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View Full Version : Engine is really hard to turn over by hand.



EuroDriven
10-23-2010, 08:43 PM
I put brute rods into my engine myself, when the engine was on the stand, if I oiled the cylinder walls I would turn the crank by hand very easily with a breaker bar on the crank bolt. When I put the head/oil pan on, same thing.

I got the engine into the chassis a couple weeks ago, and today I go back to work on it. I get the timing belt and starter connected. I tapped the key to see that the engine would turn over, it did! Great...so I put the front end back together, and get everything connected and go to start it, and it starts for less then a second but then promptly died. The issue was that the wiring harness for the front plastic clip got wound around the fan, so I unwind and untangle everything. Nothing is severely damaged, but when I get everything sorted out and go tot start it...nothing. The solenoid just clicks. I take the front clip back off and the crank is amazingly hard to turn by hand.

At the beginning of the day it wasn't so bad...even when I got the timing belt on it seemed to turn fine. When putting the timing belt on it aligned the timing mark on the cam gear to the valve cover, and the mark on the crank pulley to the mark on the lower timing belt cover.

What is the issue!? It will have about a 50-90 degree patch in the rotation where I can turn it easier (not easy) then the rest, but every here the started can't turn it. I simply refuse to believe I did anything to the valves, but I don't know what the issue is. I tried everything I could think of. If this is something internal to the engine that has to do with my rod install I am going to be forced to sell off this project, so please help!

Car is a 1998 3071 1.8TQM fx400 brute rods.

Build:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/327743-1998-A4-1.8TQM-GT3071R-build-starting

John

Mike@PureMS
10-23-2010, 08:48 PM
Remove the spark plugs and try again.

EuroDriven
10-23-2010, 09:50 PM
Remove the spark plugs and try again.

Did it. I tried to see if some WD-40 down in the cylinders would help, but it didn't. (only volatile thing I had around)
First thing I thought of was compression. I re-oiled the cams to see if that was it but it's not.

guy022077
10-24-2010, 06:12 AM
remove the starter and try again.

black99.5a4
10-24-2010, 06:25 AM
are you sure the trans is in neutral when you're trying to turn the motor?

EuroDriven
10-24-2010, 09:51 AM
are you sure the trans is in neutral when you're trying to turn the motor?

Yup.


remove the starter and try again.

Try what again? The starter was never off, I just connected it electrically.

terraflata
10-24-2010, 10:03 AM
I had trouble turning my engine over on the stand because I had inversed a rod cap, but seeing as you didnt have this issue on the stand I cannot be sure what is causing your issue. does it basically bind partway through the rotation?

black99.5a4
10-24-2010, 10:16 AM
turn it one way and then the opposite and see if its easier to a point.. you might of set your timing off and bent a few valves, now you're not holding compression and while tryign to hand crank it, you're binding on the valves.

guy022077
10-24-2010, 10:32 AM
i thought the starter was off and you put it on, maybe it slung out and got stuck when you tried to start it.

EuroDriven
10-24-2010, 10:47 AM
turn it one way and then the opposite and see if its easier to a point.. you might of set your timing off and bent a few valves, now you're not holding compression and while tryign to hand crank it, you're binding on the valves.

That's what I was thinking but the timing was dead on when we got the T-belt on, it feels easier for about 90 degrees or less of the cycle but then it gets very hard to turn. I am leaning into the breaker bar with my body weight. (2 foot bar, I am 230) Would I be able to even turn it if a valve was in the way? And how can I check without pulling everything apart?


I had trouble turning my engine over on the stand because I had inversed a rod cap, but seeing as you didnt have this issue on the stand I cannot be sure what is causing your issue. does it basically bind partway through the rotation?

On the stand and before all this, it wasn't nearly this hard, I am fearing it is a valve issue....

Is there a way to have it looked timed via the marks, but it is really like 1 cycle out of timing?

black99.5a4
10-24-2010, 01:51 PM
pull the coils and plugs.. i think you have and its still just as hard.

I would say you are hitting a valve just right to bend it slowly if you're still slowly getting it to crank with that 2 foot bar.

How far apart was your head? you might of stuck your cams in 180* out, or your cam gear 180* degrees out. If you've replaced the head, you might of bought one with a bent valve.

You can do a compression test if you have 0 compression, you can all but blame it on the head.. but you'll need the starter in the car.. put foot on gas while cranking, get out and read gauge.

EuroDriven
10-24-2010, 02:13 PM
pull the coils and plugs.. i think you have and its still just as hard.

I did, still just as hard.


I would say you are hitting a valve just right to bend it slowly if you're still slowly getting it to crank with that 2 foot bar.

How far apart was your head? you might of stuck your cams in 180* out, or your cam gear 180* degrees out. If you've replaced the head, you might of bought one with a bent valve.

Head was never apart, took out the 10 head bolts, pulled it off, put it aside, put it back on.


You can do a compression test if you have 0 compression, you can all but blame it on the head.. but you'll need the starter in the car.. put foot on gas while cranking, get out and read gauge.

The issue is the car won't turn over. The starter doesn't have enough torque to spin the engine.

Since the cam gear > timing gear isn't 1:1 could I have put the cam gear a single rotation out of timed? I wouldn't think so since the cam gear is the bigger gear.

black99.5a4
10-24-2010, 02:34 PM
you can align the crank pulley twice while turning the motor and cam gear only once.. the other time the timing mark on the crank lines up, the cam is 180* out.

I would pull the VC, try to get the cams to the timing point and see if the arrows on the back of the cams, match the spots on the rear cam sprokets.

chris164935
10-24-2010, 03:00 PM
No metal tapping noises were heard during all this?
Is the clutch pedal stiff?

There was a guy with a similar problem on Vortex; turns out his pistons were hitting the oil squirters.

black99.5a4
10-24-2010, 03:05 PM
they would break off as soon as he cranked it over, if the motor started at all.. A guy on vortex did this buy installing his pistons backwards. Also had middle intake valve indents in each one.

You did stick the valve relief on the piston and both rod bearing tangs on the same side of the block, which would be on the intake manifold side.

EuroDriven
10-25-2010, 12:40 PM
I just ordered 2 head bolt sets from ECS via UPS 2nd day air so that I can try to pull the head this weekend and see if I messed anything up in the top end...

I haven't seen any interest from anyone who would wanna buy this off of me so I might as well dump more money into it.

-John

guy022077
10-25-2010, 01:22 PM
2 head bolt sets? no arp, whats up with that?

chris164935
10-25-2010, 07:01 PM
I just ordered 2 head bolt sets from ECS via UPS 2nd day air so that I can try to pull the head this weekend and see if I messed anything up in the top end...

I haven't seen any interest from anyone who would wanna buy this off of me so I might as well dump more money into it.

-John
OUCH! Are there no local VW or Audi dealerships? It's only like ~$40 for a head bolt set from the dealer... And no 2nd day air shipping charge!

What price were you looking for for the car?

onemoremile
10-25-2010, 11:16 PM
Wow. I got head bolts, head gasket, and valve cover gaskets for 94 from the dealer. List is 156 or 158.

prodrive
10-25-2010, 11:55 PM
is your clutch new ?

brockallentaylo
10-26-2010, 12:09 AM
is your clutch new ?

Good point, flywheel bolts could be too long if so.

Rickz96
10-26-2010, 04:55 AM
Did you turn the bottom rotating assembly 360 degrees and it was bind free before the head install? And rotate the entire engine at least 3 full turns after the timing belt install? If so, then you say it started and the promptly died right? I would say it is time to open it up and find out where the problem is. I would start by taking the head off and seeig if the bottom will rotate, if not take the oil pan off and find out what is binding her up.

EuroDriven
10-26-2010, 06:29 AM
Clutch is brand new but the engine was turning fine beforehand so it can't be this.

I turned the bottom end at least 3 or 4 full rotations while it was in the car and it was fine, after for research and talking to people I am thinking it has something to do with the rod bearings, I noticed when I was putting it all together that the crank got a lot tighter when the rod caps were torqued down. I also used bare hands to handle the bearings and only put a thin coating of oil on during assembly so I may have bound something up. So I guess I will be pulling it apart again this weekend to check it out. I might order a set of new bearings as well just in case.

BTW 2 sets of head bolts and 2 day shipping = $44.30

Why do I need ARP Head bolts? I have never seen significant proof to say you need anything other then OEM head bolts. I have only seen 1 case I believe where a head lifted off the gasket.

prodrive
10-26-2010, 06:49 AM
There is no need for head bolts if you are under 550hp range ,but a good set of tangless coated bearings would be nice.

guy022077
10-26-2010, 08:37 AM
Clutch is brand new but the engine was turning fine beforehand so it can't be this.

I turned the bottom end at least 3 or 4 full rotations while it was in the car and it was fine, after for research and talking to people I am thinking it has something to do with the rod bearings, I noticed when I was putting it all together that the crank got a lot tighter when the rod caps were torqued down. I also used bare hands to handle the bearings and only put a thin coating of oil on during assembly so I may have bound something up. So I guess I will be pulling it apart again this weekend to check it out. I might order a set of new bearings as well just in case.

BTW 2 sets of head bolts and 2 day shipping = $44.30

Why do I need ARP Head bolts? I have never seen significant proof to say you need anything other then OEM head bolts. I have only seen 1 case I believe where a head lifted off the gasket.


i only suggested it because i thought stock bolts were more that 44 bucks. and if you need to remove the head again youll be out 3 sets of head bolts. thats almost a set of ARP's

EuroDriven
10-26-2010, 11:45 AM
i only suggested it because i thought stock bolts were more that 44 bucks. and if you need to remove the head again youll be out 3 sets of head bolts. thats almost a set of ARP's

You can reuse ARP bolts? I thought all head bolts were stretch bolts.

guy022077
10-26-2010, 12:06 PM
arp's are not stretch bolts, so long as they are installed correctly you can use them over and over. and you can certainly mess up and reuse them without worrying or needing to replace them. i assumed thats why most people go to them.

Haenszel20v
10-26-2010, 12:17 PM
I turned the bottom end at least 3 or 4 full rotations while it was in the car and it was fine, after for research and talking to people I am thinking it has something to do with the rod bearings, I noticed when I was putting it all together that the crank got a lot tighter when the rod caps were torqued down. I also used bare hands to handle the bearings and only put a thin coating of oil on during assembly so I may have bound something up. So I guess I will be pulling it apart again this weekend to check it out. I might order a set of new bearings as well just in case.

As I said on rocdubs a month ago and you brushed me off, before you put it in the car, where it would have been a MUCH easier issue to fix.


your rod caps are on backwards/wrong rods.


Or you didn't assembly lube them. You shoudl be able to turn the crank by grabbing it with your hands, no need for a breaker bar.

Dan[FN]6262
10-26-2010, 12:28 PM
oh, snap.

EuroDriven
10-26-2010, 12:56 PM
As I said on rocdubs a month ago and you brushed me off, before you put it in the car, where it would have been a MUCH easier issue to fix.

Like I said a month ago, once I lubed the cylinder walls it was very easy to turn by hand. Also, I DID assembly lube them, apparently just not enough. I double and triple checked all the rod caps while assembling and they were correct, I only did a single rod at a time so there is no way caps go switched, as well have having unique IDs stamped into both the rod and the cap to check.

I didn't "brush you off" I just checked the thread and I did respond to your comment. I didn't state then I lubed everything because I knew that I did lube them. People make mistakes...chill dude.

guy022077
10-26-2010, 01:09 PM
when an "oh snap" goes wrong ^^

EuroDriven
10-26-2010, 06:49 PM
He pointed out on rocdubs after my response assembly lube is thicker. I wasn't aware of this, so I ordered new rod bearings and assembly lube, I thought it would be fine lubing it with just clean motor oil. This is only my first time doing it so...my bad. Let's see what it all looks like when I open it up.

Dan[FN]6262
10-27-2010, 06:53 AM
I lubed the shit out of my rod bearings with 30W non detergent oil, mine worked fine. all my friends that have built multiple engines use the same stuff and they have never had any problems

EuroDriven
10-27-2010, 07:20 AM
I used 5W-30. I didn't know any better. Guess it might have been too thin.

EuroDriven
11-01-2010, 07:23 AM
I took everything apart on Friday. Cylinder #1 journal is "scored". It looks etched, just a different finish, but you cannot feel an edge or a dip. Cylinder #2, 3 and 4 journals all look the same as when I took it apart, I took pics of the first and second journals to post, but they are still on the camera. Installed new rod bearings and LOADED it up with wheel bearing grease I had (Eric and Chris confirmed it was safe to use) and I was amazed at how easy it was to turn after everything was torqued.

I went back and checked all the bolts like 2 or 3 times each bolt because I couldn't believe how easy it was to turn. I got it started up at 12:30 am on Saturday night (Sunday morning). The idle was not stable but that is likely another issue, time to pull an axle off the parts car and start tweaking to get this drivable.

haenszel, you were right, it was an issue with lube. I did lube it before, but being a noob at all of this, obviously not enough. I never felt what "easy" was when I took the engine apart and didn't have any experience with this before hand, so it was hard to judge when initially assembling.

Let my mistakes teach anybody who hasn't done this before.

guy022077
11-01-2010, 08:27 AM
cool, glad to hear something good.

adema69
11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
sucks