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View Full Version : Timing belt horror. NEED HELP PLEASE.



eurotecknik
01-21-2010, 09:42 AM
First of all I searched and found nothing regarding my issue.
The car: 2001 A4 1.8T Quattro.
The problem: Timing belt slipped off of camshaft.
Quastion: How do I retime the new belt when I do complete TB change?
Do I try to put the belt back on before taking off the TB tensioner and put it to TDC???
OR
Do I take everything off and THEN when reinstalling the TB put at TDC?? (keeping in mind the the TB WAS NOT at TDC on the first place.

A little history.
TB was replaced at 75K on the clock and right now the car has 90K on it.

I appriciate all your help guys. Go Audizine.
Thanks in advance.

Haenszel20v
01-21-2010, 09:45 AM
Step 1) Figure out why belt "slipped off". That doesn't just happen, something is broken.

Liv4Psi
01-21-2010, 09:46 AM
my question is, did valve hit pistons?

Haenszel20v
01-21-2010, 09:51 AM
my question is, did valve hit pistons?

Yes, 100%.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 11:19 AM
Well in that case, remove the head and have new valves put in. After new valves, turn camshaft to TDC and turn crank to tdc, reinstall head, put new tb on.

eurotecknik
01-21-2010, 11:22 AM
To clarify....Last time I drove the car I heard nothing unusual.
1. I drove for about 5 miles.
2. Parked the car in the garage.
3. Waited 2-3 minutes to cool down
4 Shut off the car.
Again all fine until then.
I was checking the oil level and noticed the plastic cover that covers the camshaft was broken and noticed that one side was out but NOT completely off the camshaft. Than, I took off the cover and the belt just fell off.
I am taking the whole front end off as we speak.
I will be doing headgasket change anyway so I will send off the head to a machine shop to get it checked.

Can someone answer the question in post #1 ???.
I know what damages and so forth possibly happened.
I just want to know what to do with setting up the timing before I take everything off because when I put it back on I want to make sure the timing is at TDC 100%.
I am super pissed considering the TB job was done 15K ago at an audi reputable shop.

Thanks.

NorCal1.8T
01-21-2010, 11:28 AM
I am super pissed considering the TB job was done 15K ago at an audi reputable shop.

Thanks.

Try going back to the shop and get on their backs about it, tb shouldn't just fall after 15K, especially if done by a professional hand. They should fix it.

jturnbull
01-21-2010, 11:45 AM
Take it to the shop im sure they have a warrantee on the parts and labor they supplied.

eurotecknik
01-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Well in that case, remove the head and have new valves put in. After new valves, turn camshaft to TDC and turn crank to tdc, reinstall head, put new tb on.

^^^ That makes sense but are there marks to set the crank to TDC??? I am taking the front end off now so I guess I will see but just wanted to make sure.

As far as taking it back to the shop, I've called and since it has been 2 years already, there is no warranty. 2 years and 15K and this is what I get[headbang]
Just my luck I guess.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 12:05 PM
There is a little mark in the crank pulley corresponding to TDC on the lower TB cover. I compared mine to the Camshaft marks if you take the valve cover off. Also I did this to make sure I was a TDC: With the #1 spark plug out, place a plastic straw in the hole and as you rotate the crank the straw will go up and down corresponding to TDC. I did that just to make sure. My new TB was so tight I had to advance the camshaft about half a tooth to make it fit. When the tensioner was applied, it returned to normal.

So your engine never ran with the TB off? If so, than your valves should be fine. My guess is that the tensioner bolt backed out enough that the TB could walk off the Camshaft pulley.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 12:12 PM
Yes, 100%.

How did the valves hit the pistons if the engine was not running at the time the belt came off?

I dont know about rotating the crank with the with the TB diconnected. You may want to put the TB belt back on, slowly rotate the crank and see if you can get to tdc, without the valves hitting pistons. If both the crank and the camshaft has not moved, then that shouldn't be a problem.

eurotecknik
01-21-2010, 01:40 PM
There is a little mark in the crank pulley corresponding to TDC on the lower TB cover. I compared mine to the Camshaft marks if you take the valve cover off. Also I did this to make sure I was a TDC: With the #1 spark plug out, place a plastic straw in the hole and as you rotate the crank the straw will go up and down corresponding to TDC. I did that just to make sure. My new TB was so tight I had to advance the camshaft about half a tooth to make it fit. When the tensioner was applied, it returned to normal.

So your engine never ran with the TB off? If so, than your valves should be fine. My guess is that the tensioner bolt backed out enough that the TB could walk off the Camshaft pulley.

I don't think the engine ran with the TB off. But there is really no way to be certain. Only thing I know is that last time I turned the car off everything seemed normal.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 01:58 PM
I would put the tb back on, rotate it to tdc, and put a new tb kit on. Why are you replacing the head gasket?

eurotecknik
01-21-2010, 09:29 PM
I will try to word my question differently and I hope I get the answer.
It is possible to turn the crank by itself and the camshaft by itselt to set up to TDC? My timing is off like 1/4 of a turn. Is it ok to do it like that? Then, when the new tb is on I will try to make 2 full turns by hand to make sure the timing is perfect.

jpcallmotor
01-21-2010, 09:44 PM
^^^ Yes, take off the valve cover and align the mark on the end of intake cam to TDC. There is a little arrow marking at the end of the cam, look at the end towards the firewall you will see it. Once the head is at TDC, you can then turn the bottom end over and align it. Once top and bottom is good, reset the tensioner, throw on the belt and turn it over a few times to check your marks. I would replace the belt and tensioner if I were you, just to keep it fresh.

Nebone
01-21-2010, 10:30 PM
While aligning, do not the the crankshaft counter clockwise.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 11:08 PM
Whats the danger of turning the crank counter clockwise?

Nebone
01-21-2010, 11:23 PM
Chance of loosening the crank bolt.

Avant Nate
01-21-2010, 11:53 PM
When I just did my TB, i didn't change my crankshaft seal, because I couldn't get the bolt loose.

LowSantorin
01-22-2010, 07:02 PM
Chance of loosening the crank bolt.

good point although id say its very highly unlikely, I tried getting one of those bolts off and no matter what we did it wouldn't budge, im sure compression wouldn't provide enough force for that to be loosened, and if the head is off there would be no compression anyway

AudiTechS4
01-22-2010, 07:12 PM
if your going to be doing any turning pull all coils and plugs and turn slowly its doesn't take much to beds a valve.pulling these lessens the amount of pressure to turn the crank thus letting you know if your contacting valves

B5A4Kevin
01-22-2010, 07:31 PM
Chance of loosening the crank bolt.

no fucking way. period. maybe on a crankwalking dsm 4g63, but not on a vwag engine.


unless it is already ungodly loose, you arent gonna loosen the ~250-300 ft pound (and probably rusty as hell/siezed) bolt (actual spec is 90nm +90* iirc). but anyway ive tried to get those ******s off with just a 500 ft-lb ingersol rand/snap-on impact. yea. no such luck, so i highly doubt turning the crank with a ratchet without counterholding it is going to do anything but turn the crank, and maybe bend some valves.

B5A4Kevin
01-22-2010, 07:37 PM
if your going to be doing any turning pull all coils and plugs and turn slowly its doesn't take much to beds a valve.pulling these lessens the amount of pressure to turn the crank thus letting you know if your contacting valves

very good tips.

also i dunno about the whole tdc the head, then the block thing. it may work but ive never tried it. id say the safest bet would be to remove the head, that way you avoid bending all together (unless they already are, and at that point you can tell very easily with a visual inspect.) if you decide to remove the head, id say leave the turbo and exhaust mani connected, but disconnect the intake mani just cuz it has way more shiz. best of luck to you. hope no dmg came of it.


oh and btw, id say if the belt was loose enough to "just fall off" id say the tensioner either took a shit, or was never replaced in the first place. if it never was replaced, then you have a case against the shop/technician who did it.

JK35
01-23-2010, 09:49 AM
no fucking way. period. maybe on a crankwalking dsm 4g63, but not on a vwag engine.


unless it is already ungodly loose, you arent gonna loosen the ~250-300 ft pound (and probably rusty as hell/siezed) bolt (actual spec is 90nm +90* iirc). but anyway ive tried to get those ******s off with just a 500 ft-lb ingersol rand/snap-on impact. yea. no such luck, so i highly doubt turning the crank with a ratchet without counterholding it is going to do anything but turn the crank, and maybe bend some valves.

x2 [up]what he said I BROKE a 3/4" drive SnapOn breaker bar last week removing the crank bolt on a Mercedes (very similar to these motors)
car on lift, the cool little flywheel holder that you bolt on and a 3/4" SnapOn breaker bar with a jack handle slipped over it as a "cheater" pipe. the breaker bar bent until it broke in half. SnapOn guy said he'd never seen one of those break in the 30+ years he's been selling SnapOn! (and quickly handed over a new one ;)

let me see if I have this straight...
your car ran fine last time you ran it.
you noticed something amiss, investigated and when you removed the cover, the timing belt just sort of "fell off" the motor?

Did I understand you to say that you are or HAVE pulled the head?
the biggest concern I would have (and of course this has already been pointed out here) is whether or not your valves made contact with the pistons???

If you pull the head, it should be clearly obvious.


As for HOW to correctly set the crank shaft AND the cams to their proper azimuth, the tech manual explains this well in a step by step format. if you don't have a tech manual, -get one.

If you need this particular section only for now -just to get you through this, I might be able to find something to email you. PM me with your email addy if you need anything

terraflata
01-23-2010, 09:56 AM
From what I understand there should be no damage to the head. The car never ran with the TB off. It fell off while it was shut off and obviously hasn't been started since......if this is the case don't f***ing touch anything and just put the TB back on and fix the peice (Tensioner) that allowed it to fall off in the fist place.

B5A4Kevin
01-23-2010, 10:33 AM
ya but his head, block or both are about 90 degrees out from tdc

terraflata
01-23-2010, 10:43 AM
ya but his head, block or both are about 90 degrees out from tdc

Why would they be? He played with the camshaft or crank pulley??

It doesn't matter if they are not TDC, they are still timed up. His engine was running just fine. Basically he stopped his engine took off his belt but didn't move either pully/gear. All he needs to do is put his belt back on and fix his tensioner. As long as he didnt touch anything the timing will be fine.

When replacing a timing belt you don't even need to put it to TDC, you just need to mark where are gear/pulley is so to make sure nothing moved....even then moving the crank or head is actually tough work.\

-Terraflata

eurotecknik
01-24-2010, 06:38 AM
I will update in a few hours and post pictures. The cylinder head is coming off.

Haenszel20v
01-24-2010, 06:59 AM
I will update in a few hours and post pictures. The cylinder head is coming off.

if it didn't run without the belt on(didn't realize you had the car off...magically) then I woudln't pull the head. I'd put it back together and leakdown test it.

What i WOULD look into is exactly what happened that made the belt fall off. I've never ever seen that before. I'd say its either a wretched tensioned failure, or the cam gear bolt backed out, and the cam gear came off with the belt... but you didn't say anything about hte second part, so I'm gonna guess its the first.

un1ko
01-24-2010, 07:14 AM
Hey, I'll be right there to help you take out the cylinder head.

somebody5788
01-24-2010, 07:24 AM
All of the questions you asked about marks for the timing belt would be easily answered if you downloaded or bought the Bently manual. The timing belt is very very clearly marked and the job is a piece of cake. I've done several of them.

walky_talky20
01-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Yeah, taking the head off is way overkill. Just take the plugs out so you can easily rotate everything to TDC. Just go slow and with the plugs out it will roll over very easily so you'll know if a piston touches a valve. Just get everything to TDC, do a t-belt job (with a good inspection to see whatever went wrong to cause this), new belt, tensioner, etc. Roll the engine over twice by hand to make sure it's all good. Maybe do a compression test. Put the plugs back in and start it up.

esee135
01-24-2010, 06:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzKHqLMtUcY

I personally like the part where he says, "when the belt breaks, bam!"

Looks like it's a Beetle Engine.

walky_talky20
01-24-2010, 07:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzKHqLMtUcY

I personally like the part where he says, "when the belt breaks, bam!"

Looks like it's a Beetle Engine.

"and the manufacturer didn't stand behind it"

So true. We've had several VW's in the shop where the belt broke before the interval. VW wouldn't do a thing. If it's not a Passat 1.8T, they don't care.

We've actually got a B6 A4 3.0 in the shop right now for a T-belt. They've got 140k miles (!!!) on the original belt. They cut it CLOSE, the belt is completely done, cracks, rips, etc. Lucky, Lucky.

powersmokin
01-24-2010, 08:13 PM
you need to make sure that its on tdc on the compression stroke.

eurotecknik
01-25-2010, 11:47 AM
Yeah, taking the head off is way overkill. Just take the plugs out so you can easily rotate everything to TDC. Just go slow and with the plugs out it will roll over very easily so you'll know if a piston touches a valve. Just get everything to TDC, do a t-belt job (with a good inspection to see whatever went wrong to cause this), new belt, tensioner, etc. Roll the engine over twice by hand to make sure it's all good. Maybe do a compression test. Put the plugs back in and start it up.

First I want to say thank you all for the great tips.
You are right, taking the head off is way overkill. But, I have a feeling that I have no other choice because if you remember not too long ago I made a thread about a overheating issue, which was never fixed. The car is overheating only while at a stopped position. Not only that but I noticed oil in my coolant tank and the oil coolar was replaced a year ago. Which leads me to believe it is the headgasket.

Pics to come of my progress.

walky_talky20
01-25-2010, 01:24 PM
I guess that is enough reasons to pull the head. Good Luck, I hope you get everything squared away.

eurotecknik
01-26-2010, 03:16 PM
Last picture of my car with all pieces together.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1229/picture043he.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/picture043he.jpg/)

Now:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6747/picture007qb.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/picture007qb.jpg/)
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5105/picture003lb.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/picture003lb.jpg/)

I am just waiting for the 6 point poly-drive head bolt tool to come in the mail and take off the cylender head.

Ready to pull the head off:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/166/picture016j.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/picture016j.jpg/)

Done!:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/30/picture017u.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/picture017u.jpg/)

Checking the valves:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2682/picture020e.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/picture020e.jpg/)

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2896/picture021yx.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/picture021yx.jpg/)

Cleaned up:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/611/picture023f.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/picture023f.jpg/)

Cylinder 1 and 2:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6797/picture026si.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/picture026si.jpg/)

Cylinder 3 and 4:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6130/picture027f.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/picture027f.jpg/)

Last shot for today:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4953/picture028c.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/picture028c.jpg/)

Avant Nate
01-26-2010, 08:30 PM
Is there any indication of why the TB slipped off? I still think your OK to put the belt back on and put it to TDC but I don't know if its necessary since your taking the head off. Good luck!

eurotecknik
01-27-2010, 05:00 AM
Is there any indication of why the TB slipped off? I still think your OK to put the belt back on and put it to TDC but I don't know if its necessary since your taking the head off. Good luck!

Seems like the hydraulic tensioner gave up. But I am not 100% sure. For that reason I am converting to a mechanical tensioner and a Kevlar Timing belt from 034 motorsport.
Thank you for the kind words. I am expecting to finish all of this very soon.