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View Full Version : 96 A4 2.8 auto: won't start (no spark) after trans change



vtraudt
11-10-2010, 05:33 AM
I replaced a bad transmission with a used one. Now car cranks, but won't start. Don't have spark.
Battery was disconnected for 2 weeks, but I was told there is no 'security gremlin' in my car that cuts the spark. Correct?

So it must be something else?

The areas where any 'action' took place where:
- remove exhaust
- remove all four O2 sensors
- remove trans (2 electrical connectors)
- remove front bumper
- remove radiator (coolant leaked into trans and destroyed it)
- remove on driver side in engine bay:
+ coolant reservoir
+ valve cover, disconnect breather hose, disconnect cam sensor connector (which has a loose/broken base where it slides/mounts to the head, but wires seem ok, see photo below)
+ O2 sensor connector
- remove no passenger side in engine bay:
+ air box
+ all connector to air box
+ O2 sensor connector

Note: The shifter cable is currently not yet adjusted. Moving the shifter through the positions, the starter kicks in when the display shows neutral N, but the shift lever is physically in revers R position (and I cannot physically get it far enough forward to get the display position park P (when physically in P, the display shows reverse R, and starter won't work).

Showing "N" on the display ("R" physically), there is a very audible 'click' when applying the brakes (I'm sure this is a lockout relay/pin that prevents the shifter lever to be moved if brakes are not applied).

I connector an OBDII reader, but doesn't show anything.

The trip odometer display shows Ln2 or In2, not sure if it means anything.
Temp, Oil, Gas warning light come on when turning ignition on (bulb check).

I have to check again, but I think I did NOT see the MIL light (in the RPM gauge) come on when the ignition is on.

Please send ANY suggestions, comments, ideas how and where to check and troubleshoot.

Here is the driver side cam sensor (rear top of cylinder head:
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/IMG_5193.jpg
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/IMG_5192.jpg

vtraudt
11-10-2010, 06:05 AM
I have not checked or filled the transmission fluid. It was taken out of the car by the salvage yard I got it from, with fluid in; but certainly lost fluid (can't say how much).
Could THAT prevent the engine from starting, and cut spark?

vtraudt
11-10-2010, 04:32 PM
I fiddled around a bit more (still waiting for my fellow forum cohorts to chime in), adjusted the shift linkage bracket (now P on the display is P on the shifter, etc.).

Also broke loose the filler plug (gigantic Allen wrench, don't know what size, borrowed from my trusted local trans shop), using plenty of PB Blaster and 4 ft steel pipe as wrench extension.

Then snapped a photo from the area where the cats are (since it looks as if there is supposed to be some sort of bracket, but not on my car).

With the photo in my hand, I thought I take pics of the labels of the old transmission housing and the new/used trans.

And then it hit me:

The old unit says: 5HP-19 DRN.
DRN? Can't be. Every list/directory I looked up what new transmission I need for the 1996 A4 2.8 quattro auto says CJP.

I went to the used trans I bought (from a 1997 A4 2.8 quattro auto), and the same label says: CJP

I REPLACED A DRN TRANSMISSION WITH A CJP TRANSMISSION.

I rechecked the parts list/search engine I used before starting to look for a used trans, and they indeed only list for my 1996 A4 2.8:
- CXW for manual quattro
- CWZ for manual non quattro
- CJP for auto quattro
- DCS for auto non quattro
- CJY for auto non quattro

WHAT THE F... IS GOING ON HERE?

Is my car NOT a 1996?
VIN:WAUEA88D0TA209419

Is it possible that the 1996 A4 2.8 quattro auto come with other than CJP transmission (here: DRN)?

Was the original transmission may be changed already (from a CJP to a DRN)?

No matter if/why/what: is there a fix to remedy the issue?

It seem very likely that the CJP trans now installed may not jive well with the ECU, and that is why I don't get a MIL light when turning ignition on (it is supposed to show up, then disappear when engine is running), and the engine only cranking but no spark? Is my fear valid?

What can I do now?

walky_talky20
11-10-2010, 08:56 PM
The car ought to start no matter what's up with the tranny. As long as everything plugged in, you should be alright. Couple things:

- What happened to the cam position sensor there (was it broken before)?
- Are you getting injector pulse?
- Are you getting MIL with key on?
- Do you have any codes?
- Do you have rpm signal to the ECU?

vtraudt
11-11-2010, 03:48 AM
The car ought to start no matter what's up with the tranny. As long as everything plugged in, you should be alright.

==>Thats good news, if it also means the trans should work in my car????

Couple things:

- What happened to the cam position sensor there (was it broken before)? A: the connector is loose, not sitting well in the groove of the head (plastic); wires seem intact

- Are you getting injector pulse? A: Not checked yet. Don't smell gas. Need Joppie Light (or some funny name) from Autozone to check impulses.

- Are you getting MIL with key on? A: NO. There is NO MIL when ignition on.

- Do you have any codes? A: No. The generic OBDII we plugged in did not show any codes, but also did NOT show any 'live data'. Have not run VAGcom yet.

- Do you have rpm signal to the ECU? A:not sure how to find out if I have RPM signal to ECU. OBDII did not show any live data (were hoping to see RPM when cranking). Have not run VAGcom yet.

vtraudt
11-11-2010, 04:21 AM
As a start, here the basic question to the 'no start, no spark, no MIL' situation:

Can the different transmission code (I installed CJP (which according to my info is the correct one for 96 A4 2.8 quattro)but the previously installed one was DRN) be responsible for the no start situation?

Or is the problem in the engine?

vtraudt
11-13-2010, 02:57 PM
I connected the VAGcom today.
Here is the log (below). Does anything there point to a reason why the engine won't start, no spark?

Saturday,13,November,2010,12:48:53:22662
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1
Data version: 20100831



************************************************** ******************************
************************************************** ******************************


Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 25 35 37 45 55 56 57 67 75 76 77

Mileage: 211470km/131401miles
************************************************** ****************************-
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No: 8D0 906 266 B
Component: 2,8l V6/2V MPI OBD2 D01
Coding: 01251
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 2B5BF371F377

No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 8D0 927 156 J
Component: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 3469E80D2E49

1 Fault Found:
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4D0-907-379-ABS.lbl
Part No: 4D0 907 379 J
Component: ABS/EDS BOSCH 5 7679
Shop #: BB 37679
VCID: 356FD5092533

No fault code found.

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8L0-820-043-2D.lbl
Part No: 8L0 820 043 D
Component: A4 KLIMAVOLLAUTOMAT_D75
Coding: 04162
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 29570979F98B

8 Faults Found:
00779 - Outside Air Temp Sensor (G17)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
01271 - Positioning Motor for Temperature Flap (V68)
41-10 - Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71)
41-10 - Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent
00792 - A/C Pressure Switch (F129)
31-00 - Open or Short to Ground
01297 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Footwell (G192)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01296 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Center (G191)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01206 - Signal for Duration of Ignition Off Time
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01582 - Signal for Coolant Temperature
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8A0-959-655.lbl
Part No: 8A0 959 655 D
Component: Airbag V AUDI D00
Coding: 00127
Shop #: WSC 06334
VCID: 3469E80D2E49

4 Faults Found:
65535 - Internal Control Module Memory Error
00-10 - - - Intermittent
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
00588 - Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N95)
32-10 - Resistance too High - Intermittent
01025 - Trigger for On Board Diagnostic Lamp; Malfunction
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8D0-919-0xx-17.lbl
Part No: 8D0 919 035 G
Component: B5-KOMBIINSTRUMENT D08
Coding: 00262
Shop #: WSC 02032
VCID: 2E5DFA65C065

No fault code found.

End ************************************************** ******************-

walky_talky20
11-13-2010, 09:45 PM
Can you get live data from vag-com? RPM signal? Injector pulse?

vtraudt
11-14-2010, 04:16 AM
Can you get live data from vag-com? RPM signal? Injector pulse?

Yes, I had VAGcom screens that show live date. I went through some of the preset channels. The RPM data that I saw was actually 'moving' when I pressed the gas pedal (showing 450 to start then up to 5400 when pressing the pedal all the way).

I could not find an RPM channel that was NOT 'pedal influenced'. What do I need to select in VAGcom that allows me to 'see' RPM when cranking (as a check than cam, crank, etc. sensor work/communicate)?

vtraudt
11-14-2010, 07:45 AM
Can the VAGcom be used to help with troubleshooting? If so, how (I would need instructions to find the right VAGcom page/setting to obtain the info).

walky_talky20
11-14-2010, 09:39 AM
Hmm. I don't think it should be doing that. Maybe try looking at Group 000 channel 3 (RPM).

Also, have you checked fuse #32?

While you are there, also check fuses #28, 29, 34, and 5.

vtraudt
11-14-2010, 10:29 AM
Hmm. I don't think it should be doing that. Maybe try looking at Group 000 channel 3 (RPM).

Also, have you checked fuse #32?

While you are there, also check fuses #28, 29, 34, and 5.

Thanks walkytalky; at this point ANY suggestion helps. I will plug in VAGcom again on Monday and do channel 3.
And duh!, I have indeed not checked fuses. Will do on Monday also.

When you say: shouldn't do it, do you mean: RPM should NOT change with gas pedal motion? I.e. they should show zero (with only ignition on) and 'some' value when cranking?

walky_talky20
11-14-2010, 02:46 PM
Thanks walkytalky; at this point ANY suggestion helps. I will plug in VAGcom again on Monday and do channel 3.
And duh!, I have indeed not checked fuses. Will do on Monday also.

When you say: shouldn't do it, do you mean: RPM should NOT change with gas pedal motion? I.e. they should show zero (with only ignition on) and 'some' value when cranking?

Yes, that is what I mean. Throttle input shouldn't change the rpm signal, but the starter should. I can't say that I've done this on a 12v V6, though, so there could be something weird. That is how we normally check for good crank signal anyway. If it's getting a signal and it is still acting up, sometimes we will scope the crank sensor as well to look at signal quality. Audi's are generally very good about throwing a code before you ever get that far, though.

Check your fuses first, though. #32 and #5 should be hot with key in ON or START. #28,29,34 should be hot during cranking (hot with fuel pump running).

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 06:28 AM
Still desperately troubleshooting the crank but no spark, no MIL issue.
Since I had disconnected the battery for several weeks, is it possible that an Anti Theft can do that?
Does a 1996 A4 2.8 quattro auto AFC have Anti Theft?
Could any fuses cause the crank but no spark, no MIL (when ignition on) condition?

I have checked crank position and cam sensor, several grounds, looked for pinched (during trans install) wires.

Mawhitey
11-17-2010, 09:25 AM
1 Fault Found:
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

That's the issue, don't you guys have to press the brake peddle to allow the car to start?

If the switch doesn't work, how does the car know the peddle is depressed?

walky_talky20
11-17-2010, 09:29 AM
No, you don't have to press the brake pedal to start the car.

Fuses of interest here: 32, 28, 29, 34, and 5

I described their operation (when they should have power) above.

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 09:52 AM
1 Fault Found:
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

That's the issue, don't you guys have to press the brake peddle to allow the car to start?

If the switch doesn't work, how does the car know the peddle is depressed?

I'lll check, but I notice the following:
When in park P, pressing the brake pedal illuminates the icon on the shifter, and I hear the 'shift lever locking relay' click.

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 09:54 AM
No, you don't have to press the brake pedal to start the car.

Fuses of interest here: 32, 28, 29, 34, and 5

I described their operation (when they should have power) above.

I will check fuses this afternoon.
Sure that "anti theft" is not screwing me?


Check your fuses first, though. #32 and #5 should be hot with key in ON or START. #28,29,34 should be hot during cranking (hot with fuel pump running).

nick17
11-17-2010, 12:18 PM
Not sure if the 96 a4's have a transmission multifunction switch like tiptronic A4's do but I almost bought a 98 A4 2.8 that had bad multifunction switch wiring and it would turn over but wouldn't start, just a thought...

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 01:50 PM
Where would the switch be located? No tiptronic here. How would it look like?

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 02:09 PM
I will check fuses this afternoon.
Sure that "anti theft" is not screwing me?


Check your fuses first, though. #32 and #5 should be hot with key in ON or START. #28,29,34 should be hot during cranking (hot with fuel pump running).

Fueses are good. 32 and 5 are hot with key on. Not checked 2,29,34 fi hot when cranking.

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 02:16 PM
RPM log (ignition on, gas pedal pressed/depressed):
Wednesday 17 November 2010 16:43:13:22662 VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 Data version: 20100831
8D0 906 266 B 2.8l V6/2V MPI OBD2 D01

Group A: '000 Group B: '002 Group C: '003
Voltage Voltage Voltage Bin. Bits RPM Load Load Speed
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP STAMP V V V STAMP /min % % km/h
0.4 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 0.87 1.3 0.315 0 0 0.01 475 32.9 53.9 84
1.75 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 2.21 1.3 0.315 0 0 1.33 475 32.9 53.9 84
3.07 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 3.55 1.3 0.315 0 0 2.67 475 32.9 53.9 84
4.43 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 4.89 1.3 0.315 0 0 4.03 475 32.9 53.9 84
5.76 0 0 80 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 6.23 1.3 0.315 0 0 5.36 4850 106.3 53.9 68
7.1 0 0 0 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 7.57 1.3 0.315 0 0 6.7 2775 106.3 53.9 68
8.45 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 8.91 1.3 0.315 0 0 8.04 475 32.9 53.9 84
9.82 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 10.28 1.3 0.315 0 0 9.4 5700 106.3 53.9 68
11.13 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 11.61 1.3 0.315 0 0 10.74 5700 106.3 53.9 68
12.48 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 12.94 1.3 0.315 0 0 12.07 5700 106.3 53.9 68
13.8 0 0 49 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 14.27 1.3 0.315 0 0 13.4 3700 106.3 53.9 68
15.15 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 15.61 1.3 0.315 0 0 14.74 500 32.9 53.9 84
16.49 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 16.95 1.3 0.315 0 0 16.08 475 32.9 53.9 84
17.83 0 0 117 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 18.3 1.3 0.315 0 0 17.42 1575 106.3 53.9 68
19.17 0 0 0 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 19.64 1.3 0.315 0 0 18.77 5700 106.3 53.9 68
20.51 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 20.98 1.3 0.315 0 0 20.1 475 32.9 53.9 84
21.85 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 22.32 1.3 0.315 0 0 21.44 475 32.9 53.9 84
23.2 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 23.66 1.3 0.315 0 0 22.79 475 32.9 53.9 84
24.53 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 25 1.3 0.315 0 0 24.12 475 32.9 53.9 84
25.88 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 26.34 1.3 0.32 0 0 25.46 500 32.9 53.9 84
27.21 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 27.68 1.3 0.315 0 0 26.82 475 32.9 53.9 84
28.56 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 29.02 1.3 0.32 0 0 28.16 475 32.9 53.9 84
29.9 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 30.38 1.3 0.315 0 0 29.5 475 32.9 53.9 84
31.24 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 31.71 1.3 0.315 0 0 30.84 475 32.9 53.9 84
32.59 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 33.06 1.3 0.315 0 0 32.18 475 32.9 53.9 84
33.93 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 34.4 1.3 0.315 0 0 33.52 475 32.9 53.9 84
35.27 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 35.74 1.3 0.315 0 0 34.87 475 32.9 53.9 84
36.61 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 37.09 1.3 0.315 0 0 36.21 475 32.9 53.9 84
37.98 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 38.45 1.3 0.315 0 0 37.57 475 32.9 53.9 84
39.32 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 39.79 1.3 0.39 0 0 38.92 475 33.3 53.9 84
40.66 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 41.13 1.3 0.68 0 0 40.26 475 32.9 53.9 84
42 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 42.47 1.3 0.7 0 0 41.6 475 32.9 53.9 84
43.34 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 43.83 1.3 0.68 0 0 42.94 475 32.9 53.9 84
44.71 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 45.18 1.3 0.375 0 0 44.29 475 32.9 53.9 84
46.05 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 46.52 1.3 0.355 0 0 45.64 475 32.9 53.9 84
47.38 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 47.84 1.3 0.335 0 0 46.98 475 32.9 53.9 84

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Codes after delete codes, disconnect battery (few min only).
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1
Data version: 20100831

Wednesday,17,November,2010,17:10:15:22662

Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 25 35 37 45 55 56 57 67 75 76 77

Mileage: 211470km/131401miles
************************************************** ****************************-
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No: 8D0 906 266 B
Component: 2,8l V6/2V MPI OBD2 D01
Coding: 01251
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 2B5BF371F377

No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 8D0 927 156 J
Component: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 3469E80D2E49

1 Fault Found:
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4D0-907-379-ABS.lbl
Part No: 4D0 907 379 J
Component: ABS/EDS BOSCH 5 7679
Shop #: BB 37679
VCID: 356FD5092533

No fault code found.

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8L0-820-043-2D.lbl
Part No: 8L0 820 043 D
Component: A4 KLIMAVOLLAUTOMAT_D75
Coding: 04162
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 29570979F98B

4 Faults Found:
01297 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Footwell (G192)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01296 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Center (G191)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01206 - Signal for Duration of Ignition Off Time
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01582 - Signal for Coolant Temperature
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8A0-959-655.lbl
Part No: 8A0 959 655 D
Component: Airbag V AUDI D00
Coding: 00127
Shop #: WSC 06334
VCID: 3469E80D2E49

4 Faults Found:
65535 - Internal Control Module Memory Error
00-10 - - - Intermittent
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
00588 - Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N95)
32-10 - Resistance too High - Intermittent
01025 - Trigger for On Board Diagnostic Lamp; Malfunction
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8D0-919-0xx-17.lbl
Part No: 8D0 919 035 G
Component: B5-KOMBIINSTRUMENT D08
Coding: 00262
Shop #: WSC 02032
VCID: 2E5DFA65C065

No fault code found.

End ************************************************** ******************-

vtraudt
11-17-2010, 02:18 PM
RPM log (ignition on, gas pedal pressed/depressed):

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/LOG-01-000-002-003.jpg


Wednesday 17 November 2010 16:43:13:22662 VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 Data version: 20100831
8D0 906 266 B 2.8l V6/2V MPI OBD2 D01

Group A: '000 Group B: '002 Group C: '003
Voltage Voltage Voltage Bin. Bits RPM Load Load Speed
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP STAMP V V V STAMP /min % % km/h
0.4 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 0.87 1.3 0.315 0 0 0.01 475 32.9 53.9 84
1.75 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 2.21 1.3 0.315 0 0 1.33 475 32.9 53.9 84
3.07 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 3.55 1.3 0.315 0 0 2.67 475 32.9 53.9 84
4.43 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 4.89 1.3 0.315 0 0 4.03 475 32.9 53.9 84
5.76 0 0 80 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 6.23 1.3 0.315 0 0 5.36 4850 106.3 53.9 68
7.1 0 0 0 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 7.57 1.3 0.315 0 0 6.7 2775 106.3 53.9 68
8.45 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 8.91 1.3 0.315 0 0 8.04 475 32.9 53.9 84
9.82 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 10.28 1.3 0.315 0 0 9.4 5700 106.3 53.9 68
11.13 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 11.61 1.3 0.315 0 0 10.74 5700 106.3 53.9 68
12.48 0 0 201 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 12.94 1.3 0.315 0 0 12.07 5700 106.3 53.9 68
13.8 0 0 49 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 14.27 1.3 0.315 0 0 13.4 3700 106.3 53.9 68
15.15 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 15.61 1.3 0.315 0 0 14.74 500 32.9 53.9 84
16.49 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 16.95 1.3 0.315 0 0 16.08 475 32.9 53.9 84
17.83 0 0 117 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 18.3 1.3 0.315 0 0 17.42 1575 106.3 53.9 68
19.17 0 0 0 0 0 128 68 128 0 110 19.64 1.3 0.315 0 0 18.77 5700 106.3 53.9 68
20.51 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 20.98 1.3 0.315 0 0 20.1 475 32.9 53.9 84
21.85 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 22.32 1.3 0.315 0 0 21.44 475 32.9 53.9 84
23.2 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 23.66 1.3 0.315 0 0 22.79 475 32.9 53.9 84
24.53 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 25 1.3 0.315 0 0 24.12 475 32.9 53.9 84
25.88 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 26.34 1.3 0.32 0 0 25.46 500 32.9 53.9 84
27.21 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 27.68 1.3 0.315 0 0 26.82 475 32.9 53.9 84
28.56 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 29.02 1.3 0.32 0 0 28.16 475 32.9 53.9 84
29.9 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 30.38 1.3 0.315 0 0 29.5 475 32.9 53.9 84
31.24 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 31.71 1.3 0.315 0 0 30.84 475 32.9 53.9 84
32.59 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 33.06 1.3 0.315 0 0 32.18 475 32.9 53.9 84
33.93 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 34.4 1.3 0.315 0 0 33.52 475 32.9 53.9 84
35.27 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 35.74 1.3 0.315 0 0 34.87 475 32.9 53.9 84
36.61 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 37.09 1.3 0.315 0 0 36.21 475 32.9 53.9 84
37.98 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 38.45 1.3 0.315 0 0 37.57 475 32.9 53.9 84
39.32 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 39.79 1.3 0.39 0 0 38.92 475 33.3 53.9 84
40.66 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 41.13 1.3 0.68 0 0 40.26 475 32.9 53.9 84
42 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 42.47 1.3 0.7 0 0 41.6 475 32.9 53.9 84
43.34 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 43.83 1.3 0.68 0 0 42.94 475 32.9 53.9 84
44.71 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 45.18 1.3 0.375 0 0 44.29 475 32.9 53.9 84
46.05 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 46.52 1.3 0.355 0 0 45.64 475 32.9 53.9 84
47.38 0 0 0 0 0 128 84 128 0 110 47.84 1.3 0.335 0 0 46.98 475 32.9 53.9 84

vtraudt
11-18-2010, 05:49 AM
Since it seems to be coming back, and I remain totally in the dark (no spark), I may want to check on this error (who knows).

Any suggestions how to tackle it?
Where is this switch located?
Wires from/to?
Connectors?


Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 8D0 927 156 J
Component: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 3469E80D2E49

1 Fault Found:
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

nick17
11-18-2010, 10:03 AM
Where would the switch be located? No tiptronic here. How would it look like?

switch is located on the side of the transmission, looks like this: http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-V6_12v/Drivetrain/Transmission/ES2289/

I'd be very suspicious of the cam sensor as you need working cam and crankshaft sensors to get a spark and if yours is damaged like you said that may be the cause. only other things I can come up with are safety relays such as the neutral safety relay (175) and just general communication/coding issues between the new trans, TCU and ECU. I'm pretty sure I've had that code before but I reset it and it never came back

Mawhitey
11-18-2010, 10:26 AM
I would probably bridge the wire to test it. The sw is located above the peddle under the drivers knee bolster.

I would also say you don't have immo in the US till at least 2001, don't know why, but it makes swapping ECUs over much easier for you guys

vtraudt
11-19-2010, 05:46 AM
One thing that seems to be strange (can someone reconfirm that is is NOT supposed to show RPM values when engine not running) is that the RPM value in VAGcom moves with the gas pedal motion (ignition on), see earlier logs posted here..

What can be checked (sensors, connectors, wires)?

vtraudt
11-22-2010, 05:21 AM
Someone suggested the following, but won't explain how to do it (or what is really meant).

Can the forum help?

"You can check the MIL bulb with DVOM or with outputs in 17-03 go/next [VAGcom]

More then likely the following to be verified, a bad G28 [ground?], or in some MPI a bad ecu supply voltage relay [location?], or ignition switch [location?] during the crank circuit killing 15 [what is that and where? A fuse?]

DVOM will verify volts on G28 during crank regardless of ecu.

Check the key switch and supply relay first. [location? how to check?]

vtraudt
11-23-2010, 10:37 AM
Not making progress in finding the cause, I replaced the crankshaft position sensor. No change.
Next suspect is what is called engine speed sensor, RPM sensor, reference sensor.
I could not find the confirmed part number. Is this it? W0133-1619243
Vagcom lists the sensor as G28 I think.

vtraudt
11-23-2010, 11:32 AM
One thing that seems to be strange (can someone reconfirm that is is NOT supposed to show RPM values when engine not running) is that the RPM value in VAGcom moves with the gas pedal motion (ignition on), see earlier logs posted here..

What can be checked (sensors, connectors, wires)?

This seems to be caused by VAgcom trying to read more than one group. Looks like the Hitachi ECU can't deal with it. If selecting only Group 3, RPM don't move, just "load".

Cranking shows no change in RPM value.

vtraudt
12-02-2010, 02:33 PM
In the meantime, I have tried a lot of things:
- installed new crankshaft sensor: no change
- took the Engine Speed (RPM) sensor off, received error code
- reinstalled RMP sensor: now have RPM (150 rpm) signal when cranking (in VAGcom engine module, group 3)
- RPM do NOT change anymore with throttle (and engine not running). This is an error caused in VAGcom (or ECU) if more than one group is 'active' in a module (I had selected for example 01, 02, 03 at the same time).

We unplugged the 2 transmission connectors; received an error code.
Plugged back in. still have one error code in VAGcom transmission module:

Thursday,02,December,2010,15:45:11:22662

VCDS Version: Release 10.6.2



Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl

Control Module Part Number: 8D0 927 156 J

Component and/or Version: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89

Software Coding: 00000

Work Shop Code: WSC 00000

VCID: 3469E80D2E47

1 Fault Found:


00526 - Brake Light Switch-F

27-00 - Implausible Signal

Could this error cause 'no spark'?
How can I fix this "brake light switch". Where is it located?
Pressing the brake pedal is activating the shifter lock relay (audible, and light on shifter console turns off), so at least one switch (are there more brake pedal switches?) is working.

The only other errors are HVAC and Airbag (see latest log below).

The MIL light is still not coming on when ignition is turned on. I ran the output test in VAGcom (Instrument module, output test sequence, but I don't see that it tests the bulb; better said: I don't know if the output test sequence is supposed to turn the MIL light on). Can someone post the VAGcom instructions for output test of the MIL light?

We manually (spark plug out) tested for NO SPARK. I haven't checked "NO FUEL" yet (need to pick up the Noid light again).

I bought another ECU, but I would be surprised that the ECU is causing the issue (VAGcom does not show anything that would point at the ECU). I ran several output tests (transmission clicks valves through, engine module outputs seem to audibly work, etc.). I have the control module code saved (in case swapping ECU requires recoding of the new ECU).

I have not replaced the cam sensor yet; checks seem to confirm that it is working, and I am not sure if the cam sensor would cause the ECU suppress spark.

Now that we have an RPM signal, what else may cause 'no spark'. Assuming 'no fuel' in addition (to be confirmed again, but that's what we had last time) and 'no MIL'.

What else to check?


**-


No Faults Found

Thursday,02,December,2010,14:06:15:22662
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.2

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 8D0 927 156 J
Component and/or Version: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000
VCID: 3469E80D2E47
No Faults Found

or DTCs not supported by controller
a communication error occurred

VCDS Version: Release 10.6.2
Data version: 20101123

Thursday,02,December,2010,15:11:34:22662

Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 25 35 37 45 55 56 57 67 75 76 77

Mileage: 211470km/131401miles
************************************************** ****************************-
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No: 8D0 906 266 B
Component: 2,8l V6/2V MPI OBD2 D01
Coding: 01251
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 2B5BF371F379

No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 8D0 927 156 J
Component: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 3469E80D2E47

2 Faults Found:
00293 - Multi-function Switch (F125)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00526 - Brake Light Switch-F
27-00 - Implausible Signal

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4D0-907-379-ABS.lbl
Part No: 4D0 907 379 J
Component: ABS/EDS BOSCH 5 7679
Shop #: BB 37679
VCID: 356FD509253D

No fault code found.

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8L0-820-043-2D.lbl
Part No: 8L0 820 043 D
Component: A4 KLIMAVOLLAUTOMAT_D75
Coding: 04162
Shop #: WSC 06325
VCID: 29570979F985

4 Faults Found:
01297 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Footwell (G192)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01296 - Sensor for Vent Temperature; Center (G191)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01206 - Signal for Duration of Ignition Off Time
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01582 - Signal for Coolant Temperature
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8A0-959-655.lbl
Part No: 8A0 959 655 D
Component: Airbag V AUDI D00
Coding: 00127
Shop #: WSC 06334
VCID: 3469E80D2E47

4 Faults Found:
65535 - Internal Control Module Memory Error
00-10 - - - Intermittent
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
00588 - Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N95)
32-10 - Resistance too High - Intermittent
01025 - Trigger for On Board Diagnostic Lamp; Malfunction
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent

************************************************** ****************************-
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8D0-919-0xx-17.lbl
Part No: 8D0 919 035 G
Component: B5-KOMBIINSTRUMENT D08
Coding: 00262
Shop #: WSC 02032
VCID: 2E5DFA65C06B

No fault code found.

End ************************************************** ******************-

S4NIK8
12-02-2010, 09:20 PM
I know it seems really basic but are you sure everything is plugged in? Something may have gotten unplugged and overlooked when re-installing.

walky_talky20
12-02-2010, 09:50 PM
We should really find out if you are getting injector pulse. That way we know whether it is a problem with timing signals (crank, cam, etc) or just a problem with the ignition side of things (power output stage, etc). If you have no spark AND no injector pulse, that is quite different than just no spark.

FWIW, here is what my repair software has for diagnostic steps for a 96 A4 "no start", "cranks okay", "no spark" situation:
- Ensure secondary ignition system is in good condition
- Ensure ignition coil supply voltage is correct
- Ensure ignition coil primary resistance is correct
- Ensure ignition coil secondary resistance is correct
- Check camshaft position sensor operation
- Ensure ECU has correct voltage supply and ground
- Check vehicle for aftermarket equipment that may be installed incorrectly

Also, it has this to say about the Camshaft position sensor:
Cam position sensor is located at the rear of the left cylinder head camshaft. Signals from Crank Position Sensor and Cam Position sensor are used to identify ignition TDC of cylinder #3. When starting the engine, the first ignition and injection points are triggered by the PCM after receiving both signals.

It should be noted that the same information for a 1.8T notes that the engine will run without issue if the Cam sensor has failed or is absent. I know that to be true, I've tried it. This seems to indicate that is not true on the 2.8. It will fail to give spark or fuel without it. I am inclined to believe it in this case. Although I don't have a 12V to try it on. Maybe another 12V owner can help out here. I'd look closer into that cam sensor.

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 04:47 AM
I know it seems really basic but are you sure everything is plugged in? Something may have gotten unplugged and overlooked when re-installing.

We are troubleshooting since 4 weeks with the car blocking the hoist. Believe me, we don't consider anything 'basic' anymore.
I even switched out the battery with a newer one to avoid that the occasional 'low voltage' (cranking, hours with ignition on) is not creating issue or false positives.

But what "disconnected" wire/connector has the potential to suppress spark and no MIL condition without showing up in VAGcom


Connections to trans:
- two downstream 02 sensors (exhaust has to be removed); left plugged in
- 1 big round connector (main trans), screw on type
- 1 small round connector going to the position
- mechanical shifter linkage
- 2 transmission fluid lines to radiator/cooler

Radiator removal (leaking transmission cooler):
- there were 2 wires I think that were disconnected, I think
Here is what was disconnected in addition in the process:
- upstream 02 sensors (exhaust removed)
- driver side valve cover for better access to exhaust flange bolts
- passenger side air box with all connectors to get access to exhaust flange bolt
- starter thick wire
- starter small 1 wire blade connector
- alternator 1 thick wire

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 04:59 AM
I know it seems really basic but are you sure everything is plugged in? Something may have gotten unplugged and overlooked when re-installing.

I read (among the 100s) a post where the troubleshooting started with an engine not running well, and ended up 'crank, but won't start'. Turned out they initially had enough gas, but with all the cranking, running etc. they ran out of gas.

The engine was starting and running fine when we put the car on the lift and removed the trans, fuel gauge showed less than 1/4.
But I put 10 gal extra in just to be sure after I read that post.

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 06:38 AM
At the onset of the project (replace bad transmission caused by trans cooler leak in radiator, install new radiator), I looked up what trans I need.

1996 Audi A4 2.8 quattro automatic

Based on VIN and Year:
WAUEA88D0TA209419
Engine code (5th): A (indicates 1997 SOHC according to Haynes manual)
Model year (10th): T (indicates 1996)
Built date (sticker): 03/96

Looking for used trans (car-part.com etc.), they all show transmission code CJP and offer 1996 and 1997 compatible years.

I found a CJP out of a 1997 and bought it. After problems started, I took photos from both transmission (to upload to forums etc.) and found that the new trans was in deed a 5HP19, code CJP. BUT THE OLD TRANS WAS CODE DRN (which based on my info is not supposed to be in the car).

1997 A4 2.8 quattro auto could have:
A.T., 2.8L, Quattro, code CJP
or
A.T., 2.8L, Quattro, code DRN

I don't know how the DRN got into my 1996 (and the built date is not even close to model year change).

I also don't know if the trans has anything to do with spark, fuel etc (but know that if I disconnect the trans connectors, it won't crank; also can run output test in VAGcom, trans module and valves are clicking; and VAGcom runs error code check)

Just want to get input to rule out more potential sources for the problem.

walky_talky20
12-03-2010, 06:49 AM
The reason is doesn't crank when you disconnect the trans is because the Park/Neutral Safety Switch is built-in to the trasmission "multifunction range switch". The starter wire actually passes through the tranny switch. If you wanted you could always jumper past it.

How about that cam sensor? Have you been through all the items on the checklist I provided (checking coil primary and secondary resistance, checking voltage supply to coil, etc)? Do you have injector pulse?

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 07:05 AM
My Engine Speed (RPM) sensor is/was located on the driver side near, mid way up of the ENGINE block.

In Bentley is a photo showing another location of the crank, on the driver side of the TRANSMISSION housing (currently an open hole), that I found with search function.

Could that refer to the 30V (NOT AFC) 2.8 liter engine? Can someone confirm? Again, just wanting to rule out stuff.

Text: G28 Engine Speed (RPM) sensor (2.8 ltr. Engine): in transmission bellhousing, driver's side, front; mounting boss shown (w/out sensor)

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/G28EngineSpeedsensorlocation28ontransmissionbellho using.jpg

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 07:14 AM
The reason is doesn't crank when you disconnect the trans is because the Park/Neutral Safety Switch is built-in to the trasmission "multifunction range switch". The starter wire actually passes through the tranny switch. If you wanted you could always jumper past it.

How about that cam sensor? Have you been through all the items on the checklist I provided (checking coil primary and secondary resistance, checking voltage supply to coil, etc)? Do you have injector pulse?

I will go down to the shop around noon, pick up Noid light (spell?) from Autozone to confirm NO FUEL (or injector pulse as you call it). Last time checked (at that time we did NOT have RPM signal from engine speed sensor).
Also have printed the Bentley 'power output stage check' list and the 'cam sensor function test' (unplug 4 pin output stage connector and check with VAGcom for code).

Next: I have a new (Autozone) cam sensor standing by. Will install this afternoon (irrespective of the check; I don't like how wires in the connector look, even so all checks sofar have shown that cam sensor (on driver side, rear of head); I think there is a second on passenger side, front of head; never checked this one).

vtraudt
12-03-2010, 07:18 AM
I can't find a good, readable pin out for the ECM connectors. For continuity (and diode test, voltage test, resistance test, etc.), I could use a good diagram that shows the connector letter and the numbers of the individual pins.

Can someone post a good one for my ECM (Bentley Code J192, ECM 8D0 906 266 B)?

vtraudt
12-04-2010, 06:22 AM
Here is the status update from yesterdays activities:
- check fuses in driver side door fuse panel: ok
- confirm RPM signal in VAGcom when cranking
- confirmed no codes (transmission code gone with foot on brake pedal)
- put NOID light on injectors: have fuel
- confirmed: NO SPARK
- installed new cam sensor G40 on rear head of driver side cylinder: no change
- ran output test with VAGcom in instrument module: did NOT see MIL lamp come on (like burnt out? also did not hear chime)
- ran output test in more modules (engine, trans; all seem (audible) good)

no spark trouble shooting done:
- ignition power output stage N122: 3 pin connector: should have battery voltage against ground with ignition on: NO
- 4 pin connector: check ground: OK
- signal check: connected NOID light between connector Ground and 1,2, 4, cranking: NO LIGHT
- wire check: checked resistance from 4 pin connector to ECM B5-7: values: 15, 20, 50 Ohm. High, possibly caused by crocodile clamps and very thin steel pin (for ECM plug). ????

Questions:
a) should NOID light light up with signals coming from ECM?
b) Is resistance in wire from 4 pin to ECM unusally high?
c) Should we see battery voltage on 3 pin no matter what ECM or sensors are doing?
d) essentially: are we not getting spark SIGNAL or problem in supplying ignition with POWER.

I need urgent suggestions what to check/do next?

walky_talky20
12-04-2010, 01:56 PM
Good Work. I have to look at the diagram again to see about the power for the ignition system. I'm out shopping now, actually reading this on a 11.6" Macbook Air. These little things are awesome BTW. Will chime in later tonight if somebody doesn't beat me to it.

Mmm. Loving this little keyboard...

walky_talky20
12-04-2010, 08:15 PM
Ok, the wire that should have power with the key on is the Black/Blue wire at the coils. Should be battery voltage with key in ON or START. It is powered via fuse #32. The MAF also gets power off this fuse, so you can check there as well - also the Black/Blue wire at the MAF connector.

As far as the 3 pin connector at the Power Output Stage. I am not sure what should be happening there. I'd have to look it up...

walky_talky20
12-05-2010, 04:48 PM
OK, just read the Bentley manual for the AFC (12v V6) ignition system so I can appropriately answer all your questions:

a)Yes. In the 4 pin connector on the Power Output Stage, pin 2 is ground. Pins 1,3,4 are the trigger signals from the ECM. During cranking you should get positive voltage pulse on these wires. So connecting your NOID light between those wires and ground should give you light output during cranking.

b) That resistance seems very high. The resistance between the 4 pin Power Output Stage connector, pins 1,3,4 and ECM pins B7,B6,B5 (respectively) should be pretty low. I'd say less than 1 ohm would be ideal. I think it is improbable to have more than 1 problem here, so I would disregard this for the time being and work on voltage to the coil primary first.

c) Yes. If fuse #32 is good, ignition is ON, and the coil's voltage supply wire is plugged in, you should have battery voltage at the Power Output Stage's 3 pin connector at all times. If you don't, this is your problem. You should then trace the circuit backwards until you find where you are losing the power. The next step back from the POS connector would the Coil's voltage supply connector. it is a 3 pin WHITE connector on the firewall, in the connector bracket next to the Knock Sensor, Crank Sensor, and Engine Speed sensor connectors. You can unplug that connector at the firewall and see if you have power with the key ON.

d) My best guess here is that you are not getting power to the ignition primary circuit (see answer "c" above). Verify that first.

walky_talky20
12-06-2010, 02:45 PM
How's it going with this?

vtraudt
12-06-2010, 04:11 PM
How's it going with this?

Not good.
Today came a new ignition control module in; will install tomorrow to see if that changes things.
Currently trying to read the wiring diagram.

With a noid light connected to ground and the 4 pin ICM, will the ECM signal (B5, B6, B7 on the ECM) light the noid when cranking? It did NOT last time I tried.

vtraudt
12-06-2010, 04:17 PM
[QUOTE=walky_talky20;5956282]

a)Yes. In the 4 pin connector on the Power Output Stage, pin 2 is ground. Pins 1,3,4 are the trigger signals from the ECM. During cranking you should get positive voltage pulse on these wires. So connecting your NOID light between those wires and ground should give you light output during cranking.

It did NOT light up the noid light when cranking. Had one pin of the noid on 1,3, or 4, the other pin on 2. Probably should try again, but using a ground-ground (battery neg). When cranking we DID see some voltage jump (still in mV range on display, slow DVM) with a DVM between 2 (ground) and signal 1,3 and 4.

vtraudt
12-06-2010, 04:24 PM
"If fuse #32 is good, ignition is ON, and the coil's voltage supply wire is plugged in, you should have battery voltage at the Power Output Stage's 3 pin connector at all times. If you don't, this is your problem. You should then trace the circuit backwards until you find where you are losing the power. The next step back from the POS connector would the Coil's voltage supply connector. it is a 3 pin WHITE connector on the firewall, in the connector bracket next to the Knock Sensor, Crank Sensor, and Engine Speed sensor connectors. You can unplug that connector at the firewall and see if you have power with the key ON."

These are the connectors, white one is the one. Do you know what pin should have +12?

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/IMG_5208.jpg

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 06:30 AM
I think I found my answer: all 3 pins should have +12V:
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/Ignitioncoilsupplyvoltagecheck.jpg
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/IMG_5208-1.jpg

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 06:41 AM
I will go down to the car around noon. First, check if the white connector (T3k in the Bentley manual page 1/3 diagram) has +12V. It should go right to a switchable (ignition key) line, but not sure where this IS (shows sw/bl (schwarz=black, blau=blue) wire, see diagram file ECM1_page_04. The connector should have ALWAYS +12V (with ign on), no matter what ECM or sensors or else do.
If that does NOT have power: what to check then?
If that HAS power: back to ICM. New/used ICM arrived, would plug that in.
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/ECM1_Page_04.jpg

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 06:45 AM
Independent of the above: with a Noid light connected to one of the 3 signal pins on the ICM (4 pin connector wire) and ground, shouldn't I get light flashing (with signal coming from ECU pin B5, B6, B7) with engine cranking? See diagram below:
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/ECM1_Page_05.jpg

walky_talky20
12-07-2010, 11:53 AM
It looks like you crank sensor and rpm sensor aren't plugged in all the way in your photo.

I've got a better wiring diagram, much more readable. In color even. PM me your email address and I'll send it to you later.

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah, this photo was taken with the crank connector not it.

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 12:41 PM
THE END - for now on this subject

Guys, I learned a lot.

Engine is running (transmission pissing).

What it was you ask? Glad you ask, love proofing myself to be an ass.

THE BLACK AND DARK BROWN (ICM) CONNECTORS WERE SWITCHED.

When talking about this possibility ("are all those connectors in the right place?") we answered to ourselves: they are coded, and the wires wouldn't reach any other way anyway!

More than 2 weeks (20 mile round trip each time) of 4 hours per day later, the problem is solved.

This is NOT how it is supposed to look like:
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/IMG_5217.jpg

vtraudt
12-07-2010, 05:04 PM
Engine started right away. For the first few minutes, there was a LOT of valve clatter (scary) that went away.
Since I installed a new radiator (the leak of the trans cooler allowed coolant to get into the trans and killed the wear parts in there (totally slipping), I only filled it with water; will run for a bit, then flush out and fill with coolant.
The transmission I installed was used. So I plan to check the fluid level. I decided to use the Mobil 1 synthetic ATF, NOT the German no name for $20/quart. A few weeks back when getting ready for the trans change, I read up on the various forums, and it seems that Mobil 1 (and some others mentioned as well) performs just a good. Ditto with coolant (the modern coolants are now ALL suitable for the alu engines (that was an issue in the past). The fancy Audi stuff's fancy (=expansive) chemistry allows for longer run times (100k vs. the usual 30k). Nothing else. Since coolant changes are part of the regimen, I don't mind the change in 2-3 years.

But regarding trans: I have lost (small leak over weak, today when starting (the one trans line was not seated properly) a ton of fluid. I do NOT know what fluid the previous owner used (it look reddish, but they probably all do?). Can I MIX the Mobil 1 with the remainder of what's in there?
Draining the fluid entirely out of the system could be accomplished by disconnecting the trans fluid line where it goes into the radiator, and then run the engine, which pumps it out (draining via drain plug in the pan only removes a very small portion). I have read that draining all is not necessarily a good thing, since some of the 'pigments' (from the friction discs) are actually helpful. I would prefer 'adding' over 'total change' if feasible.

Can I add to whatever fluid is in?

What is the process? Remove large plug in pan (I found the giant hex bit and was able (with a 6 ft extension) to break the plug loose. Snake a hose through (up and sideways through the 2 openings) and pump ATF in until it drips out. Put plug back in, run engine a bit (to suck fluid from shallow pan into the system), shift through gears. Fill until drip, repeat. Repeat process until no fluid can be added anymore.

Is there a temperature (warm up) needed? I remember reading to even monitor the trans fluid temp with VAGcom?

vtraudt
12-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Yesterday, I warmed up the trans to about 35 deg C, shifted 10 sec with foot on brake through all positions.
Engine running, trans in P.
Took fill plug out, inserted fill hose and pumped in until (and more) fluid tripped out. Inserted plug.
Trans moving a bit in 1st and reverse, but total slipping when shifting into 2nd.

Today, I only warmed up a bit (say 25), shifted through gears.
Engine running, trans in P.
Filled as much in a as possible (plenty of fluid flowing out). Plugged up.
Fluid Temp still low.

Test drive showed good torque in 1st and R, but total slip when shifting into 2nd.

Check transmission codes. Got:

Thursday,09,December,2010,16:29:52:22662

VCDS Version: Release 10.6.2



Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.LBL

Control Module Part Number: 8D0 927 156 J

Component and/or Version: AG5 01V 2.8l2V US D89

Software Coding: 00000

Work Shop Code: WSC 00000

VCID: 3469E80D2E47

1 Fault Found:



00652 - Gear Monitoring

27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent


Not sure when it was stored.

Note: trans in car was DNR code, installed DJP.
Do I need to 'recode' the trans in VAGcom?

What else could be wrong? Obviously, low trans fluid would be my guess, but with the procedure as described, there is no way to get more in.

Should I try to 'overfill' by adding as much fluid as possible by using a low temp (assuming that level is lowest with coldest temp (expansion with heat)?

walky_talky20
12-09-2010, 06:40 PM
I think the maximum you could possibly overfill it is about 1/2 qt or so. If you fill it cold, and run through the gears and top off again, that will be maximum fill. It will be slightly overfilled as it was not allowed to reach the fill temperature (40C, I believe).

Can you use the shifter to force it to stay in 1st, then move the shifter to 2nd, etc? To manually allow the upshift? Any difference?

EDIT: Bentley shows these possible causes for the 00652 code:

1 - Engine RPM, transmission input RPM, or transmission RPM faulty.
2 - ATF level not OK
3 - Wrong or faulty converter
4 - Clutch or brake slip
5 - Valve body or solenoid valves faulty

Hmm. So pretty much anything. I guess that isn't too helpful. Slightly more detail here:
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/00652

vtraudt
12-10-2010, 04:44 AM
What is the potential risk of overfill? Say 15 deg C (if I really hurry to start car, shift through gears, get out, lift car, get oil tray, remove plug, fiddle hose in, pump til overflow, plug up).

IIRM, I can manually only shift to 2 (not sure).

vtraudt
12-10-2010, 04:45 AM
I will look up and post the transmission code; not sure if I can get to the car this weekend.

I forgot: Is the transmission always starting from stop in 1st or 2nd gear? The slipping occurs when the first upshift takes place.

I forgot: Is the gear selector offering "2" or "1" (all the way back?

Depending on what shift the slipping occurs (1-2 or 2-3) this could help with the troubleshooting.

As I said, I went from a DRN (which according to my information was not used before 1998 in the A4) to a CJP (used in 1996 and 1978 cars).

Vin:
WAUEA88D0TA209419

Engine code (5th): A = 1997 SOHC; (1996: D (SOHC))
Model year: (10th): T = 1996

My built date is:
03/96

I checked 00652 in Bentley (link to pages for 00652)

http://s853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/Bentley%20Manual%20Prints/Transmisson%20error%20DTC%2000652%20P0732%20to%20P 0735/


It refers to error codes (OBDII speak I assume)
P0732
P0733
P0734
P0735
VAGcom does not seem to say which P073x it has found, or? (to narrow down the options).

P0732: engine rpm/trans input rpm/trans rpm faulty
P0732: ATF level not ok
P0732: faulty/wrong converter
P0732: clutch slip
P0732: valve body or solenoid valves faulty
P0732: wrong trans or engine control module

P0733: ditto

P0734: ditto

P0735: ditto plus Multi-Function Switch faulty

vtraudt
12-10-2010, 04:58 AM
Troubleshooting suggests to check the converter code.

There are two types of transmissions:
1. Transmissions with hydraulic control -E17-: The sensor for transmission RPM (inductive sensor) is secured to the bottom of the valve body.
2. Transmissions with hydraulic control -E18/2-: The sensor for transmission RPM (hall effect sensor) is secured to the transmission housing behind the valve body.

Can someone elaborate how I can check which one I have? It sound I have to get INTO the trans (no way!).

vtraudt
12-11-2010, 06:22 AM
Symptom: trans pulls in first and reverse, but slips as soon as shifting up.


Attempted fix: fill ATF per instructions (engine running, temp under 40 C, shifting through gears, overflowing fill tube).


Issues: Could a possible mismatch between TCM and trans cause such issue?


Problem: Car had DRN trans (not used in 1996, more a 1998 trans; must have been changed by previous owner). I replaced with CJP (used in 1996, 1997). Current TCM code is 8D0 927 156J (VAGcom read), softcode 00000


I had one error code (2 short test drives, may 2 miles total):
00652 - Gear Monitoring
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent


Rosstech Wiki has to say:
00652 - Gear Monitoring: Implausible Signal

Possible Causes

* Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) Level not OK
* Vehicle Speed Sensor (G68) dirty/faulty
o Impulse Wheel dirty or Installation faulty
* Gearbox Speed Sensor (G38) dirty/faulty
o Impulse Wheel dirty or Installation faulty
* Multi-Function Switch (F125) faulty (but not detected)
* Clutch or Valve Body faulty
* Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) Pump faulty


Possible Solutions

* Check Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) Level
* Check/Clean/Replace Vehicle Speed Sensor (G68)
* Check/Clean/Replace Gearbox Speed Sensor (G38)
* Check/Replace Multi-Function Switch (F125)
* Check/Replace Clutch and/or Valve Body

Special Notes

* The ratio of engine speed to gearbox output speed in the currently engaged gear is implausible.
* Slip rpm with torque converter lock-up clutch disengaged must be greater than stall speed.


With first (what gear is the car starting out in D?) and reverse gear pulling strong, but NO pull otherwise, can I rule out:
- ATF fluid?
- gear box speed sensor G38?
- vehicle speed sensor G68?
- clutch/valve body (assuming new trans worked fine before)?
- ATF pump faulty?


What to do next?


Checkout, add, update, correct (maybe with VAGcom reads from YOUR car) the info below for documentation sake.


Also found for this error:
P0733
00652
Gear 3 Incorrect Ratio
P0734
00652
Gear 4 Incorrect Ratio
P0735
00652
Gear 5 Incorrect Ratio



From Bentley:
1996 (my car):
8D0 927 156J
8D0 927 156F


1997 (donor car with CJP, and year DRN used):
8D0 927 156J


1998 (some DRN used):
8D0 927 156Q
8D0 927 156BQ
8D0 927 156BR
8D0 927 156P



1999 (DRN used): Bentley not showing the TCM code



2000 (some DRN used):
8D0 927 156AS
8D0 927 156AT


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/Audi28enginestransmissionTCMcodes.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/1996%20Audi%20A4%20V6%20auto/Calibration1.jpg

vtraudt
12-11-2010, 07:49 AM
Just thinking: Is it possible to hook up the trans fluid lines wrong going to the radiator?

cmurphy2266
12-11-2010, 07:51 AM
Are you giving it gas when you're cranking over the engine?

vtraudt
12-11-2010, 08:00 AM
Are you giving it gas when you're cranking over the engine?

No. Starts right up, no gas (now, after eliminating the error of the 2 connectors (ICM and some intake one; dark brown and black).

vtraudt
12-14-2010, 06:36 AM
I took the car out yesterday for another test drive (car was 50 deg, outside was 15 deg). Trans Code from last (00652 - Gear Monitoring 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent) erased.

VAGcom connected to see what trans is doing
- reverse and 1st working fine
- good torque (forward and reverse up very steep driveway)
- accelerating fine, shifts into 2nd
- stops pulling when shifting in 3rd
- doesn't feel like 'free revving' but barely any pull
- VAGcom shows solenoid 1 and 2 changing
- solenoid 3 never changes
- after 5 min or so (trans temp at ca. 50 deg C) VERY LITTLE PULL IN 1ST AND REVERSE.
- BARELY MADE IT BACK INTO GARAGE ON ALMOST LEVEL

Checked trans codes: 00652 - Gear Monitoring 27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent back again

Did output test:
Solenoid 1, 2, 3, 4 clicking (no click from 5 on)

Why is first, second and reverse first working, then die?
Why is 3rd (and up?) never working?
Is solenoid 3 supposed to move?

In what direction does the above point?
- fluid low, dirty filter, bad fluid (did not look bad)
- stuck valves (unknown how long donor car was sitting in yard)
- incompatible TCM/trans/ECM
- incompatible gear ratio
- torque converter
-
I checked again the amount of ATF I was able to get in:
2 quarts

ATF losses that occurred:
- removing trans from donor car, trans lines disconnected, fluid in radiator: estimate 0.5 quart
- some dripping over 3 weeks (estimate: < 0.5 quart)
- removed drain plug with engine not running (accident); estimate: 1 quart (???)
- spill from improper seated trans line to cooler: <1 quart

vtraudt
12-14-2010, 07:20 AM
Someone told me that the trans works to some extend even if the connectors (2 round plugs) are disconnected?

Is that the case?

If so, would this help with troubleshooting? If it works (say: 5th gear or whatever it uses without input from controller), it would point towards electrical (valve body, solenoids, TCM, ECM, sensors). If not (but supposed to), mechanical transmission issues (torque converter, filter, fluid, clutches, etc.)?