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View Full Version : Looked at a B5 (1997 1.8TQM) today



jkomets
11-22-2009, 09:52 PM
I actually looked at another B5 (also 1997 1.8TQM) which ran much better but was in much worse condition visually, so I have good comparison. Anyway, this new one made an audible clickclickclickclick sound when pulling up. Not so much during driving. Also, it had no turbo whine and had much worse performance, the torque curve felt as flat as an NA I4's should. As an objective test, I let the clutch out and got it rolling in 1st at about 1500RPM and WOT'd to the redline. It did not push me progressively harder into the seat as it should have. Failed turbo? No dentist drill sound though. I figure if it's a failed turbo I can get the car much cheaper and replace the turbo with a better one and supporting mods. How much does a turbo replacement at the dealer cost? I would be using this figure to negotiate the price down.

There are three other problems with the car - an airbag light is on. Previous owner says he took it to the dealer to get it reset and it worked fine for a few months and came back. Then, the driver's seat heater doesn't work. Finally, the shift boot and knob are in positively terrible condition. How much do good replacements for these cost?

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Which leads me to my second set of questions:
Is it realistic to get a B5 1.8T and the following mods? Are the prices realistic? Are there better/cheaper ways to power? How much power should this setup make? I have seen figures around 375 bhp or 330 awhp for this. Correct?

Big Turbo Kit - GT2871R or GT28RS (this would include DV, wastegate, BOV, fuel components, other stuff needed) - $2500
Custom FMIC - $200
Stock-sounding Exhaust - $500
Boost gauge - $50
Boost controller - $100
Of course a good tune (this has to be local, right?) - Price?
Metal Air Intake (I just love the turbo whine and want to amplify it. I know no big power gains come from this.) - $50

Requirements:
No rods (want to DIY this without taking out the engine)
Pump gas
Passes emissions (what components would I still need to pass emissions? Not in CA)

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Thanks everyone. I have been lurking a while and decided to sign up so I can finalize my plans and get them rolling. This community is very helpful from what I have read. [:)]

RockyMountainB5
11-22-2009, 11:23 PM
That audible "clickclickclick" is most likely the cam chain tensioner - Expensive fix, but will prolly still work for a while.
Stand outside the car with the hood up, and have someone step on the gas. If it gets louder/more frequent - thats the tensioner. It should be pretty loud with the hood up.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Timing/Chain_Tensioner/ES2316/
Lucky for you, that version only costs $190 - the one for the AWM engine costs $450.
You need to remove the valve cover and intake-side cam to replace the tensioner.
http://www.ca-va.org/tech/camtensioner/index.html

andyrew
11-23-2009, 12:03 AM
Was it stock?

What are you used to driving?

The first time I got on it driving my car on the test drive I had to realize that im used to something completely different in power (944 turbo's, big v8's...). The car was even chipped and it did OK, but it was nowhere near the feeling of the chipped 944 turbo that I drove up to buy the car in.


If your car is stock, you will NOT feel the turbo. Its only got 150hp 0-60 in 9-10 seconds, 1/4 mile in 18? It is a HELL of a slow turbo. The stock turbo powerband realistically is way low, and comes on like a little punch, then dwindles down (on a chipped car).

Power figures. 330awhp would need the GT2871R, maybe water/methanol injection, and a bunch of boost. But you've forgot about a manifold. SPA has a cheap one, I think its around $300.

Tune should be 500-1k. C-Tapp is the name you want to search for on these forums, they are a tuner up north, but will setup your car for tunes that you can download to their ecu. (aka, you email them the issue, they work on the tune, and you download the new tune to your car).
I would shop around for a used BT kit from someone. I picked up my APR stage 3 for 3300 or so w/ intercooler bolt on ready. I spent some extra cash on a electronic boost guage and it was 100% worth the extra investment. I was able to tune my car to build boost how I thought it should (With a GT28R they give a strong Punch like the stock turbo, then dwindle down.. I turned my boost down at low rpms' and hold it all the way to 7200 for a very strong and predictable power output).

Take a look at my mods in my sig and the outputs I have, and the video at the end. This is what you have to look forward to.


Shift boot an knob, just find something you like on ebay. Or I think one of the forum sponsors builds them.

jkomets
11-23-2009, 12:40 AM
That audible "clickclickclick" is most likely the cam chain tensioner - Expensive fix, but will prolly still work for a while.
Stand outside the car with the hood up, and have someone step on the gas. If it gets louder/more frequent - thats the tensioner. It should be pretty loud with the hood up.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Timing/Chain_Tensioner/ES2316/
Lucky for you, that version only costs $190 - the one for the AWM engine costs $450.
You need to remove the valve cover and intake-side cam to replace the tensioner.
http://www.ca-va.org/tech/camtensioner/index.html
Thanks, this helps me a little in deciding the price I will offer the owner.


Was it stock?

What are you used to driving?

The first time I got on it driving my car on the test drive I had to realize that im used to something completely different in power (944 turbo's, big v8's...). The car was even chipped and it did OK, but it was nowhere near the feeling of the chipped 944 turbo that I drove up to buy the car in.


If your car is stock, you will NOT feel the turbo. Its only got 150hp 0-60 in 9-10 seconds, 1/4 mile in 18? It is a HELL of a slow turbo. The stock turbo powerband realistically is way low, and comes on like a little punch, then dwindles down (on a chipped car).

Power figures. 330awhp would need the GT2871R, maybe water/methanol injection, and a bunch of boost. But you've forgot about a manifold. SPA has a cheap one, I think its around $300.

Tune should be 500-1k. C-Tapp is the name you want to search for on these forums, they are a tuner up north, but will setup your car for tunes that you can download to their ecu. (aka, you email them the issue, they work on the tune, and you download the new tune to your car).
I would shop around for a used BT kit from someone. I picked up my APR stage 3 for 3300 or so w/ intercooler bolt on ready. I spent some extra cash on a electronic boost guage and it was 100% worth the extra investment. I was able to tune my car to build boost how I thought it should (With a GT28R they give a strong Punch like the stock turbo, then dwindle down.. I turned my boost down at low rpms' and hold it all the way to 7200 for a very strong and predictable power output).

Take a look at my mods in my sig and the outputs I have, and the video at the end. This is what you have to look forward to.


Shift boot an knob, just find something you like on ebay. Or I think one of the forum sponsors builds them.

Thanks for the in-depth response! I have driven a total of three 1.8TM, two quattro and one FWD. The latest quattro feels very different, like there is no turbo. I could feel it in the others. I am used to driving a Mitsubishi Lancer NA, and the newest 1.8T feels and sounds just like that. The others had progressively more torque until shortly before the redline.

I don't necessarily need 330 awhp, I just want basically the most power possible without having to swap internals. Also, water injection would not be as streetable as I would like. Would 330awhp be achievable without having to swap internals or water injection? If not I will set my expectations lower. :)

I'm a turbo lover, I like that medium acceleration and the building torque to a crazy punch at redline, having to shift often in the twisties. It makes sense though how you tuned your car if you're used to big V8s. I like them too, tried to buy a BMW 540i6 before the seller backed out. Does the APR Stg 3 have the GT28RS?

Wouldn't it be cheaper than $3300 to get the parts new if I put it together myself instead of using an APR kit? I see GT2871R elim kits that promise up to 400hp for under $2000, so is that way off? For 255awhp, you would have 340bhp, so shouldn't one of these "400hp" turbos be enough for your car's power? I'm not necessarily looking to autocross or race in general, I want a sort of fast, sort of luxurious, sort of cheap, sort of sleeper car, and the B5 A4 seems to have hit the best balance for me.

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Before we get 100% into upgrade talk though, can someone confirm my suspicions that something may be wrong with the car's turbo? The other two A4s I drove for comparison were definitely faster by the same amount and both owners said they were stock.

andyrew
11-23-2009, 09:10 AM
They were possibly chipped. Or the other quattro was chipped.

YOu shouldnt feel the turbo on the stock car, and the power you do feel should be comparable or maybe less than your lancer.


The apr stage 3 has the GT28Rs I do believe. or one of the variants (I can never remember) Though the stage 3 + has a GT2871R.

BTW water injection is great on a street car, I have it on my dads 944 turbo, it does more than just let you increase the boost, it cleans the piston tops and cylinders and prevents detonation or hot spots. Its a very good thing to do, I have it as number 2 on my wish list.

BTW you dont want to exceed 300awhp on a stock block for daily driving. My 255 is really quick and worries me when I think of bumping the boost up (Be aware im only on about 18-20psi, and can run 25 or more psi with meth or 100 octane). but Torque is what generally kills rods, and I have dialed out about 40lbs of torque for the purpose of that turbo feel that I love.

As far as money goes. Buying a used kit is always the best to go if its in good condition $$$ wise. And keeping your eye and mind open when you are ready (and not before) is a good thing. Keep in mind my kit included a $600 FMIC setup (Not an ebay kit..), but it was only about 300 more on top of the price.. I really cant see how you'll get the same amount of items new for less than 3k..

I think your turbo kit # is a little low. There is a sponsor on this board that has kits available that you should look at. Most people figure 3500 or more for a full turbo kit and you should not consider one that does NOT have a tune, this is why the APR kit is so popular, the tune is a very nice and mild tune for the street yet people like me have livened it up and are putting down very respectable numbers.
This is what you should look at in a turbo kit. Turbo, Manifold, Injectors, Tune, Hardware, Intake, Downpipe.

Look up the laws in your state, or go to your regional forum from audizine and ask what is allowed and how they test. I kept all my turbo stuff and will possibly go back to stock when I get a smog check, but I live in Ca.

A 400HP turbo kit (I assume your looking at ATP's website or something?) should be enough. Its always best to turn down the boost for the street, have a power level that you enjoy, throw on race gas and hit the track or say a sunday drive and rip the pavement open..

Try and find a car that already has the mods you want, there are a lot of BT cars for sale for cheap as dirt..

Coopa
11-23-2009, 10:53 AM
FYI, rods can be done without pulling the engine. [wrench]

jkomets
11-24-2009, 12:50 AM
They were possibly chipped. Or the other quattro was chipped.

YOu shouldnt feel the turbo on the stock car, and the power you do feel should be comparable or maybe less than your lancer.


The apr stage 3 has the GT28Rs I do believe. or one of the variants (I can never remember) Though the stage 3 + has a GT2871R.

BTW water injection is great on a street car, I have it on my dads 944 turbo, it does more than just let you increase the boost, it cleans the piston tops and cylinders and prevents detonation or hot spots. Its a very good thing to do, I have it as number 2 on my wish list.

BTW you dont want to exceed 300awhp on a stock block for daily driving. My 255 is really quick and worries me when I think of bumping the boost up (Be aware im only on about 18-20psi, and can run 25 or more psi with meth or 100 octane). but Torque is what generally kills rods, and I have dialed out about 40lbs of torque for the purpose of that turbo feel that I love.

As far as money goes. Buying a used kit is always the best to go if its in good condition $$$ wise. And keeping your eye and mind open when you are ready (and not before) is a good thing. Keep in mind my kit included a $600 FMIC setup (Not an ebay kit..), but it was only about 300 more on top of the price.. I really cant see how you'll get the same amount of items new for less than 3k..

I think your turbo kit # is a little low. There is a sponsor on this board that has kits available that you should look at. Most people figure 3500 or more for a full turbo kit and you should not consider one that does NOT have a tune, this is why the APR kit is so popular, the tune is a very nice and mild tune for the street yet people like me have livened it up and are putting down very respectable numbers.
This is what you should look at in a turbo kit. Turbo, Manifold, Injectors, Tune, Hardware, Intake, Downpipe.

Look up the laws in your state, or go to your regional forum from audizine and ask what is allowed and how they test. I kept all my turbo stuff and will possibly go back to stock when I get a smog check, but I live in Ca.

A 400HP turbo kit (I assume your looking at ATP's website or something?) should be enough. Its always best to turn down the boost for the street, have a power level that you enjoy, throw on race gas and hit the track or say a sunday drive and rip the pavement open..

Try and find a car that already has the mods you want, there are a lot of BT cars for sale for cheap as dirt..

It may be possible they were chipped, but both of the owners said stock. I will try driving another stock A4 1.8TQM for a comparison.

Where can I find a good selection of modified cars? Albuquerque is small so I couldn't find anything local. I would be willing to drive to get it if it's a good enough deal, but how do I find these listings? Thanks.

These are the kits I was looking at, yes, from ATP:

GTRS w/ 2871R elim Upgrade - $1690
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-151&Category_Code=VVWTK

GT28RS w/ GT2871R Upgrade - $2399
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-124&Category_Code=VVWTK

Of course I would get a separate tune for the kits as there is no software and turbos are almost useless without tunes. I'm not exactly looking for a full kit but rather looking to piece the parts together to save money. If I can find a used FMIC or so it would save me money of course, but how realistic is it to get the second option with the extras listed above? Of course this assumes I can't get a cheap modified A4 to start.

With water injection and emissions removal, I would like to avoid this because I would like to sell the car eventually without dismantling it. I know I will get less money for it, but it would be worth the work for me, and there is enough of a market for high-performance cars here that I can convince someone that a BT A4 is better than a stock S4 (which I do believe, depending on the level of modification).


FYI, rods can be done without pulling the engine. [wrench]

Wouldn't you have to pull apart the head? I would rather avoid that