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97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 06:13 PM
So here are my mods:

GT2871R eliminator kit
034 high flow exhaust manifold
Bosch high flow fuel pump
ECS adjustable fuel pressure reg.
415cc injectors
2.5" techtonics exhaust
034 High Flow Cat
2.75" turbo inlet pipe with a 2.75" maf housing
2.5" FMIC core and piping

I took the car for tuning with the new turbo and they are only getting 235 whp at 14psi and also at up to 21psi. 14 or 21 psi, same wheel horse power. [confused]

The tuning is being done by 034Motorsport and at the moment they don't know what the cause for this is. Has anyone ran into a similar situation and what could the problem be? Tomorrow they will remove the exhaust from the downpipe and try it on the dyno to see if the exhaust is too restrictive for some reason. The car doesn't seem to have any boost leaks but they will do a pressure test also.

Any other ideas?

gotboost
01-21-2010, 06:33 PM
Well there are issues if your making the same power at 14psi and 21psi

sean1.8t
01-21-2010, 06:35 PM
sound like all of your mods are in check.

but have they checked your engine? have they run a compression test

hercfe
01-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Boost leak boost leak boost leak boost leak BOOST LEAK.

97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 06:43 PM
No compression test yet but they will check for boost leaks.

97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Boost leak boost leak boost leak boost leak BOOST LEAK.

Is what I described above a typical sign of a boost leak? i.e. same power at different boost levels.

terraflata
01-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Is what I described above a typical sign of a boost leak? i.e. same power at different boost levels.

Not at all...you shouldn't be holding boost properly with a boost leak. And if 034 is doing the tuning and doesn't know what it is, quite odd. I'm sure they will figure it out soon.

-Terraflata

A4Rob
01-21-2010, 07:49 PM
What numbers did you expect? Are you running the IIC?

terraflata
01-21-2010, 07:54 PM
What numbers did you expect? Are you running the IIC?

I would be expecting 300WHP barely and dependant on mods.

Tifun
01-21-2010, 08:01 PM
What numbers did you expect? Are you running the IIC?

I'd be expecting much closer to the 300 whp area, 2860 guys on very conservative tunes are hitting the 250whp easily. Sounds like something isn't right with the car itself.

sean1.8t
01-21-2010, 08:09 PM
Boost leak boost leak boost leak boost leak BOOST LEAK.

if he has a boost leak of this size, there is no way that he would be able to hold 21psi at the manifold

terraflata
01-21-2010, 08:31 PM
if he has a boost leak of this size, there is no way that he would be able to hold 21psi at the manifold

My thoughts exactly....it would be erratic.

Tifun
01-21-2010, 08:34 PM
Any CELS? Vagcom it yet??? O2's???

97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 09:49 PM
I don't know what they checked during the tune but they will spend some time troubleshooting tomorrow morning and I will pick up the car at noon. I just wanted to see if any of you guys have dealt with a similar issue so I can point them in the right direction. I don't think my 2.5" techtonics exhaust is that restrictive, especially with a high flow cat.

97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 09:51 PM
What numbers did you expect? Are you running the IIC?

I was expecting at least 260whp, more like 280whp. Definetely was not expecting 230 from a 2871.

viceprp
01-21-2010, 10:07 PM
I was expecting at least 260whp, more like 280whp. Definetely was not expecting 230 from a 2871.

Was expecting a lot more out of the GT8771R .. Sounds to be a boost leak. Check that shyt out! [wrench]

97B518TQM
01-21-2010, 10:31 PM
Was expecting a lot more out of the GT8771R .. Sounds to be a boost leak. Check that shyt out! [wrench]

Tell me about it, I was so disappointed when they told me 235

spinall4
01-22-2010, 08:35 AM
maybe the turbo itself that would be my first guess, or fuel/spark issue

b5andm3
01-22-2010, 08:37 AM
You need to get rods....

andyrew
01-22-2010, 08:42 AM
@14psi 235 is respectable.

21psi you should be ~300 on CA gas, maybe a tad lower.


Can they post up a dyno graph with the A/F ratio's? If the A/F ratio's are correct, what about spark? Are you blowing out the spark possibly? Gap the plugs less?

GarbatyA4
01-22-2010, 08:47 AM
LOG your boost, block 0??

Haenszel20v
01-22-2010, 08:55 AM
*knock knock*

Seerlah
01-22-2010, 09:15 AM
You need to get rods....

Depends on how much boost he wants to run.

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 09:27 AM
Not at all...you shouldn't be holding boost properly with a boost leak. And if 034 is doing the tuning and doesn't know what it is, quite odd. I'm sure they will figure it out soon.

-Terraflata
We are fairly certain that the exhaust is the issue. However, the customer needs to authorize us to diagnose the issue with his car.

All of the other cars we've tuned with this setup and our 3" exhaust have made substantially more power than this one.

The fact that the car isn't making any more power at 21 PSI than it is at 14PSI is indicative of a restriction in the exhaust.

Seerlah
01-22-2010, 09:31 AM
I would not have ever thought a 2.5" exhaust system was that restrictive. Before and after dyno charts if he opts for the 3"[up].

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 09:43 AM
We are fairly certain that the exhaust is the issue. However, the customer needs to authorize us to diagnose the issue with his car.

All of the other cars we've tuned with this setup and our 3" exhaust have made substantially more power than this one.

The fact that the car isn't making any more power at 21 PSI than it is at 14PSI is indicative of a restriction in the exhaust.

I talked to Christian this morning. We are first going to change the plugs since I haven't touched them in a year and also check for boost leaks. Even if the exhaust is too restrictive, I am not planning on making my car any louder so upgrading to a bigger exhaust is not really an option at this point. With the 2.5" exhaust I should be seeing at least 250-260whp, I would think. Both my mufflers are straight-through mufflers so not much restriction there and with the brand new high flow cat, I really don't see how it can be that restrictive. Who knows anymore, I am getting more and more surprises with this car.

PoormansA4
01-22-2010, 09:52 AM
sounds like somethings wrong but wouldnt count on much higher numbers on our POS 91 gas

Seerlah
01-22-2010, 09:55 AM
Meth[up]

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 10:07 AM
I would not have ever thought a 2.5" exhaust system was that restrictive. Before and after dyno charts if he opts for the 3"[up].
We already have done before and after dyno testing on other Eliminator cars.

Here is a before and after from Javad's old Unitronic 415CC GTRS Eliminator A4 going from a 3" Test Pipe & Neuspeed Exhaust (2.5-2.75") to our 3" Exhaust w/ HFC:

http://www.034motorsport.com/gallery/d/19322-2/Javad_A4_exhaust_compare.jpg

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24393

Here is a dyno from a customer's 034Motorsport ME7 tuned GTRS Eliminator car when switching from a stock cat and Milltek Exhaust to our HFC with Milltek Exhaust:

http://www.034motorsport.com/images/Laszlo/034_HFC_Comparison.jpg

The turbo (even the GTRS, let alone the GT2871R) is definitely capable of more power, there is obviously an issue/restriciton with the car that needs to be diagnosed.

Tifun
01-22-2010, 10:12 AM
I have to disagree with the exhaust restrictions being the reason he's not making more power. Plenty of people make more power on smaller setups with that size exhaust.

nunya
01-22-2010, 10:19 AM
I made 253whp on the same dyno with the same turbo at 22psi with a 2.5inch exhaust and their metal HFC. But I have quite a bit different setup. 034 will get you sorted. It took quite a while to get mine dialed in. I would let them work their magic and hold off on pointing fingers or worrying.

--dillon

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 10:29 AM
I have to disagree with the exhaust restrictions being the reason he's not making more power. Plenty of people make more power on smaller setups with that size exhaust.
As I have stated earlier, the issue needs to be diagnosed. Right now, the simplest thing to do besides swapping plugs is to drop the exhaust and do another pull.

However, our time costs money, and we need authorization to proceed with diagnosing the car.

We have years of experience building and tuning these cars, and follow logical processes to solve problems.

Maybe you can share some insight as to what you believe the problem is?

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 10:33 AM
I made 253whp on the same dyno with the same turbo at 22psi with a 2.5inch exhaust and their metal HFC. But I have quite a bit different setup. 034 will get you sorted. It took quite a while to get mine dialed in. I would let them work their magic and hold off on pointing fingers or worrying.

--dillon
Hi Dillon,

Your car took a bit longer becuase we had to switch back to Motronic from the Haltech Interceptor and start the tuning for your injectors from scratch.

We already had tuned Jivko's car with his GT2X Eliminator and 415CC injectors, so this tune should have taken a couple of hours on the dyno. [up]

At this point; it's some kind of a hardware or sensor issue that needs to be diagnosed, simple as that. [wrench]

Haenszel20v
01-22-2010, 10:38 AM
whats is knock voltage/timing pull doing?


Ran into this before..... gt28r 1.8t...... put down a smooth 230whp on 23psi....... put race gas in it with NO OTHER CHANGES..... the car gained 50whp off the bat.

Those who know what they're doing know what this means.

btw... the car blew up 2 months later.

Sales@RAI
01-22-2010, 10:45 AM
whats is knock voltage/timing pull doing?


Ran into this before..... gt28r 1.8t...... put down a smooth 230whp on 23psi....... put race gas in it with NO OTHER CHANGES..... the car gained 50whp off the bat.

Those who know what they're doing know what this means.

btw... the car blew up 2 months later.

lol, timing pull FTW!

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 10:56 AM
whats is knock voltage/timing pull doing?


Ran into this before..... gt28r 1.8t...... put down a smooth 230whp on 23psi....... put race gas in it with NO OTHER CHANGES..... the car gained 50whp off the bat.

Those who know what they're doing know what this means.

btw... the car blew up 2 months later.
If you bump up the boost, you can't run crap for timing and KV goes up. This can be indicative of an exhaust restriction.

FWIW, when we were tuning the one of the Tial S4s we put together here, the car was doing the same thing at ~450WHP and ~25PSI. We ditched the Labree DPs on the car for our 3" ones, and were able to run more timing and boost with no other changes. IIRC, that car ended up making 511WHP.

Considering that we've pressure tested Jivko's car for boost leaks, and swapped plugs, it is logical to look at the exhaust. We didn't build this car, and are only doing tuning, so it's hard to say what has and hasn't been done, and where the issue may lie.

Yes, this turbo is capable of more power, yes our tuning is capable of more power, yes there is an issue with the car that sits outside of the Motronic tuning realm.

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 12:47 PM
If you bump up the boost, you can't run crap for timing and KV goes up. This can be indicative of an exhaust restriction.

FWIW, when we were tuning the one of the Tial S4s we put together here, the car was doing the same thing at ~450WHP and ~25PSI. We ditched the Labree DPs on the car for our 3" ones, and were able to run more timing and boost with no other changes. IIRC, that car ended up making 511WHP.

Considering that we've pressure tested Jivko's car for boost leaks, and swapped plugs, it is logical to look at the exhaust. We didn't build this car, and are only doing tuning, so it's hard to say what has and hasn't been done, and where the issue may lie.

Yes, this turbo is capable of more power, yes our tuning is capable of more power, yes there is an issue with the car that sits outside of the Motronic tuning realm.



I agree. There is definitely an issue with the car somewhere. It lost 40 ft-lbs of boost from the GT2X moving up the GT2871R and only gained 30hp or so.
I know the guys at 034 can figure out what the problem is. If they can't I don't know who can. My problem is money at the moment and the amount I have already put into this car.

nunya
01-22-2010, 12:56 PM
I make less torque then you did with you GT2x with my 71r elim.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NtFoX03bmho/StAd4sShsaI/AAAAAAAADJY/2PGkaSBBzv8/s1152/034_dyno.jpg

--dillon

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 03:31 PM
Well I played with the car a bit and still nothing. Did another boost leak test, perfect, no leaks and no problems.
Cleaned the maf, nothing.
034 changed the plugs and that didn't do anything.

My wideband is going into the 17s for A/F ratio when under full throttle and full boost. That is crazy lean. I tested the whole intake after the maf for any leaks and nothing, so it can't be sucking air from anywhere after the maf.
The turbo sounds healthy.
I don't know what to do anymore [headbang][headbang][headbang]

nunya
01-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Well I played with the car a bit and still nothing. Did another boost leak test, perfect, no leaks and no problems.
Cleaned the maf, nothing.
034 changed the plugs and that didn't do anything.

My wideband is going into the 17s for A/F ratio when under full throttle and full boost. That is crazy lean. I tested the whole intake after the maf for any leaks and nothing, so it can't be sucking air from anywhere after the maf.
The turbo sounds healthy.
I don't know what to do anymore [headbang][headbang][headbang]

Try popping in your stock FPR. You may also want to check out your MAF sensor g/s on a vag-com to make sure its good. When 034 had it on the rollers did they say your wideband was calibrated close to theirs?

--dillon

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Well I played with the car a bit and still nothing. Did another boost leak test, perfect, no leaks and no problems.
Cleaned the maf, nothing.
034 changed the plugs and that didn't do anything.

My wideband is going into the 17s for A/F ratio when under full throttle and full boost. That is crazy lean. I tested the whole intake after the maf for any leaks and nothing, so it can't be sucking air from anywhere after the maf.
The turbo sounds healthy.
I don't know what to do anymore [headbang][headbang][headbang]
Check you MAF readings via VAG-COM if you can, or swing by with the car. Our tune is calibrated to run mid-to-high 11s and that's what your car was doing on the dyno.

Thanks!

tdn
01-22-2010, 04:07 PM
Check you MAF readings via VAG-COM if you can, or swing by with the car. Our tune is calibrated to run mid-to-high 11s and that's what your car was doing on the dyno.

Thanks!

Your gt2871r eliminator tune on a 1.8t is good for mid to high 11's, with what fuel?

20vpower
01-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Your gt2871r eliminator tune on a 1.8t is good for mid to high 11's, with what fuel?

I hope you are talking about AFR in the 11's aswell. Dont know for sure about the fuel but im guessing 91oct.

To OP, did you upgrade to the larger 2.5 inlet at the turbo?

034Motorsport
01-22-2010, 04:27 PM
Your gt2871r eliminator tune on a 1.8t is good for mid to high 11's, with what fuel?
Our tune is calibrated for mid-to-high 11s... As in AFRs under load in boost.

Please read the context before starting a quarter-mile flame war. [rolleyes]

black99.5a4
01-22-2010, 04:43 PM
on a 2860, apr tune, we made 261 on 2.5 exhaust and hi flow cat.

i'd take a look at duty cycle, timing pull, air fuel ratio obviously. if a good reputable wideband, installed right, is reading super lean, i'd def trust that over a tail pipe sniffer if that is what is being used.

20vpower
01-22-2010, 04:51 PM
on a 2860, apr tune, we made 261 on 2.5 exhaust and hi flow cat.

i'd take a look at duty cycle, timing pull, air fuel ratio obviously. if a good reputable wideband, installed right, is reading super lean, i'd def trust that over a tail pipe sniffer if that is what is being used.

On 93 oct im guessing?

black99.5a4
01-22-2010, 04:53 PM
yeah, 91 would of made less obviously, but a 71r shouldnt be held back to 235 with the same mods and boost as the 2860 was running, when the 71r is a bigger turbo, even though it was ran on less octane. it should see 265-270 i'd say on 91

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 05:21 PM
I will check the maf readings with vag-com and also put in my stock FPR, as it was mentioned. It almost seems like the FPR doesn't increase the fuel pressure with boost for some reason.
Laszlo is right though, it must have been in the 11s on the dyno or otherwise Nate would have never considered the car tuned and would still be working on it. I am really confused why it's leaning out so much. I am going to check my compression this weekend, see what shape the engine is in.

andyrew
01-22-2010, 06:49 PM
Laszlo, I have a 2.25" exhaust and made 255awhp on 18psi on your dyno with my GT28R, I really doubt that the exhaust is THAT restrictive.

I would venture it being a fuel or spark issue more than a flow issue.

Tifun
01-22-2010, 08:13 PM
I think before anything else can be said the OP needs to simply vagcom the car and get some readings. Simple as that. Until then this is a guessing game. I don't think 034 would say your car is running 11's when it left if it's not, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want something like that to leave their doors with their name on it. I'm sure they can provide the actual dyno sheet with the afr readings if truly needed. I have no suggestions until vagcoming has been completed because it's going to be turning into "point the finger" game.

andyrew
01-22-2010, 09:21 PM
Tifun,

034 pulls information from the ECU on their dyno runs.. I would think they would notice something out of the ordinary.

Tifun
01-22-2010, 09:39 PM
I don't doubt 034 did a good tune, I think there is something wrong with the car other than the tune. I don't think a compression test is going to tell anything that will lead to an answer. I mean how well was the install done? How good did the car actually run before the kit went on? Is his clutch slipping maybe resulting in lower inaccurate numbers? There's a ton of variables to be had and I'm certain that it's a combination of issues. Hopefully for his sake it's something stupid and easy to sort out.

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 10:05 PM
I don't doubt 034 did a good tune, I think there is something wrong with the car other than the tune. I don't think a compression test is going to tell anything that will lead to an answer. I mean how well was the install done? How good did the car actually run before the kit went on? Is his clutch slipping maybe resulting in lower inaccurate numbers? There's a ton of variables to be had and I'm certain that it's a combination of issues. Hopefully for his sake it's something stupid and easy to sort out.

I definitely don't doubt 034's tuning ability. I am sure it's something with the car that is going crazy. The install was done by me and I have no doubts in that part, as this is the 4th turbo I install on this car, I can do it with my eyes closed. It's not a hard install anyways. My clutch has about 1000 miles on it, it's the same clutch Javad has on his A4 and it's holding fine with his power so I am not doubting the clutch. I want to do a compression test in case the engine has a low compression.

I don't know what else it could be. I am really getting tired of this car, after all the money I have put into it.

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 11:21 PM
Well I did some pulls in second gear tonight. The strangest thing is, the car is actually running pretty good all of a sudden. It is actually running like a 235whp car, which is not much, but today when I was driving home it was running like a 150whp car with bad bad problems.

Well here are the logs:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log1.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log2.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log3.jpg


The MAF sensor seems to be running fine based on the vag reading. I don't know what the knock voltage is supposed to be, maybe someone on here knows more about that.

Nebone
01-22-2010, 11:47 PM
Since your car sometimes feels like a 150 whp car and sometimes like a 235 whp car, another test you SHOULD run is by how much the ECU is retarding the timing. I forgot which block but normally they read 0 and each individual cylinder reports it's own reading.

97B518TQM
01-22-2010, 11:53 PM
Since your car sometimes feels like a 150 whp car and sometimes like a 235 whp car, another test you SHOULD run is by how much the ECU is retarding the timing. I forgot which block but normally they read 0 and each individual cylinder reports it's own reading.

I know what you mean. I will check those too but the main question is why the timing would be getting retarded, what causes that? If it's running lean or rich then it would knock and that would case the timing to be retarded. That leads to why is it running lean in my case? It all leads to one problem and if I can figure out that problem then everything will fall into place.

sean1.8t
01-23-2010, 12:43 AM
Since your car sometimes feels like a 150 whp car and sometimes like a 235 whp car, another test you SHOULD run is by how much the ECU is retarding the timing. I forgot which block but normally they read 0 and each individual cylinder reports it's own reading.

block 020. i like to log that and block 011 at the same time(no more than 2 at a time so you get the fastest sample rate) so you get actual timing and AFR at the same time.

tdn
01-23-2010, 08:57 AM
Our tune is calibrated for mid-to-high 11s... As in AFRs under load in boost.

Please read the context before starting a quarter-mile flame war. [rolleyes]

NEVER!!

Nebone
01-23-2010, 11:31 AM
I know what you mean. I will check those too but the main question is why the timing would be getting retarded, what causes that? If it's running lean or rich then it would knock and that would case the timing to be retarded. That leads to why is it running lean in my case? It all leads to one problem and if I can figure out that problem then everything will fall into place.

High intake temps or even a noisy cam chain tensioner can cause timing retard.

97B518TQM
01-24-2010, 09:46 PM
I did 3 logs of blocks 11 and 20. 2 of the logs were in 2nd gear all the way to redline and the last log was in 3rd gear only to 5500rpm since i was going too fast already. Car feels like 235whp still, I timed it with my somewhat professional timer at 5.62seconds 0-60, but my launch is horrible.
Anyways, I don't know if these logs show why the car can't get anymore than 235whp but it definitely show that it's not pulling the timing.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log4.jpg

flynnr
01-24-2010, 10:19 PM
it said 85.9 throttle angle... is that correct?

97B518TQM
01-24-2010, 10:37 PM
it said 85.9 throttle angle... is that correct?

The maximum is 90 degrees I believe, but mine has always maxed out at 85.9

michpan
01-25-2010, 12:10 AM
Why do you use only 415 injectors? They're too small imho. They can be maxed out very easily with your setup.. Is this 415cc at 3 bar fuel pressure or 4? Log how much the ecu uses them, if it's over 85% then you need to install bigger injectors.. It seems to me that it's a fueling problem since your car is running lean. Check your fuel trims (032) and let us know how much correction you see in there..

Your maf readings are too low for 235whp..


Michael

F16HTON
01-25-2010, 12:23 AM
MAF readings are fine, pretty sure they are using a 3" as the 71R will exceed 229 g/s on a stock MAF easily.

No AFR was posted, but based upon the data showed, not likely the car is running lean. I suspect a clogged up catalyst or a too restrictive exhaust.

Car should be making 290 on CA 91 pump.

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 10:59 AM
Why do you use only 415 injectors? They're too small imho. They can be maxed out very easily with your setup.. Is this 415cc at 3 bar fuel pressure or 4? Log how much the ecu uses them, if it's over 85% then you need to install bigger injectors.. It seems to me that it's a fueling problem since your car is running lean. Check your fuel trims (032) and let us know how much correction you see in there..

Your maf readings are too low for 235whp..


Michael

I am using 415cc injectors as per 034's recommendation due to higher resolution with smaller injectors. I am sure they would have told me if my injectors are maxed out. I am not sure what the fuel pressure is at the moment, I have an adjustable FPR so not sure what they have it set at.

I have a 2.75" maf housing so it's normal for the maf readings to lower than they would be with the stock housing.

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 11:01 AM
MAF readings are fine, pretty sure they are using a 3" as the 71R will exceed 229 g/s on a stock MAF easily.

No AFR was posted, but based upon the data showed, not likely the car is running lean. I suspect a clogged up catalyst or a too restrictive exhaust.

Car should be making 290 on CA 91 pump.

The cat can't be clogged, it's a brand new high flow cat. I don't know about the exhaust anymore, people are getting much higher numbers with smaller exhausts. I will do some more logging today and post it.

viceprp
01-25-2010, 11:02 AM
Will be waiting for that AFR.

andyrew
01-25-2010, 11:26 AM
Have you ruled out spark plugs yet?

dcampana
01-25-2010, 11:34 AM
Andyrew- yes i believe 034 changed the plugs out when they had the car...

i am maybe thinking fueling, but....

97B5- i logged a few 0-60 times, my best was a 4.46 but i average a 4.8 or so. i have the 2871 with 440's and a "tweaked" ko4 vast file.... \that is launching at about 4800, on the upswing...

for what that info is worth for you...

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 11:38 AM
Andyrew- yes i believe 034 changed the plugs out when they had the car...

i am maybe thinking fueling, but....

97B5- i logged a few 0-60 times, my best was a 4.46 but i average a 4.8 or so. i have the 2871 with 440's and a "tweaked" ko4 vast file.... \that is launching at about 4800, on the upswing...

for what that info is worth for you...

034 did change the plugs and that didn't help any.

4.46 0-60 is a great time, I can only wish to get that. I can't even launch my car. Whenever I drop the clutch from high rpms the car just bogs down and almost dies on me. I have tried it from all rpm ranges.

dcampana
01-25-2010, 11:50 AM
god that is odd.

I am not sure if its exhaust, as I have a stock cat and down pipe... it does not go to 3" until after the flex. This will be changed here soon though.

do you have the ability to watch fuel pressure (guage) while under load? also, have you been able to log the duty cycles as suggested above on the injectors? how old is the fuel filter?

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 12:05 PM
god that is odd.

I am not sure if its exhaust, as I have a stock cat and down pipe... it does not go to 3" until after the flex. This will be changed here soon though.

do you have the ability to watch fuel pressure (guage) while under load? also, have you been able to log the duty cycles as suggested above on the injectors? how old is the fuel filter?

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge in the car so I can't watch for that.

I am not sure which block shows the duty cycle, I will have to play with vagcom to log the duty cycle. I will go do that in a few minutes.

My fuel filter is pretty old, I've been meaning to replace it and something always comes up.

dcampana
01-25-2010, 12:22 PM
i believe its block 002...

here is some info on duty cycles/ max power:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1989841

dcampana
01-25-2010, 12:23 PM
oh, and i would for what the cost is, replace the filter. my last one i could barely blow through and i dela with "surging" issues up top. that was with a stock fuel pump. may be just a $14 filter or what not- i would like to HOPE for ya:)

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 12:54 PM
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log5.jpg

During the pull my wideband A/F was in the 14s, which is still pretty lean.
I couldn't find which block shows the duty cycle in %. Block 2 shows it in time (ms).

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 01:41 PM
I think I am just going to take the car to 034 and see what they can do.

dcampana
01-25-2010, 01:47 PM
may be a good idea. if i were you, just go buy a new filter and see if that helps. prior to paying the 034 shop time.

if the filter is old, might as well change it. should atke less than 20 minutes....

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 02:35 PM
may be a good idea. if i were you, just go buy a new filter and see if that helps. prior to paying the 034 shop time.

if the filter is old, might as well change it. should atke less than 20 minutes....

I think I will have to drop the gas tank to do that.

nunya
01-25-2010, 02:44 PM
You only need to drop it a tiny bit, not the whole way. It takes maybe 2 hrs (on a bad day) to change the filter.

--dillon

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 02:50 PM
Don't I also need a triple square bit to take off the filter? I have 3 different sizes but the smallest one is 16mm.

viceprp
01-25-2010, 03:09 PM
If I was 2871 then I would def have a HFC and upgraded downpipe.. I have 034 HFC and a borla cat-back for just my k03 and I felt a world of a difference. I would expect atleast 245-50whp if you changed yours out.

black99.5a4
01-25-2010, 03:15 PM
i didnt need a triple square, on either my car or a buddies s4.

it was acouple normal bolts.. i ended up just stretching my bracket, dropping the gas tank, pulling it out, undoing the banjo fittings (make sure you buy new copper washers for those)

then when i slide it back up, i put the tank back in and it holds it in place just fine.

but if you read the service manual, it says the filter should last the life of the car.

after i got the gas out of mine, with 203k on it, it still blew through just fine.

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 03:17 PM
If I was 2871 then I would def have a HFC and upgraded downpipe.. I have 034 HFC and a borla cat-back for just my k03 and I felt a world of a difference. I would expect atleast 245-50whp if you changed yours out.

I have 034 HFC and a full 2.5" cat-back exhaust with borla muffler.

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 03:18 PM
i didnt need a triple square, on either my car or a buddies s4.

it was acouple normal bolts.. i ended up just stretching my bracket, dropping the gas tank, pulling it out, undoing the banjo fittings (make sure you buy new copper washers for those)

then when i slide it back up, i put the tank back in and it holds it in place just fine.

but if you read the service manual, it says the filter should last the life of the car.

after i got the gas out of mine, with 203k on it, it still blew through just fine.


In that case I will tackle that filter tomorrow.

dcampana
01-25-2010, 03:25 PM
iirc, the strap is held on byeither bolts or the triple square... depends on the year- older has the bolts, I think....


yes you have 4 bolts that hold the tank in, you need to remove... pull the tank down some and take ot the 2 botls that hold the strap on the filter. then 2 banjo bolts for the lines. easy money and took me about 20 mins to do.

even if you take your time, should not be a big deal.

be careful as i found a "family" of black widows living in there. i pulled my hand out and had 3 big m-fers on me...

scared the $h!t out of me:)

hey wherwe you located? in the bay area, but north bay, south bay, east bay, or city?

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 03:32 PM
iirc, the strap is held on byeither bolts or the triple square... depends on the year- older has the bolts, I think....


yes you have 4 bolts that hold the tank in, you need to remove... pull the tank down some and take ot the 2 botls that hold the strap on the filter. then 2 banjo bolts for the lines. easy money and took me about 20 mins to do.

even if you take your time, should not be a big deal.

be careful as i found a "family" of black widows living in there. i pulled my hand out and had 3 big m-fers on me...

scared the $h!t out of me:)

hey wherwe you located? in the bay area, but north bay, south bay, east bay, or city?

I am in south San Jose.

20vpower
01-25-2010, 03:34 PM
Block 032 is fuel trims, and it seems to be removing a bit of fuel at idle/part throttle.

Block 031 is for 02 sensor readings.

If your wideband is reading 14s that is not good, I wonder what the cars 02 sensor is reading. It seems odd that 034s WB showed the AFR was in spec, but yours is off, is your WB calibrated correctly?

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Block 032 is fuel trims, and it seems to be removing a bit of fuel at idle/part throttle.

Block 031 is for 02 sensor readings.

If your wideband is reading 14s that is not good, I wonder what the cars 02 sensor is reading. It seems odd that 034s WB showed the AFR was in spec, but yours is off, is your WB calibrated correctly?


According to 034 my wideband and their wideband read the same. For some reason my car is running leaner now than when it was being tuned. I wonder if it wasn't getting enough cooling of the intercooler on the dyno and it was heatsoaking... i don't know anymore. I am totally confused with this car.

dcampana
01-25-2010, 03:43 PM
dang not a quick drive over to help. a little over 2 hours... i would be happy to do the filter for you. but travel time SUCKS!!! especially int eh rain.

20v brings up a good point. can you run logs on block 031 and 032?

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 03:50 PM
dang not a quick drive over to help. a little over 2 hours... i would be happy to do the filter for you. but travel time SUCKS!!! especially int eh rain.

20v brings up a good point. can you run logs on block 031 and 032?


I will go do that in a few minutes

viceprp
01-25-2010, 03:51 PM
I have 034 HFC and a full 2.5" cat-back exhaust with borla muffler.

sorry got lost in the posts and forgot who the OP was lol

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 04:33 PM
Here is the log of block 31 in 3rd gear, from 3k rpm to 6k.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/jivkom/log6.jpg

97B518TQM
01-25-2010, 07:21 PM
Any thoughts?

dcampana
01-25-2010, 10:14 PM
i am not 100% sure but the readings seem good... there are a few variances at the lower rpm rang, but up top, it seems ok.

i am pretty sure you want the values between .2 and .8....

I think, but i am sure others will chime in.

gmx
01-26-2010, 02:30 AM
I recommend you stop doing runs to 6k. Even for logs.
14 is too lean and blown motor territory!
At what revs does your WB jump/rise to 14s?


IIRC, Bosch don't make a 415cc injector.
What injectors do you have and were they flow tested or at least new?
Are you absolutely sure all your fueling hardware is working 100%?

97B518TQM
01-26-2010, 01:46 PM
I recommend you stop doing runs to 6k. Even for logs.
14 is too lean and blown motor territory!
At what revs does your WB jump/rise to 14s?


IIRC, Bosch don't make a 415cc injector.
What injectors do you have and were they flow tested or at least new?
Are you absolutely sure all your fueling hardware is working 100%?

My A/F goes into the 14s after 4k rpm.

My injectors are the green top Bosch injectors which are 415 or 440cc, i don't remember which exactly. They were brand new and shouldn't have any problems as I have put less than 3k miles on them total.

20vpower
01-26-2010, 04:02 PM
My A/F goes into the 14s after 4k rpm.


According to your wideband it says its in 14s, but your stock 02 is reading different. I would make sure 100% your WB is reading correctly, exhaust leaks can give 02 sensor false readings.

If it is infact 14s after 4k thats no bueno, but im sure 034 would have caught that while on the dyno and wouldnt have let you leave like that.

Your 031 readings look like its not running as lean as your WB is saying. Next time log 031 and something that shows RPM to help better.

97B518TQM
01-28-2010, 10:40 AM
Just a quick update.
I just dropped off the car at 034 this morning so hopefully this mystery will be solved once and for all.

flynnr
01-28-2010, 10:53 AM
YAY good call! you wont regret it. I love these threads because i know i will be going through the same problems, and it is nice to have these resources to look back on and diagnose my problems as they arise!

bob12312357
01-29-2010, 07:32 AM
Awww, I wanted some more 14'sA/F redline logging...

97B518TQM
01-29-2010, 12:18 PM
Awww, I wanted some more 14'sA/F redline logging...

Why don't you go do it to your car then, smartass [:p]

dcampana
01-29-2010, 12:45 PM
yeah that was a bit harsh.. have you heard any thing from 034 as of yet?

97B518TQM
01-29-2010, 01:31 PM
yeah that was a bit harsh.. have you heard any thing from 034 as of yet?

I spoke with Christian a couple of hours ago and my car was on the Dyno. I am waiting to find out more later on today.

97B518TQM
01-29-2010, 06:33 PM
Looks like my car won't be done until Monday or Tuesday [=(][=(]

20vpower
01-29-2010, 06:59 PM
no more info?

dcampana
01-29-2010, 07:04 PM
thats all? nothing else? damn that is a bummer

viceprp
01-29-2010, 09:52 PM
DUUUUUDE .. I'm gonna call them for you . btw, whats your real name? -- I joke, I joke.

97B518TQM
01-29-2010, 09:55 PM
Well looks like they couldn't really get to it in the past two days so... they will start really working on it on Monday, hopefully [:(] They've been really busy with a couple of other projects so now that they are done it's finally time for my car. Too bad I have to wait through the whole weekend without it though. Oh well.

flynnr
02-01-2010, 07:40 AM
up date up date update!

97B518TQM
02-01-2010, 04:16 PM
Here is an update.
My exhaust manifold gasket is blown and therefore is leaking when the car is running on the dyno. I told them to replace it, even though they will charge me 3-4 hours labor since they have to take off the turbo to remove the high-flow manifold. I don't have time to do it myself with work and whatnot so I just decided to give them the money and have it done by then. They won't be able to get to it until Wednesday of this week.

As far as the tuning goes, they saw that one of the fuel maps/trims did not get recorded last time so that's why the car was running like crap. That explains a lot but I am curious how it just didn't record or save.

So, expect an update on Thursday, which is when I will have my car back, hopefully [=(] [rolleyes]

dcampana
02-01-2010, 05:31 PM
oh man... good news but heavy on the wallet....

i hope its good to go for you on Thursday....

20vpower
02-04-2010, 02:49 PM
wait for it.....

dcampana
02-04-2010, 02:58 PM
yeah no doubt... on pins and needles......

any update?

viceprp
02-04-2010, 07:25 PM
Did they get to it?

97B518TQM
02-04-2010, 10:07 PM
Well,.. I still don't have the car [=(].
The good news is, they replaced the exhaust manifold gasket and resurfaced the exhaust manifold, which was warped.
The bad news is, so far they haven't gotten much more than 235awhp out of the car. They have taken the exhaust off and will dyno it tomorrow morning without it to see what difference that makes. Maybe one of my mufflers is very restrictive. They don't know what else it could be since they checked everything and my engine is in perfect condition. They have no clue what else it could be at this point, which is not what I was hoping for. I can't wait to see what it will dyno without the exhaust. I remember Christian from 034 telling me how when they upgraded Javad's A4 from a Neuspeed exhaust system to their 3" exhaust the car gained 30hp. I don't know if that true for sure but I hope that's the case with me. Their high flow cat was supposed to net me about 20hp gain but I gained 2hp from it. The torque did go up by around 15 ft-lbs.
Either way, I am picking up the car tomorrow no matter what the result is. I am hoping they are right and my exhaust is too restrictive for some reason since my mufflers are really quiet. If that is the case, I will get a custom 3" exhaust with some higher flow mufflers.
I will give you guys an update tomorrow once I have the car.

flynnr
02-05-2010, 09:42 AM
wow big letdown.... good luck man

97B518TQM
02-05-2010, 11:14 AM
SO they dynod the car without the exhaust on and it put down 250awhp and 275 torque. Quite a nice jump but still nowhere near 280awhp. I am guessing the california 91 gas is causing a lot of this but who knows. They said that even with the exhaust the torque went up significantly so that should be a noticeable improvement.
I am going to pick up the car during lunch so i will post more later on.

97B518TQM
02-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Ok. I have the car now.
It seems like the coils are going out since it was stumbling after 5800rpm with the exhaust off. They are saying that the spark is not strong enough and at the higher power levels there is more air flow and pressure and the spark is simply not strong enough. So it's either the coils or ICM (or POS), whatever it is called, I don't know anymore. My coils are old so that could be the whole problem and what's limiting my car's power output. I will look into this further.

SantorinRocks
02-05-2010, 01:07 PM
Too bad you didnt stick with the gt2x. Did you ever dyno that setup?

20vpower
02-05-2010, 02:03 PM
makes me really want to ditch my 2.5 exhaust and put on the 034 3" thats in my garage....

97B518TQM
02-05-2010, 02:57 PM
Too bad you didnt stick with the gt2x. Did you ever dyno that setup?

The gt2x did around 210awhp if i remember correctly but torque was 263.

dcampana
02-05-2010, 03:11 PM
glad to hear things got a little better for you. swap the coils and be good...

flynnr
02-05-2010, 03:24 PM
find someone else to swap coils with to test it out

97B518TQM
02-05-2010, 03:46 PM
find someone else to swap coils with to test it out

Easier said than done. I think I will just buy a set of new coils. Mine are old anyways.

20vpower
02-05-2010, 04:00 PM
I could swap coils with you but I have only bought 1 new coil last year and the rest are pretty much stock. So I dont think this will help much. However they dont stumble at 15psi on my t3t4, so far...

97B518TQM
02-05-2010, 10:09 PM
I could swap coils with you but I have only bought 1 new coil last year and the rest are pretty much stock. So I dont think this will help much. However they dont stumble at 15psi on my t3t4, so far...

Sure, we could do it. PM me if you are down to do it, you can come over to my house and we'll do it.

gmx
02-06-2010, 12:27 AM
worth considering the fcp groton special.
Got mine for $19/coil which is cheap for AEB replacements.

B5A4Kevin
02-06-2010, 06:05 AM
didnt you get a notice from audi about free coils? theyve got brand new shiny ones just waiting for you!

or if you have newer coils (revision R) they will reimburse you with a check in the mail.

RockyMountainB5
02-06-2010, 09:22 AM
didnt you get a notice from audi about free coils? theyve got brand new shiny ones just waiting for you!

or if you have newer coils (revision R) they will reimburse you with a check in the mail.

Stop teasing the poor guy, that recall was only for the late model B5's unfortunately.

20vpower
02-06-2010, 11:30 AM
Sure, we could do it. PM me if you are down to do it, you can come over to my house and we'll do it.

problem is my car is at my buddys shop waiting for a tranny mount bracket [headbang] had an incident going to the berkley meet. should have it tuesday

97B518TQM
02-06-2010, 01:09 PM
problem is my car is at my buddys shop waiting for a tranny mount bracket [headbang] had an incident going to the berkley meet. should have it tuesday

Ok, no rush. Just let me know.

97B518TQM
02-06-2010, 01:22 PM
worth considering the fcp groton special.
Got mine for $19/coil which is cheap for AEB replacements.

I just ordered me a set [:D] Thanks

b5v6
02-07-2010, 06:38 AM
about 3 or 4 years ago on the passat forums the fcp products were deemed junk....i would go with them, ever for $19/pc, especially on a modified car.

B5A4Kevin
02-07-2010, 07:28 AM
Stop teasing the poor guy, that recall was only for the late model B5's unfortunately.

oh does he have bolt down coils? i didnt realize he was aeb/atw. my bad

97B518TQM
02-07-2010, 03:24 PM
about 3 or 4 years ago on the passat forums the fcp products were deemed junk....i would go with them, ever for $19/pc, especially on a modified car.

I figured I'd give them a try. I use their control arms and so far absolutely no problems.

flynnr
02-23-2010, 12:53 PM
any update? did you get a post fix dyno yet?

97B518TQM
02-23-2010, 05:10 PM
any update? did you get a post fix dyno yet?

I haven't had the time to go dyno the car as I am bouncing from place to place with my job and I don't even have time to drive my car.
The good news is that the car is running perfect now and feels a lot faster. The new coils really woke it up, it's like a different car with a new engine. I can't wait to get it dynod but with the way my schedule is I might be soon selling it along with my Infiniti G35 and buying a B7 S4 for my daily driver. Now that I have gotten the car to this perfect shape with nothing left to upgrade it has gotten boring for me as I like working on it but there is nothing left to do. Plus not having any free time for anything else is really killing me. I have to find some free time for the wife too... it's not easy :)
Regardless, the problem was finally solved. flynn, I saw in your thread that you are wondering about getting the GT2871R. I would get it and do everything all over again because at the end it is well worth it. If you lived closer I would have given you a ride in my car so you can feel it and decide for yourself if you like the spool and the pull of the car. It really pins you in the seat. :) Just make sure everything on your car is in top shape because any weak spot will show itself with the increase in power. You saw what I went through until I figure it out.

viceprp
02-23-2010, 07:26 PM
I would get it and do everything all over again because at the end it is well worth it..

Bored huh? Ask and you may receive .. I got a '00 with listed mods. We can do a straight up swap. That way we both are happy lol

flynnr
02-23-2010, 09:05 PM
flynn, I saw in your thread that you are wondering about getting the GT2871R. I would get it and do everything all over again because at the end it is well worth it. If you lived closer I would have given you a ride in my car so you can feel it and decide for yourself if you like the spool and the pull of the car. It really pins you in the seat. :) Just make sure everything on your car is in top shape because any weak spot will show itself with the increase in power. You saw what I went through until I figure it out.

do you think you could get more power out of a 630 cc tune or even a 440cc?

and quick question... (first, see my current mods in sig) but we pretty much have identical mods done (minus turbo, injectors, tune, and maf) so i really only need these and should be good to go... do you think 034 can give me the exact tune you got? it sounds like yours is running great, and should have all along given better coil packs... so it seems like a reliable option... what tune do they use again?

97B518TQM
02-23-2010, 10:14 PM
Bored huh? Ask and you may receive .. I got a '00 with listed mods. We can do a straight up swap. That way we both are happy lol

No thanks, I have over $12k in upgrades and maintenance done to the car in the past 18 months alone. I was just looking at my spreadsheet with the records I have been keeping of all the expenses and it's just crazy how much I have done to this car.

97B518TQM
02-23-2010, 10:23 PM
do you think you could get more power out of a 630 cc tune or even a 440cc?

and quick question... (first, see my current mods in sig) but we pretty much have identical mods done (minus turbo, injectors, tune, and maf) so i really only need these and should be good to go... do you think 034 can give me the exact tune you got? it sounds like yours is running great, and should have all along given better coil packs... so it seems like a reliable option... what tune do they use again?

flynn,
the 440cc injectors are not maxed out with the gt2871r and according to the guys at 034 the 440 injectors give a better resolution for the tuning so it can be finely tuned.
The tune I got from 034 was a custom dyno tune. They could probably flash it to your ECU but different cars behave differently so the results might vary.
As for your mods and what you need, you need injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, maf housing, turbo, and tune to get on the road BUT you need to make sure you have upgraded motor mounts and all other mounts are in good shape because they will go bad quick due to the extra stress. My stock fuel pump was maxed out with the GT2X turbo as they couldn't push more fuel to make more than 200awhp. You will definitely run out of fuel with the stock pump even if you push the fuel pressure to the max.
This is all I can think of right now.

flynnr
02-24-2010, 06:23 AM
i already have a fpr, and will have to check on the mounts... i think i do but ill have to email the previous owner again... and what fuel pump are you using? and your sig says 415cc injectors, but you say 440cc right there... so which is it?

viceprp
02-24-2010, 09:51 AM
He probably ran 415cc with his gt2x

97B518TQM
02-24-2010, 09:56 AM
i already have a fpr, and will have to check on the mounts... i think i do but ill have to email the previous owner again... and what fuel pump are you using? and your sig says 415cc injectors, but you say 440cc right there... so which is it?

They are the green top Bosch injectors. Some places say they are 440 and some say they are 415.
The fuel pump is the 044 bosch or 005, I have to check my receipt to confirm which one. Either one is fine.

gmx
02-25-2010, 03:38 AM
That's weird... I know a lot of guys running around with stock fuel pumps on 28 frame series.
IIRC, some have pushed 315+ awhp on them without a problem.

dcampana
02-25-2010, 09:25 AM
^^ I am still running the stock fuel pump. not sure on my awhp as of now... but its pretty quick!!! per my "gtech" (reliable??? not too sure) its stating I am hitting 12.7 on average 1/4 mile time. as soon as the local track opens for the season I will find out for sure. trap speed is around 108-111 or so.....

so......

97B518TQM
02-25-2010, 11:10 AM
That's weird... I know a lot of guys running around with stock fuel pumps on 28 frame series.
IIRC, some have pushed 315+ awhp on them without a problem.

It really depends on the condition of the stock pump. I think mine was the stock one and it had quite a lot of miles on it. They said that some cars are ok with the stock fuel pumps and some can't push enough fuel for more than 200awhp. I don't know, maybe they just wanted to sell me a new fuel pump but I doubt it they would do that.

PSI NRG
03-10-2010, 12:03 AM
Have you maybe considered the clutch to be slipping a bit? Cause it would make sence. The motor would still see the boost increase but due to the power not getting to the wheels would cause a lower reading.

gmx
03-10-2010, 12:48 AM
That would cause inconsistencies in the power curve plot as well as be noticeable visually (ie tacho) and by feel.

AudiNFS
06-23-2010, 08:43 PM
Hi, I don't mean to interrupt or intrude but I need help and just signed up here. I need help on posting a thread? I have no idea how to and have read the "help" section and I think I don't have the permission to post a new thread. How do I do that? Thanks.