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vtraudt
08-21-2010, 08:09 PM
1998 A4 1.8T AEB engine.

Getting ready for the T3 install. 50 trip, .48 AR. Goal: 350 whp.
Currently: 18 psi at 4000 rpm with custom K04 like turbo, TAP stage 2 ("12.5 psi") chipped ECU, stock injectors, FMIC, Carbonio, test pipe, clean exhaust, SB stage 3 clutch done.
3-5 bar AFPR and Walbro 255 standing by, have 'trained' stock (non chipped) ECU standing by. Licensed Rosstech VAGcom.

Need to determine injector size and start looking for them. 440cc? Else? What donor cars?

Also: Is MAF upgrade a must? Saw posts suggesting VR6 MAF (any?). What happens on stock MAF? Worst case that it will choke the engine and not get to max power?

External Wastegate.
Manual Boost Control?

I would love to find a standard off the shelf tune to start with, and someone to chip my stock ECU with it.

nunya
08-21-2010, 10:28 PM
1998 A4 1.8T AEB engine.

Getting ready for the T3 install. 50 trip, .48 AR. Goal: 350 whp.
Currently: 18 psi at 4000 rpm with custom K04 like turbo, TAP stage 2 ("12.5 psi") chipped ECU, stock injectors, FMIC, Carbonio, test pipe, clean exhaust, SB stage 3 clutch done.
3-5 bar AFPR and Walbro 255 standing by, have 'trained' stock (non chipped) ECU standing by. Licensed Rosstech VAGcom.

Need to determine injector size and start looking for them. 440cc? Else? What donor cars?

Also: Is MAF upgrade a must? Saw posts suggesting VR6 MAF (any?). What happens on stock MAF? Worst case that it will choke the engine and not get to max power?

External Wastegate.
Manual Boost Control?

I would love to find a standard off the shelf tune to start with, and someone to chip my stock ECU with it.

The person who makes the tune determines all the things you are asking. Give Unitronic, Tapp, etc a ring and they will tell you what their tunes require.

--dillon

Seerlah
08-21-2010, 11:33 PM
If looking for 350whp, you would want to look into upgrading your rods first. Torque numbers aren't far behind your hp numbers, and the stock rods have a limit. With the AEB, you will need the proper MAF that the file is written for. As mentioned above, have a talk with whatever tuner you plan on going with. He will tell you what injectors, MAF and fpr you will require. But be sure to upgrade rods if looking into pushing your application for 350whp.

Also, many of the things will need replacement. You can keep your afpr and Walbro fuel pump. But just about everything else will need to be replaced. You will do a new custom intake (the Carbino will say bye bye), ideally want a full 3" exhaust (if keeping your exhaust system, you will at least need a custom downpipe fabbed up), larger intercooler, etc. You don't need to have a manual boost controller if running external or internal wastegate. It doesn't matter. You can still use your n75 to control boost to whatever the tune is written for (more than likely wil be 21psi) with proper spring inside the wastegate (internal wastegate is already set at around 1 bar......not sure exactly what pressure) or have the turbo run off the wastegate spring pressure. Manual boost controllers are just something people like to do to cancel out the n75 and control boost settings themselves. I would also suggest removing the n75 and going with an ebc/mbc. Plus you won't need to incorporate it into your custom intake.

vtraudt
09-16-2010, 05:48 AM
The person who makes the tune determines all the things you are asking. Give Unitronic, Tapp, etc a ring and they will tell you what their tunes require.

--dillon

Is "Tapp" = TAP? The current ECU has the TAP stage 2 chip "12.5 psi - +50HP". But any attempt to contact TAP failed. I assume they are out of business. Anybody now if someone is still dealing with their chips/tunes? And if so: do they offer a chip/tune that is more geared towards K04, FMRC, freeflow exhaust?

vtraudt
09-16-2010, 06:20 AM
If looking for 350whp, you would want to look into upgrading your rods first. Torque numbers aren't far behind your hp numbers, and the stock rods have a limit. With the AEB, you will need the proper MAF that the file is written for. As mentioned above, have a talk with whatever tuner you plan on going with. He will tell you what injectors, MAF and fpr you will require. But be sure to upgrade rods if looking into pushing your application for 350whp.

Also, many of the things will need replacement. You can keep your afpr and Walbro fuel pump. But just about everything else will need to be replaced. You will do a new custom intake (the Carbino will say bye bye), ideally want a full 3" exhaust (if keeping your exhaust system, you will at least need a custom downpipe fabbed up), larger intercooler, etc. You don't need to have a manual boost controller if running external or internal wastegate. It doesn't matter. You can still use your n75 to control boost to whatever the tune is written for (more than likely wil be 21psi) with proper spring inside the wastegate (internal wastegate is already set at around 1 bar......not sure exactly what pressure) or have the turbo run off the wastegate spring pressure. Manual boost controllers are just something people like to do to cancel out the n75 and control boost settings themselves. I would also suggest removing the n75 and going with an ebc/mbc. Plus you won't need to incorporate it into your custom intake.

I do NOT want to change the internals. My power goal was set based on what I thought I had seen elsewhere, that the AEB internal are good for 350 whp? If not, what IS the limit (= my power goal).

Intake: Similar to the above: Carbonio, FMRC (2.5 piping, FMRC 20x6x2.75) will stay.
Exhaust: Similar to the above: Miltek (for me the perfect sound) will stay, 'sport' cat, except test pipe modification or replacement as needed to bolt onto new turbo
Intercooler: will stay


In other words: my upgrade will be limited to:
- new turbo
- manifold T3 (with external wastegate if advisable)
- injectors as needed
- I was told I need a intake pressure sensor (my model is NOT drive by wire (some call it drive by cable or DBC); using MAF only)
- wideband O2 if needed/advisable
- Throttle body or larger/different MAF sensor (thought I read somewhere)
- recalibrated wastegate actuator/spring (as you mentioned) or external MBC or EBC (pumbing complicated?)
- tune (either chip to go on trained 2nd stock ECU (preferred) or replace TAP chipped ECU (would like to keep that as 'spare'/fall back); alternatively piggyback control (Haltech 500 Sprint for example).

With that said, it sounds I have to revise my power goal. Is 300 whp realistic?

Also with that said, I might rephrase my question to adjust to the 2 basic upgrade options I seem to have with my limitations above:

a) Chip/tune: from a cost perspective, only 'off the shelf' tunes/chips seems doable (custom tune chip $500 and above with retuning based on VAGcom logs? Or am I off with this impression? Are their tuners around that custom tune to the specific setup/modification, maybe even fine tune with dyno, for under $500?). The only tune I have read up on a little is the PC16, which might be a reasonable match to my setup. Not sure what power/torque level are possible, and what shape the torque curve would have (high RPM peak power vs. mid range torque?)

b) Piggyback: Much higher initial investment, but tuning and adjusting to further mods in our hand (vs. off the shelf stuffs that fits 'closesly', retunes only with cumbersome back and forth shipping of ECU and resoldering, feedback through VAGcom logs). Then: external EBC, intake pressure sensor, suitable injectors, wideband O2, turbo, T3 manifold, downpipe to fit turbo. Turbo maybe 50 series, .48?

Does that make sense?

What COULD I expect for a) and b)?

With 2 possible

T0mat3
09-16-2010, 08:38 AM
Tapp isnt out of business. Here's his site ( Tapp is his last name, not the name of his company.) http://www.eurodyne.ca/

grillhands
09-16-2010, 08:53 AM
I dont think you can get 350whp out of a T3. You are going to need something bigger.

FasterA4ThanUrs
09-16-2010, 11:29 AM
You do not need to upgrade internals with a 50 trim .48a/r.... It spools quick and will hold until your redline. On a Unitronics 415cc tune it should make a little bit over 300awhp. TAP is some chip company that also sells some other stuff i beleive. Chris Tapp tunes for Eurodyne as said above, Tap and Tapp are by no means the same. You WILL NOT be using the carbonio intake, or any intake setup for the k03 or k04. Trying to get it to fit with an aftermarket exhaust mani and external wastgate would be just about impossible, not to mention a MUCH bigger turbo than the k03. You will need a "vr6" maf housing with Uni, and Eurodyne too if I'm not mistaken. You wont be using a map sensor, theres noway to get your aeb ecu to read that. The only thing a wideband will do for you is tell you your a/f ratios, again theres noway to get your ecu to read that and make adjustments based on it. A pc-16 tune will not be what you want to run with a 50 trim by any means. Your exhaust is fine for a t3/t04, but youll need a new downpipe v-band flanged to hook up to the turbo. you'll either need an open dump (recommended) or recirc it into the dp. Tuning will run $700 to $900 dollars depending on company. Uni doesnt do anything bigger than 415cc for the aeb, which you can use 415cc genesis's or 440cc green giants for. Eurodyne offers bigger tunes, but i doubt it makes much more power on a 50 trim, I think 350awhp is prolly the max of a 50trim on a 1.8t, especially with a .48a/r. BTW, I'm selling 4 new bosch green giants and a custom aluminum vr6 maf housing. PM me if you need them, or need any help with the build.

vtraudt
09-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Thanks FasterA4than"mine" for the substantive reply, it helps a great deal.

Turbo: I am NOT set on 50 trim, .48 A/R (but read that is seems a good compromise for our AEB for midrange torque (spool up, early boost, midrange power, not totally dead at high rpm), only on T3T4 style. If high torque at 3000-5000 RPM is the goal, what T3 would you put on? A friend (who is my T3 source and will put the turbo together) suggested to use the next step up from the 440cc (say: 550cc) for the (well not so BigTurbo) turbo (I was about to buy your green giants, see our PMs from around 8/30, and may still do so)

It would be great if there were a file that uses 440cc injectors and can be used on our setup (load the file, get your 440cc, enjoy current power).
BTW our custom K04 has:
K04 – optimized by Turbo Concepts
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 41.0 mm
Exducer: 54.0 mm
Tip height: 5.6 mm
Blades: 6 double,staged, extended tip
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 44.5 mm
Exducer: 40.44 mm
Blades: 12
10 degree clip
Compressor housing shape-matched to larger compressor wheel and blade shape.
Compressor outlet flow optimized.
Turbine inlet flow optimized.
Calibrated waste gate actuator

For comparison, here are the dimensions of a K04-015:
K4-015
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 35mm
Exducer: 50mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 42mm
Tip height: 6.4mm
Blades: 11

TAP is just what is currently chipped (was on the car). With the custom K04, it makes 18.5 psi (peak) at 4000 rpm (84 degree) (10 psi at 2400, 10 psi at 6000).

The PC16 file would be an inexpensive (relatively) plug and play way of using the potential of the CURRENT (K04) setup much better (likely) than the current TAP chip; by no means a tune for the next turbo (but may buy us time and fun now maybe until spring?). In the real world (not the advertisement language), what can be expected from the PC16 on my (K04, etc.) setup (plus correct injectors - I think the PC16 calls for 318cc (TT225?) run at 3 bar (via AFPR). I have never seen boost curves, dyno's etc for the file. The manufacturer says they are 'old' and don't have updated material. Elsewhere I wrote its a 'screamer' file (high power at high RPM, not much down low and midrange - not exactly what I want).

Not sure why the intake has to be changed (it was on the car when we got it; I would never shell out 300 bucks for some cosmetic carbon fiber stuff). Some plumbing, yes. Either way: intake is a cone filter, located in that area, plumbed somehow to the intake side of the turbo, right?

The MAP stuff came from tuner (tuning done based on VAGcom logs) demanding intake pressure log (via 'loggable boost gauge' for example); not sure why drive by wire is important, but it was mentioned to me that my car does NOT have DBW, rather DBC (which impacts the tuning how?). And piggyback (Haltech) would use pressure (I am told).

VR6 MAF (the housing, or also the sensor?) was mentioned in the sticky elsewhere (or Lightning? Mustang?), I will PM you.

Open dump: I find the Audi setup clever, actually using the dump (vs. 'wasting' it); I thought open dump is for show (=noise) only (and maybe for simplicity).

Wideband: I thought the current O2 is too crude to provide decent information; and isn't the A/F ration one of the most important values to for tuning?

Tuning: For the $700-$900 you mention, I would consider EuroDyne Maestro, invest in learning, and be good for any projects come along in the future (this is the first, but the last Audi we will turbo up, and than you may me 'slowerA4/A6mine'; I am still sitting on a box of 11 turbos (from several K26, K27 to Schnitzer to really big stuff). I am sure (hopefully?) they could set me up with a decent base to start (440cc, 50 trim T3?).

Again: 50 trim, .48 A/R is just my interpretation of a t3t4 with good midrange power (vs. high rpm screamer that such (instead of blows) at 3000 rpm). Open to suggestions (and boost curves, and dyno charts applied on 1.8Ts).

Lazer Viking
09-16-2010, 06:34 PM
i dont even know where to start with this.

you can make 350 on a 50trim, but you could potentially put a rod through the block.. you seem to have a goal set for 350, why not just put rods in it and get to your goal safetly ?

440's arent going to get you to 350, go with 630's
your tuner will also dictate what maf you have to use, if you use the 3" vr6 maf you retain your factory sensor, pretty much anything else will require you to rewire to another sensor (lightning maf, v8 audi maf).

maestro suite for the aeb (me5.9) i have heard is essentially no different then an off the shelf tune, you cant controll much of anything (like you can for the me7), but it does allow you to log fairly easily

also with the 50trim you wont hit boost before 4000rpm's in either housing

vtraudt
09-16-2010, 07:23 PM
Wow.
Internals remain off limits, so goal needs to be adjusted accordingly: what can AEB handle with T3, with 3-5k power in mind?
ECU is also a given, so I have to live with the limitations (DBC, no intake pressure, etc; in case of Maestro me5.9 (or the alternaives: off the shelf T3 file/chip with corresponding injector (with the lower goal: still 630cc or 440cc?), or Haltech piggy back?

FasterA4ThanUrs
09-16-2010, 08:11 PM
Ok, I originally went with the .48a/r because I wanted an earlier spooling street setup that still made decent power. You can expect the 48 to be spooled by 4k at the latest and the 63 about 500rpm later if not a little more. The 48 is definitly a good mix of power and early spool. If you cant really rev out past 6500-7k than whats the point of having a turbo that doesnt make power till creeping up on 5k, thats how I always saw it. I wouldnt want to have a car that only made power for a short amount of time. Its like running my 35r on a stock valved head. Yea it will make tons of power, but only for a short time in each gear, so its not efficiently usable.
As for tuning. I believe the .48a/r t3/t04 is capable of a little over 300awhp with the Uni 415cc tune, like I said. There is more power to be had out of it on a bigger tune, but I cant really see it making much more than 350awhp and that would be on like 630's, which Uni doesnt offer for the AEB. I'm guessing Eurodyne/Tapp has a 550cc tune for the AEB? If so, I'd expect to make more than 330awhp on the turbo in question.
Intake. If you plan on running a top mount exhaust manifold, (turbo sits on top) then there really isnt any way you would be able to get an intake like the Carbonio or the Evoms in there. Not to mention that the 50trim has a 3 inch compressor inlet and you dont really want to be sucking air through smaller piping than the inlet is, its only causing the turbo to choke. Which is also why I dont understand the point in using a VR6 maf housing as its only 2.75" inner diameter. I dont remember what size piping the carbonio is, but I dont think its 3". Also if you decide to run an open dump setup, it would def be in the way as well. Here's a pic of my car when i was doing the 50trim build. As you can see, there really isnt enough room for your intake box, filter, piping, and maf all in there. It is very tricky to even get a inlet pipe that clears inbetween the compressor inlet and the headlight housing. I ended up running my intake setup straight down from the turbo toward the ac compressor and belt, which I removed. The second pic is of the 90 degree bend i used to make that possible. Its the only one I found that cleared the headlight and I am also selling if you're interested. Facelift headlights are much smaller and easier to work with when it comes to running intake piping. I ended up getting them too lol.
http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx243/FasterA4ThanUrs/t3.jpg
http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx243/FasterA4ThanUrs/b7f67b6a.jpg
Open dump. It sounds much better than a recirced dumptube, and gets rid of the excess gasses much quicker and more efficiently. If you decide to recirc you will end up regretting it. And if you ever go bigger turbo you will likely need to have the dump recirc cut off your downpipe and a patch welded over the hole like I did. The recirc tube did not reach my wastegate and didnt clear between the wheel well and hotside on my new 35r. Also you say "you find the audi setup clever" Im not sure what you mean by this but dont confuse internal wastegate with external. Internals obv dump inside the turbine housing and external wg's obv dont. Its your choice whether to route your wg back into the exhaust or not with an external.
MAF. When they say you need a VR6 maf, they only mean the housing. But in my case with my current setup, I use a custom SCT "ford lightning" maf that is 4" inner diameter and has a completely different sensor in it than my stock one. I had to wire the new maf into my maf harness.
MAP sensor. The AEB's are WAY less "loggable" than the newer dbw cars. This is solely due to the fact that the AEB's ecu doesnt see any real afr's and is only going on the MAF's input to adjust timing and fuel trim. Shitty but true. Theres no adding a MAP sensor to an aeb ecu.
Wideband. Your right that the afr is HUGE in tuning, which is why most tuners will have an aftermarket wideband like aem or zeintronics installed when they are writing the tunes, so they can keep an eye on how the car is running. Its not a bad idea to have one so you can keep an eye on your afr's, but if you buy an off the shelf tune, its not completely necessary.
Tuning. I think that Eurodyne is a good option due to Maestro, but Unitronics is also offering the UniTune Suite, which is supposed to be very similar in that you can do logs and tweak your own tune. Keep in mind I am not a fan of Unitronics customer service and attitude toward their clientele. With the exception of Mike Shmiegel (the part-owner), I think they are all a bunch of money hungry lying asses that dont care if they send you a box full of dog sh1t as long as they got there $890. That being said, obv I went to Chris Tapp's tune and havent looked back.
PC-16. I never had this file when I had my k04, but its a viable step in the power climbing staircase. As I'm told, I believe it offers around 225awhp, fun and respectable for such a tiny little turbo. I'm not positive on the injectors it uses, but the tt225 ones does ring a bell. I do believe that its an expensive little upgrade once all is said and done. I might rather just hold out a few months until you can swap to the BT. Have you ever considered an eliminator setup instead of the 50trim. Will make almost the same power and cost a good deal less to setup due to the lack of supporting mods needed. Now, keep in mind, I am the first one to trash talk an elim setup due to the fact that getting the full potential out of them requires buying stuff you just cant use with a bt setup. And knowing that most people get bored with elims and decide to go bigger eventually, whats the point in spending the same money multiple times. I mean look at me, I never did an elim, but I went through just about every other step possible on the way. It all started with an APR chip, Milltek exhaust, dv, and intake. Then I went k04 with Giac and a Labree hfc. Then the 50 trim with all supporting mods and Uni. Now I'm on a 35r with Chris Tapp tune, built stroker motor, 1000cc injectors, and just bought a fully built valved and cammed head. Ive spent money on the same things quite a few times and I'm sure I will eventually be bored with a little over 500awhp at some point and will either go full standalone or just focus on my 5.0 dragster.
I'm not sure if theres anything I missed, but hope I've helped so far.

FasterA4ThanUrs
09-16-2010, 08:26 PM
you can make 350 on a 50trim, but you could potentially put a rod through the block.. you seem to have a goal set for 350, why not just put rods in it and get to your goal safetly ?
440's arent going to get you to 350, go with 630's


Not impossible, but also not very likely. The onset of torque in a t3/t04 is pretty smooth and gradual compared to a gt series turbo due to it being a journal bearing CHRA rather than a ball bearing. Its pretty unlikely for that turbo, especially with a .48a/r to snap a rod. Yes it is at the limit of power level for the stock rods, but he should be fine.
Agreed that 630's will make more power obv.

ricekikr
09-16-2010, 10:58 PM
For reference here's my setup:
Garrett 50trim .48 a/r.
ATP clone
2.5inch piping
Precision 39mm wastegate dumped back to DP
Precicion 650hp intercooler (Cold side always remains ambient temp, haven't brought it to the track yet, lets see if it keeps cool after a few laps)
siemens 630cc (perfect @boost, suck @idle. Needs more tuning @idle)
self-tune (using AEM F/IC) - I'm a first-time tuner. Tuning wasn't hard at all. AFRs are rock-steady @boost.
AEM wideband
Forge DV

Heres my experience:

After the install I don't have any regrets, well maybe except for the injectors (tuning-wise). I think I got the turbo right the first time, for me this is the ideal turbo, I'm more into road racing, not drag racing. Currently only running it on wastegate spring(15psi), because I'm still waiting on new tires and brakes to arrive. I spool to 14psi@intake manifold@around 3750rpm. But I'd bet it could be @20psi@4000rpm. Lag isn't terrible. When I shift I'm always on-boost.

Best part about the 50trim .48 is if you want more power@topend, all you have to do is buy a .63a/r exhaust housing.

Re injectors: With the siemens 630cc, the injector duty is @56%@redline@13-14psi.

But like they said, the injectors/maf size/etc are really up-to your chip of choice, unless you plan to go custom. So pick your turbo then pick your tune then buy whatever the tune calls for.

Hope this helps.

vtraudt
09-17-2010, 06:58 AM
For reference here's my setup:
Garrett 50trim .48 a/r.
ATP clone
2.5inch piping
Precision 39mm wastegate dumped back to DP
Precicion 650hp intercooler (Cold side always remains ambient temp, haven't brought it to the track yet, lets see if it keeps cool after a few laps)
siemens 630cc (perfect @boost, suck @idle. Needs more tuning @idle)
self-tune (using AEM F/IC) - I'm a first-time tuner. Tuning wasn't hard at all. AFRs are rock-steady @boost.
AEM wideband
Forge DV

Heres my experience:

After the install I don't have any regrets, well maybe except for the injectors (tuning-wise). I think I got the turbo right the first time, for me this is the ideal turbo, I'm more into road racing, not drag racing. Currently only running it on wastegate spring(15psi), because I'm still waiting on new tires and brakes to arrive. I spool to 14psi@intake manifold@around 3750rpm. But I'd bet it could be @20psi@4000rpm. Lag isn't terrible. When I shift I'm always on-boost.

Best part about the 50trim .48 is if you want more power@topend, all you have to do is buy a .63a/r exhaust housing.

Re injectors: With the siemens 630cc, the injector duty is @56%@redline@13-14psi.

But like they said, the injectors/maf size/etc are really up-to your chip of choice, unless you plan to go custom. So pick your turbo then pick your tune then buy whatever the tune calls for.

Hope this helps.

ricekikr: IT HELPS A LOT, thank you! (I am sure I have and are annoying a bunch of people with my anal questions; but that's what you do when you are stupid, know about it but want to learn).

For my goals: driveable, midrange torque, the 50 series, .48 A/R seems right; also not overburdening the AEB block (and no intentions at this point to build an engine). I am neither drag nor road racing (or any racing for that matter; just like cars that pull strong).

With that said, and picking on your "sucks at idle": Am I better of with 440cc tune/injectors? I would assume 630cc will run at really low duty cycle at idle, making it touchy to tune for smooth idle? And that is more important to me than cranking a few more HP out at 7000 RPM. My turbo man suggested 550cc. Would I really be limited with 440cc injectors (leaning out at high RPM?)

With my current setup (TAP chip (that's NOT Chris Tapp!)), I peak at 18.5 psi (84 degree) at 4000 rpm (10 psi at 2200, 10 psi at 6000; both of those I hope to get up higher a bit; wish it could hold 15 psi to 6000). Lag is more than on the stock K03 (check my geometry, it does not tell me that much), but power is much higher (than stock turbo with TAP chip, and stock turbo with stock ECU) at EVERY point of the RPM range. Nick at TurboConcepts did a great job converting my verbal description of the characteristic I am looking for into a custom turbo (NO OTHER MODS DONE, NOT TUNED, NO INJECTORS or else; just bolted his turbo in!).

Your setup:
- my intercooler (20x6x2.75, 2.5 piping) is WAY smaller than your. 'Rated' (manufacturer) good for up to 350 hp (not sure how HP rating for intercooler works, but it sure does not seem to be a verifiable claim/science).
- what is an "AEM F/IC", "AFR"
- did you have your setup on the dyno yet?
- is yours also an AEB? Any work on the internals?
- I like the wastegate dumped back to DP
- I would like to keep stock features as much as possible (reliability, knock sensors, etc.)

Watson
09-17-2010, 07:43 AM
This thread is great, I am looking to go MT(medium turbo) next summer but I am not sure if I will have the time to do internals, I have already done a p&p job on the head and thats it, for now I am stock. I live about 15 minutes from Chris Tapp and I will be getting tuned from him when I do my upgrade. Now I am only looking for 270~awhp so it's not as big as your goal. Would the 50trim .48a/r still be a good decision for that low of a power goal? I was thinking of going k04/pc-16 but than I decided I will just want more power in the end and it's a waste of money. I would be getting 440cc injectors, godspeed fmic, hopefully the garrett 50trim .48 a/r turbo, and all the other little things needed..what is an open dump is someone can inform me? This thread has already lots of very good information and I am not trying to thread jack just want to understand some stuff as well.

vtraudt
09-17-2010, 08:23 AM
Hey 'FasterA4ThanMine', that's good stuff! Love it. Hope that others in my situation (and driven to learn/understand A4 turboing) benefit also from your effort.
- "I originally went with the .48a/r because I wanted an earlier spooling street setup that still made decent power.": That's me, to the point. Don't need no screaming-RPM-power (probably rev'd her close to the limit maybe 3 times over the years, and only to get the boost curve logged with the new turbo).

- "As for tuning. I believe the .48a/r t3/t04 is capable of a little over 300awhp with the Uni 415cc": 300awhp is plenty fine. Looks like series 50, .48 A/R it is. That brings up the tune (and money): is there a chance to find a 8D0 907 557 P ECU with a Unitronics or EuroDyne chip/tune for the turbo (and get the rest of the setup in line, 440, 550 - 660cc sounds a bit scary)? With that, I could get close to my goal on THIS car, and save larger expenses for the NEXT (A4/A6), since I have to the point that my 1998 DBC ECU is limiting me quite a bit, and I am not ready at this point to go piggy back (but WILL in the next step, next car (and big turbo)

- a note why I am T3 bound: I get ANY T3 plus custom configuration/optimizing for free (in exchange for the 11 (!) turbos (several K26, K27, and a bunch of really big suckers). I'm sure I could even upgrade to ball bearings (does that really make a difference in spool up? Then it may be worth some extra expense). And that is also the reason that for ME, Elim is not an option (cost for manifold, plumbing (downpipe, intake vs. cost of Elim turbo); and those mods/expanses still leave the door open for more turbo work (if ever on this car).

- exhaust manifold: top mount? Can someone chime in regarding options/benefits, etc?

- intake: the way I see it, its basically piping, MAF and a cone filter. My carbonio (no offense) is just an expansive carbon fiber cover, 2 flimsy pieces of sheet metal and the connection to cold air (which is missing on my car), and larger rubber hoses. Right? Looking at your photos, I see what you say as far as space is concerned. Carbonio buy-buy (maybe I find someone who appreciates it and forks over some cash for it?)

- MAF. Bigger is better (no sense to restrict air getting into the engine). There seem to be a bunch of choices for not much money (billet alu?), 3.0 or 3.5 ID. If the 50 trim has 3.0 inlet, than 3.0 seems right. But the SENSOR (use stock?) needs to be calibrate so the ECU gets TRUE values. Right? Wiring another sensor into the harness would not be an issue at all, if it helps. Obviously, your 4" is what it might take for your 'little over 500 awhp'; but would a 3" or even a stock VR6 really choke my T3 at 300 awhp or thereabout?

- open dump/recirc: My impression was that the kids use open dump because it sounds 'good'. But I just read this statement: "Why do people vent them to the atmosphere then? Because plumbing the wastegate back into the downpipe generally LOSES anywhere from 10-20hp". It that is even remotely true, it would be a good argument for open dump, in addition to make plumbing easier? From a noise standpoint, I LOVE the exhaust tone of my Miltek!

- my comment "like clever Audi setup" (keep in mind: I am 'stupid as stupid get': reffering to BOV, which IMO must be recirculated to keep the turbo spinning. Is that the the 710A (DV) that comes on the stock engine? Mine has the APR R1. Can it be used?

- MAP sensor: how bad is my AEB's way of my ECU not knowing pressure, but guessing based on MAF input only? I started learning a bit about piggyback (what I call the half standalone, since the stock ECU still handles all the mundane tasks; would be the only way to go on my long term project of twin turboing my Chysler 4.0 V6 (Pacifica - don't laugh), since NO ONE does anything with this ECU), and a pressure sensor input to (for example) the Haltech would be done.

- AEB ECU: the limitation (DBC, intake pressure, "Way less loggable") of my car are further convincing me that the 300 awhp will be the end for this car, and any 'real big turbo', standalone, etc. will be reserved for the next one. With that said, I am still not ruling the 'quick/cheap and easy way' of looking for PC-16 chipped ECU, dropping the matching injectors (317cc I think) in and hoping that the file works well with my custom K04; have fun into the next year, and go big turbo, standalone one the next A4/A6 (starting to look for one).

- Tuning: I don't think investing big $$$ in programming software on the current car makes sense, IF there is any chance of finding a chipped ECU (or file and someone to chip one of my ECUs) for the 50 trim, .48. And the next big turbo will (if my learning curve continues) then be standalone.

- PC16: 225 awhp would be a good bang for the buck, IF it does NOT mean zero HP at 3000 rpm, and IF the file works with my current custom K04 (see geometry above, and an older boost curve here: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/Audi%20Custom%20Turbo/K04boostRPMcurveTAPchip.jpg ). Are there any documents out there showing results of a PC16 setup?

- "Labree hfc": what is that?

- eliminator setup: see above. I will check (for the ease of doing it) for how much $$$ I could get an elim turbo (GT2871R or so?), compared to the zero $$$ for T3. Comparing the cost for the 2 options: injectors = same, tune = same (?), intake plumbing (can the existing be used for elim ???) +$200 for T3, exhaust pluming (can the existing be used for elim?) +$200 for T3, T3 manifold +$100, BOV? wastegate? other? Can someone chime in here? Obviously, I may have been intrigued by the fact of a free T3 turbo, but underestimated the 'secondary' cost that come with it.

Don't yell at me if for all that. If dear reader thinks I am wasting cyberspace, and not making sense: so be it. Sue me.

vtraudt
09-17-2010, 08:24 AM
Hey 'FasterA4ThanMine', that's good stuff! Love it. Hope that others in my situation (and driven to learn/understand A4 turboing) benefit also from your effort.
- "I originally went with the .48a/r because I wanted an earlier spooling street setup that still made decent power.": That's me, to the point. Don't need no screaming-RPM-power (probably rev'd her close to the limit maybe 3 times over the years, and only to get the boost curve logged with the new turbo).

- "As for tuning. I believe the .48a/r t3/t04 is capable of a little over 300awhp with the Uni 415cc": 300awhp is plenty fine. Looks like series 50, .48 A/R it is. That brings up the tune (and money): is there a chance to find a 8D0 907 557 P ECU with a Unitronics or EuroDyne chip/tune for the turbo (and get the rest of the setup in line, 440, 550 - 660cc sounds a bit scary)? With that, I could get close to my goal on THIS car, and save larger expenses for the NEXT (A4/A6), since I have to the point that my 1998 DBC ECU is limiting me quite a bit, and I am not ready at this point to go piggy back (but WILL in the next step, next car (and big turbo)

- a note why I am T3 bound: I get ANY T3 plus custom configuration/optimizing for free (in exchange for the 11 (!) turbos (several K26, K27, and a bunch of really big suckers). I'm sure I could even upgrade to ball bearings (does that really make a difference in spool up? Then it may be worth some extra expense). And that is also the reason that for ME, Elim is not an option (cost for manifold, plumbing (downpipe, intake vs. cost of Elim turbo); and those mods/expanses still leave the door open for more turbo work (if ever on this car).

- exhaust manifold: top mount? Can someone chime in regarding options/benefits, etc?

- intake: the way I see it, its basically piping, MAF and a cone filter. My carbonio (no offense) is just an expansive carbon fiber cover, 2 flimsy pieces of sheet metal and the connection to cold air (which is missing on my car), and larger rubber hoses. Right? Looking at your photos, I see what you say as far as space is concerned. Carbonio buy-buy (maybe I find someone who appreciates it and forks over some cash for it?)

- MAF. Bigger is better (no sense to restrict air getting into the engine). There seem to be a bunch of choices for not much money (billet alu?), 3.0 or 3.5 ID. If the 50 trim has 3.0 inlet, than 3.0 seems right. But the SENSOR (use stock?) needs to be calibrate so the ECU gets TRUE values. Right? Wiring another sensor into the harness would not be an issue at all, if it helps. Obviously, your 4" is what it might take for your 'little over 500 awhp'; but would a 3" or even a stock VR6 really choke my T3 at 300 awhp or thereabout?

- open dump/recirc: My impression was that the kids use open dump because it sounds 'good'. But I just read this statement: "Why do people vent them to the atmosphere then? Because plumbing the wastegate back into the downpipe generally LOSES anywhere from 10-20hp". It that is even remotely true, it would be a good argument for open dump, in addition to make plumbing easier? From a noise standpoint, I LOVE the exhaust tone of my Miltek!

- my comment "like clever Audi setup" (keep in mind: I am 'stupid as stupid get': reffering to BOV, which IMO must be recirculated to keep the turbo spinning. Is that the the 710A (DV) that comes on the stock engine? Mine has the APR R1. Can it be used?

- MAP sensor: how bad is my AEB's way of my ECU not knowing pressure, but guessing based on MAF input only? I started learning a bit about piggyback (what I call the half standalone, since the stock ECU still handles all the mundane tasks; would be the only way to go on my long term project of twin turboing my Chysler 4.0 V6 (Pacifica - don't laugh), since NO ONE does anything with this ECU), and a pressure sensor input to (for example) the Haltech would be done.

- AEB ECU: the limitation (DBC, intake pressure, "Way less loggable") of my car are further convincing me that the 300 awhp will be the end for this car, and any 'real big turbo', standalone, etc. will be reserved for the next one. With that said, I am still not ruling the 'quick/cheap and easy way' of looking for PC-16 chipped ECU, dropping the matching injectors (317cc I think) in and hoping that the file works well with my custom K04; have fun into the next year, and go big turbo, standalone one the next A4/A6 (starting to look for one).

- Tuning: I don't think investing big $$$ in programming software on the current car makes sense, IF there is any chance of finding a chipped ECU (or file and someone to chip one of my ECUs) for the 50 trim, .48. And the next big turbo will (if my learning curve continues) then be standalone.

- PC16: 225 awhp would be a good bang for the buck, IF it does NOT mean zero HP at 3000 rpm, and IF the file works with my current custom K04 (see geometry above, and an older boost curve here: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/vtraudt/Audi%20Custom%20Turbo/K04boostRPMcurveTAPchip.jpg ). Are there any documents out there showing results of a PC16 setup?

- "Labree hfc": what is that?

- eliminator setup: see above. I will check (for the ease of doing it) for how much $$$ I could get an elim turbo (GT2871R or so?), compared to the zero $$$ for T3. Comparing the cost for the 2 options: injectors = same, tune = same (?), intake plumbing (can the existing be used for elim ???) +$200 for T3, exhaust pluming (can the existing be used for elim?) +$200 for T3, T3 manifold +$100, BOV? wastegate? other? Can someone chime in here? Obviously, I may have been intrigued by the fact of a free T3 turbo, but underestimated the 'secondary' cost that come with it.

Don't yell at me if for all that. If dear reader thinks I am wasting cyberspace, and not making sense: so be it. Sue me.

vtraudt
09-17-2010, 09:15 AM
This thread is great, I am looking to go MT(medium turbo) next summer but I am not sure if I will have the time to do internals, I have already done a p&p job on the head and thats it, for now I am stock. I live about 15 minutes from Chris Tapp and I will be getting tuned from him when I do my upgrade. Now I am only looking for 270~awhp so it's not as big as your goal. Would the 50trim .48a/r still be a good decision for that low of a power goal? I was thinking of going k04/pc-16 but than I decided I will just want more power in the end and it's a waste of money. I would be getting 440cc injectors, godspeed fmic, hopefully the garrett 50trim .48 a/r turbo, and all the other little things needed..what is an open dump is someone can inform me? This thread has already lots of very good information and I am not trying to thread jack just want to understand some stuff as well.

Watson, glad to hear that not everyone is getting up in arms over my babbling. From my relative newbie standpoint:
- PC16 won't get you the power (275 awhp); this thread (and others I have come across) put it in the 225 range. In my case, I already have (more or less by accident, since my stock K03 died, and for a few bucks more I was offered a custom K04 by TurboConcepts) the turbo. I would hope that my power at peak boost (18.5 psi at 4000 rpm) is not that far behind some big turbo guys out there. But I got there (from 12 psi from the 'TAP Stage II' chip) for the investment of $200 for the turbo (over a K03 refurb) and $300 for intercooler (and some elbow grease when installing the intercooler as part of the timing belt job).

- T3 50 trim, .48 A/R: what I have learned so far: If starting from scratch and definately NOT wanting exorbitant power, elim is the easiest/cheapest/safest way to get there (check out this sticky at the other forum; I have gone back to this one numerous times http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93439&highlight=Turbo+Upgrade+Information ). These power numbers my be on the 'optimum' side for each category, but they seem to jive with the talk out there (would love to see comments on those numbers; I talked to a GT2871R guy, and it sure didn't not sound/feel as if he has 450 hp (crank or awhp, doesn't matter) from HIS setup):

k04- ~235hp
gt2x- ~275hp
gtrs- ~350hp
gt71r- ~400hp
gt28rs- ~400hp
gt2871r- ~450hp
gt3071r- ~500hp
gt3076r- ~550hp
gt35r- 600+hp
T3/T4- 300-500+hp

But if this is not the end of your line, it seems going T3 on your way to BT is a good option (from which point on is it called 'Big Turbo', and does the term imply 'bigger than your internals can handle', which seems to be in 300-350 awhp range?).

So for 300 awhp or below, both - elim or T3 get you there (if you are not a 'kit' guy and need a turbo, give my trusted Nick at TurboConcepts.com a call; I haven't come across anybody who knows (in real live) more about turbos).

FMIC: my weird way to where I am started with the need for a new turbo, since the wastegate on my K03 dissolved. That got me into a custom K04, because I did NOT intend to add much power, and did NOT want to spend any more money that would be required with more power. But that brought me into the 'scene', and in contact with 'turbo guys', which create desire! A slipping/worn stock clutch was replaced with Southbend Stage 3, already in anticipation of more things to come. Then came the timing belt, at which point (with the front all off the car) adding $300 for a 20x6x2.75 intercooler kit (including plumbing) seemed reasonable, plus a boost gauge (duh!). With the FMIC in place, the door is open for more power. And a box with 11 turbos that I got my hand on now gives me some 'trading power'. And here I am. My current AEB car will definately end with not more 'BT' than what the stock block can handle, so I would be very happy with 300 awhp, and reserve further climb up on the power ladder to the next A4/A6.

Open dump: venting the wastegate into the air (noise, emissions) vs. the (legal) way of feeding it back into your exhaust (and cat). See this link http://www.c-speedracing.com/faq/07.php

vtraudt
09-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Why is my post there twice?

Lazer Viking
09-17-2010, 11:31 AM
you can delete your multi-posts by clicking the edit button below your post.

whoever said the .63 50 trim will spool 4500 or later is full of shit.

click on the link in my sig for my 50trim build, i make full boost by 4200 in any gear with my .63
as far as power ratings, look up the flow charts for the 3071 3076 and 50trim, specifically cfm's of flow.. you'll find the 50 trim .63 nestled between then 3071 and 3076.
as far as its power potential, it HAS made 350awhp on a b5, i forget his name but he was on here, had a white b5 and was from ohio.
it has also made over that http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3943315
377awhp @27psi

if you dont want to do rods, then just build a more powerful setup and detune it, thats what i did, 50 trim .63 unitronic 440, with 550cc injectors running it at 18psi

SleeperAvant
09-17-2010, 11:41 AM
His name was 4inchMAF i believe, and he dynoed at 352awhp.

ricekikr
09-17-2010, 05:04 PM
With that said, and picking on your "sucks at idle": Am I better of with 440cc tune/injectors? I would assume 630cc will run at really low duty cycle at idle, making it touchy to tune for smooth idle?

If I'd do this again, I'd get 630cc injectors again. A lot of people here seem to have had success with the 630cc. AND primarily because its rated to around 400hp (300awhp). Your right it flows too much @idle@3bar and running it at 1% duty sucks. But I'm definitely sure this can be tuned out, but I'll probably be running rich at idle.



Lag is more than on the stock K03


With the 50trim, the lag is noticeable, but still very bearable. And you can always down-shift [:D]

One more thing, 18psi on a ko3 is not comparable to 18psi on a 50trim. The 50trim will make more power at the same psi. Bigger turbo = more flow = more power. So basically you don't have to be boosting as high to make the same power.



- my intercooler (20x6x2.75, 2.5 piping) is WAY smaller than your. 'Rated' (manufacturer) good for up to 350 hp (not sure how HP rating for intercooler works, but it sure does not seem to be a verifiable claim/science).
- what is an "AEM F/IC", "AFR"
- did you have your setup on the dyno yet?
- is yours also an AEB? Any work on the internals?
- I like the wastegate dumped back to DP
- I would like to keep stock features as much as possible (reliability, knock sensors, etc.)

Intercooler = I'm also using 2.5piping (31.50L x 8.00H x 3.50D rated@600 not 650) Not sure how they rate intercoolers either. I think its flow. I chose this intercooler because it was relatively cheap (around $350). Has a very good core. And filled my bumper well. I could've gotten a smaller intercooler and boosted around 200rpm sooner, but what's the fun in that when the intercooler's heat-soaked.

AEM F/IC = AEM Fuel Ignition Controller, similar to E-manage. Basically slightly more high tech than your average piggy-back, but piggy-back nonetheless. Actually the only important part I think its missing is the a ability to advance timing (which in my case is needed @ lower rpm only).

AFR = Air fuel ratio.

Dyno = Nope I haven't, I'll dyno when I'm boosting 20psi [:D]. But using the internal WHP maths (calculates WHP from rate of acceleration using weight/gear ratio/tire size/drag cf), (probably not accurate but it did have the same peak WHP when I dynoed my chipped ko3), it showed around 230-240whp @13-14psi w/ rough tune and pump gas.

Yup AEB stock internals

Stock features = With the FIC being a piggyback, I retained all stock features, specially the knock sensors except for the N75, I use the boost controller of the FIC.

FasterA4ThanUrs
09-17-2010, 06:19 PM
Now I am only looking for 270~awhp so it's not as big as your goal. Would the 50trim .48a/r still be a good decision for that low of a power goal? I would be getting 440cc injectors, godspeed fmic, hopefully the garrett 50trim .48 a/r turbo, and all the other little things needed..what is an open dump is someone can inform me? .
If 270awhp is your final plan with the car, then dont waste your time going BT. Just do an elim setup from RingerRacing and call it a day.
An open dump is when an external wastegate is vented to the atmosphere rather than recirced back into the exhaust.


you can delete your multi-posts by clicking the edit button below your post.

whoever said the .63 50 trim will spool 4500 or later is full of shit.

click on the link in my sig for my 50trim build, i make full boost by 4200 in any gear with my .63
as far as power ratings, look up the flow charts for the 3071 3076 and 50trim, specifically cfm's of flow.. you'll find the 50 trim .63 nestled between then 3071 and 3076.
as far as its power potential, it HAS made 350awhp on a b5, i forget his name but he was on here, had a white b5 and was from ohio.
it has also made over that http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3943315
377awhp @27psi

if you dont want to do rods, then just build a more powerful setup and detune it, thats what i did, 50 trim .63 unitronic 440, with 550cc injectors running it at 18psi
I said that the .48 will be fully spooled by 4k at the latest, which is true. The .63 usually is around 500rpm later. This is also depending on what max psi you decide to run obv.
As for you saying the 50 trim makes 350awhp on a b5, that is true and no one ever denied it. But we are talking about a .48a/r on a 415cc Uni tune, which couldnt make 350awhp to save its fvcking life. Also, the Uni 415 tune puts you at 21psi, you are bringin up a .63 on 630's at 27 psi. Apples to oranges anyone?
And a big power setup thats detuned to run safely is not exactly efficient and the reliability is not much better. We arent talking about nasty big power builds here.

Watson
09-17-2010, 06:38 PM
If 270awhp is your final plan with the car, then dont waste your time going BT. Just do an elim setup from RingerRacing and call it a day.
An open dump is when an external wastegate is vented to the atmosphere rather than recirced back into the exhaust.

Of course 270awhp is my first goal, I will eventually be building the engine up and wanting to have around 400+awhp. I dont want to have to spend money again on going bigger turbo when I can work with one turbo for both situations. Of course that is my minimum that I want to acheive, anything over that will be a bonus but I do not want to have to touch internals yet(Im still learning at my school how to do bottom end work). Even if the 50trim wont make 400awhp I am sure I can acheive somewhat close to it. Probably in 2 years from now I will have a fully built motor, right now head it slightly built. If a 50trim is not good for 270awhp what hp should I look for with about 14psi on it? Don't forget I live 15 minutes away or less from Chris Tapp and I know many people that know him personally so he can probably help me out. I figured out the wastegate when I was at school I just asked a couple guys to show me. I will be planning on doing a recirculated wastegate since I like a stealth sound.

FasterA4ThanUrs
09-17-2010, 08:19 PM
If the 50 trim can make 350awhp, then obv it can be made to run 270awhp. Im really not sure what it would make at 14psi without looking into it, but then again I have never heard of tuning for a turbo that size that only runs 14psi. I dont know why people are saying that you NEED rods on a 50 trim build. On a journal bearing 50 trim, ~350awhp is almost definitely not going to snap stock 058 rods. The power comes on smooth and steady rather than the "snap on" power of a dual ball bearing setup. 350awhp on a GT series turbo would be a whole other story and could definitely grenade the engine.

Watson
09-17-2010, 08:30 PM
Even if it may not snap a rod I will still be doing internals. I have been looking at the eliminator's and what is the highest whp people have cranked out of those? The only thing I see good about those set ups are for how its nearly stock, also does it pass emissions with it? Im still looking into what I want to do, but I am going to look at every aspect of every set-up before I even purchase anything. I do my homework first.