap will cost, and compared it with the cost of supercharging. Maybe even trade up the A4 for a S4?

What he said.......................

Skip the 2.8, A stage 2+ S4 is superior to most normal 1.8t setups...

While my S4 was stage 2+, I beat eliminator a4s, some other bigger setups (but i was smoked by a gt35r powered a4), and even a supercharged vr6 mk3 GTI w/ standalone. I would imagine by the time you spend the money on a SCed 2.8 and the a4, you could easily pick up something else, like a B5 S4 perhaps.

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 01:35 PM
What he said.......................

Skip the 2.8, A stage 2+ S4 is superior to most normal 1.8t setups...


In my case not so much. After BBK, full suspension, center differential, all the normal maintenance, and just overall making sure the car is good I still have less then $8000 in my A4. I have $1000 into the supercharger, $900 STaSIS suspension, $20 for my 4:1 dif, $385 for my clutch, all new control arms, all my oil seals replaced, new steering rack, and all new tie rods. Sure you can buy an S4 for $6000 these days but expect that you will need some control arms and turbo's. You're looking at $2000 if you are lucky and you still have a basically stock car. Plus I refuse to own a car that you have to remove the engine to replace turbo's on...............

_hmnib5
01-05-2011, 01:49 PM
30v 2.8 w a pes g2. ftw.

hope all is well w your family.

geeky
01-05-2011, 02:00 PM
In my case not so much. After BBK, full suspension, center differential, all the normal maintenance, and just overall making sure the car is good I still have less then $8000 in my A4. I have $1000 into the supercharger, $900 STaSIS suspension, $20 for my 4:1 dif, $385 for my clutch, all new control arms, all my oil seals replaced, new steering rack, and all new tie rods. Sure you can buy an S4 for $6000 these days but expect that you will need some control arms and turbo's. You're looking at $2000 if you are lucky and you still have a basically stock car. Plus I refuse to own a car that you have to remove the engine to replace turbo's on...............

This. plus my insurance rates are sky high as it is. to put it in a vague spot, I am not on best terms with my insurance company so insurance rates are sky high.

Don Supreme
01-05-2011, 02:08 PM
In my case not so much. After BBK, full suspension, center differential, all the normal maintenance, and just overall making sure the car is good I still have less then $8000 in my A4. I have $1000 into the supercharger, $900 STaSIS suspension, $20 for my 4:1 dif, $385 for my clutch, all new control arms, all my oil seals replaced, new steering rack, and all new tie rods. Sure you can buy an S4 for $6000 these days but expect that you will need some control arms and turbo's. You're looking at $2000 if you are lucky and you still have a basically stock car. Plus I refuse to own a car that you have to remove the engine to replace turbo's on...............

Yes removing the motor is no small feat................

But if you look hard enough you can find a tricked out stage 2 s4 in condition for 8-9k......... Out the box it will be faster, better looking, and handle better.

Besides the obvious differences between an A4 and S4, there are little tiny things that Audi did on the S4, that makes me wonder why they treated the A4 so bad ha!

- The sealing ring design instead of standard turbo to manifold gasket - good stuff
- The shield over the driveshaft to transmission center diff
- various attempts to stiffen the chassis
- MUCH STRONGER TRANSMISSION (gear strength wise)
- nicer interior

on and on.

Anyway, just saying.. I had a few A4s, so i have seen both sides.

geeky
01-05-2011, 02:21 PM
I guess a more important aspect is that I am 100% set on getting an avant now and getting a clean s4 avant will cost an arm or a leg

034Motorsport
01-05-2011, 03:00 PM
I guess a more important aspect is that I am 100% set on getting an avant now and getting a clean s4 avant will cost an arm or a leg

Its freakin amazing what the avants go for. I got my S4 for under $5000; I can't find an Avant (even a beat up one) for under $12k.


I've done considerable research into producing a turbo setup for the 2.8L B5 V6 A4, even so far as trying to determine whether its a feasible product to offer from 034Motorsport. We will be using my car as the test dummy to see whether it is worth it.

My big qualm with the PES Supercharger is that it really doesn't put much power down, it's expensive, I hate the sound, there is very little support, and theres no top end. While 95% of my driving is in the low end, the 2.8 has pretty good torque as it is, and I'm looking more to let the thing fly a bit more in the mid to high range.

The goal is Stage 1 S4 power, but with the simplicity of a single turbo and the ease of not having to buy a new car. The common response to anyone looking to increase power on their 2.8L V6 is to either buy a 1.8T or buy an S4. While this financially may make sense in the long run, people often act like this is some easy feat. Besides the amount of work and money I've put into my own A4, its not easy to sell a car and buy a new one. Plus, I know everything that has been replaced on my car, and there is sentimental value as well. Heck, I wouldn't even sell my B5 S4 for $5k over what I've invested; just too much work has gone into it. For this reason, I think a simple low-pressure turbo solution could be a great and feasible option.

If you look at my introduction thread in the Chatterbox, I mention a bit more about the project, but essentially it would be a "bolt on" solution. Unlike the 2.7T APB motor (which is stronger and more robust), the AHA/ATQ 2.8L has 2 piece exhaust manifolds that have a flange after the merge collector. Instead of needing to pull the motor on the S4 in order to access the exhaust manifolds, the A4 downpipes can be removed from the manifold with the motor still in the car.

The system would involve manifold adapters that would bolt to the existing collector, and then meet behind the motor to form a divorced T-25/T-3 flange. This WOULD involve cutting of the false firewall, and relocating of the battery as well as custom silicone heater core hoses, which would be the most difficult part of the kit. The turbo would run into a single 3" downpipe that could be mated to a 1.8T A4 downpipe-back exhaust or custom setup.

The most difficult part of the producing the kit would be the tune and the intercooling/intake piping. The most feasible option is to reverse the intake manifold (they can be reversed with no issues), however, this would be a problem for 99.5 models since they have DBC instead of DBW. The setup would run on either a small custom FMIC, or quite possibly with a single SMIC from a B5 S4 or a B5 A4. This kit wouldn't be sold so much as a track setup, as it would be for people who DD their car, so a small SMIC would be sufficient for anything but back to back pulls.

As far as the tune is concerned, in order to keep things very simple, it would be easiest to simply run wastegate pressure on the turbo; say around 8-10psi with a 2871 or similar. This would keep the rods and stuff happy, and would negate any need to integrate an N75 valve into the setup; a manual boost controller could be used too. The big advantage is to the ease of tuning, since it would only be redoing fuel tables and such; not trying to add in the harness from a B5 S4 or running the B5 S4 ECU which is a whole can of worms with dashes, etc.

Price on the kit would probably be right there with the PES Supercharger; however, the kit could easily produce 250-300whp (the max you want to push the 2.8).

Now if you are planning on running big power, then it makes complete sense to buy an APB 2.7 block because even stock they can handle about 450whp safely. Or just buy an S4. There is a local B5 with a built APB 2.8L motor and tons of mods thats going for under $15k. The motor has nearly $20k invested into it.

geeky
01-05-2011, 04:44 PM
Max, keep me updated about that. I am very intrigued to find out more. Im pretty set on a 2.8 lately just because I really do need that displacement in Colorado now. And whether that be a turbo or a supercharger, I just want to make a reliable mid to upper 200awhp for DD, period. thats the bottom line to make it cut and dry.

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 04:57 PM
250AWHP is about the most you can push the 2.8 to in stock form. While the block and rods are good for more then enough the piston ring design cannot handle a constant 10 psi. Usually this happens

http://tomasz.data2net.org/gallery-albums/album109/Picture_029.jpg

Don Supreme
01-05-2011, 05:09 PM
I am curious, is it a weak piston or a poor PES tune?

geeky
01-05-2011, 05:27 PM
It's got to be the tune. I recall reading about horror stories for the G2 on the B6 due to the lack of tuning. But somebody, like we were discussing in another thread, if its the design of the rings being too close to the dome, a good watermeth kit should be able to remedy the heat issues.

Avi'sA6
01-05-2011, 05:48 PM
I would be so down for that kit Max.. Ive been looking to put some more power in the 2.8

Do you think the kit would work with us A6 guys also?

somebody5788
01-05-2011, 06:24 PM
IMO if you are going for an affordable and reliable turbo kit for a 2.8. Make a mid or rear mount. Very little R&D would be needed and it would be easy to install.

2001A6
01-05-2011, 07:05 PM
He said B5, not A4...stroll into the S4 builds sub-forum ;)

It would still take a lot of money to make an S4 run with most sport bikes. 10s means ko4s and a completly stripped car, on race gas, or GTs. Neither one of those is cheap, at least not to me.


It's got to be the tune. I recall reading about horror stories for the G2 on the B6 due to the lack of tuning. But somebody, like we were discussing in another thread, if its the design of the rings being too close to the dome, a good watermeth kit should be able to remedy the heat issues.

G3 not G2, and I remember reading tons of horrer stories about blown 3.0s commiting suicide due to poor tunes, but the G2 in "stock" form with out changing pullies seems to be pretty rock solid.


I would be so down for that kit Max.. Ive been looking to put some more power in the 2.8

Do you think the kit would work with us A6 guys also?

Should, the A6 has just a tiny bit more room under the hood. Not much, but some. Though, you would need to scrap the auto trans, it wouldnt like 10 psi too much, haha.

Coopa
01-05-2011, 07:18 PM
gt series s4 avant > any sport bike

Both of which i'm not going to afford hahah.

I feel ya on insurance issues [headbang]

geeky
01-05-2011, 07:20 PM
Aw the G3, my mistake on that. As for making anything run close to a CBR, I don't need it because if I ever want to go as fast as a motorcycle, I'll do just that, get on my CBR hahaha

but the A6 should be able to run the same kit, the only thing that would most likely need to be changed is the routing of the exhaust, which can easily be done by going to an exhaust shop.

DonnieDark0
01-05-2011, 07:32 PM
Max, keep me updated about that. I am very intrigued to find out more. Im pretty set on a 2.8 lately just because I really do need that displacement in Colorado now. And whether that be a turbo or a supercharger, I just want to make a reliable mid to upper 200awhp for DD, period. thats the bottom line to make it cut and dry.

dude no. get a 1.8t and go BAT and never look back. throw some rods in there and w/e build the block, BAT + meth and a sweet custom tune and shoot for the sky. do it!!!!!

4squared
01-05-2011, 07:33 PM
For me finding a Black/Black S4 Avant for a reasonable price will be near impossible. I'm looking into picking up a 2.7t block and some internals. Not exactly sure of the route I want to go but atleast I'd be prepared just incase.

and Max +2312 on the kit.

2001A6
01-05-2011, 07:38 PM
gt series s4 avant > any sport bike

Both of which i'm not going to afford hahah.

I feel ya on insurance issues [headbang]

184 rwhp and 430lbs wet > 500 awhp and like 3600lbs wet. [;)]

SEXIC─N
01-05-2011, 09:19 PM
I was looking for a S4 avant myself and it was very hard to find. If you are not in a hurry, the deal of the life time will show up! I ended up picking up a bone stock S4 with 50k on the clock for $8k I have since done a TB/WP/Coolant and made it stage 2+ (not tuned for the meth), but the drive of this is amazing! i have a Stage2 2.0T A4 B7 and my S4 walks my A4 every day of the week!

You can get close to 300AWHP on stock turbos with the S you need a BAT or running more boost on the PES SC to get close to that!

Ldiaz12
01-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Wow only if the 2.8 12v had this support, it really sucks having a slow car at times it can be frustrating

Raacerx
01-05-2011, 11:11 PM
I was looking for a S4 avant myself and it was very hard to find. If you are not in a hurry, the deal of the life time will show up! I ended up picking up a bone stock S4 with 50k on the clock for $8k I have since done a TB/WP/Coolant and made it stage 2+ (not tuned for the meth), but the drive of this is amazing! i have a Stage2 2.0T A4 B7 and my S4 walks my A4 every day of the week!

You can get close to 300AWHP on stock turbos with the S you need a BAT or running more boost on the PES SC to get close to that!

I dynoed over 300whp with meth on my Stage 2+ S4. An S4 with exhaust, chip, downpipes, and meth will destroy pretty much anything on the road. Don't forget that with 25% drivetrain loss that's over 375bhp. It will take on Porsches, new M3's, etc.

However, sometimes its just not feasible to get a new car. The insurance is cheaper on an A4 too, and I got my A4 for about $2k. 8-10psi is the goal, and nothing to win races. 250+whp is safe on the motor, especially with meth as someone mentioned.

I doubt its a feasible kit to make, but I am going for it once my S4 is running well, so we'll see.

Also, I agree that a 1.8T is better, but sometimes things just don't that way and some people just have a special place for their 2.8 and know its not really worth selling.

somebody5788
01-06-2011, 05:36 AM
I was looking for a S4 avant myself and it was very hard to find. If you are not in a hurry, the deal of the life time will show up! I ended up picking up a bone stock S4 with 50k on the clock for $8k I have since done a TB/WP/Coolant and made it stage 2+ (not tuned for the meth), but the drive of this is amazing! i have a Stage2 2.0T A4 B7 and my S4 walks my A4 every day of the week!

You can get close to 300AWHP on stock turbos with the S you need a BAT or running more boost on the PES SC to get close to that!

I have driven 2 Stage 2+ S4's. With a Milltek true dual exhaust they freaken scoot but I'm still sticking with my SC'd 2.8. My friend is on here as krypto or something and he's got 2 of them.

He averages bringing his car in 6.38 times a year and he has spent 10k here. This was after the S's warranty ran out which he had put new turbo's in under warranty as well as a lot of other things that totalled closer to $15k..... his car is still almost stock.

The car is even here right now (I work at a shop FYI)........... hahahahaha

DonnieDark0
01-06-2011, 06:22 AM
^plz don't start the reliability arguement. Ive owned 2 b5 s4s and 3 b5 b6 a4s, my a4s were in the shop more. Yes it's cheaper but doesn't necessary mean more reliable.

somebody5788
01-06-2011, 03:34 PM
^plz don't start the reliability arguement. Ive owned 2 b5 s4s and 3 b5 b6 a4s, my a4s were in the shop more. Yes it's cheaper but doesn't necessary mean more reliable.

Well I'm just voicing my observation.... I see the S4's a whole lot more then the A4's here. And the S4's all have lower miles.

2001A6
01-06-2011, 03:52 PM
Either S4 or an A4, its still VAG. Some are great, some are nightmares, draw a straw!

My car has been wonderfull as far as reliablility goes, but I know people who will never own a VW or Audi again.

For example.. I know two people with mostly the same 00 S4s, both "stage 2" cars with 100k on them, one is rock solid, the other is a turd. Who knew?

DonnieDark0
01-06-2011, 03:55 PM
Either S4 or an A4, its still VAG. Some are great, some are nightmares, draw a straw!

My car has been wonderfull as far as reliablility goes, but I know people who will never own a VW or Audi again.

For example.. I know two people with mostly the same 00 S4s, both "stage 2" cars with 100k on them, one is rock solid, the other is a turd. Who knew?

took the words out of my mouth! true statements my man

geeky
01-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Im actually curious about the QC for audi as there really are lemons vs. perfect a4's and s4's.

2001A6
01-07-2011, 04:55 PM
Im actually curious about the QC for audi as there really are lemons vs. perfect a4's and s4's.

Thats hard to say. I really don't think Audi is any worse than other brands, you will find horror and success stories about pretty much any marque. Mostly it has to do with how the car is maintained, and cared for, but somethings you cant control. I am a Mercedes technician, and we see the same stuff. Some cars have zero problems, some cars end up being nothing but problems. Is it poor QC, idk, honestly luck of the draw imho. You just don't know.

Insomniac
01-07-2011, 10:45 PM
IMO if you are going for an affordable and reliable turbo kit for a 2.8. Make a mid or rear mount. Very little R&D would be needed and it would be easy to install.

x2. I'd like to see a remote turbo setup under 300whp. But I'm highly interested in what Max will find in his research with 034.