Cam follower - A possible root cause...

[torquewrench]

Not related to my recent cam follower failure, I was randomly searching for some information on oil additives. During this search, I found some interesting information....

The EPA mandated that domestic oil remove the additive ZDDP from their oil. What is ZDDP? ZDDP reduces the friction between parts (in particular camshaft/lifters) The change was due to the fact that it may have adverse affects on your CAT. It shouldn't have been a big deal since most newer engines utilize roller lifters on camshafts and such. However, we do NOT have a roller lifter on our HPFP.

I don't think it's too far of a stretch to theorize that our FSI 2.0 engine testing was done with an engine oil that has ZDDP. Probably done around 2003. The engine surely passed durability testing. Now that there has been a change to the oil, we are getting premature cam follower wear. Debatable, but plausible.


More info:
http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

[JohnUSMC]

I like where you are going with this...

Maybe we can get some more clarification about Audi's testing of our 2.0TFSi engines and their relationship with this additive and EPA mandated change...

Seems very plausible to me... we need to send this in to the Mythbusters!!

[a4dc89]

ive heard this theory before. it makes perfect sense.

[Mark16q]

Similar line of thought for the Lotus Elise and cam wear issues. I sold mine before it became a problem, but pretty catastrophic when things failed. Apparently the additive is nasty for emissons but vaguely recall that certain diesel grade oils had more of the additive.

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. the cam follower is pretty similar to a flat tappet design which zddp is designed to lubricate. The way around this is roller bearing which obviously Audi didn't do (do the B8's have a roller bearing follower?). zddp+ seems to get good reviews, and if you can find STP red bottle that has quite a bit of zddp in it.

[illegitimus]

interesting theory and quite possibly the cause of the problem when coupled with the obvious design flaw. I don't know what everyone considers as worse: destroyed cat or the cam. I think, I'd take the former. Unfortunately, we have no say-so in the matter. EPA had decided this for us.

[wootwoot]

Where can I purchase some ZDDP to put into my oil?

[torquewrench]

interesting theory and quite possibly the cause of the problem when coupled with the obvious design flaw. I don't know what everyone considers as worse: destroyed cat or the cam. I think, I'd take the former. Unfortunately, we have no say-so in the matter. EPA had decided this for us.

Don't tell the EPA - I'm choosing. I plan to put the additive back in my oil and use ZDDP additive. If my CAT goes, then so be it. It's much easier to replace the CAT than the engine. Been there, done that.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335457

[torquewrench]

Where can I purchase some ZDDP to put into my oil?

Found it here. I'm sure there are other sites also.

http://www.eastwood.com/zddp-oil-additive.html

[rxer311]

Interesting...

[Sal_B7]

Just run a tp and you dont have to worry about your cat.

Thanks for the info.

[Sly Raskal]

Can any harm come from using this additive?

[Sal_B7]

From what the OP said just your cat. Not sure if it does anything else. Thats a good enough reason to take it out of the oil though.

[Sal_B7]

I just changed my oil the other day. Thinking of getting a bottle and trying it out.

Going to Autozone in a lil while to see how much ZDDP that STP red bottle has in it.

[Sly Raskal]

From what the OP said just your cat. Not sure if it does anything else. Thats a good enough reason to take it out of the oil though.

If it ruins your cat, i'd much rather pay ~$1K to swap out a cat down the road than have to deal with engine problems.

[Sal_B7]

oh of course. I feel the same way. Im running a TP so i dont have to worry about that.

My concern for us Cali folks is how it would do on a smog test. You know how strict our emmission laws are.

[illegitimus]

oh of course. I feel the same way. Im running a TP so i dont have to worry about that.

My concern for us Cali folks is how it would do on a smog test. You know how strict our emission laws are. how are you passing emissions with the TP now?

[Sal_B7]

Im not, havent had to do a smog check yet.

[Sal_B7]

A friend of mine knows a guy who knows a guy. So when its time ill go that route.

[Tanner]

ZDDP... seems like a plausible explanation. Googling it and notice that there's a rash of posts around 2006 and onwards about premature wear on cams and lobes, so it's quite possible that the timing around when ZDDP was just being eliminated and when Audi started to sell the 2.0Ts goes hand-in-hand with the cam follower wearing.

[illegitimus]

A friend of mine knows a guy who knows a guy. So when its time ill go that route. that works...

[illegitimus]

so, how does everyone feels about throwing a 4oz of this ZDDP additive into the oil on the oil change? I am considering on buying a bottle to try. of course, I won't know the difference unless my exhaust starts smelling of rotten eggs.

[vwnobby]

Would anyone consider this as another alternative?

http://www.tufoil.com/cars.html

I used Tufoil on my 1997 Jetta VR6 for close to 6 years. I sold the car with over 150,000 miles on it and never had any engine issues. The car pulled strong up to the day I sold it. Not sure if the Tufoil had anything to do with it, but I think it didn't hurt. I'm considering it for the A4 and am now thinking, because of this post, it may help with the cam follower wear issue. Thoughts?

[groundround]

from Wikipedia !! and if it's not lead chances are it can be reversed under heavy load or maybe long drive by melting it away? what i take from it.

Damage
[edit] Poisoning

Catalyst poisoning occurs when the catalytic converter is exposed to exhaust containing substances that coat the working surfaces, encapsulating the catalyst so that it cannot contact and treat the exhaust. The most notable contaminant is lead, so vehicles equipped with catalytic converters can only be run on unleaded gasoline. Other common catalyst poisons include manganese primarily from the gasoline additive MMT, and silicon which can enter the exhaust stream if the engine has a leak allowing coolant into the combustion chamber. Phosphorus is another catalyst contaminant. Although phosphorus is no longer used in gasoline, it (and zinc, another low-level catalyst contaminant) was until recently widely used in engine oil antiwear additives such as ZDDP. Beginning in 2006, a rapid phaseout of ZDDP in engine oils was begun.

Depending on the contaminant, catalyst poisoning can sometimes be reversed by running the engine under a very heavy load for an extended period of time. The increased exhaust temperature can sometimes liquefy or sublimate the contaminant, removing it from the catalytic surface. However, removal of lead deposits in this manner is usually not possible due to lead's high boiling point.

[Sal_B7]

I was watching a episode of Horsepower TV and the main guy was talking about ZDDP. The same bottle that was mentioned here. He just says how it would protect againts cam wear and they put it in the engine they were building.

I remember Arin from APR posting some pics of the cam followers that their motorsports team were using. For the beatdown those cars take the followers were in pretty good condition. He said they used Motul motor oil.

Im still thinking about buying that bottle off ZDDP and putting it in my car. Wish i would have known about this like a week ago before i changed my oil. Ill still order the 3 pack and see how my follower is after these next 5K miles.

[groundround]

I was watching a episode of Horsepower TV and the main guy was talking about ZDDP. The same bottle that was mentioned here. He just says how it would protect againts cam wear and they put it in the engine they were building.

I remember Arin from APR posting some pics of the cam followers that their motorsports team were using. For the beatdown those cars take the followers were in pretty good condition. He said they used Motul motor oil.

Im still thinking about buying that bottle off ZDDP and putting it in my car. Wish i would have known about this like a week ago before i changed my oil. Ill still order the 3 pack and see how my follower is after these next 5K miles.

I am going to order some to. My follower just came in the mail and is the first time i am checking it 81,000 miles [:D]. What the hell

[jmars]

^^^^^^ hope for the best :/

[illegitimus]

i am due for an oil change in about another 500 miles and I just swapped my cam follower last weekend. this might be the right time to try some of that ZDDP stuff.

[bishop13]

Depending on the contaminant, catalyst poisoning can sometimes be reversed by running the engine under a very heavy load for an extended period of time. The increased exhaust temperature can sometimes liquefy or sublimate the contaminant, removing it from the catalytic surface. However, removal of lead deposits in this manner is usually not possible due to lead's high boiling point.

Well, hell, isn't that we're told to do to combat the carbon build up issue anyway?

[Sal_B7]

That and some 44K!

I bought some STP red bottle from Kragen and it says it has "ZDDP anti wear agents."

Not sure how much of that it has in it but we will see how it goes.

[Sal_B7]

I just added that STP red bottle and that stuff is thick!!! Its like the consistency of honey.