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View Full Version : b5 a4 with 01e 6 speed swap



ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 03:30 PM
So i had the swap done at RAI motorsports. I provided them with the trans the axels and driveshaft and rear diff the rest they sourced for me. It was great for about 28 miles and then the rear diffirential exploded. Im guessing that no one checked to see if the rear diff had fluid in it. So i guess im buying a new rear diff and paying to have another one installed. tell me what you think.


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DGAFxxx
08-25-2009, 03:36 PM
damn. that sucks. Did you contact RAI?

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 03:43 PM
yes and now im buying a new rear diff and paying for install...again. I really would like to know what happened

A4Rob
08-25-2009, 03:47 PM
Who did you buy the parts from? I would contact them...

M_souren
08-25-2009, 03:48 PM
you shouldn't have to pay for that.

Turboe30FTW
08-25-2009, 03:52 PM
Fine line, you bought diff, but then again if they did install, was a fluid check involved in it?

Siena
08-25-2009, 03:54 PM
That looks bad.

You don't say what model your B5 is...

Was the rear differential ratio matched to the 01E trans?
Was the propshaft the right length?
Was the differential struck by debris in the road?

Looks more than a lack of oil problem, usually, the differential would just seize up. Yours looks like a howitzer went off in there, idk.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 03:55 PM
i bought the parts off a guy who parted out his s4.Dont have his contact info anymore. My only gripe is that these are very rare to fail. The only real cause to fail is to have drained the diff fluid. Who's responsibility is it to check it usually?

A4-Achtung
08-25-2009, 03:56 PM
Wow I hope you get everything resolved without having to spend too much more. I would raise hell and see what can be done about getting another diff for free. I would expect who ever installed it to make sure all the fluids were full and that what they were installing was in good shape for driving.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 03:57 PM
That looks bad.

You don't say what model your B5 is...

Was the rear differential ratio matched to the 01E trans?
Was the propshaft the right length?
Was the differential struck by debris in the road?

Looks more than a lack of oil problem, usually, the differential would just seize up. Yours looks like a howitzer went off in there, idk.


its a 98 audi a4 1.8t and the trans and diff came off same car. I believe my shop checked to make sure they matched the same fdr.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 04:01 PM
Wow I hope you get everything resolved without having to spend too much more. I would raise hell and see what can be done about getting another diff for free. I would expect who ever installed it to make sure all the fluids were full and that what they were installing was in good shape for driving.


I agree, but the owner of the shop is stating that since I brought the parts that he will not warranty it. I believe this is due to not checking fluid which in my opinion after talking to a few dealer techs is something you should always do when installing a diff new or not. As for when it happened, i was traveling 55 mph in a straight line. and then i heard a loud bang assumed it was one of my tires and pulled over to the side of the road.

Bimmerman
08-25-2009, 04:03 PM
So from the little driving you did do, how was the 6 speed compared to the 5?

Mawhitey
08-25-2009, 04:04 PM
Thats some crazy damage. Surely she made some noise before exploding as a warning sign?

I would assume the garage that fitted the parts ounus ends with the actual install as you supplied the parts. Its crap, but its how most garages do it. If they fit and supply, then it's all good, otherwise you are SOL sadly

Kudos with the swap tho, as i have done the 2wd equiv of this on my 1.8t

Inval1d
08-25-2009, 04:06 PM
OMG..

dcampana
08-25-2009, 04:07 PM
i second what Rob asked about who you bought the parts from. it looks like there is oil/ rsidue on the trunk fllor pan, but i dont know if it is new/ old...

I would contact the source you got the parts from to see if there are any warranties or wht not. does not make sense for the diff to go that quick...

man sorry about that.

biketsai
08-25-2009, 04:08 PM
I have a 4.11 rear diff if you want, $200 + shipping. PM me

I almost think that the 6spd swap wouldnt have been as bad on my car, like I wouldnt have needed to change out any of the rear end stuff just the trans and the driveshaft because I already had the 4.11 rear diff. Did you get new hubs for hte rear, etc?

dcampana
08-25-2009, 04:10 PM
edit... this is the first diff i have seen "explode" from lack of oil. that is crazy...

i would thinkt he installer would have checked fluids prior to releasing the car back. I dont own a shop so what do i know though...

hiwords1
08-25-2009, 04:23 PM
ok first of all, the part itself is the metal part. if they are installing it, they should have done it correctly, in other words, checked for fluid. if a diff is broken, it's broken. you would not have been able to drive 28 miles on it. i had my rear bearings done at a dealership and i did not give them any grease but i know they packed it because i'm still driving fine. if they weren't comfortable with the install, they shouldn't have done it. or they could've ask you for the fluid but they were sourcing other stuff for you anyways. the owner should definitely get you another diff installed for you. i know RAI has people on here so you tell the owner that you'll spread this all over the sites, he may give in. it's bullshit what they're pulling, they're supposed to specialize in VAG cars

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 04:26 PM
So from the little driving you did do, how was the 6 speed compared to the 5?

it was great, car felt much more solid and I had a little trouble getting used to having a sixth gear which was great for the highway. I think i need to look into getting a short shifter as shifting into reverse is not easy. They also installed a 3 inch turbo back exhaust(no resonator or muffler) which was much quieter than running just a downpipe to the ground.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 04:36 PM
so i was quoted 450 for a new rear diff and 170 for install. When this is over i will see if i can get a list of parts for anybody else who wants to do this. I do know that they ended up installing s4 carriers and brakes and buying new front axels even though i had s4 ones already. I believe that it was that they couldnt figure out how to adapt the setup using parts from the a4 and s4 axels. Also they had me replace all the control arms to.

biketsai
08-25-2009, 04:38 PM
PM ME!!! I have a 4.11 Final Drive rear diff, same as the s4!! $200

Siena
08-25-2009, 04:42 PM
ok first of all, the part itself is the metal part. if they are installing it, they should have done it correctly, in other words, checked for fluid. if a diff is broken, it's broken. you would not have been able to drive 28 miles on it. i had my rear bearings done at a dealership and i did not give them any grease but i know they packed it because i'm still driving fine. if they weren't comfortable with the install, they shouldn't have done it. or they could've ask you for the fluid but they were sourcing other stuff for you anyways. the owner should definitely get you another diff installed for you. i know RAI has people on here so you tell the owner that you'll spread this all over the sites, he may give in. it's bullshit what they're pulling, they're supposed to specialize in VAG cars

A differential with any weakness is a time bomb waiting to go off. I had the same occur many years ago, in my RS2-engined Coupe quattro. No noise, no judder, then it exploded. Mine was the front differential though. Nothing to do with lack of oil, in my case. Differentials do fail, it can fail due to excessive backlash, and could be quiet and smooth just before it goes bang.

As for RAI installing it wrongly...how? A rear differential can only be fitted one way, it either fits, or it doesn't, simple. I don't know any other way to install a rear differential, but what do I know? [rolleyes]

Then we come to the source...I doubt anyone parting an S4 privately, will offer you a warranty, besides telling you it came from a working car. So, as for asking him for a replacement, or refund, I wouldn't bother. It won't happen.

Your advice to the unfortunate owner, telling him to spread their "incompetence" all over the net, unless they replace the differential free of charge, is nothing short of blackmail. Can you prove their workmanship caused failure? I have never seen a differential explode due to lack of oil. I've seen them seize up, but that's about all. Failure can also occur if there's excessive backlash, between the crownwheel and pinion.

There's only so much "checking" one can do to a rear differential. Bar checking, and / or adding / changing the oil, visual inspection of external seals, and the casing for cracks, what else would you suggest? A full inspection will require a tear down and reassembly, which would involve new gaskets, shims, bolts and associated parts, which would exceed the value of an old B5. We're talking used parts here.

It's always best to be in possession of all facts, before crucifying a shop that carried out work, on a car that doesn't belong to you, and you know just one side of the saga.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 04:44 PM
I was told that car had been driven to a techs home and back and it rode perfectly fine for me for approx 28 miles. It was absolutly smooth and quiet untill the bang. I guess its just my luck.

Bimmerman
08-25-2009, 04:44 PM
What was the total parts cost. minus the replacement diff? What kind of gains do you get with the swap?

Siena
08-25-2009, 04:48 PM
I was told that car had been driven to a techs home and back and it rode perfectly fine for me for approx 28 miles. It was absolutly smooth and quiet untill the bang. I guess its just my luck.

That's it. Just bad luck, or a weak differential.

A differential without oil will hardly ride smooth and quiet, it'll be all grumbly and angry.

Bimmerman
08-25-2009, 04:50 PM
Just about any shop out there will not warranty any used part they install. A lot of shops now will not warranty a part even if it is new if you do not buy it from them.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 04:53 PM
I agree this post wasnt to criticize a shop. It was for me to gather information and opinions. The only thing as the consumer i feel was a let down was that the diff fluid was'nt checked, after talking to a few mechanics i have found that checking the fluid on a diff is included on the installtion of a diff in the case of a new and especially a used diff. As for the rest of the work done by this shop i have been extreemly happy. I cant wait to make the motor more powerfull to go with this drivetrain.

the_pirate
08-25-2009, 04:54 PM
PM ME!!! I have a 4.11 Final Drive rear diff, same as the s4!! $200

PM this guy already! [;)]

Sucks balls. I would like to know the final cost....before the rear diff. exploded.

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 05:03 PM
i got the whole s4 drivetrain for around $1000 (cant forget the 6 speed shift knob)
s4 subrframe for $150
awe drivetrain stabilizer $100
the bill before the diff blew was $6800 including all new control arms new rotors s4 brakes
and a custom built aluminized 3" exhaust

the_pirate
08-25-2009, 05:16 PM
Holy crap!

ogemtakool
08-25-2009, 05:32 PM
??

oneohone
08-25-2009, 05:35 PM
Wow, I had no clue that they actually exploded! Damn!

urban96
08-25-2009, 06:15 PM
6800?!? you must really love that car

mike-2ptzero
08-25-2009, 06:31 PM
i second what Rob asked about who you bought the parts from. it looks like there is oil/ rsidue on the trunk fllor pan, but i dont know if it is new/ old...

I would contact the source you got the parts from to see if there are any warranties or wht not. does not make sense for the diff to go that quick...

man sorry about that.

1 problem, he bought the part not the fluid. Usually when you do a swap using used parts you always end up changing the fluid anyway because then you know exactly whats in them. You wouldn't buy a used engine and expect it to show up full of oil and coolant would you?

Bimmerman
08-25-2009, 07:49 PM
No way I would spend the $6800. You could sell your car and put that cash with it and have a very nice S4.

Only way I would consider this swap would be to source the parts cheap and do th work myself.

mike-2ptzero
08-25-2009, 08:48 PM
Thats just a lot of money for just getting lower rpms at fwy speeds and a shifting that feels way worse then the stock transmission.

biketsai
08-25-2009, 09:02 PM
Damn, 6800!!

petera4
08-25-2009, 09:20 PM
regardless any shop that installs a diff its their responsibility to check the oil level and advise you to change it

urban96
08-25-2009, 09:30 PM
regardless any shop that installs a diff its their responsibility to check the oil level and advise you to change it
even if they did/didnt it was a used part in unknown condition, if your the shop owner what would you do?

ogemtakool
08-26-2009, 12:08 AM
This car has always treated me well. My old roommate had an s4, i drove it quite a bit and it was always having issues and it felt alot heavier when auto-crossing. I guess im just a sucker for a nice a4.

ogemtakool
08-26-2009, 12:12 AM
Thats just a lot of money for just getting lower rpms at fwy speeds and a shifting that feels way worse then the stock transmission.
actually to me it felt a lot better than the stock tranny, speaking of i have a stock tranny with second gear syncros gone and a diff if anybody is interested

mike-2ptzero
08-26-2009, 08:09 AM
actually to me it felt a lot better than the stock tranny, speaking of i have a stock tranny with second gear syncros gone and a diff if anybody is interested

Odd seeing that even S4 owners say the 01A feels better and that includes the owner of JHM. So I guess your the only one that feels that way. I have drag raced a few S4's and have to say it is no where near as smooth when shifting thru the gears quickly then the 01A which is why I wont stuff one in my 10 second A4.

RAI Motorsport
08-26-2009, 08:30 AM
look this is a crappy situation. we obviously did not want something like this to happen. but as of this morning i am more confident that there was fluid in the diff. The tow truck driver says he had a good amount of fluid on the bed of the truck, their is also fluid on the underside of the car. the gears and such have no shear or wear that would be in line of operation without fluid. Also after speaking to some very trusted mechanics i know they all say we would have heard gear noise.

We put tons of time into logans car, he knows we went weeks with this thing sitting on our lift, we put many hours into it that i never billed for. When logan contacted me with his project i told him it would be very expensive, but to try and help him with the project we did the billing on it in a really simple manor that was very unfair to us. We charged manual based time for the removal and installation of components. We charged each job function only once. for example we removed and installed the transmission several times to ensure fitment and operation of the clutch, we billed one time removal and install, we did the same thing on many of the components we had to use to do this. about half of his bill was related to parts, we gave him lots of parts at our cost. This project wasnt about money, it was to help him out. This car spent weeks on one of my lifts, logan saw this himself. I always like doing these types of projects that are tough and require a lot of figuring things out. I now really regret trying to help you logan. I should have just billed everything at retail and then i would no problem covering your differential, even though in no way any shop covers used customer supplied parts. i really tried my best to help with your situation, im sorry we let you down, i did everything i could considering we covered a lot of you bill cost. I did have a tech drive it home, he lives pretty far away and did get good mileage on it, i still told you i wanted more time to quality control it. I hate having to let vehicles go that undertook so much work without quality control.

Bottom line we were supplied parts to do a job, we were instructed what to do by the customer. you did request a transmission fluid inspection (again something we did for free) i wish you would have asked the same about the diff. The differential was never a question, I was told it all came out of a perfectly working car. I feel terrible this happened, i feel worst that after all the work that went into your car by all of my guys you would put up a thread like this. Its funny that yesterday i called you to give an update and offered to help you out in discounting the cost. I regret this now, but will still honor what I said. I wish you would have seen after the amount of work that went into your car vs hours we billed for that we were not ever out to get you, or hurt you in any way. i hate having regrets.

dcampana
08-26-2009, 09:25 AM
^^ Ray... If you read through the posts, most of us state that we think it was more than a fluid issue. I have never seen a housing "explode" due to no fluid. i think the parts are in question more in particular than that of the fluid or not.

I am also wondering if the differentials were incorrect gearing (front and rear) which caused this to happen. Again, the torson center would need to compensate this (somehow- someone will chime in and correct me I hope)... i think that is the bigger issue than the install itself.

Being a reputable AZ sponsor you should not have regrest in helping, as a big thumbs up for taking ont he project... A loss for your company but ingenuity can get you leaps and bounds ahead. also, to honor you commitment to Logan shows its about the customer member which is big kudos in my book. FWIW...

I will follow this through to see how it goes!!!

RAI Motorsport
08-26-2009, 09:38 AM
^^ Ray... If you read through the posts, most of us state that we think it was more than a fluid issue. I have never seen a housing "explode" due to no fluid. i think the parts are in question more in particular than that of the fluid or not.

I am also wondering if the differentials were incorrect gearing (front and rear) which caused this to happen. Again, the torson center would need to compensate this (somehow- someone will chime in and correct me I hope)... i think that is the bigger issue than the install itself.

Being a reputable AZ sponsor you should not have regrest in helping, as a big thumbs up for taking ont he project... A loss for your company but ingenuity can get you leaps and bounds ahead. also, to honor you commitment to Logan shows its about the customer member which is big kudos in my book. FWIW...

I will follow this through to see how it goes!!!

thanks man, ive always been very direct so understand when i say that really take things like this to heart, i mean it. i know it would be better to not regret it and probably bigger of me to be that way but for me feeling this way right now, i wish i never did it. i did see many members take a step back and look at the situation from a "outside perspective" and many valid points were made, this i am very greatfull for, guys like this is one of the main reasons we are here. Ill be the first to tell you, in this industry things dont always work as planned, we have spent tens of thousands of dollars to make sure things are corrected, and our customer is happy. again thanks so much for some re-assurance but this is still beating me up and will for weeks to come.

the gearing was all correct, we did verify this.

biketsai
08-26-2009, 09:43 AM
The best thing for that situation is to have replaced the fluids ahead of time, but thats too late. Just get a new diff and call it a day!

dcampana
08-26-2009, 10:40 AM
any changes from stock warrants potential problems for sure. these custom swaps are prosseive in changing the options for all of us, and in this there are costly learning situations....

ogemtakool
08-26-2009, 11:44 AM
look this is a crappy situation. we obviously did not want something like this to happen. but as of this morning i am more confident that there was fluid in the diff. The tow truck driver says he had a good amount of fluid on the bed of the truck, their is also fluid on the underside of the car. the gears and such have no shear or wear that would be in line of operation without fluid. Also after speaking to some very trusted mechanics i know they all say we would have heard gear noise.

We put tons of time into logans car, he knows we went weeks with this thing sitting on our lift, we put many hours into it that i never billed for. When logan contacted me with his project i told him it would be very expensive, but to try and help him with the project we did the billing on it in a really simple manor that was very unfair to us. We charged manual based time for the removal and installation of components. We charged each job function only once. for example we removed and installed the transmission several times to ensure fitment and operation of the clutch, we billed one time removal and install, we did the same thing on many of the components we had to use to do this. about half of his bill was related to parts, we gave him lots of parts at our cost. This project wasnt about money, it was to help him out. This car spent weeks on one of my lifts, logan saw this himself. I always like doing these types of projects that are tough and require a lot of figuring things out. I now really regret trying to help you logan. I should have just billed everything at retail and then i would no problem covering your differential, even though in no way any shop covers used customer supplied parts. i really tried my best to help with your situation, im sorry we let you down, i did everything i could considering we covered a lot of you bill cost. I did have a tech drive it home, he lives pretty far away and did get good mileage on it, i still told you i wanted more time to quality control it. I hate having to let vehicles go that undertook so much work without quality control.

Bottom line we were supplied parts to do a job, we were instructed what to do by the customer. you did request a transmission fluid inspection (again something we did for free) i wish you would have asked the same about the diff. The differential was never a question, I was told it all came out of a perfectly working car. I feel terrible this happened, i feel worst that after all the work that went into your car by all of my guys you would put up a thread like this. Its funny that yesterday i called you to give an update and offered to help you out in discounting the cost. I regret this now, but will still honor what I said. I wish you would have seen after the amount of work that went into your car vs hours we billed for that we were not ever out to get you, or hurt you in any way. i hate having regrets.


I agree this post wasnt to criticize a shop. It was for me to gather information and opinions. The only thing as the consumer i feel was a let down was that the diff fluid was'nt checked, after talking to a few mechanics i have found that checking the fluid on a diff is included on the installation of a diff in the case of a new and especially a used diff. As for the rest of the work done by this shop i have been extreemly happy. I cant wait to make the motor more powerfull to go with this drivetrain.

As stated earlier I am very happy with the work. I explained earlier what I was posting this thread for. I wanted second opinions and answers as to why this would happen. I am sorry that you have remorse for working on my car, because I on the other hand have no remorse for having your company work on my car. I am just a consumer trying to learn more about his product. I am also trying to find out possible answers as to why this part failed. As a consumer I would be considered naive to not ask for a second opinion.

P.S. Cant wait to get my car back, i hope its ready before h20

ogemtakool
08-27-2009, 02:27 PM
this is next for for you rai

i was thinking 3076 vband hot side
40mm wastegate
unitronic bt software
probably custom fmic unless otherwise recomended
what size injectors?
what rods?
any other idea?

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/ogemtakool/IMG_0221.jpg

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/ogemtakool/IMG_0222.jpg

mike-2ptzero
08-27-2009, 04:09 PM
034 Motorsport old tube manifold that they no longer make?

ogemtakool
08-27-2009, 04:28 PM
yeah i bought this off them 2 years ago. Never got to install it. Will be going on soon hopefully.

Jc61990
08-30-2009, 08:21 AM
any updates on this?

ogemtakool
08-30-2009, 08:43 AM
not yet still waiting to hear back from RAI, they ordered me another diff with carrier, i will have pics up and more info as soon as i get car back.

ogemtakool
08-30-2009, 08:45 AM
i have a ton of spare parts now up for sale. a4 carriers, a4 axels, s4 front axels, 5 speed a4 trans with 2nd gear issues, a4 rear diff, a4 driveshaft, let me know what you need and i will take some pics

biketsai
08-30-2009, 01:47 PM
i have a ton of spare parts now up for sale. a4 carriers, a4 axels, s4 front axels, 5 speed a4 trans with 2nd gear issues, a4 rear diff, a4 driveshaft, let me know what you need and i will take some pics

Good opportunity if someone wants to 5spd swap!

Jc61990
08-30-2009, 02:00 PM
Good opportunity if someone wants to 5spd swap!

I already got a source for everything with a working trans not one with bad 2nd. So this is up for anyone else