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Dynamite
11-28-2009, 12:51 PM
ok so I have always planed going elim and am nearly ready to (just gota buy my next motorbike then its all go). But there seams to be a few people around that have regretted the money they have dumped into there 1.8t's and think they should have just brought a s4 instead.
I want to know what is the handling potential of the a4 vs the s4 is. I know the s4 is more front heavy. But what are the other down sides or up sides to each. I am not looking for huge power, (have hotrods and ride motorbikes for that kinda thing) as it will still be a daily although it will still see the track about 4 times a year. the s4 would need to be chipped and the a4 will just be a GTRS or maybe a GT2871. so they will be about the same speed in a straight line. I will be upgrading the shocks etc on both (a4 already has sways) Without spending too much money on the handling which will go better and what would need to be done?

rjpeaks
11-28-2009, 12:55 PM
how about this?

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Sportwagon/SS-V-Series

wink wink

Seerlah
11-28-2009, 01:09 PM
What do you mean by handling? Suspension upgrades can be made to accomodate. But the torque difference and throttle response (boost) will be different with the A4 and S4. You must take into consideration that you have 1.8L of displacement on a 4 cylinder vs the S4 with 2.7 on a 6 cylinder. The S4 has 2 turbos to deal with, but they still have almost immediate boost. And when it comes to handling, torque plays a major role. And the S4 has more of it than the A4 does. They are 2 different cars, and really should not be compared. Though they may look the same, they are not. Suspension parts are interchangable (Quattro A4), but the way the engine delivers power makes all the difference.

The S4 is better in many ways, but the A4 also has it's oen advantages. One, the S4 would take much knowledge to be capable of working on it. The A4, not so much. It only really takes initiative and things only get simpler (ahem, and more frustrating). The A4 gets better gas mileage and is incredibly tuner freindly. If would basically come down to preferance. I myself would preferr the A4 over the S4 for a couple reasons:

1. Better gas mileage
2. Tunability that novices can learn to master installing themselves
3. Way easier to work on

As I already metioned, it really depends upon preferance. A GT2871R eliminator kit will place you on the same league as a chipped S4. And once an S4 is chipped, then the worry about the stock turbos blowing comes into play. A BT A4 will be as reliable as the person driving it is (meaning how it was installed, how it was run, how it was maintained, what supporting mods are involved, etc). The A4 and the S4 are not cars that should be compared, as they have 2 totally different engines. The body may look the same and share some parts, but they are 2 totally different automobiles.

Dynamite
11-28-2009, 01:21 PM
^^one of them would be nice, might be a bit out of the budget though. I like the older look better though they got a bit too ugly in the VE's. my olds have a 2003 commy wagon, its surprisingly nice to drive, they make a good work wagon for us. Would have to recommend them to someone looking to buy a good value large fast (well kind off) car.

Dynamite
11-28-2009, 01:33 PM
thanks, yea I realise the tq is way better in the s4, and it is tempting largely for that reason. I guess what I want as far as handling goes is just going around corners on crappy roads quickly (poor tarsal and gravel), I dont need to be able to accelerate out of them quickly (although a plenty of go for passing is good). at the track it is just fun, not serious racing for me, im not a grate driver and dont claim to be. You did bring up gas mileage which I had completely forgotten about, that is a very good point. As far as working on the cars I do everything myself, so how much worse is the s4 to work on? I have never been in an s4 or a bt or elim a4 or had a good look around in them.

biketsai
11-28-2009, 01:38 PM
I'll simply put it this way, a 16 year old can easily swap the turbo on an a4 (I've even fixed mine at my campus parking lot) while with the s4 you must pull the motor to change out a turbo.

Seerlah
11-28-2009, 01:42 PM
I have never been in a BT A4 or S4 (hopefully my first Bt A4 will be my own), but I like to learn. But if all you really are looking for is good handling around corners, then suspension upgrades can be had for any autombile. Find you a good set of coilovers (coilover shopping can be tricky, due to the options that exist), Hotchkis Sway Bars, and you are good to go. These suspension parts are interchangeable between the A4 and S4, depending. Then as for hp, tq, and power band go, that is a different story.

terraflata
11-28-2009, 02:41 PM
I have never been in a BT A4 or S4 (hopefully my first Bt A4 will be my own), but I like to learn. But if all you really are looking for is good handling around corners, then suspension upgrades can be had for any autombile. Find you a good set of coilovers (coilover shopping can be tricky, due to the options that exist), Hotchkis Sway Bars, and you are good to go. These suspension parts are interchangeable between the A4 and S4, depending. Then as for hp, tq, and power band go, that is a different story.

The A4 also has the advantage of being lighter and slightly better balanced. But nothing besides weight and engine will differ the two models, as every suspension component is interchangable between the two. I went with the I-4 becaue of the ease of use (working on it) and I would like my car to be as light as possible. I would love to get a Carbon Fiber roof made though. I think that would be nice.

gmx
11-28-2009, 07:23 PM
The A4 also has the advantage of being lighter and slightly better balanced. But nothing besides weight and engine will differ the two models, as every suspension component is interchangable between the two. I went with the I-4 becaue of the ease of use (working on it) and I would like my car to be as light as possible. I would love to get a Carbon Fiber roof made though. I think that would be nice.

+1

The S4 has weight distributed in the worst place possible.
The 2.7 is one heavy thing.

4.2 V8s are lighter for example.

S4NORICE
11-28-2009, 07:43 PM
The A4 also has the advantage of being lighter and slightly better balanced. But nothing besides weight and engine will differ the two models, as every suspension component is interchangable between the two. I went with the I-4 becaue of the ease of use (working on it) and I would like my car to be as light as possible. I would love to get a Carbon Fiber roof made though. I think that would be nice.

Yes, the A4 is indeed a bit lighter and arguably a bit better balanced. And yes, the suspension components are indeed interchangeable, however the spring & shock rates are NOT the same between the 3 B5 A4/S4 models (1.8t, 2.8, 2.7tt). They are different from one another.

Stock for stock the S4 handles better than the other 2, hands down. Yes it is a bit nose heavy, but for the street, its fine. If your going to autocross the car, then thats a different story. Park a stock S4 next to a stock A4 and you'll notice that the S4 sits about an inch lower than both the 2.8 & 1.8t B5's. But yes a 1.8t with suspension mods will handle better than an S4. Also, the factory brake setup on the S4 is far superior than that of the 1.8t & 2.8. That cannot even be argued.

Furthermore, a proper GTRS eliminator setup on a 1.8t is gonna cost some tall coin... And sorry, but you'll still have a tuff time beating a chipped S4 with downpipes and exhaust (stageII), especially from a dig. In order for a GT 1.8t car to beat a stage II S4 your going to need need a significant amount of boost, and that means your going to need connecting rods if you want to keep things together for an extended period of time. That means an engine pull. All in all, their is no replacement for displacement.

Also, K03's are just as much prone to failure on the 1.8t as they are on the 2.7tt, aside from the hot&coldside housings they are the same turbo. It comes down to one thing to make them last, clean oil at all times. I have 178k on my S4 with original turbo's and I boost 17psi all day long. I have also squeezed 210k out of the K03 on my 1.8t.

Tifun
11-28-2009, 07:57 PM
Not to rain on your parade but my gt28r car has walked away from at least4 different stg2 s4 cars. From digs and rolls, they aren't that quick. Everything else sounds spot on though [:)]

S4NORICE
11-28-2009, 08:36 PM
thanks, yea I realise the tq is way better in the s4, and it is tempting largely for that reason. I guess what I want as far as handling goes is just going around corners on crappy roads quickly (poor tarsal and gravel), I dont need to be able to accelerate out of them quickly (although a plenty of go for passing is good). at the track it is just fun, not serious racing for me, im not a grate driver and dont claim to be. You did bring up gas mileage which I had completely forgotten about, that is a very good point. As far as working on the cars I do everything myself, so how much worse is the s4 to work on? I have never been in an s4 or a bt or elim a4 or had a good look around in them.


Yes, the S4 is a bit more difficult to work on and more expensive to maintain. If you know how to work on a 1.8t, then you know how to work on the 2.7tt. Besides the fact that the 2.7tt has 2 turbo's the setup itself is basically the same as a 1.8t, you just have double the components in several areas. Many common parts under the hood of a 1.8t and a 2.7tt. The 1.8t can still be a bitch to work on anyway, I've practically done everything on the 1.8t.

If it were me, I'd go S4 and never look back, and that's coming from someone who has owned, driven, tuned, and worked on both. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved the 1.8t. The fact is, even if you just did a K04 setup, its still going to cost you a decent amount of money just to get on the same level as a stock S4.

But before you even consider a B5 S4, its extremely important to ask yourself this question and even more important to answer it honestly.

Can I afford to buy an S4 and have the turbo's blow the next day? That's a question that took me a couple years to be able to answer yes... A troublesome S4 can put a good dent in your bank account. In all honesty though, so can the 1.8t[:D]

If you do decide to buy an S4, do yourself a favor and do the fallowing
- set aside 6months to find a good one. (NO, NOT KIDDING HERE)
- test drive the shit out of them
- do a lot of research so you know how to identify an S4 shitbox (I encountered several during my search)
- get a 2001.5 or a 2002 (these late models had larger oil supply&return lines serving the turbo's)
- find one with a documented maintenance history

S4NORICE
11-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Not to rain on your parade but my gt28r car has walked away from at least4 different stg2 s4 cars. From digs and rolls, they aren't that quick. Everything else sounds spot on though [:)]

And how much boost are you running?

Tifun
11-28-2009, 09:10 PM
around 21-23psi It's on a 93 file. APR stg3, so it's a mild tune in comparison to other setups with most dynoing in the mid 250 range at all wheels. My car isn't fast by any means, quick...sure....but it's pulled on every bolt on chipped S4 to date that I've encountered. Like you and others have stated, different types of powerbands......And like you said, if I could have done it all over again I would have done an S4.....I have a love hate relationship with the 1.8t. It's a good motor, I love the reliability I have seen with it, I just hate it though.

S4NORICE
11-28-2009, 09:54 PM
around 21-23psi It's on a 93 file. APR stg3, so it's a mild tune in comparison to other setups with most dynoing in the mid 250 range at all wheels. My car isn't fast by any means, quick...sure....but it's pulled on every bolt on chipped S4 to date that I've encountered. Like you and others have stated, different types of powerbands......And like you said, if I could have done it all over again I would have done an S4.....I have a love hate relationship with the 1.8t. It's a good motor, I love the reliability I have seen with it, I just hate it though.


Tell your S4 buddies that something is wrong with their car, lol [:D] A good running Stage II S4 with downpipes will put down close to 250 at all 4's with out a problem. Good chance your driving skill is > than the S4 drivers. [drive]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328146.

S4NORICE
11-28-2009, 10:26 PM
+1

The S4 has weight distributed in the worst place possible.
The 2.7 is one heavy thing.

4.2 V8s are lighter for example.


That statement is completely false. [confused]

2000 S4
3384 lbs (2000 models had aluminum steering knuckles and no traction control making them a bit lighter)

2001-2002 S4
3,593 lbs

2001 A4 w/1.8t
3,241 lbs

2001 A4-2.8 na
3384 lbs

2004 S4 w/4.2L V8
3,925lbs

mholme
11-28-2009, 10:27 PM
^Pretty sure he's talking about the engine itself. Aluminum..

Kyle H
11-28-2009, 10:35 PM
^Pretty sure he's talking about the engine itself. Aluminum..

yup.

RockyMountainB5
11-28-2009, 11:24 PM
OP -
AS stated before, dont go S4 unless ur rich. Be prepared to dump the value of the car into it in a year or two.

Tifun
11-29-2009, 07:24 AM
Tell your S4 buddies that something is wrong with their car, lol [:D] A good running Stage II S4 with downpipes will put down close to 250 at all 4's with out a problem. Good chance your driving skill is > than the S4 drivers. [drive]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328146.

I get told that by everyone who has an S4. They just can't admit that a 1.8t is faster than their car with just basic mods.That's how I ended up in a few of those fun runs because some S4 guy was talking shit about my car and called me out when I said nothing(thanks to a few friends who think it's nice to bench race your car lol) and womped him. My buddy Jeff's car I've driven countless times, it feels way faster than mine due to the tq, however when we line up and both launch that doesn't seem to matter, I pull ahead with equal launches. His car was all refreshed at Vast too. I'm pretty sure it's running better than my turd.

Altech75
11-29-2009, 12:30 PM
I'll simply put it this way, a 16 year old can easily swap the turbo on an a4 (I've even fixed mine at my campus parking lot) while with the s4 you must pull the motor to change out a turbo.

Haha, omg that's so true. I just did it a couple days ago. That made my day.

Dynamite
11-29-2009, 12:32 PM
Hmm thanks for the info everyone. Im thinking after all of that that sticking with the a4 might be a better desion, gona keep doing the research though for a while. The reasons why I am thinking this at the moment are:
I have owned the a4 for a while, and I know its not a lemon, where as buying an s4 there would be a risk of getting one.
If the s4 dose brake its much harder and more expensive to fix, and I dont want the car off the road for too long as it is my DD and im not rich.
All in all I dont think the power over the 2 is different enough to faze me piticualy although in my opinion the s4 has a nicer power band.
The a4 is lighter and better balanced meaning the handling potential is better for what I want. a stock s4 will handle better than a stock s4 yes, but if you dump 3k at both then the a4 will be better for what I use it for (ie gravel and shit roads)

JohnBanks
11-29-2009, 03:38 PM
One of the tuner shops in Kansas city kansas said to me. Be glad you got an A4, I work on a ton of these cars and at least you can figure out how to do some of the things yourself or find parts.

He then said as far as an S4, I work on a ton of those also, and I never look forward to it, there is shit everywhere and everything costs a $1000 dollars and no matter how many times I do something something comes up on them that wasn't planned etc..

SeekB00st
11-29-2009, 04:12 PM
That statement is completely false. [confused]

2000 S4
3384 lbs (2000 models had aluminum steering knuckles and no traction control making them a bit lighter)

2001-2002 S4
3,593 lbs

2001 A4 w/1.8t
3,241 lbs

2001 A4-2.8 na
3384 lbs

2004 S4 w/4.2L V8
3,925lbs

I was just about to mimic your post. Happy to have scrolled down.

belinko
11-29-2009, 04:57 PM
Handling/Suspension + Skillz >>>>> Horsepower

You can make a 1000hp S4 or a 650+hp A4, they'll both be fast, which one's faster is heavily dependent on the type of driving and driver skillz.

I'm a little biased here but the A4 is much more maintainable, there's just more room to work in the engine bay compared to a V6 w/ 2 X the turbo hardware.

oneohone
11-30-2009, 10:44 AM
We can argue all day about the A4 and S4. The one thing I loved about my A4 was that it was so much easier to work on, engine wise. I need to replace the valve cover gaskets on my S4 and there is so much shit in the way compared to the 1.8t. I couldn't imagine gutting the precats without pulling the tranny or motor.

Now coming from a basically stock A4 to a stock S4 I can say the power gained is amazing. I can be in 5th, and just go into boost an pass all the cars I need to. That's something I couldn't do in my A4. Another thing I like about the S4 is the interior. Everything but the wood trim that's is lol. The only negative thing about my S4 is the gas mileage. I'm so used to getting high 20's low 30's with the A4. And the S4 gets real low 20's lol.

Both cars have an amazing amount of support behind them. They both are very mod friendly and both motors are solid. It all comes down to prefrence, you just have to drive both. Figure out what mods you plan to do, if any at all and go from there.

You also have to remember not everyone mods their cars. In stock form the S4 is better, but no doubt the 1.8t can be modded to be faster. Damn all this 1.8t talk makes me miss mine. I sold it at 145k and it ran better than it did when I got it at 105k.