The Great Maestro 7 Tuning Suite Thread

[MmmBoost]

Since more and more people are jumping on the Maestro wagon, it seems as though we need a dedicated thread here on Audizine in order to discuss and help each other out.

So Maestro users.......and potential Maestro users..........this is now your forum. Please feel free to ask questions, post findings, etc so everyone can read, learn, and help each other out.



As well as posting questions, info, etc here.....I would also recommend signing up on the Eurodyne forum. There is a lot of good information there regarding features and trouble-shooting.

I am also MmmBoost there... http://eurodyne.ca/forum/


Some VERY informative threads....

Maestro maps, axes, units, descriptions (http://www.eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=689)
HOWTO: Scale the Flowmeter map for your custom MAF housing (http://www.eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=995)
For you: An Excel spreadsheet useful for tuning (http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=744&start=0&hilit=pivot) <===== an AMAZING tool create by our very own, bananas


public service announcement
If you are trying to reset an entire map to zero corrections.........DO NOT set the entire map equal to "1" You must set it to at least 1.0001. Setting maps to 1.0000 will disable that map in the calculations and may have a very negative consequences.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

We definitely need this to be a sticky.

[champion]

Here's everything already summed up[up] http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4613781-Maestro-7-Tuning-FAQ-DIY-hard-data-and-advice-thread&highlight=Maestro+Tuning

[MmmBoost]

I'll answer this in here...


Chris did you say your running a .31 constant on the 630's ?

What battery voltage comp setting? I'm running .291 on the 630's


At the moment I'm running Siemens Deka IV 630cc's, but I'll be switching to Genesis 550cc's because they have the factory-correct dual cone spray pattern as well as they are more easily controllable at lower pulse width.


I was running a .031-ish constant, however, since rev 1.9.1 or 1.9,2 of Maestro, Tapp has "adjusted" the way the AMB engine uses/calculates/whatever the injecter constant. I am now running running a constant of .044255.



What do you mean .291? there are 5 Voltages you should have numbers for.

[alpinestar180]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?

holy shit i didnt realize that maestro was $1000

maybe not.... =)

anywhere to get it cheaper?

[7speed]

Yes it comes with a base map of your choice. There is a lot to learn.

[MmmBoost]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?


I figured it was time. There are a lot of curious people out there compared to when I went with it. Documentation is VERY minimal so the more help we can offer each other as a community, the better.


When you order the software/tuning suite, you have to read your ECU and send the file in with your mods. You then get a base file back which is written for your injectors and ECU and I believe turbo size (give or take).


It's a decent place to start.....but it's not perfect and needs work to make things run very well. I'm a bit anal though.......so I am constantly tweaking and changing things to make it even better.

[nein-reis]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?

holy shit i didnt realize that maestro was $1000

maybe not.... =)

anywhere to get it cheaper?


This is not for you, sorry. Its 1000.00 at its cheapest, and thats a bargain for what it delivers. Also, the base map is for big turbo's... its not designed/intended/or working with stock lowly modded cars. Its a great program, but not a magic horsepower finder. If you find yourself spending 5-20K on a motor build turbo build in the future, then it is for you. If not, it will do nothing for you. This is not a system that was made to tune your K03/K04 system, and if you don't realize this... you should honestly stay away ...far away from it.

[MmmBoost]

This is not for you, sorry. Its 1000.00 at its cheapest, and thats a bargain for what it delivers. Also, the base map is for big turbo's... its not designed/intended/or working with stock lowly modded cars. Its a great program, but not a magic horsepower finder. If you find yourself spending 5-20K on a motor build turbo build in the future, then it is for you. If not, it will do nothing for you. This is not a system that was made to tune your K03/K04 system, and if you don't realize this... you should honestly stay away ...far away from it.


jmw241 is having some success using Maestro on his K03 until he gets his BT build done. I give him props for that...... tuning that twitchy little turbo must be a nightmare.


To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.

[alpinestar180]

i am probably almost as anal as you, chris... ALMOST (just not nearly as experienced lol) I don't want you guys to think that I am just jumping on the maestro band wagon because it sounds cool. I know i would be spending lots of time tweaking. I am not looking into maestro because i think its the best solution for my k03 (and the K03 is not my end goal), i am looking into it because i plan on doing a build, and i don't want to dump 400-600 dollars (that i know i can save) by getting a flash, when i will want maestro down the road when i do the build. If i get it now and become well versed in its operation, it will be much easier to deal with when i DO finally start my build. Im just thinking in terms of my longer term goals.

I would hate to go APR 1+ and then get a BT setup 6 months later and have to toss the apr software and injectors (or lose money in a resale)

maybe it's just another inevitable expense of owning a b6

[nofearhawk]

I have maestro on my almost completely stock car at the moment, stage 1 file from tapp.

I'm also building a motor in my living room though, so in the meantime I'm just playing around with little things here and there. I wanted the ability to read and clear fault codes, upgradeable, and not have to rely on someone else's schedule to tune/fix/get my car running the way I want.

I will say though, if you don't consider yourself tech/computer savvy, maestro is not for you. There's no instruction manual or anything, you have to rely on past peoples experiences and some insight here and there from tapp.

BTW you can get it for 900 shipped, and USP said they would be willing to sponsor a group buy (check group buy request forum), I couldn't wait around but you can see my thread there.

[SleeperAvant]

great thread, make it sticky! Thanks MmmBoost.

[pape]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

[Dan[FN]6262]

*this needs sticky action

in for when I get connection with my ECU again lol

[dougyfresh]

To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.

If you don't have the time to dedicate to tweaking maps but need a custom written file there are tuning sources out there that can do this for you (ASP, Avalon, EPL, etc..). That is what I did because I just do not have the time to tweak things. It would have taken me a few months with the time allotment I have if I were doing it on my own with Maestro. It took ASP less than a week to write and modify my files that are on my ECu. Changes from here are less than a day of dyno and street time. Maestro was also not available when I needed it (1-2 years ago).

[dougyfresh]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

Best to call Eurodyno and talk to Chris directly about this. I am not sure if anything will transfer since the 2002 is a completely different set of base maps. Go straight to the source for answers..

[jmw241]

I'll answer this in here...




At the moment I'm running Siemens Deka IV 630cc's, but I'll be switching to Genesis 550cc's because they have the factory-correct dual cone spray pattern as well as they are more easily controllable at lower pulse width.


I was running a .031-ish constant, however, since rev 1.9.1 or 1.9,2 of Maestro, Tapp has "adjusted" the way the AMB engine uses/calculates/whatever the injecter constant. I am now running running a constant of .044255.



What do you mean .291? there are 5 Voltages you should have numbers for.

I run a .0291 injector constant right now, with the same 630's. So you jumped up from .031 to .044 since the latest update? That's a big jump, what changes have you noticed?

I will update later on with the voltages I'm currently running, I never made any changes to them from the base 630 file.

[MmmBoost]

I run a .0291 injector constant right now, with the same 630's. So you jumped up from .031 to .044 since the latest update? That's a big jump, what changes have you noticed?

I will update later on with the voltages I'm currently running, I never made any changes to them from the base 630 file.

No with the new version my number jumped. It doesn't run any different, just somehow the software calculated it different.

I've been slowly lowering my Minimum Injector Pulsewidth and it seems to be leaning up my idle to where i want it.

[613B6]

I dropped by battery comp table by about 20% and idles like perfect again even with low load. The only ill effects is I'm seeing more o2 correction (positive) than before. Going try half those values on the way home...
i

[jmw241]

jmw241 is having some success using Maestro on his K03 until he gets his BT build done. I give him props for that...... tuning that twitchy little turbo must be a nightmare.


To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.


Thanks a lot Chris. You gave me tons of help and it paid off.

It was a bitch, but I enjoied every bit of it, learned tons and had a blast doing so. It does not run perfect, and there is alot left to make this ko3 tune perfect, Im hoping to be gtx-3071 within a week. I had planed on original having a BT on the car 2-3 weeks ago and that's why I stoped making big changes to the ko3 file.

To Anyone that wants to tune their Ko3 with Maestro. First off, im willing to help anyone, give screen shots of my maps ect. But know this, I tuned my ko3 with a big ass fmic. I don't see 21-22 psi until 3k or slightly after that and then it's 22 psi till 4k then it tapers down to 15 psi by 4700 an. 13 by 5200.

Because of how the turbo spools, and spike/tappers off so dramaticly and only over 2k rpms it makes tuning and the driving characteristics of the car a bit rough. Part throttle around 3k took a little while to smooth out, but the fmic made this easier to tune tbh. It's going to be harder to tune on a stock smic because you wi spike sooner, so you will need to really smooth out the boost pid table to account for that.


Also, there are different ways to tune, or different methods. I know that I tweaked the boost pid table alot at first, while both Chris and Chris did not.


All in all it is definitly possible to tune a ko3 with maestro. My biggest fear though is that we will start to see people attempt to tune ko3's with Maestro, when that person has no business doing so. I spent months learning about the basics of hardware first where I had a very solid understanding of how different components of the car function. If you don't understand what an n75 valve works, or what sensors the car uses to calculate desiered a/f, and the list goes on. You need a great understanding of the hardware first IMO, then you need to learn how the software will control that hardware. It's very easy to screw something up, I rememer when I first started tuning, I was adjusting my injector constant, first thing i messed with. I stead of giving the car a 3% injector constant I gave it 30%, obviously when I went to go start the car she did not fire up, wicked wicked rich.

Keep in mind if you asked me what an cam chain tensioner, map sensor, or 02 sensor was 12 months ago I would have been confused.

Now I'm pulling cams, and tuning my car......you can lean this stuff, it's just a matter of how much time/dedication you give it.

[Audi Skate Snow]

This definitely needs to be updated on the first post daily as well. Trying to read 30+ pages on the maestro on vortex is ridiculous.

[lave3k]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.[:D]

[jmw241]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.[:D]


I don't know who you are, where you came from or what you just said (I'll read into it later when I have time to understand/figure it out)

But rock on! This looks like solid information and is exactly what we need! Thanks bro!

[613B6]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.[:D]

wow great info! thanks!

[dougyfresh]

I don't know who you are, where you came from or what you just said (I'll read into it later when I have time to understand/figure it out)

But rock on! This looks like solid information and is exactly what we need! Thanks bro!

He tunes motronic based ECUs via hex editors and the like (like all other motronic custom tuners.)

[dougyfresh]

My biggest fear though is that we will start to see people attempt to tune ko3's with Maestro, when that person has no business doing so.

Give it time. It'll happen. This is a risk Eurodyne took when releasing this front end. I am sure they are covered legally should someone do blow up their engine due to lack of knowledge when modifying maps and try to press legal action towards Eurodyne.

[bananas]

Here's everything already summed up[up] http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4613781-Maestro-7-Tuning-FAQ-DIY-hard-data-and-advice-thread&highlight=Maestro+Tuning

let me just say that I've been reading that thread (up until a couple months ago) and there are a lot of misinformed individuals posting there [up]

[MmmBoost]

let me just say that I've been reading that thread (up until a couple months ago) and there are a lot of misinformed individuals posting there [up]

Agreed. I don't even go back there to see if anyone has written anything worthwhile or helpful

[bananas]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

Hey man, nice to see you in here :) Did you ever get a TunerPro xdf out of WinOLS or post your summary/analysis somewhere?

[lave3k]

Yeah.... I ended up not going the TunerPro route and instead of open sourcing the whole thing I went to the dark side.[evilsmile] What can I say don't look at me...I'm a monster!
Anyway I'd like to help out with some summary/how to on here. Have you shared your magical data plotting/sorter sheet? -that thing is fantastic.

[nein-reis]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

[AudiHere04]

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

Isn't the initial read file your stock ecu file or whatever you had pre-maestro?

[nein-reis]

Isn't the initial read file your stock ecu file or whatever you had pre-maestro?

Yes there is, I assume your thinking I should have just loaded that again right? That would of been nice, but when I said it bricked it... it really did. Not only are the files different, they are in different places. So when I flashed the wrong ECU files on it, it moved it all around. Neither Maestro or the car could read it, so it was completely unresponsive to anything.

[nein-reis]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

[Sales@RAI]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

Well because of this I think an external wideband should be standard regardless if you plan on making over 300awhp

[pape]

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

Would it be posible if we swapped. ECU's, Cluster's, and immobilizer chips???

[nein-reis]

Would it be posible if we swapped. ECU's, Cluster's, and immobilizer chips???

I cant say... I'm thinking no. I'm not sure if you can swap clusters either... mileage issue?

Also, when I put my new ECU into my car a good friend who worked at a unnamed dealership did a live connect with Audi tech in the shop to recode my cluster to the new ECU... (big reason being I was 2003 3.0 and swapping a 2002 ecu in) to get it all to be happy together.

[Hansi]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

While I do see your point I believe the ME7 has fairly many safeguards against blowing up your motor..
But of course, it can happen, and yes you need to be careful..

[dougyfresh]

While I do see your point I believe the ME7 has fairly many safeguards against blowing up your motor..
But of course, it can happen, and yes you need to be careful..

There are safeguards but this software allows you to make drastic changes to maps. Drastic changes in the wrong direction without the proper knowledge of the ramifications will results in engine failure.

It is inevitable that this will happen. That day will come as Eurodyne sells more and more of these tuning suites.

[Hansi]

There are safeguards but this software allows you to make drastic changes to maps. Drastic changes in the wrong direction without the proper knowledge of the ramifications will results in engine failure.

It is inevitable that this will happen. That day will come as Eurodyne sells more and more of these tuning suites.

I agree, however, I think common sense should stop you from making drastic changes if you don't know what you are doing, hehe..

But enough about that, great thread.. I am sure this is the future, even with that slight chance of blowing something up (if you lack the common sense mentioned) [:)]

[Dan[FN]6262]

Just wait a couple years until the Maestro community has a really good base community like megasquirt. And there are more than a few people that really know what they're doing.

[dougyfresh]

I agree, however, I think common sense should stop you from making drastic changes if you don't know what you are doing, hehe..

When it comes to reality and the general public I have learned that common sense does not apply (on an average basis).

[Dan[FN]6262]

When it comes to reality and the general public I have learned that common sense does not apply (on an average basis).

X2

[bananas]

When it comes to reality and the general public I have learned that common sense does not apply (on an average basis).
Wow that was a really nice way of saying my own personal mantra: "people are stupid"
:)

[drjonez]

Wow that was a really nice way of saying my own personal mantra: "people are stupid"
:)

Isn't that the truth....

Good to see this going more mainstream. Yes, as the masses begin to adopt there will be a plethora of stupid questions and "why did my motor blows up when i sets boost targets to lots"....but that's expected. Let them blow their crap up, perhaps they'll learn something in the process.

That said, Maestro is in my future.

[nein-reis]

When it comes to reality and the general public I have learned that common sense does not apply (on an average basis).

LOL!!! This is true, ask anyone who has ever worked a day in retail or customer service.... most people, are dumb.

[dougyfresh]

Question: Can you recalibrate the fuel consumption on the DIS? Instantaneous MPG and average MPG?

[MmmBoost]

Question: Can you recalibrate the fuel consumption on the DIS? Instantaneous MPG and average MPG?

You can change the Consumption Gauge Constant which is what is used for the DIS

[7speed]

Damnit, everytime I flash my car my fuel guage goes to E. Also I set my rev limiter to 8500, but I cuts me off at like 7400. Is the tach too slow ?

[Dan[FN]6262]

Damnit, everytime I flash my car my fuel guage goes to E. Also I set my rev limiter to 8500, but I cuts me off at like 7400. Is the tach too slow ?

In first gear I always get cut off at what looks like 6.5k, but every other gear is 7.5k

idk what the deal is.

[EBG 18T]

Glad chris pointed me over to this thread. My cable just came in and it time for the fun to begin.

[613B6]

Damnit, everytime I flash my car my fuel guage goes to E. Also I set my rev limiter to 8500, but I cuts me off at like 7400. Is the tach too slow ?

This happen to me a few times only when my fuel is really low, not sure why. As for the rev limit, try rev limiter 2 the fist one for me didn't work at all but the second did. I'd love to why there are two of them anyways

[Hansi]

This happen to me a few times only when my fuel is really low, not sure why. As for the rev limit, try rev limiter 2 the fist one for me didn't work at all but the second did. I'd love to why there are two of them anyways

Maybe it's soft and hard cut? I don't know, just a thought..

http://passionford.com/forum/general-car-related-discussion/79789-what-is-a-soft-cut-and-hard-cut-rev-limiter.html

[Sales@RAI]

Hey so I have too much fuel at partial throttle. Is there a specific map for that? I've been just doing the main fuel correction map

[MmmBoost]

Hey so I have too much fuel at partial throttle. Is there a specific map for that? I've been just doing the main fuel correction map

Depending on what load and RPM you're at it could be Voltage Compensation table or your Injector Constant........or both. If you're running a MAF you may also need to adjust your Flowmeter Correction table.

Adjusting the voltage compensation table has the most noticable effect on low pulsewidth areas ie. idle and low load. Injector Constant effects the whole RPM and Load range.

What injectors are you running? What fuel pressure? What size engine?

[Sales@RAI]

Depending on what load and RPM you're at it could be Voltage Compensation table or your Injector Constant........or both. If you're running a MAF you may also need to adjust your Flowmeter Correction table.

Adjusting the voltage compensation table has the most noticable effect on low pulsewidth areas ie. idle and low load. Injector Constant effects the whole RPM and Load range.

What injectors are you running? What fuel pressure? What size engine?

830cc Lucas
4 bar rising rate FPR
2008cc

My injector constant is high, like .062X I kept upping it until it idled nicely. It's slightly rough but not bad for the cams I have. Would I add or decrease voltage?

[MmmBoost]

830cc Lucas
4 bar rising rate FPR
2008cc

My injector constant is high, like .062X I kept upping it until it idled nicely. It's slightly rough but not bad for the cams I have. Would I add or decrease voltage?


.062 is FAR too high for 830cc's on a 4bar. I'm using .060XXX with 550's on a 4bar. Your Injector Constant should be approximately .04444396

You should not be using IC to tune idle. Battery Voltage Compensation should be used. While injector constant does still affect idle, it's effect can be seen at higher load situations with longer pulsewidths because it is used as a multiplicative value rather than an additive value like the Latency values of the Battery Voltage Compensation table.


I don't know what your response curve should look like with the Lucas injectors, but in order to lean out idle...you will need to lower this table. The units of this table are in (ms) so be careful not to adjust this table too much at one time. To lean out idle, you will need to decrease this table.

[Sales@RAI]

.062 is FAR too high for 830cc's on a 4bar. I'm using .060XXX with 550's on a 4bar. Your Injector Constant should be approximately .04444396

You should not be using IC to tune idle. Battery Voltage Compensation should be used. I don't know what your response curve should look like with the Lucas injectors, but in order to lean out idle...you will need to lower this table. The units of this table are in (ms) so be careful not to adjust this table too much at one time. To lean out idle, you will need to decrease this table.

you got it man. So put the IC to .04444396 and start bumping the voltage table down slowly?

[MmmBoost]

you got it man. So put the IC to .04444396 and start bumping the voltage table down slowly?

Sounds good. As I explained to someone else that was asking some questions through PM...... you must get the IC set correct FIRST because this is the main value used to calculate required pulsewidth at ALL points on the map based on load. It is VERY VERY important to get this right otherwise you will have to compensate a lot more in many other maps.

I told him this, "Very light throttle and low loads has a LOT to do with Battery Voltage Compensation. You could have the right IC but the completely wrong BVC values and your idle and super light loads will be most effected. You need to lower you BVC table values a lot. Infact I would suggest dropping them by .1 or .2 to start with." He is running 1000cc's on a 3bar setup on a 2008cc.

I would also recommend turning the boost down until you get your fueling sorted out.

Set the IC to what it should be (this is a calculated value......not a blind guess, although it still may need some very fine tuning) then start lowering the BVC table. Like i mentioned, I have no idea what the Lucas response curve should look like, so I can't offer much assistance on what your initial curve should look like.....but you can check the slow of the line to make sure you have the right relationship between Voltage and Latency.

To check that the slope is correct......with a warmed up car, sit at idle for and turn absolutely everything off while logging. Then turn EVERYTHING on you can......heated seats on full, high beams, rear window defrost.....basically anything you can turn on to put more electrical draw on the system and see how this affects your corrections. If the car gets richer, you know you need to lower the value at that voltage. If the car gets leaner....you must add time. So add or subtract time at the closest Voltage value on the table for the recorded voltage at that point. Once you get the right slope on the line......then go back to removing (ms) from all values to lower the whole curve equally. Don't scale by %

[gotboost]

what should the injector constant be for the seimens 630cc injectors, and the battery voltage compensation is used to help with a rough idle? my idle is rough only when the car is up to full operating temperature.

[EBG 18T]

Chris - you mention you are using the ic of 0.060xxx. Which 550cc injectors are you using? I have the genesis 550cc and I need to scale the 630 file down for the 550 injectors.

[MmmBoost]

what should the injector constant be for the seimens 630cc injectors, and the battery voltage compensation is used to help with a rough idle? my idle is rough only when the car is up to full operating temperature.

Battery Voltage Compensation must be tuned to compensate for how quickly the injectors react based on the voltage supplied to them. More voltage = faster response. Lowering this table will help remove time from the calculation injection pulsewidth......and because PW is so low at idle it will have the most noticeable effect here.


look at it this way.....

consider this..... At 14V say you need to add 3 slashes to compensate for the injector latency at 14V ///, and at idle you need ##### for a require PW at idle around 21% load.

so your PW would look like this:

///#####

say you turn on the defroster and the heated seats and your idle voltage now drops to 13V. suddenly......you now need to add 2 more // to compensate for the slower response.......but the required ACTUAL fuel pulse remains the same, your new PW looks like this

/////#####

Now consider the difference BVC makes at WOT. Situation is as follows..... 14V and required pulsewidth 5x more than idle.

///#########################

Now you see how much smaller of an effect BVC has on higher load/higher RPM situations. it accounts for a MUCH smaller % in the actual overall calculated PW.



Chris - you mention you are using the IC of 0.060xxx. Which 550cc injectors are you using? I have the genesis 55pcc and I need to scale the 630 file down for the 550 injectors.

I'm now down to a 0.060287 IC, but the calculated value I have was .0601433314. I have just come across some information today that may upset how MANY people are going about "correcting" fuel. I will keep posted, I need to do more reading to be sure.

for BVC on the Genesis 550's I recommend using any of the Bosch Voltage Compensation default tables from the Injector Wizard. Then lower the whole table by about .1 ms to start.

[gotboost]

So i just opened my maestro and my injector constant is at 0.047595, this is how the base file came!

[MmmBoost]

So i just opened my maestro and my injector constant is at 0.047595, this is how the base file came!

Trust that if you like. I certainly don't. From all the reading I've done I have good reason to believe different.

[gotboost]

I will change it to the one you said, I also opened the injector wizard and hit the seimens 630 button and that changed my BCV, from the ones I had previous. do you remember what your BCV were when you had your 630's

[MmmBoost]

I will change it to the one you said, I also opened the injector wizard and hit the seimens 630 button and that changed my BCV, from the ones I had previous. do you remember what your BCV were when you had your 630's

Back onto the subject of .047595.....how awesome was your fueling without any additional corrections on the 630? Mine was GARBAGE. I decided to find my own information from people that actually gave explanations as to how this stuff all works.

I jumped ship on the 630s at about the same time I started finding all this new information....so my values are not going to be helpful to you.

[gotboost]

The fueling was decent. Some of the o2 corrections would get up to 20% though.out of the box. Only problem pretty much has been the rough idle. So I'll try to mess with the BCV and see if I can get it better. Will raising the injector constant you gave me make the car run richer?

[EBG 18T]

I'm now down to a 0.060287 IC, but the calculated value I have was .0601433314. I have just come across some information today that may upset how MANY people are going about "correcting" fuel. I will keep posted, I need to do more reading to be sure.

for BVC on the Genesis 550's I recommend using any of the Bosch Voltage Compensation default tables from the Injector Wizard. Then lower the whole table by about .1 ms to start.

Thanks chris. I will start there.

[MmmBoost]

The fueling was decent. Some of the o2 corrections would get up to 20% though.out of the box. Only problem pretty much has been the rough idle. So I'll try to mess with the BCV and see if I can get it better. Will raising the injector constant you gave me make the car run richer?

Considering the base file is a BASE FILE, I would have expected that idle should have been sorted out properly to start with. This is one of the reasons I trust the values in the "base file" less and less as I dig further and further into ME7.5 and how it works.

[jmw241]

Injector constant for the 630cc on a 1.8T (1781cc) should be 0.051721223

- Ok, wow.

I'v been useing .43-.44 and have had good results thus far, at least in my eyes. Put close to 5k on the car with maestro and she is FAST for a ko3, I'm taking modded b5 ko4d a4's in well running condition......so that's my proof that shes running well lol. Though there is much to be desiered from a DD standpoint that I need to work on.

This could explainy why I run rich at idel, lower constant, lower pulse width, 630's can't do the low PW's like the 550s can.
Now mind you im using thestock b6 fueling system.

[613B6]

God I feel for you tring to tune the pid table and duty with that snappy turbo. I found my gtrs took some trial and error...more error before I got the hang of it.

[jmw241]

God I feel for you tring to tune the pid table and duty with that snappy turbo. I found my gtrs took some trial and error...more error before I got the hang of it.

It's not bad with the ER COMP fmic. It's so big that the ko3 comes in like a gtrs, just not as much power

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5122/5318610971_4a25105cd0_o.png
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5318610933_e0e0cf6731_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5244/5318610919_f47fd96e45_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5318610885_b6baced745_b.jpg

[MmmBoost]

Right out of the Bosch ME7 documentation...... for those of you that don't know, KRKTE A.K.A. Injector Constant

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg


n-Heptane = 0.684g/cc

630cc/min x 0.684g/cc = 430.92g/min <===== mass flow of injectors (this needs to be calculated for operating pressure so this way is NOT correct for the B6....see below for correct way.)

Instead it should be: 630 x sqrt(58/43.5) = 727.5cc/min <======calculating flow for at operating pressure vs. rated pressure

727.5 x 0.684 = 497.58 g/min

actual engine displacement = 1781 cc = 1.781 L.
number of cylinders = 4

KRKTE = 50.2624*(1.781/4)/497.58 = 0.044976

EDIT: I have found out that Qstat at system operating pressure must be used in this calculation. Qstat is normally given at injectors tested at 3-bar. The AMB returnless system is 4 bar.

[SleeperAvant]

I tried using a lower injector constant on my 630cc 1.8T and the car would not start. I flashed back to original file I used with the injector constant of .43-.44 and it started up no problem.

[613B6]

Its weird that even though alot of us have the 630 sei injector we all have different IC. I started at .51 and increased about 12% to get my o2 correction with +/-7% and reduced my voltage comp per tapps email (car was switching to open loop at low load) and my car idles perfect and drives like stock in all temps.

[MmmBoost]

I tried using a lower injector constant on my 630cc 1.8T and the car would not start. I flashed back to original file I used with the injector constant of .43-.44 and it started up no problem.

.051 is larger than .044. Smaller number = less fuel, so I'm not surprised that the car didn't start.


Its weird that even though alot of us have the 630 sei injector we all have different IC. I started at .51 and increased about 12% to get my o2 correction with +/-7% and reduced my voltage comp per tapps email (car was switching to open loop at low load) and my car idles perfect and drives like stock in all temps.

This could be due to small inconsistencies between injectors.

[gotboost]

So I used the BAttery compensation voltages hat the injector wizard gave me. Instead if the ones that I had before. Now the car idles a million times better.

[MmmBoost]

So I used the BAttery compensation voltages hat the injector wizard gave me. Instead if the ones that I had before. Now the car idles a million times better.


Genesis 550s + the right Voltage Compensation = WIN. My idle is nearly perfect. O2 correction at idle is +/-4. LTFT at idle is 0

[SleeperAvant]

LTFT?

[MmmBoost]

Long Term Fuel Trim. The first reading in Block 032 is idle. second is part throttle

[gotboost]

Genesis 550s + the right Voltage Compensation = WIN. My idle is nearly perfect. O2 correction at idle is +/-4. LTFT at idle is 0

I might switch to those in the summer. I had them originally and sold them for the 630's.

[gotboost]

And also, I am requesting around 14.5 afr at idle and actual is around 12:1. What would I use to correct that?

[MmmBoost]

Battery Voltage Compensation

[jmw241]

Chris, What are your thoughts w/ my IC?

[JumboBlack1.8]

MAF and Injector Scaling
http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=55.0title=

Found this website through a google search....So far, it's been a GREAT resource to learn some general info on how the ME7 ECU works. From reading a few threads, there seems to be a healthy amount of knowledgeable user who really know how the Bosch ECU works. In addition to this thread, this link should help ya'll get started on scaling your MAF's and dialing in your injectors

[JumboBlack1.8]

General Tuning Definitions for those that don't know:
http://www.noid.org/~lj/PCM%20Tutorial/Definitions.htm

[Sales@RAI]

The new Maestro doesn't support 02s WTF I was gonna tune tonight. Sent Chris an E-mail I'm sure he'll have it ironed out in the morning.

Anyway, 7Speed gave me his file to look at (can't flash it since he has an 03 and I have an 02) and it was extremely helpful. It got me thinking, we need a B6 Database of Files, listed with mods, year and box (last letter on the ECU) to verify if you can flash the file on your car without problems.

EDIT: DONE

Here is the spreadsheet to initially enter your info:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlrVZO3RwT5_dE5xbzYtN25sZzcwM3pZWHoweFhpR EE&hl=en&authkey=CL_cm_AP

And here is the website. Once you update the spreadsheet I will make you a page with pictures and your latest file revision

https://sites.google.com/site/b6maestrosite/

[Hansi]

Great idea Clint [:)]

[gotboost]

This is nice. Is there a place ppl can post their logs?

[EBG 18T]

Hopefully one of these days tapp willl send me my base file so I can start working on this. I hate waiting.

[drjonez]

This is nice. Is there a place ppl can post their logs?

Should be an easy addition to Clint's site.

From past experience, this is where stuff gets done- online community collaboration. Great job Clint on starting the file site. Keep up good work and keep working together!

[SleeperAvant]

Clint, thanks for making those! I added my info, but don't know what ECU box I have...

[Sales@RAI]

Clint, thanks for making those! I added my info, but don't know what ECU box I have...

Steve, not to be a pain but it's extremely important if people want to use your file

[SleeperAvant]

Steve, not to be a pain but it's extremely important if people want to use your file

How do I find that out then?

[Sales@RAI]

This is nice. Is there a place ppl can post their logs?

didn't think about that, would people prefer to post them as spreadsheets? We can use additions to the Maestro spreadsheet

[AudiHere04]

wow i need to catch up on Maestro updates and the changes in general.
I guess i been lacking since i parked up the car for winter.

[Sales@RAI]

How do I find that out then?

Should have a sticker on the top of your ECU with the Audi part #. Last letter is the box

[Sales@RAI]

Steve your PM box is full, e-mail me links to a car pic and engine pic and your file

[email protected]

Also, I need the current status of your file

also, are you using the stock FPR? Cause you listed 3bar but ours is closer to 4

[SleeperAvant]

Steve your PM box is full, e-mail me links to a car pic and engine pic and your file

[email protected]

Oh sorry, cleared my PM box now. My ecu box is missing the sticker, it weathered away and fell off. Everyone knows how cracky the ecu decal can get.


also, are you using the stock FPR? Cause you listed 3bar but ours is closer to 4

I see, I'll amend it to 4bar then, since it is stock.

[Sales@RAI]

Oh sorry, cleared my PM box now. My ecu box is missing the sticker, it weathered away and fell off. Everyone knows how cracky the ecu decal can get.



I see, I'll amend it to 4bar then, since it is stock.

grr lol I changed it for you. Shoot me that E-mail when you get the chance

[dougyfresh]

Steve, not to be a pain but it's extremely important if people want to use your file


How do I find that out then?

1) look on the ECu itself (physically)

2) look at the P/N listed in the Engine Controller via VAG-Com

[gotboost]

I added my info also, I will get the ECU part number later

[Sales@RAI]

I added my info also, I will get the ECU part number later

E-mail me links to the engine/car pics, the status of your file, and the file itself

[SleeperAvant]

grr lol I changed it for you. Shoot me that E-mail when you get the chance

Will do.


1) look on the ECu itself (physically)

2) look at the P/N listed in the Engine Controller via VAG-Com

Thanks Doug

[gotboost]

E-mail me links to the engine/car pics, the status of your file, and the file itself

Email sent.

[Sales@RAI]

having an 02 sucks

[pape]

Should have a sticker on the top of your ECU with the Audi part #. Last letter is the box

do you know if the ecus are interchanchable between Boxes??

like if my 2002 uses a (8E0 909 518 "B") can I use a (8E0 909 518 "AC") same ecu number but difrent leters at the end. or must it be the same box leter to be able to work?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

do you know if the ecus are interchanchable between Boxes??

like if my 2002 uses a (8E0 909 518 "B") can I use a (8E0 909 518 "AC") same ecu number but difrent leters at the end. or must it be the same box leter to be able to work?

To the best of my knowledge it has never been tested, but you will have a gang of people tell you no you can't run a newer ecu in the 02 car or vice versa. The files are different so a file won't work but truthfully nobody that I know of has even tried putting an actual say 2003 ecu into a 2002 and saw if it worked. I do have a friend with a 2002 A4 with 830cc injectors and a 3071r, I could perhaps put my ecu into his car and see if it runs since I have an 830cc file on my "af" box 2003 ecu.

[Sales@RAI]

do you know if the ecus are interchanchable between Boxes??

like if my 2002 uses a (8E0 909 518 "B") can I use a (8E0 909 518 "AC") same ecu number but difrent leters at the end. or must it be the same box leter to be able to work?

Chris Tapp would be the guy to ask

[dougyfresh]

having an 02 sucks

You didn't know there was limited 2002 support via Maestro before you bought it? tisk tisk.

[Sales@RAI]

You didn't know there was limited 2002 support via Maestro before you bought it? tisk tisk.

Honestly its more than I ever needed, the updates are just slightly slower. Still better than anything else [up]

[20vturbo]

aright i will add myself when I get home

[EBG 18T]

coming from a custom file to this Tapp base file is eye openning. This base file needs alot work.

[MmmBoost]

coming from a custom file to this Tapp base file is eye openning. This base file needs alot work.

LOL. You're not kidding......

[EBG 18T]

LOL. You're not kidding......

It's crazy how unsmooth this base file is. But atleast i got the idle set up well. (thanks chris)

-Where is the quick tune item so i can flip between race & 93 oct files?
-Anyone else have errors trying to view logs? I can't veiw anything, the log veiwer just gives errors.

[pape]

Chris Tapp would be the guy to ask

is he a member here? I went to his site some time ago asking about this an 2002 compatibility but I never got a response.

were could I get his email?

Never mind I searched and found his mail and shop number.

Thanks

[MmmBoost]

It's crazy how unsmooth this base file is. But atleast i got the idle set up well. (thanks chris)

-Where is the quick tune item so i can flip between race & 93 oct files?
-Anyone else have errors trying to view logs? I can't veiw anything, the log veiwer just gives errors.

There are a lot of maps that look "thrown together." Far from refined......but it's nothing I can't handle.

You're quite welcome ;) It may still need some tweaking... What injectors ? What is your Injector Constant? EDIT: I looked up at the top and saw the G550's. I'm running an IC of 0.062291 (calculated out with the long formula not the short one) and it's PERFECT. my LTFT's from my last logging session were 0.1875% 0%


Switching between the race fuel timing map and the pump gas map are located in the "Quick Settings" in the flash software. Check the drop-down menus.


As for not being able to open log files, open the log file to be sure they the first line as all of the column headings. Log Viewer and the Tuning Suite get really grumpy when those aren't in the .csv file. Just copy them in from another log. When a log gets to 1mb it's split into another file......and the second file never has headings.

[Sales@RAI]

There are a lot of maps that look "thrown together." Far from refined......but it's nothing I can't handle.

You're quite welcome ;) It may still need some tweaking... What injectors ? What is your Injector Constant? EDIT: I looked up at the top and saw the G550's. I'm running an IC of 0.062291 (calculated out with the long formula not the short one) and it's PERFECT. my LTFT's from my last logging session were 0.1875% 0%


Switching between the race fuel timing map and the pump gas map are located in the "Quick Settings" in the flash software. Check the drop-down menus.


As for not being able to open log files, open the log file to be sure they the first line as all of the column headings. Log Viewer and the Tuning Suite get really grumpy when those aren't in the .csv file. Just copy them in from another log. When a log gets to 1mb it's split into another file......and the second file never has headings.

Quick question. I got Sam (7speed)s file and his injector constant is different than mine but I stole his voltage compensation map. he is also running Lucas 830cc. Should mine be different or should that work?

I would just flash it but the new flash software won't work with my 02

[MmmBoost]

Are you running the same fuel pressure setup?

[Sales@RAI]

Are you running the same fuel pressure setup?

at idle yes, with boost no. Pretty sure he has a static FPR

[MmmBoost]

at idle yes, with boost no. Pretty sure he has a static FPR

at idle i would think you should be fine. one thing i'm concerned about though is that the B6 ecu compensates for the manifolds pressure on the fuel injectors due to the lack of a rising rate FPR. There is a calculation in the ECU that comes up with a correction factor.....this may cause your fueling to do some funny things when you hit boost.


As far as BVG goes, you should be alright using Sam's numbers since the largest effect in fueling will be idle and low load so your FPR should be screwing things around.

[Sales@RAI]

well whatever I'm just trying to get idle/part throttle perfect

[20vturbo]

I think I want alex liu's file...It's on 850's i thing and it's the only one that was done on a dyno by a tapp dealer in vanc

[Sales@RAI]

I think I want alex liu's file...It's on 850's i thing and it's the only one that was done on a dyno by a tapp dealer in vanc

me too we almost had identical setups.

[7speed]

I would like Alex's file also. I wonder if we can get him to email us a copy.

[Sales@RAI]

I would like Alex's file also. I wonder if we can get him to email us a copy.

Sam, add your car to my list and E-mail me the requested info

[gotboost]

Does anyone's logger disconnect when they hit a huge bump? Its annoying as hell, I have to disconnect my battery to get it to connect again.

[SleeperAvant]

That's odd, doesn't happen to me.

[EBG 18T]

Genesis 550s + the right Voltage Compensation = WIN. My idle is nearly perfect. O2 correction at idle is +/-4. LTFT at idle is 0

My idle is 0 but my ltft is. -13.7

Once I get this figured out I can move onto other factors.

[MmmBoost]

public service announcement

If you are trying to reset an entire map to zero corrections.........DO NOT set the entire map equal to "1" You must set it to at least 1.0001. Setting maps to 1.0000 will disable that map in the calculations and may have a very negative consequences.

[MmmBoost]

My idle is 0 but my ltft is. -13.7

Once I get this figured out I can move onto other factors.


See if you can pinpoint where you're getting the majority of your corrections. There may be some situation that is skewing the LTFT

[7speed]

Clint I'm using Siemens 830cc injectors. I'll add the info to the page.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I would like Alex's file also. I wonder if we can get him to email us a copy.

I tried to buy his ecu since he was parting out his whole car but that guy is about worthless to get something from. He responds to emails 3 days later then tells you nothing you wanted to know pretty much. Then finally he never responded again after I wrote back a 3rd time and it is crazy because I was interested at the time in buying multiple things from him totaling to over $1000 which I thought was the whole point of him listing his car parts for sale?

Oh and Sam, it would do you no good having his file since he has a rising rate fuel pressure system so it would all be different beyond just being different from other parts different in his car (aftermarket cams to your stock ones, much higher flowing turbo, tube manifold, etc etc).

[Wet0willy01]

I tried to buy his ecu since he was parting out his whole car but that guy is about worthless to get something from. He responds to emails 3 days later then tells you nothing you wanted to know pretty much. Then finally he never responded again after I wrote back a 3rd time and it is crazy because I was interested at the time in buying multiple things from him totaling to over $1000 which I thought was the whole point of him listing his car parts for sale).

Yeah tell me about it. I gave up.

[7speed]

Oh yeah I forgot that he was rising rate. We still need to have a database of the files though, it would be very helpful.

[20vturbo]

I sent him a mess on facebook, the thing is that I don't think he has maestro, he was tuned in vanc by a tapp dealer that prob used maestro to tune, but he has no wire..I think was the same dealer that tunes podi's car, he should know better

[20vturbo]

I showed him how to do the fueling, I think he has an aftermarket fpr but I am not sure if the vacuum port is connected...I have an aftermarket fpr too but I am not running it in rising rate, if I put the vacuum line it goes apeshit.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

That is correct sorta. He had a regular flash that didn't work, he then got a spare ecu with Maestro installed on it but didn't get the cable/dongle since that shop tuned it for him. He said Tapp told him he could buy the dongal for a few hundred dollars but he didn't have it. I asked him if he could buy it from Tapp and then sell me everything, pretty much I would have saved like $100 and had a really good file to start from to tune my car but after that he never wrote back.

[gotboost]

What kind of MBC's are you guys using? I'm using a Hallman Pro and getting about a 3psi spike before it settles at my desired boost, is that normal?

[Sales@RAI]

Clint I'm using Siemens 830cc injectors. I'll add the info to the page.

Right, your injector constant is different than mine though. I guess because you're a 1.8 and I'm a 2L

[EBG 18T]

See if you can pinpoint where you're getting the majority of your corrections. There may be some situation that is skewing the LTFT

adjusted the BVC today. got the 032 values to 0.1 and -2.3 so i am happy with that for a starting point.

Also adjusted the accelerator pedal map to smooth things out. Out of the box this base file was on/off. More progressive pedal feel now, still needs adjustment but much more driveable.

I am very suprized that people actually run this base file as a real 'tune' and think it is good.

[SleeperAvant]

what kind of mbc's are you guys using? I'm using a hallman pro and getting about a 3psi spike before it settles at my desired boost, is that normal?

n75 ftw imo. i've made two boost files, low and high, my low map spikes at 23psi and holds 20, the high spikes 28psi and holds 25psi. The main fuel maps are also adjusted to account for different levels.

[EBG 18T]

Ok. So I guess I didn't do as well as I wanted. My ltft after 90 miles is now -10.3. Need to back in and do more adjustments.

[Sales@RAI]

Ok this sucks majorly. I just cannot get this thing to idle right unless my injector constant is ~.06 any time I try to do anything else it DUMPS fuel and bogs out. I pulled a ton of fuel in voltage compensation too

[RONDAL]

subscribing in to this, going to start tuning my b5 s4 this week, and a ton of good info in here.


could be a stupid question....but does tuning in extremely low ambient temps have a negative effect. Even if car is warmed up?

[drjonez]

...could be a stupid question....but does tuning in extremely low ambient temps have a negative effect. Even if car is warmed up?

No real "negative" effects, but you'll have to play with intake air temp correction come warmer weather. The best thing to do is get a good base tune done around standard temp/pressure....then work on the corrections.

[HTA A4]

I'll be getting Maestro within the next couple weeks. Will need some help to get started but after that, it seems like most (intelligent) people get the hang of it very quickly.

[Dan[FN]6262]

what?! after you paid for the Eurocode/Revo upgrayedd to the super secret stage 50 jet engine tune?!?!?!

[HTA A4]

Hell yeah son! Once I get down to Florida, I would like to compare them. Since I'm keeping the car now, might as well turn it into a hobby.

[Hansi]

Kinda surprised there's not more cars/files on the site..

Only 2 files so far?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Tapp needs to make a base file for rising rate fuel system on the B6.

[Dan[FN]6262]

he told me that having a rising rate fuel system would make no difference to the file, because I told him that I eventually wanted to change that.


Tyler has a rising rate fuel system, and he and Chris (Bananas) got it running really good.

[7speed]

I'll be getting Maestro within the next couple weeks. Will need some help to get started but after that, it seems like most (intelligent) people get the hang of it very quickly.

smh

[MmmBoost]

5857;6089296']he told me that having a rising rate fuel system would make no difference to the file, because I told him that I eventually wanted to change that.


I don't believe this for a second.

Notice on this portion of the Injector Constant calculation that there is a correction factor FRLFSDP for returnless and pressure referenced systems. The equations are different.

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg

There is a map to adjust the correction factor delta map, we just don't have access to it.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I don't believe this for a second.

Notice on this portion of the Injector Constant calculation that there is a correction factor FRLFSDP for returnless and pressure referenced systems. The equations are different.

There is a map to adjust the correction factor delta map, we just don't have access to it.



I didn't say that I believed it, I just said what Chris Tapp told me on the phone. I honestly just don't think he wanted bothered with it, so he just told me that it wouldn't matter.

[MmmBoost]

5857;6089415']I didn't say that I believed it, I just said what Chris Tapp told me on the phone. I honestly just don't think he wanted bothered with it, so he just told me that it wouldn't matter.

I've been asking Tapp a lot of pointed questions lately as I dig more and more into ME7, and he never answers with straight answers. It's frustrating. Half the time he doesn't even bother answering most of the questions I ask in an email.

I'm ready to ditch Maestro and go with WinOLS and Tunerpro so i can access EVERYTHING i feel i need to

[EBG 18T]

I've been asking Tapp a lot of pointed questions lately as I dig more and more into ME7, and he never answers with straight answers. It's frustrating.

I'm ready to ditch Maestro and go with WinOLS and Tunerpro so i can access EVERYTHING i feel i need to

Based on your last email I was waiting to hear you say that....

[A4 TSCHUSS]

5857;6089296']he told me that having a rising rate fuel system would make no difference to the file, because I told him that I eventually wanted to change that.


Tyler has a rising rate fuel system, and he and Chris (Bananas) got it running really good.

Like said above there is no way it could be the same and Bananas played hell getting Tyler's car to run right if I remember correctly.

[Dan[FN]6262]

Like said above there is no way it could be the same and Bananas played hell getting Tyler's car to run right if I remember correctly.

and like above (post #155) I agreed. I was just stating what Tapp told me on the phone

[RONDAL]

Chris i shot you a PM on here.
Flip me one back with your details and we can talk.

I'm assuming tuning the b5 s4 and the b6 A4 shouldn't be too different, I mean the values wont be the same and we cant share maps but I could certainly use some help understanding how to do all of the adjustments starting out.

I've got to change my MAF settings, which I see there is a spreadsheet for but for some reason I cant download, and scale for new injectors.


Dumb question;
When looking at this screen:

http://www.eurodyne.ca/How%20Tos/MaestroHowTo/1InjectorWizard.jpg

Old injector size would be the size set out in the BASE MAP correct? ie. 630cc injectors. Is the value you enter there the value in cc or lb/hr?
The new injector size would be my new Bosch EV14 72lb injectors in whatever unit of measurement is supposed to be used there.
If I havent changed my FPR and only have added a new pump but otherwise kept everything else in the fuel system stock, the fuel pressure should remain constant correct?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Your fuel pressure will be the same base pressure as before but you have a rising rate fuel system (the B6 A4 does not) like was mentioined in the last few posts above so there will be differences there.

[MmmBoost]

Chris i shot you a PM on here.
Flip me one back with your details and we can talk.

I'm assuming tuning the b5 s4 and the b6 A4 shouldn't be too different, I mean the values wont be the same and we cant share maps but I could certainly use some help understanding how to do all of the adjustments starting out.

I've got to change my MAF settings, which I see there is a spreadsheet for but for some reason I cant download, and scale for new injectors.


Dumb question;
When looking at this screen:

http://www.eurodyne.ca/How%20Tos/MaestroHowTo/1InjectorWizard.jpg

Old injector size would be the size set out in the BASE MAP correct? ie. 630cc injectors. Is the value you enter there the value in cc or lb/hr?
The new injector size would be my new Bosch EV14 72lb injectors in whatever unit of measurement is supposed to be used there.
If I havent changed my FPR and only have added a new pump but otherwise kept everything else in the fuel system stock, the fuel pressure should remain constant correct?

Saw the PM, haven't had a chance to write back in detail. I'll get to it this evening.

You don't need to download the spreadsheet, just make a copy of it and use it on Google Docs. Google docs will become your new best friend when you start logging.


For injector constant, I don't trust that wizard at all. You can use it if you want, but I have calculated my own constant and my LTFT are within +/- 1%

[RONDAL]

good to know.

yeah flip me a note and we can either chat via IM or text.

Any formula or spreadsheet you have been using for injector constants?

[MmmBoost]

good to know.

yeah flip me a note and we can either chat via IM or text.

Any formula or spreadsheet you have been using for injector constants?


Injector Constant? or Battery Compensation?

for injector constant, see post #73

For BVC, use the injector dynamics ID725 chart as a starter to get the curve shape right.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID725SumData.bmp


Then use your LTFT to figure out what you need to add or subtract from the whole table.

[Hansi]

I've been asking Tapp a lot of pointed questions lately as I dig more and more into ME7, and he never answers with straight answers. It's frustrating. Half the time he doesn't even bother answering most of the questions I ask in an email.

I'm ready to ditch Maestro and go with WinOLS and Tunerpro so i can access EVERYTHING i feel i need to

Maybe it's possible for Eurodyne to unlock all maps, but have a basic view containing the maps available now, and an advanced view with all maps? Something like that?
And possibly move maps from advanced to basic view as we find out they are of use?

[MmmBoost]

Maybe it's possible for Eurodyne to unlock all maps, but have a basic view containing the maps available now, and an advanced view with all maps? Something like that?
And possibly move maps from advanced to basic view as we find out they are of use?

That sounds excellent.......but good luck trying to get Tapp to make it happen.

The last time I asked him a question about adding a map he gave me a "I've already given you access to everything you should need" answer.

[RONDAL]

Chris,
i've got 2 sets of o2 sensors, pre and post cat. I'm now running 034 3" DP's which dont have cats. The new o2 bungs are so weirdly positioned that the o2 sensors hang down super low when installed. I'd like to remove them and then code them out. I believe eurodyne allows me this freedome but i have yet to uncover any literature that explains how to do something like this.

Any ideas?

[RONDAL]

Injector Constant? or Battery Compensation?

for injector constant, see post #73

For BVC, use the injector dynamics ID725 chart as a starter to get the curve shape right.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID725SumData.bmp


Then use your LTFT to figure out what you need to add or subtract from the whole table.


post #73 looks very informative, however without understanding the acronyms i dont know what exactly i am inputting and calculating

[MmmBoost]

Chris,
i've got 2 sets of o2 sensors, pre and post cat. I'm now running 034 3" DP's which dont have cats. The new o2 bungs are so weirdly positioned that the o2 sensors hang down super low when installed. I'd like to remove them and then code them out. I believe eurodyne allows me this freedome but i have yet to uncover any literature that explains how to do something like this.

Any ideas?

You can simple turn off Rear 02 faults in the Diagnosis section of Maestro.


post #73 looks very informative, however without understanding the acronyms i dont know what exactly i am inputting and calculating


did you actually read the post? or just look at the photo? There is an explanation AND and an example

[RONDAL]

I saw the example, though I think a few of the variables are different between what you used (b6 a4) and what i would need (b5 s4).
Things like cylinder displacement etc.

Seems I need a new laptop too. The current one I got is a piece of crap dell, but its horribly slow. The battery sucks, and its fine if i needed to log like once or twice but seeing as this is going to be somewhat of a full time affair for a while i should likely search kijiji for something a little more stable.

When i say old school dell, i mean like 2004 old school. Its a brick.

[RONDAL]

do issues with running netbooks like the Acer Aspire or EEEpc still exist? i know there were viewing errors when logging before.
Debating picking one of these up off CL or kijiji tonite but dont want to waste my time if they are going to be a pain to tune on.

[613B6]

no issues tapp fixed netbook viewing along time ago. I only use my netbook for tuning and logging, work great.

[EBG 18T]

do issues with running netbooks like the Acer Aspire or EEEpc still exist? i know there were viewing errors when logging before.
Debating picking one of these up off CL or kijiji tonite but dont want to waste my time if they are going to be a pain to tune on.

I still find my 13" laptop screen small for doing the tuning. I wish my screen was a little bigger so i didn;t have to keep scrolling.

[Hansi]

Is anyone using the Genesis 415cc injectors? If so, what injector constant do you use?

According to the calculation in post #73, it should be:

415cc/min x 0.684g/cc = 283.86g/min

KRKTE = 50.2624*(1.781/4)/283.86 = 0.0788393348833932

Does that sound about right?

[MmmBoost]

KRKTE = 0.0788393348833932

Does that sound about right?

Looks about right. What are you running the 415's on? Those are fairly small.

[Hansi]

Looks about right. What are you running the 415's on? Those are fairly small.

Thanks [:)]

Running them on a GT28RS.. I plan on upgrading to the Genesis 550s when I have tried this program a little and have some more money. Have some Siemens 630s here, but from what I read the Genesis 550s are a better choice(?).

What about BVC? Same procedure as for the 550s? (You said earlier "for BVC on the Genesis 550's I recommend using any of the Bosch Voltage Compensation default tables from the Injector Wizard. Then lower the whole table by about .1 ms to start.")

[dougyfresh]

I don't believe this for a second.

Notice on this portion of the Injector Constant calculation that there is a correction factor FRLFSDP for returnless and pressure referenced systems. The equations are different.

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg

There is a map to adjust the correction factor delta map, we just don't have access to it.

I like how you gray out the document ID

[MmmBoost]

Thanks [:)]

Running them on a GT28RS.. I plan on upgrading to the Genesis 550s when I have tried this program a little and have some more money. Have some Siemens 630s here, but from what I read the Genesis 550s are a better choice(?).

What about BVC? Same procedure as for the 550s? (You said earlier "for BVC on the Genesis 550's I recommend using any of the Bosch Voltage Compensation default tables from the Injector Wizard. Then lower the whole table by about .1 ms to start.")

I am loving my G550's so far. The engine seems to run much smoother on them compared to the Siemens 630's.

BVC should be a similar as long as the injectors are Bosch-based.


I like how you gray out the document ID

I didn't do that, I came across this screen shot on another tuning forum.

[RONDAL]

Got car up and running last night.

For some reason i cant enter the exact injector constant that I calculate. I have to settle for something that eurodyne deems as "close"? Is this normal?

Never really got into boost, i dont know if eurodyne is the reason my car isn't able to talk with my ABS module. Otherwise everything else is working.
Still very very rich. I revved the car up after 60 minutes of break in driving just to hear exhaust and it looks like it flooded the engine and killed the spark. Car wont turn over now so I need to pull plugs and clean them off and retry.

[MmmBoost]

Got car up and running last night.

For some reason i cant enter the exact injector constant that I calculate. I have to settle for something that eurodyne deems as "close"? Is this normal?

Never really got into boost, i dont know if eurodyne is the reason my car isn't able to talk with my ABS module. Otherwise everything else is working.
Still very very rich. I revved the car up after 60 minutes of break in driving just to hear exhaust and it looks like it flooded the engine and killed the spark. Car wont turn over now so I need to pull plugs and clean them off and retry.

The reason the value you put in might get changed is because the ECU uses a HEX format, so all the numbers you're seeing in the tables are just a conversion from HEX into numbers that mean something to us. So the number you might actually want may not translate exactly to a hex value, so it changes slightly. Don't worry about it, the value should be close enough.


I wonder why you're so rich. MAF scaled properly? Are you using the stock throttle body?

[HTA A4]

The new Maestro doesn't support 02s WTF I was gonna tune tonight. Sent Chris an E-mail I'm sure he'll have it ironed out in the morning.

Anyway, 7Speed gave me his file to look at (can't flash it since he has an 03 and I have an 02) and it was extremely helpful. It got me thinking, we need a B6 Database of Files, listed with mods, year and box (last letter on the ECU) to verify if you can flash the file on your car without problems.

EDIT: DONE

Here is the spreadsheet to initially enter your info:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlrVZO3RwT5_dE5xbzYtN25sZzcwM3pZWHoweFhpR EE&hl=en&authkey=CL_cm_AP

And here is the website. Once you update the spreadsheet I will make you a page with pictures and your latest file revision

https://sites.google.com/site/b6maestrosite/

Great idea Clint! Too bad I'm a month late on it

[Hansi]

Finally got my car running with Maestro.. My logs are from idle and crusing, a bit skeptic to putting the car under load without knowing if its running OK. Can some of you gurus take a look and give me some advice how to proceed please [:)]

https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?authkey=CI2rr-YC&hl=en&key=tWyinpnQ3yQde8GS_phGt3A&hl=en&authkey=CI2rr-YC
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhKBvtawlPaidFJnYU1JTE04bkR1UkVoYlZ3OGRDY Xc&authkey=CIvOsOEL&hl=en

Havent really changed anything from the base map other than injector constant to 0.0788393348833932 and BVC similar to EBG 18T. I am running the smaller 415cc (430?) Genesis injectors, but I figured the BVC would be similar to the 550s?

Not sure where to start, but from what I understand IC and BVC is the first thing to get correct before moving on. So, do they look about right in these logs?

[SleeperAvant]

Finally got my car running with Maestro.. My logs are from idle and crusing, a bit skeptic to putting the car under load without knowing if its running OK. Can some of you gurus take a look and give me some advice how to proceed please [:)]

https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?authkey=CI2rr-YC&hl=en&key=tWyinpnQ3yQde8GS_phGt3A&hl=en&authkey=CI2rr-YC
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhKBvtawlPaidFJnYU1JTE04bkR1UkVoYlZ3OGRDY Xc&authkey=CIvOsOEL&hl=en

Havent really changed anything from the base map other than injector constant to 0.0788393348833932 and BVC similar to EBG 18T. I am running the smaller 415cc (430?) Genesis injectors, but I figured the BVC would be similar to the 550s?

Not sure where to start, but from what I understand IC and BVC is the first thing to get correct before moving on. So, do they look about right in these logs?

Looks fine so far. You don't really know how it runs until you give it full engine load. You might get some timing pull under load as in your second link you had a tad with a bit of throttle inputs. What boost have you set it to? What about your main fueling correction map?

[Hansi]

Cool [:)]

Maximum VE
https://doc-14-bg-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/secure/dop64kab2eg0l3piqful5s8mrqj3p4fh/e4544verg61u3d6nce78p0q4qbrfprge/1296842400000/03959994885529055002/03959994885529055002/0BxKBvtawlPaiYTlhMDMzMWQtNDc5NS00OTQ1LWE5YjAtZjkyZ DJhYjU5OTY2?authkey=CPWDhpgG&nonce=eu4uvq2u5mtm2&user=03959994885529055002&hash=2b4akhapg0rvrvn7mnvve0i367g0dng9


Boost PID
https://doc-0g-bg-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/secure/dop64kab2eg0l3piqful5s8mrqj3p4fh/g9mivlglvam5njv9o49crj3q3n434gmv/1296842400000/03959994885529055002/03959994885529055002/0BxKBvtawlPaiOTQ3NGJhZmQtMDRjOC00ZjkzLTgxMDYtMzVlY TJmOTU0Njdk?authkey=CI6Xi-EL&nonce=kj1lrd750frks&user=03959994885529055002&hash=5kjbuledc5i61cmc2qvgthpam9mnstjh

Main fuel correction part 1
https://doc-0c-bg-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/secure/dop64kab2eg0l3piqful5s8mrqj3p4fh/5igohhlfklmtd2uf3tb2t49us4i0sgr2/1296842400000/03959994885529055002/03959994885529055002/0BxKBvtawlPaiZWUwNjRlZWQtZmMyZC00MGRiLTg2OTUtMDBiZ jEyMDFkMTAz?authkey=CKSTi6YF&nonce=u285sqocvebok&user=03959994885529055002&hash=6vl7cr7avul7uhklhl73bpi9ksfatpmt

Main fuel correction part 2
https://doc-14-bg-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/secure/dop64kab2eg0l3piqful5s8mrqj3p4fh/hlv8gcg80gcu8l9cmgu8ql8iqu24248c/1296842400000/03959994885529055002/03959994885529055002/0BxKBvtawlPaiNzJlMTYwNmUtNDFkZi00Njg3LWFmNzItZGQyO DdmMmM4NDE4?authkey=CMiA_JwC&nonce=47nq8iummmusk&user=03959994885529055002&hash=peshpm1jmcplvp4u2upft76v280nb3i3

This is all from the base file that was sent me BTW, I didn't change anything. Not really sure how to know what to change here either, hehe.. Have to read some more I think.

[bananas]

I see no O2 correction in your log... that's not normal for a b6

[Hansi]

I see no O2 correction in your log... that's not normal for a b6

Hmm, OK.. What might be the reason for that? I have read not connecting the cam chain tensioner could cause that, but mine is connected (and VVT).. Something else?

[MmmBoost]

Some new information has just come to light regarding calculating injector constants.


For all of you using this method......... please see post #73 for the changes.

Post #73 (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402750-The-Great-Maestro-7-Tuning-Suite-Thread?p=6040930&viewfull=1#post6040930)


When calculating injector constant, you must use the Qstat value at your base fuel pressure.

[bananas]

Hmm, OK.. What might be the reason for that? I have read not connecting the cam chain tensioner could cause that, but mine is connected (and VVT).. Something else?

Not sure. Are you missing ANY sensors?

[Hansi]

Not sure. Are you missing ANY sensors?

Hmm.. Unplugged MAF, and have done the pcv system cleanup or what it's called, but the sensors are mostly left plugged in, not the SAI system though, but I didnt think that was neccessary for O2 correction?

Does anyone know which sensors O2 correction needs to work? I can make a new thread about this if people think it's OT, but I guess it is somewhat related to Maestro?

[SleeperAvant]

O2 correction is done by using the O2 sensors, both primary and secondary widebands. Do you have a CEL or any codes for a bad O2 sensor?

[Hansi]

Didn't have any CELs, but changed my O2 sensors and guess what, now O2 correction is working [:)]

I've changed my IC according to new info in post #73, and landed on 0,057066844, www.usrt.com claim the injectors I have are 430cc, so I used that for calculating.

Made a log from idle and reving, doesn't look too good now, hehe..
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhKBvtawlPaidFphNkhFOVRBbHNBNUtmQW9rY0hjT 0E&hl=en&authkey=CJa_j-AF#gid=0

And a small driving log
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhKBvtawlPaidDd6MXR1U290QlptLWYyVXhWMTRad Wc&hl=en&authkey=CLDwgqUF#gid=0

[7speed]

Thats much better cause there is no way in hell you should have 0 correction.

[Hansi]

Hehe, yeah, guess you're right..

I love this program [:)]
How do I adjust injector constant correctly?
From what I understand adjusting that is the main factor before doing anything else?

I have done the calculation, but I seem to be getting positive O2 corrections for a while, until the ECU adapts?

This is what I'm thinking how to do it:
1) Adjust injector constant according to calculations in post #73
2) Drive for a bit
3) Look at block 032, and adjust according to LTFT

Can it be done this way?


What about the next logical step from what I understand, the BVC?
I can not find any injector data from Genesis..

[EBG 18T]

Hansi- the calculation that mmmboost listed is the best way to calculate the injector constanst. The next step is getting the bvc setup right. This one took me several tries to get it tweaked right. The genesis injectors are bosch motorsports injectors so you can start with a bosch bvc map and start from there.

[Hansi]

Hansi- the calculation that mmmboost listed is the best way to calculate the injector constanst. The next step is getting the bvc setup right. This one took me several tries to get it tweaked right. The genesis injectors are bosch motorsports injectors so you can start with a bosch bvc map and start from there.

OK, thank you.
This is found in the injector wizard, correct? Bosch 910cc?

Won't changing the BVC also change the injector constant? Not change the injector constant itself, but change how the injector behaves, thus changing AFR?

I tried a bit of driving just now, and it seemed when I changed BVC, LTFT also changed for partial throttle? (not just idle, which is what I got the impression BVC editing was mainly used for?)

[EBG 18T]

OK, thank you.
This is found in the injector wizard, correct? Bosch 910cc?

Won't changing the BVC also change the injector constant? Not change the injector constant itself, but change how the injector behaves, thus changing AFR?

Do not use the injector wizard... do the long calculation and take a look at justin's thread and look at the bvc I posted there. The injector wizard from my trial and e rror never worked worth a damn. The method mmmboost suggested to me for the 8c was spot on. If you look at my bvc in justins post that will give you an idea. Yours will be diferent but you can see how much differnt the injector wizard results vary from the ones we do to actually get the car working. Most of us have 30+ revisisions to get things working right.

[Hansi]

Do not use the injector wizard... do the long calculation and take a look at justin's thread and look at the bvc I posted there. The injector wizard from my trial and e rror never worked worth a damn. The method mmmboost suggested to me for the 8c was spot on. If you look at my bvc in justins post that will give you an idea. Yours will be diferent but you can see how much differnt the injector wizard results vary from the ones we do to actually get the car working. Most of us have 30+ revisisions to get things working right.

OK.. I haven't used the injector wizard either, calculated the IC using post #73 in this thread, but then I got positive O2 corrections when driving. The way I corrected those was to increase the IC, but that is not the best way to do it?

The best way is to set the IC after the calculation, then correct the BVC to adjust O2 corrections for both idle and driving?

I have about 10 revisions already, thought I was getting the hang of it, about 0 LTFT corrections when driving after correcting the IC according to LTFT O2 corrections, but when I started messing with BVC to try to change idle that also changed cruising LTFTs? It seemed that way anyway..

[MmmBoost]

OK.. I haven't used the injector wizard either, calculated the IC using post #73 in this thread, but then I got positive O2 corrections when driving. The way I corrected those was to increase the IC, but that is not the best way to do it?

The best way is to set the IC after the calculation, then correct the BVC to adjust O2 corrections for both idle and driving?

I have about 10 revisions already, thought I was getting the hang of it, about 0 LTFT corrections when driving after correcting the IC according to LTFT O2 corrections, but when I started messing with BVC to try to change idle that also changed cruising LTFTs? It seemed that way anyway..


Hansi, the voltage/latency table will affect ALL areas of your fueling, but the most noticeable place will be locations with low pulsewidths.

Check out post #62 where I explain why. Post 62 (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402750-The-Great-Maestro-7-Tuning-Suite-Thread?p=6040304&viewfull=1#post6040304)


Here is a great little read on OBD Fuel Trims. (http://chrispaltzat.com/docs/OBD_Fuel_Trim.pdf) It will give you a better understanding of how these work.

[Hansi]

Hansi, the voltage/latency table will affect ALL areas of your fueling, but the most noticeable place will be locations with low pulsewidths.

Check out post #62 where I explain why. Post 62 (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402750-The-Great-Maestro-7-Tuning-Suite-Thread?p=6040304&viewfull=1#post6040304)


Here is a great little read on OBD Fuel Trims. (http://chrispaltzat.com/docs/OBD_Fuel_Trim.pdf) It will give you a better understanding of how these work.

Thank you..

The voltage/latency should be as good as equal for a given injector, say the ID725?
If you have this flow chart:
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID725SumData.gif
That's pretty much all you need? Dead time=BVC milliseconds/1000? Then it's just looking at that picture (~55 psi) and copying to the BVC table?

So, if we had a flow chart for the Genesis 550s similar to that of the ID725s we wouldnt have to do this trial and error for BVC for that injector?
I've noticed that even though you and EBG 18T both have the same injectors, your BVC tables arent very much alike? At least before, maybe you have changed them..

But from my understanding, the BVC should be as good as alike for the same injector type? (although very small variations in injectors could occur)

Am I thinking correctly, or?

[MmmBoost]

Thank you..

So, if we had a flow chart for the Genesis 550s similar to that of the ID725s we wouldnt have to do this trial and error for BVC for that injector?
I've noticed that even though you and EBG 18T both have the same injectors, your BVC tables arent very much alike? At least before, maybe you have changed them..

But from my understanding, the BVC should be as good as alike for the same injector type? (although very small variations in injectors could occur)

Am I thinking correctly, or?



Hansi, your injectors are very close in size to the TT injectors. You might even want to use the BVC values from the TT injectors from the wizard. The TT225 injectors are EV12's I believe so they should very very close to values you need rather than the ID725's which are much larger.

In a perfect world, everyone running the same injectors should have the same Voltage/Latency values, but every car is different. Maybe one car has slightly higher resistance in the fuel injector harness which causes them to respond slower? What if another car has little different fuel pressure at the rail? If there is one thing I have learned from working engineering its that nothing is ever the same.


.....cars are like women, every one one is different. The special move that works on one girl could get you a punch to the face from another.

[EBG 18T]

I've noticed that even though you and EBG 18T both have the same injectors, your BVC tables arent very much alike? At least before, maybe you have changed them..

But from my understanding, the BVC should be as good as alike for the same injector type? (although very small variations in injectors could occur)

Am I thinking correctly, or?

Altitude, fuel quality, motor build differences, injector variance, electrical system differnces all can effect this. This has been a learning experience for me thru this process. I don't know how many hundreds of pages I have read now. But I feel alot better now when it comes to tuning and motors.

[Hansi]

Hehe.. I see your point [:)]

However, I think that chart would be a perfect starting point..

I did load the TT BVC, worked OK, lowered it a little at a time and could feel the car responding better for every adjustment, great feeling.. Changing to the 550 Genesis probably next week though, so don't think I'll put much more effort into tuning the 415s..

[HTA A4]

I'm having problems understanding how to go about scaling my MAF. I read the article on the Eurodyne forums that bananas posted but I'm unsure what to edit exactly. Should I just unplug it or is it that much more beneficial to have it?

[7speed]

Does one of you guys have one of the older versions of M7 saved on your hard drive ? I want to revert back to one of the older versions.

[Hansi]

For those of you running Genesis 550 injectors, I have got hold of a datasheet, will post later today.

I got it from Scott at www.usrallyteam.com who offers fantastic customer service and I would reccommend to everyone.

[MmmBoost]

For those of you running Genesis 550 injectors, I have got hold of a datasheet, will post later today.

I got it from Scott at www.usrallyteam.com who offers fantastic customer service and I would reccommend to everyone.

That's great! Yeah I've talked to Scott before, and they have excellent service. Definitely a great company with a great products.

[Hansi]

Here's the link [:)]
Couldn't get it working as a picture here..

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/onQc9e0W96ased9lZoF5gw?feat=directlink

[MmmBoost]

lol. That's the Ford Motorsports data sheet from the Bosch EV14's

same injectors though, and good data.

[Hansi]

Really? Hehe..

Well, anyways, good starting point I guess [:)]

[MmmBoost]

They're the same injectors. G550's are based on EV14 cores

[MmmBoost]

For those of you running boost referenced fuel pressure regulators, I asked to have a map added that should make your life WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

FRLFSDP - injection time scaling factor based on predicted vacuum relative to outside pressure
http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/FRLFSDP.jpg

There is a codeword to disable this, but I don't think we're going to get access to that. So you should be able to use the bottom equation to make your FPR work for you without having to do MASSIVE adjustments in other maps.

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg


Here is the lower part that isn't cut off.
http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/FRLFSDP screenshot.jpg

[Hansi]

I'm having problems understanding how to go about scaling my MAF. I read the article on the Eurodyne forums that bananas posted but I'm unsure what to edit exactly. Should I just unplug it or is it that much more beneficial to have it?

x2

I have a 73mm ID custom, stock sensor MAF I'd like to use, but I dont quite understand the spreadsheet..

[MmmBoost]

Put in your MAF ID and select the reference curve from your MAF sensor and the original size of the housing for that sensor.

ie. 73mm ID. Ref Curve #1 AWP. Ref size 60mm. Ref offset 200 kh/hr.

The spreadsheet will suggest how much you need to scale it to and what you need to change the offset to in order to most closely match the expected readout of the MAF sensor in that size of housing.

Scale Start 148.03% of original size
Scale End 148.03% of original size
New Offset 296.06 kh/hr


So then you go into Maestro in the Flowmeter table, select your MAF AWP. Then scale it by 48.03% and 48.03%. Then go in and change the Flowmeter Offset to 296.06.

[Hansi]

Scale Start 148.03%
Scale End 148.03%
New Offset 296.06 kh/hr


So then you go into Maestro in the Flowmeter table, select your MAF AWP. Then scale it by 48.03% and 48.03%. Then go in and change the Flowmeter Offset to 296.06.

Scale it by 48,03%? Or 148,03%?

That's all there is to it, huh.. Thank you once again [:)]

[MmmBoost]

48.03%

All of the values that you should put into Maestro are on the far right hand side of the scaling spreadsheet. Bananas hooked you up :)

[dga4]

New Maestro user here!! 7speed and I hooked up Maestro this weekend with my 830cc tune and its awesome. Got a question though...

How do I alter how much boost i run, right now it only boosts to 14psi and i know i can run alot more..

[Hansi]

If you're running the N75 I believe it's the Maximum VE map mainly.. Maybe also the Boost PID map?

I'm not sure about this though, wait until the experts chime in [:)]

[EBG 18T]

C
New Maestro user here!! 7speed and I hooked up Maestro this weekend with my 830cc tune and its awesome. Got a question though...

How do I alter how much boost i run, right now it only boosts to 14psi and i know i can run alot more..

Do you want just more boost? Or do you want more fueling and timing too?

[Hansi]

What happened to revision history for Maestro and EurodyneFlash updates BTW? I have tried registering on the Eurodyne forum to ask, but they haven't approved my account yet..

[dga4]

Right out of the Bosch ME7 documentation...... for those of you that don't know, KRKTE A.K.A. Injector Constant

n-Heptane = 0.684g/cc

So 630cc/min x 0.684g/cc = 430.92g/min <===== this needs to be calculated for operating pressure.

Instead it should be: 630 x sqrt(58/43.5) = 727.5cc/min

727.5 x 0.684 = 497.58 g/min

KRKTE = 50.2624*(1.781/4)/479.58 = 0.044976

EDIT: I have found out that Qstat at system operating pressure must be used in this calculation. Qstat is normally given at injectors tested at 3-bar. The AMB returnless system is 4 bar.

I'm sorry but I cannot figure out where you got the red numbers from..where did you get these?

Also what is LTFT?

[dga4]

C

Do you want just more boost? Or do you want more fueling and timing too?

I need all 3 but I THINK i know how to change the fueling and timing and have been playing around with it. But i can't figure out how to raise the boost

[MmmBoost]

I'm sorry but I cannot figure out where you got the red numbers from..where did you get these?

Also what is LTFT?


58 = your fuel pressure (if it's a B6 A4)
43.5 = the pressure your injectors are flow rated at


1.781 = 1.781 L = 1781 cc which is the actual size of your engine.
4 = 4 cylinders


LTFT = Long Term Fuel Trims. (block 032)

[dga4]

Thank you

[Hansi]

I don't know if you guys have seen this, but I guess it could be useful? (need to register to see attachments) [:)]
It's apparently for ME 7.1, but still..

Bosch ME7 Documentation - Funktionsrahmen (http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=400.msg2633#msg2633)

[MmmBoost]

I don't know if you guys have seen this, but I guess it could be useful? (need to register to see attachments) [:)]
It's apparently for ME 7.1, but still..

Bosch ME7 Documentation - Funktionsrahmen (http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=400.msg2633#msg2633)


This is great information, but WAY beyond what most people are interested in learning. I have spent countless late nights flogging the shit out of Google Translate trying to gain a greater understanding of how the tables in Maestro relate to the Bosch info. This information alone will not help most people when it comes to tuning though considering Maestro makes no references to the Bosch names. One of the only ways I've been able to correlate Bosch info to Maestro is by referencing it to other ECU files I've been able to locate and open with WinOLS.

......not to mention that the tables available in Maestro to edit are but a drop in the bucket compared to the number of tables in the ECU. Granted most of the ECU tables don't need to be edited, but we only can change what Tapp has made available. However, CTapp did tell me that if I needed a table added and could explain why it should be added he'd see what he could do. After asking for the Injector Compensation for Manifold Pressure he added it a few days later....so that counts for something.

[EBG 18T]

got some logs from the newest file. Everything is pretty smooth overall. It doesn't appear VCDS actually logs the 'real' actual boost since my boost gauge reads higher than the logs represent. I may have to lower the boost a tad as my IAT's are moving up more than i want at higher rpm's.

Block 003-020-026 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdFFod1Z4ZEtwOEFhLTFUT2xLZUFZSnc&hl=en&authkey=CLSsxIkF#gid=0)

Block 003-114-115 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdDJhQkhhdmp6ZGlRaU5XZWFOYXVYb3c&hl=en&authkey=CLO5y4kG)

Block 003-031-118 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdF9rS2RyY21DVnNTSVhBX2tyS0V5UEE&hl=en&authkey=CNHwwvgI)

Any thoughts?

[MmmBoost]

got some logs from the newest file. Everything is pretty smooth overall. It doesn't appear VCDS actually logs the 'real' actual boost since my boost gauge reads higher than the logs represent. I may have to lower the boost a tad as my IAT's are moving up more than i want at higher rpm's.

Block 003-020-026 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdFFod1Z4ZEtwOEFhLTFUT2xLZUFZSnc&hl=en&authkey=CLSsxIkF#gid=0)

Block 003-114-115 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdDJhQkhhdmp6ZGlRaU5XZWFOYXVYb3c&hl=en&authkey=CLO5y4kG)

Block 003-031-118 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah-XcOpYD9KWdF9rS2RyY21DVnNTSVhBX2tyS0V5UEE&hl=en&authkey=CNHwwvgI)

Any thoughts?

thought #1: Why are you logging with VCDs instead of the Maestro software? It has nearly every variable you'd want to keep track of. Only on the odd occasion do I have to go log specific blocks. I find the VCDs format confusing to follow because you have variables all over place.

#2: What MAF are you using? because whatever it is....it's too small for your setup. It's maxed out at 229g/s. Not only are you not getting an accurate measure of how much air is coming into the system on boost, but you're going to burn your MAF out in a hurry.

#3: Timing looks good, but you are getting some timing put. Within a reasonable ammount though so I would leave it.

#4: You're lean on boost. You need to adjust your requested AFR to add more fuel. At 2000 mbar, you're only asking for a lambda of 0.938 which is 13.8 AFR. Past 23 PSI you're still only asking for 13.6 or so.........way too lean. You should be asking for around 12.5 to 12 AFR. The higher RPMs look better.

[EBG 18T]

thought #1: Why are you logging with VCDs instead of the Maestro software? It has nearly every variable you'd want to keep track of. Only on the odd occasion do I have to go log specific blocks. I find the VCDs format confusing to follow because you have variables all over place.

#2: What MAF are you using? because whatever it is....it's too small for your setup. It's maxed out at 229g/s. Not only are you not getting an accurate measure of how much air is coming into the system on boost, but you're going to burn your MAF out in a hurry.

#3: Timing looks good, but you are getting some timing put. Within a reasonable ammount though so I would leave it.

#4: You're lean on boost. You need to adjust your requested AFR to add more fuel. At 2000 mbar, you're only asking for a lambda of 0.938 which is 13.8 AFR. Past 23 PSI you're still only asking for 13.6 or so.........way too lean. You should be asking for around 12.5 to 12 AFR. The higher RPMs look better.

1. for some reason i can't get the maestro logger to work right, it works sometimes and not others. So i went old school for now. i need to get the logger working again.

2. The MAF is the stock 1.8T MAF & housing. I tried to get the larger (TT225) housing calibrated correctly but for some reason i couldn't get the scaling right, so i went back to the original one. I struggled with the scaling more than i did the other variables.

3. I was happy with the timing pull. But one i add more fuel this might actually lower the timing pull

4. I have been struggling with the fueling and getting the lambda right. I might need to install a larger meth nozzles too as i am still running the small ones (175ml) i used on my K04. Should I go in an add 5% to the lower area? i wonder if the meth injection is screwing with this?

[MmmBoost]

What didn't you get about MAF scaling?

with regard to #4, it's not your injection that's the problem, it's the actual requested Lambda that is too high. Ideally you should be asking for between 0.83 and 0.80 depending on how much boost and timing you're running. I am asking for 0.8047 in the area where my boost spikes and then taper the AFR up to about 0.82 in the higher RPMs. You need to go into "full load lambda" and change the values in the corresponding load x rpm

[MmmBoost]

I was just thinking........ If your MAF is maxing out, the engine doesn't know how much air is actually going into the system and probably isn't calculating load properly, therefore you're probably not seeing the correct "actual load"

I suggest you get the MAF issue sorted out ASAP and lower your boost so you aren't maxing out the MAF in the meantime.

[gotboost]

So heres a 3rd gear pull i did yesterday, iam wondering why my timing is so low up top and why its still pulling timming? I was looking at some logs from early last year and I was getting around 21-22 degrees timming up top.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmlKdpXJm9-VdHllbkhoZ3VabGtERFItNTZWWTQ2N0E&hl=en&authkey=CK2YkXY

[SleeperAvant]

Yuriy, what were the ambient temps during that log? What spark plugs are you running?

[gotboost]

Yuriy, what were the ambient temps during that log? What spark plugs are you running?

I think it was around 30F. Ive been running NGK BKR7E gapped at .028 Since Ive gone BT, Just through in some new one a few weeks ago when I changed my oil.

Heres a log from March 2010

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmlKdpXJm9-VdFpMQjFlaVZVOXdLR1lSUDBXdkY2RWc&hl=en&authkey=CJHn8YUI

[EBG 18T]

I was just thinking........ If your MAF is maxing out, the engine doesn't know how much air is actually going into the system and probably isn't calculating load properly, therefore you're probably not seeing the correct "actual load"

I suggest you get the MAF issue sorted out ASAP and lower your boost so you aren't maxing out the MAF in the meantime.

I just ordered a new larger maf housing and will work on that next week. This weekend i will go add a tad more fuel. I will also see if i can get the Maestro logger working better. New logs to come. thanks.

[SleeperAvant]

I think it was around 30F. Ive been running NGK BKR7E gapped at .028 Since Ive gone BT, Just through in some new one a few weeks ago when I changed my oil.

Heres a log from March 2010

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmlKdpXJm9-VdFpMQjFlaVZVOXdLR1lSUDBXdkY2RWc&hl=en&authkey=CJHn8YUI

Hrm, interesting. Maybe it's bad fuel?

[JumboBlack1.8]

With my motor out of the car and in pieces, I've decided to try to add an intake setup (despite my SEVERE lack of space) so I can add an MAF. I'm bloody sick and TIRED of trying to tune for MAF-less. As far as I'm concern, Tapp should eliminate that option from Maestro. I have yet to read of a case where a user isn't detonating and pulling a TON of timing in the upper RPMs. And I believe that, over time, my low-load detonation and eventual rod bearing failure had something to do with the absence of an MAF........SO, that being said, I need an MAF....

Since I haven't found an info about users making the MAF-less to MAF switch, I'm unsure of which MAF to get. My setup is a 2.0 GT30R AWM B5 A4. I do understand theres some trial-and-error involved in finding a well-matched MAF, but any suggestions on which one to start with?

[gotboost]

Hrm, interesting. Maybe it's bad fuel?

It could be, I've always filled up at the same BP right by my place. Would that cause the timing to go down by that much though?

[SleeperAvant]

It could be, I've always filled up at the same BP right by my place. Would that cause the timing to go down by that much though?

Well, to be honest, the timing pull isn't really that much. It is still within a safe margin. Try taking out 1-2º from your pump timing map from 4900rpm - 7000rpm at loads from 165% to 170%, since your load looks like it tapers as it approaches redline.

[nofearhawk]

MAF sizes easily scaled in maestro

TT225, VR6 = 3" OD, ~2.75" ID
S4 = 3.25" OD, 3" ID

[gotboost]

So I'm still wondering why I'm only getting about 13 degrees around 6900 rpm's( is that what you were saying could be because of bad gas)?

[SleeperAvant]

So I'm still wondering why I'm only getting about 13 degrees around 6900 rpm's( is that what you were saying could be because of bad gas)?

I'm not entirely sure. I've observed that as load (i.e. boost) increases, timing advance decreases. FWIW, here is a log (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ak9eyIru6I8ZdEp6OTY4R090SWpzRU5YNjMtQ25QT 3c&hl=en#gid=0) of 1st and 2nd gear.

[gotboost]

So Ive been logging block 32 and trying to reduce the values. So currently block 1 is 2% and block 2 is -7%.

Now for block one do I take the % and multiply it by the current Injector constant and then take that and subtract it from each BVC value?

And how do I lower the Value in the second block?

[MmmBoost]

I've explained this several times.

go back and read through the thread please.

[EBG 18T]

installed the TT 3" MAF. Updated the file to reflect the new MAF. Worked perfect. Now i just need to finish getting logs so i can tweak the file. Last logs were slightly richer accross the whole rpm range. The new MAF made a huge improvment in 'feel', i think my old MAF was either dying or not calibrated correctly with my file.

[gotboost]

I've explained this several times.

go back and read through the thread please.

So I read through it, and so it take the second value and multiply it by the injector constant and take that and +/- it from the injector constant. Did I get that correctly?

[MmmBoost]

Some exciting news to share.

Tapp emailed me this morning informing me that V2.0.9 now includes the switch to control whether or not you're using a returnless or a return fuel system. I asked for this a few weeks ago and he delivered this week as promised. I'm quite happy about this.

SO.....

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/return_switch.jpg

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/plus_sign1.jpg

http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/FRLFSDP_return.jpg


"should" do the trick. I haven't tried it yet.....so I can't confirm

[nein-reis]

Chris, you're a rock star!!!! Thats fucking awesome news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hansi]

Very nice, we're lucky to have you requesting new features [:)]

[nofearhawk]

Can you ask Tapp to open up the transmission control unit maps for the tiptronic? Particularly, to change the shifts points so it doesn't upshift when it hits the stock redline, ~6500rpm (I want to be able to bump this number up).

I asked him before, but he said I was the only one to ever ask for it, and didn't see a demand.

Any other Maestro 7 tiptronic owners out there?

[MmmBoost]

Have you adjusted both rev limiters in Maestro?