[UPDATED] The HPFP Upgrade Thread. (THE APR, AWE, KMD, Autotech, compared!)

[ataylor]

Why do we upgrade our fuel pumps? Thread here: Click (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250112)

For those of you that don't know the difference between the upgrade options here it is*:

KMD (got mine discounted $230, originally $270, now price has raised to $300 (as of 8/25)):


sends you the parts,
gives you documentation on the DIY install, what not to touch with your fingers, etc.
You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Some info about the KMD's rebuild kit itself:


KMD has used hardened tool steel for the construction of its pump, the material and finishing decisions were to made to specifically combat expansion.

KMD will be offering a 1 year warranty on all the parts included in their kit.

In order to achieve the best possible performance from your fuel pump kit, its is important that you have the most updated factory fuel pump and also have your cam lobe inspected for any unusual wear.

The most updated part numbers for the factory fuel pump is 06F 127 025 J, pumps ending with H will also be ok. No warranty claims for earlier pump revisions will be accepted.

This part number is located on the black plastic sensor on the pump itself.

APR customers should be warned that APR's fuel pump programming is extremely aggressive and may lead to a failure of the fuel pump. This is an "at your own risk" scenario. the non fuel pump specific software is not as aggressive and therefore can be used with the same confidence as other programs.

KMD has also released 40% larger FSI injectors, these injectors have currently supported over 400whp on an FSI motor and will very shortly be making there way into my car.


Product page is here: http://www.kmdtuning.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1153


AWE ($399):


sends you the parts,
gives you the documentation + a video on how to do the upgrade,
You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Product details:
http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shared/part_detail.cfm?PMaI=1&PMoI=35&PEI=25&PP=b7_a4_20t_drivetrain.cfm&PPT=Drivetrain&IL=fsihpfp

that video can be found here:
http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/video_AWE_FSI_HPFP.cfm ,


APR ($649):


receives your fuel pump,
runs it through some testing on their fuel pump test stand,
and if your pump is in good condition, installs their upgrade,
tests again, and
mails it back to you.

Product details here: http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

AUTOTECH: ($399)


sends you the parts,
gives you documentation on the DIY install, what not to touch with your fingers, etc.
You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Product page here: http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_fuelinj.htm
Product details here: http://www.autotech.com/instructions/i127100k.pdf

*mfrs: you can chime in if I have any of this wrong, obviously.

Why I'm writing this:
So the last time I was talking about fuel pumps, I was in a battle with Audi over my fuel cut issues, and the destruction of my HPFP, cam follower, AND my cam. In short, everything was replaced under warranty after some back-and-forth and citing of the magnusson-moss warranty act. I've put about 4k on the car since then.

That thread is here (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293537)

innocent trip at first:
The reason for detailing of these offerings from these manufacturers, is that today I decided to swing by NorthAmericanMotorsports (http://www.namotorsports.net (http://www.namotorsports.net/)) in Vernon, CT. While I was there I was talking with Nick (also has a B7 A4) and he whipped out this little bit of excitement:

Trouble in a plastic baggy:
http://www.atdesigner.com/audi/kmd-hpfp-kit.gif
(of course I gotta sneak the new wheels in there)

it's really a sickness:
I wasn't planning on buying any performance upgrades... in fact getting rubber for the wheels and getting them on the car was the last thing I wanted to do this year. But with the KMD HPFP upgrade was sitting there right in front of me, on a day when I had been unexpectedly paid.. it was too much to resist. It is the cheapest way to go about upgrading your fuel pump.. as you do the upgrade yourself and (in this case) there was no waiting for shipping involved, and no down-time without my car. Please remember that upgrading your fuel pump, without testing, should really only be considered with new-revision pumps, with low miles on them. More on this below..

For my situation... KMD over awe, autotech, apr solutions:
Since I have a new fuel pump from Audi (only 4k on it) I'm pretty confident I don't need to pay to have it tested in a HPFP tester prior to being upgraded. If it was a pump with 20k on it, I wouldn't have bought the KMD product—or any rebuild kit for that matter. If you have a high mileage pump, or a pump that's been running chipped for 10k or more.. send it to APR. Don't take the chance..

Discount:
Finally, I was selling back my like-new NewSouth Pod and Gauge package because I upgraded to a VEI digital gauge and PODI.ca gauge. I was going to mail it back to PODI for a $40 refund on my purhase, but sold it back to NAmotors instead, and avoided shipping something to Canada for a $5 net return. Sorry, Winston! Anyway.. this got me $40 off the KMD kit. I can't say it enough guys, DEAL WITH NAMOTORSPORTS. Nick Wagner will find a way to hook you up.

So anyway I went for it.. and I'll be installing it Wednesday after work. When that happens, I'll edit this thread and change it to an install DIY or overview. Then when I return to NAmotorsports next Sat. to get re-flashed with the HPFP file.. I'll write a real review.

My other reviews (if you find them helpful.. +rep [>_>])
VMR Test pipe (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304392)
VEI Systems Digital Boost Gauge (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302424)
Koni FSD/Eibach Pro + RS4 Swaybar (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291723)

[AWDTURBO]

i met the guys from NAM at waterfest cool guys!

[Mike@APR]

APR ($649): receives your fuel pump, runs it through some testing on their fuel pump test stand, and if your pump is in good condition -- installs their stuff and mails it back to you.

*mfrs: you can chime in if I have any of this wrong, obviously.



Please allow me to correct you on the APR FSI Pump Rebuild Process. When we receive your pump, we DO test the pump as-is in order to determine if there are any issues with those items that we DO NOT replace as part of the rebuild. This includes the Solenoid-Controlled Pressure Valve, the Pulsation Damper, and the housing unit in general (fittings, seals, etc.). The pump is then rebuilt with APR internals and then tested AGAIN to verify the that the APR parts are running correctly and that there were no issues during the assembly process.

So, you are not exactly paying just to have your as-is pump tested and then rebuilt. You are paying to have your pump (1) Tested As-Is (OEM), (2) Rebuilt, and (3) Tested Again to Meet APR Specs.

I just wanted to clarify this because of the way you worded your statement about our rebuild process. If I were a general consumer reading your original post, I would think that APR tests my pump as-is and then rebuilds it and ships it. And if I had an brand new pump, I would feel the same way that you do. However, the first test we do is only to ensure that we are rebuilding a known good pump. The second test is where we verify that our rebuild process has given you a pump that...

1. Will not seize
2. Will make the target flow rate at full vehicle rail pressure (we test each pump at 130 bar or 1886 PSI)
3. Meets efficiency standards that are at least as good as the OEM pump
4. Will not leak fuel into your oil system due to faulty or worn seals (it is easy to damage a seal when rebuilding a pump. In the case of the DIY pump kits, you won't know until you smell your oil and realize it has been diluted by gasoline. Not to mention, brand new seals are part of every APR rebuild)
5. Has a properly functioning solenoid valve to ensure that demand for fuel is always met with pressurized fuel from the pump

Now, like I have always said, this doesn't make us perfect or God-like in any way. However, we believe that these are the minimum basic requirements for selling this type of product. Honestly, how many of you feel comfortable buying something that has never been tested? What if Audi never started your car and ran it though a basic quality control process before placing it for sale at your local dealership? These questions will help you get an idea of what ran though our minds when we decided that testing was necessary for this critical part.

This is not meant to start a pump war in this thread. I am just stating APR's position on the matter for clarification since our name was used as a reference for comparison by the OP. [up]

[ataylor]

thanks Mike - edited for accuracy [up] The whole point is to have an accurate comparison for people shopping for these products or at least searching in this forum for their options.

If any thing else needs correcting anyone should feel free to speak up. To be honest I really started this thread because I always thought when the time came for hpfp - I would send mine in to APR! Getting a new pump to work with, and coming across this deal .. it's really the only time I'm be ok with not putting the thing through testing. But any pump over 20k or that's been running chipped for ~10k.. I would essentially want a new pump with the rebuild.

I do need to be careful with the seals. Let me ask you this -- do you think this is not a procedure that can be done properly by the customer? Should the idea of pump rebuild kits for DIY not be available? I know it's supposed to be a delicate procedure -- but lets hear from some people who have done it + length on the setup?

will post(link to) install videos later

[RedS-line]

ataylor, i had my cam and follower replaced but they did not replace my fuel pump. since i passed 40k, i bought a brand new pump and had it rebuilt by kmd with zero miles on it. I kept my old fuel pump as a backup. So far i've driven it for a few thousand miles without a problem. The power after the 2+ flash is good when its cold out but in this summer i dont see much of a difference during the day so if you dont have an intercooler then dont expect much when its hot out. I dont know how handy you are, but if you arent confident that you can be meticulous about the process then id let a professional do it. Ive also heard the the seals seal up to a particular size with time and that can cause leaks if you upgrade the piston when the seal cant handle the size since its already formed so lets hope your seals are still good.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Subscribed...I am sitting here patiently because I want to hear the results you will get from the KMD pump mixed with APR software. Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this one!!!!

[Todd/AWE]

AWE ($399): receives your fuel pump, installs their upgrade, mails it back to you. You are still relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of the upgrade


This is incorrect.

Our pump is a 100% DIY install. We send you lab certified parts and you install it in your own pump.

And we were the first and possibly still the only DIY pump company with a comprehensive install video, specialty install tools included, and we keep the proven factory retainer design to minimize follower wear:

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/video_AWE_FSI_HPFP.cfm

[ataylor]

This is incorrect.

Our pump is a 100% DIY install. We send you lab certified parts and you install it in your own pump.

And we were the first and possibly still the only DIY pump company with a comprehensive install video, specialty install tools included, and we keep the proven factory retainer design to minimize follower wear:

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/video_AWE_FSI_HPFP.cfm

Will update to reflect - thx [up]

also - added links to each MFR's product page for the FSI fuel pump upgrade

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Don't forget to put some info about the autotech pump in this thread if you want to cover all your bases!

[ataylor]

Don't forget to put some info about the autotech pump in this thread if you want to cover all your bases!

will do.. ill do some research on it during lunch today. also - if anyone has it installed and comes by this thread -- fill us in.

[AudiWxGuy]

Cheaper may work...for a little while..

[ataylor]

Cheaper may work...for a little while..

We should talk about the differences in price, and where these differences come from.

Then determine how much of this price difference (from $250, to $400, to $650 or even $1k with a new pump)is explained by:


cost of goods sold, based on price of materials involved, coating technologies, etc
level of bulk purchasing these MFR's are using to keep their (and our) costs low,
the hours/labor involved in rebuilding our pumps for us (in APR's case)
use/wear/depreciation of testing machines during testing (in APR's case -- I'm sure paying for the testing stand is a partial responsibility of the rebuild program), and finally
the % mark-up and brand equity that tack on the last bit of cost on our end.


Since it seems APR is the only company that does a rigorous testing of the pumps before & after the installs -- there's really no comparison there. If you've got a pump with any REAL miles on it, this should really be your only option.

So let's get into the actual parts themselves? (Links provided above should be a start..?)

[Nobuttsechs4me]

I would love to see a comparison on internals:

APR
Autotech
KMD
AWE

Wish I had the money to buy all pump and do a thorough evaluation of the actual parts that are going into the pump!!!!

[ataylor]

also -- can someone from KMD/AWE/APR/Autotech chime in on this issue:

re: followers (from another thread)

how often do they go bad?
Does KMD-or OEM AUDI are they any diffrent from each other?



KMD makes a cam follower - it's a bit thicker than the OEM one. At first, this sounds like a good solution to the wearing, but I've heard that increasing the thickness of the surface is fundamentally wrong when the actual function of the follower is considered.

can we discuss this too? I was never told what the specific problem was with thickening the follower. thanks!

[Nobuttsechs4me]

you would get more technical answers over on vwvortex in the technical 2.0tfsi section.

I doubt any of the vendors will come into this thread and mention specifics about the parts included for the pump. That is something we would have to do on our own[o_o]

[ataylor]

post updated
-added autotech
-added more links to other mfr's
-re organized to resemble more of a guide, with my 'story' at the bottom

this may not be valuable this year, but wait until more of you cross the 50-60k mark, or 20-30k on your chips ;)

[ataylor]

Mike/Keith @ APR

JUST how aggressive is the HPFP file!? :) Obviously it's tested to work well with your HPFP, but with other MFR's ^ warning customers about using their HPFP with your software, should I really be worried?

[Mike@APR]

Mike/Keith @ APR

JUST how aggressive is the HPFP file!? :) Obviously it's tested to work well with your HPFP, but with other MFR's ^ warning customers about using their HPFP with your software, should I really be worried?

Did I miss something? What other manufacturers are warning customers about their HPFP with our software and what are the reasons behind this warning?

From a fueling standpoint, the software sets the requested fuel pressure, requested air-fuel ratio, and the requested demand for fuel based on how much load (aka boost) you are requesting. It's pretty basic. There's more risk in the fuel pump design/manufacturing than in the settings in the ECU for fuel request.

Please help me understand with detail what these warnings are and maybe I can answer your question more directly. APR being touted as the "most aggressive" is a new one for me so I would like to know what is eactly are customers being warned about.

[Todd/AWE]

(I have to admit that sort of a disclaimer is a new one on me, too. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it given how the high pressure system is also mechanically limited by a relief valve.)

[ataylor]

Sorry, Mike -- I added a quote above to the OP, but here is a link to the original mention of KMD warning their customers (specifically, their HPFP upgrade customers) about running their HPFP with APR tuning:

http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42753&page=3

scroll down to Phil @ BSH's post

If you could read some of the concerns there (about APR's 130bar tuning) and let us know if this is something that will require APR tuned cars to only safely run the APR built HPFP, that would be great. I'd hate to throw this thing on my car and have it blow up because of the software (that I love). And I think we'd all understand if you told us "look, we tune our software to run with our products".. I'd just like to know that before I put the KMD pump in! If it's the case.. I'll sell it and save some more for the APR rebuild.

[bblume]

^^^I've always thought it was the other way around....Not the file you should be worried about but your pump (or in this case replaced pump internals) and how it would handle the requested pressure.

[ataylor]

^ that is what I'm worried about.

I'm worried about installing the KMD pump internals, getting the APR HPFP file installed, and my HPFP failing and doing god-knows-what kind of damage to my engine, because the APR HPFP file was meant for the APR HPFP only.

I suppose I can't expect APR to support KMD's build quality -- but perhaps they can clear up what the risks, if any -- are.

[Arin@APR]

I would love to see a comparison on internals:

Here are photos of the APR pump.

Rebuild Parts (includes every part seen here):
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/fuel_pump_parts.jpg

Description
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/apr_fsi_pump.jpg

Brand New Pump (includes everything in the rebuild and a brand new pump):
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/fsi_pump.jpg

[bblume]

^^^Hence my decision with my HPFP

[ataylor]

Here are photos of the APR pump.

Thanks, Arin -- and thanks again for your help when my car was chewing through my follower and cam and I was fighting with the dealer [up]. Like I said above, going to APR with my pump rebuild was the plan the whole time. I bought this KMD kit yesterday because of the great deal, and because I have a new pump to work with. If I learn that my HPFP is bound to explode once fitted w. the KMD internals on APR software, I'll sell it and revert to my original plan.

Next, Could you answer one more question for us? In the effort of making this thread a resource for everyone searching HPFP upgrade-related topics:

When upgrading your HPFP -- it's best to have an extra follower on hand in case you find yours worn. Should customers have an OEM follower on hand, or one of the aftermarket thicker followers, to help defend against the pressure/flow of the upgraded hpfp? If the thicker ones are a bad idea, why is that?

TIA [race]

[dougyfresh]

Autospeed Performance also has a high pressure fuel pump and is almost done testing their low pressure fuel pump upgrade.

[ataylor]

Autospeed Performance also has a high pressure fuel pump and is almost done testing their low pressure fuel pump upgrade.

Any info I can link to about their HPFP?

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

and.. thanks for reminding me that I need to get BACK to work on the DoWerk site ;)

[dougyfresh]

Any info I can link to about their HPFP?

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

and.. thanks for reminding me that I need to get BACK to work on the DoWerk site ;)

I do not have any links. You're best to contact Mark@ASP for information.

[Todd/AWE]

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

Actually, it appears that we were the first to market with a low side fueling solution. It is part of our GT kit for the B7 A4.

BTW, I am not sure how some of the other big turbo kits are making claimed power without a low side solution...

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Actually, it appears that we were the first to market with a low side fueling solution. It is part of our GT kit for the B7 A4.

BTW, I am not sure how some of the other big turbo kits are making claimed power without a low side solution...

Todd: Can you show a picture of your low side fueling solution?

[ataylor]

Interesting.. without getting too far off topic, are there plans to offer the low side product for people building their own kits, in the future?

edit: here's the R&D page for the AWE GT kit for B7's, no mention of the low side solution.. you should definitely add something!
http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/info/content_window.cfm?content=79

back on topic: Autospeed has been contacted and if they give me any info on their HPFP product, I'll add it to our round-up!

[Arin@APR]

When upgrading your HPFP -- it's best to have an extra follower on hand in case you find yours worn. Should customers have an OEM follower on hand, or one of the aftermarket thicker followers, to help defend against the pressure/flow of the upgraded hpfp? If the thicker ones are a bad idea, why is that?

It would be nice to have another OEM follower on hand but it's not necessary. Just take a look at your follower before installing the pump. If you noticed rapid wear, order a new one and replace it. With proper oil changes (5k), an oil high in zinc, no fuel in your oil, and a healthy B cam, I don't feel you'll have many issues. But it doesn't hurt to take a look at it during your oil changes or around 10k. Just remember, if you rub off oil from the surface of the follower, make sure you coat it with molly grease prior to reinstalling it in the engine.

I would never suggest any of the current aftermarket followers.

[ataylor]

Thanks!

If anyone has any input as to why the aggressive hpfp file software tuning would lead to another MFR's pump kit failing, please chime in.

I read that for my software (APR) the load on an upgraded HPFP is actually lower because the capacity of the upgraded HPFP to flow.. is higher so software doesn't have to beat on the pump as much in order to make it perform. So I thought I would be ok, now I just want to be sure before I install the KMD upgrade while running APR. Can someone confirm the above ^? I send a question to KMD so if they respond about this I'll obviously post it [up]

[F16HTON]

Contact Eurocode Tuning...David has a few cars 2.0T FSI that are running Schricks, Ferrea Valvetrain, with both a high pressure and low pressure pump upgrade.

Motors are spinning beyond 8,500 with no issues so far...

FWIW I have been in a Eurocode/APR Stage III+ setup running 9,500 RPMs and making well over 380WHP on low boost (low to mid 20s) [:)] The acceleration is soooooo smooth, yet sooooo deceiving, nearly as fast (not as powerful) as a 675WHP twin GT S4.

Eurocode measures acceleration on a 2 mile stretch of road, datalogged, under real world load, resistance and airflow.

[Quattro]

great thread, I started one ages ago, maybe we can merge info from one thread to another.

I did a lot of research, maybe it will be good for someone.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250112

[Arin@APR]

If anyone has any input as to why the aggressive hpfp file software tuning would lead to another MFR's pump kit failing, please chime in.

This was simply 'made up' information by KMD.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

I dug up some info that Arin had posted on the vortex a while back...before he was with APR!!

link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3343720

Its GREAT reading and very informative. You can watch all the vendors have a pissing competition[=(]

[ataylor]

great thread, I started one ages ago, maybe we can merge info from one thread to another.

I did a lot of research, maybe it will be good for someone.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250112

that link is at the top of my thread :)



This was simply 'made up' information by KMD.

Great! Proceeding with install.. [drive]

ninja edit: finally 2 green rep bars! hahaha

[Arin@APR]

I dug up some info that Arin had posted on the vortex a while back...before he was with APR!!

link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3343720

Its GREAT reading and very informative. You can watch all the vendors have a pissing competition[=(]

:) Yup. I went into it looking for the best. Autotech sent me a PM saying their's would be only around $300. APR said theirs would be around $1000. That's a huge difference! I needed to know why the prices were the way they were. So I did my homework and ended up with APR. Naturally everyone said APR was trying to make rumors to scare people away from the other options yet this is the first thread posted about a competitors pump. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3510787 (Bingo!)

Also if you dig around I had another post showing my results of logging after the pump was installed. Unfortunately my web host crashed and I lost all over the old linked logs. What's funny though is after I posted up that information, and information I found on Hitachi fuel pump patent's, I started getting hate mail from vwvortex members in Arkansas. Don't you just love the internet? [wrench]

[Nobuttsechs4me]

ataylor...get that pump in and post up some information. Hurry up!!!

[ataylor]

its actually not going in until tomorrow (thurs) after work, and then I'll go for the reflash saturday

[Todd/AWE]

Todd: Can you show a picture of your low side fueling solution?

It's the black module in our kit picture:

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/b7_gt2871r/AWE_20T_fueling_800.jpg


For the record:

1) No tune for the stock turbo should ever need the low pressure side upgraded. If someone wants to sell you an upgraded low pressure side solution for the stock turbo, they are selling snake oil.

2) The low pressure side is handicapped in the electronics. The stock low pressure pump is sufficient for upwards of 400 crank hp. If someone is selling you just an uprated low pressure pump without supporting electronics (not software), they have not truly solved the problem. Further, they are asking you to hack into your wiring and in tank pump plumbing. Our solution is completely plug and play.

3) We had issues sustaining over 370 crank hp reliably without a low pressure pump solution. Air fuel ratios would lean out and throttle closure would happen randomly, no matter what we did with GIAC and the ECU software. A low pressure solution is *required* for reliable big turbo power on these cars. Any BT kit without it is suspect in our opinion.

[ataylor]

Why are all these BT builds around the net stuck at the LP Fueling step? Are they not able to source the kind of hardware you've used?

Thanks for all the info, Todd. This thread is shaping up to be a great resource for anyone searching for fueling info at the HPFP or low pressure side.

[Todd/AWE]

Why are all these BT builds around the net stuck at the LP Fueling step? Are they not able to source the kind of hardware you've used?

Thanks for all the info, Todd. This thread is shaping up to be a great resource for anyone searching for fueling info at the HPFP or low pressure side.

This is not an easy solution and is one of the main reasons for the initial delay in releasing our kit. Most likely reason for the lack of other success out there has to do with the more "conventional" approaches people are taking to solve this problem. Slapping in a high flow pump works on other cars, but it is not the ideal solution to fixing the fuel delivery issue on this car.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Todd: are those rs4 injectors?

That kit looks complete and really well done.

[dougyfresh]

This is not an easy solution and is one of the main reasons for the initial delay in releasing our kit. Most likely reason for the lack of other success out there has to do with the more "conventional" approaches people are taking to solve this problem. Slapping in a high flow pump works on other cars, but it is not the ideal solution to fixing the fuel delivery issue on this car.

Because that pump is not in continuous operation like the B5s and B6s. You have to completely remap the duty cycles on the LP side similar to how you would with your N75 to control boost.

[Todd/AWE]

Todd: are those rs4 injectors?

That kit looks complete and really well done.

No, they are proprietary injectors made to our flow spec.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Anyone know the requested fuel flow rates for each of these software tunes:

Unitronic
Revo
APR
GIAC


Todd: Will the AWE kit meet the requested needs of each software tune?

[Todd/AWE]

Todd: Will the AWE kit meet the requested needs of each software tune?

Not sure I understand what you are asking.

The picture I posted above is simply the fueling portion of our GT turbo kit that runs proprietary G.I.A.C. software. It is not some stand alone fueling kit made to work with someone elses software.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Not sure I understand what you are asking.

The picture I posted above is simply the fueling portion of our GT turbo kit that runs proprietary G.I.A.C. software. It is not some stand alone fueling kit made to work with someone elses software.


Yeah I understand that part however, I guess my question is that fuel pump upgrades were developed to help increase rail pressure correct? Was the AWE product designed to support the GIAC software only or will it support other software needs like an APR or Unitronic tunes?

[ataylor]

Yeah I understand that part however, I guess my question is that fuel pump upgrades were developed to help increase rail pressure correct? Was the AWE product designed to support the GIAC software only or will it support other software needs like an APR or Unitronic tunes?

This is basically what I was wondering about running the KMD pump internals with the APR software.

Is mixing & matching the hardware/software OK? Or can a tune be "too much" for a given set of internals.

..goes back to the rumor that APR's software was so aggressive that KMD's internals may fail under that kind of load. I believe we've dismissed that notion..?

[Nobuttsechs4me]

This is basically what I was wondering about running the KMD pump internals with the APR software.

Is mixing & matching the hardware/software OK? Or can a tune be "too much" for a given set of internals.

..goes back to the rumor that APR's software was so aggressive that KMD's internals may fail under that kind of load. I believe we've dismissed that notion..?


Exactly!!! We just need to do some testing on our own. I am going to buy the AWE kit and run it in conjunction with the APR software and do some logging and testing. I will also keep an eye on the cam and follower for a good 10,000 miles. I will keep you posted!!!!

[Tom/APR]

It's the black module in our kit picture:

For the record:

1) No tune for the stock turbo should ever need the low pressure side upgraded. If someone wants to sell you an upgraded low pressure side solution for the stock turbo, they are selling snake oil.

2) The low pressure side is handicapped in the electronics. The stock low pressure pump is sufficient for upwards of 400 crank hp. If someone is selling you just an uprated low pressure pump without supporting electronics (not software), they have not truly solved the problem. Further, they are asking you to hack into your wiring and in tank pump plumbing. Our solution is completely plug and play.

3) We had issues sustaining over 370 crank hp reliably without a low pressure pump solution. Air fuel ratios would lean out and throttle closure would happen randomly, no matter what we did with GIAC and the ECU software. A low pressure solution is *required* for reliable big turbo power on these cars. Any BT kit without it is suspect in our opinion.

Really? This is the EXACT problem I was running into last week while calibrating a 2007 A4 with our Stage III turbo kit. At higher RPM's, the fuel pressure on the high pressure side would start to dip from the requested pressure. Consequently, the injector on-time would begin to go up to compensate for the lower pressure. This would ultimately cause the car to close the throttle as the injector on-times would get to dangerous levels. This was most evident when cruising at say, 75 or 80mph, and then jumping to 3rd gear at WOT.

The solution lay not in the high pressure side, but in getting enough fuel from the gas tank to the high pressure pump. So, all I had to do was recalibrate the way the ECU controls and runs the low pressure fuel pump. The stock low pressure pump controller is just a pulse-width modulator (PWM), and all parameters of how it is driven are adjustable from the factory ECU. Making the low pressure pump work "harder" is just a matter of increasing the duty cycle of the low pressure pump when the situation demands it...

I agree with you that 400 crank is probably the limit of the stock low pressure pump, but you just need to control it correctly... It does get a workout with our Stage III kit, but we feel that it is safe. In the factory engine management, there are preset limits from Audi that prevent the pump and/or the controller from being "overdriven", and we have not changed or exceeded those limits. I also found that the calibration changes to the PWM for the 2006 A4 are not the same as the 2007 in this respect.

[DioTrix]

somebody have any results on mile with HPFP and w\out ? or dyno result?

[LimiTed]

so if i want an APR pump, but cant have any down time with the car, can i order a new one and send mine back? or is there a core exchange program?

[Todd/AWE]

The solution lay not in the high pressure side, but in getting enough fuel from the gas tank to the high pressure pump. So, all I had to do was recalibrate the way the ECU controls and runs the low pressure fuel pump. The stock low pressure pump controller is just a pulse-width modulator (PWM), and all parameters of how it is driven are adjustable from the factory ECU. Making the low pressure pump work "harder" is just a matter of increasing the duty cycle of the low pressure pump when the situation demands it...

Well, you are almost correct. Yes, of course the duty cycle to the low pressure pump can be controlled by altering the main ECU output.

You guys my be running maximum duty cycle, but that does not "unlock" the full potential of the low pressure pump. Maximum duty cycle signal sent to the stock low pressure controller still was not sufficient even at our detuned power level of 377hp. Further electronic work was required, and it was hardware in nature.

You guys may be maxing out the low pressure pump programming, but you are leaving a ton of power on the table by limiting yourself to software in this case. A little creative work with a Fluke meter should reveal the answer to you.

[ataylor]

^ (cue: x-files music)

I need to find a dyno in western mass/CT... after the hpfp goes in tonight and I get reflashed saturday, I'm going to want to know what this pig makes at the wheels.

I'm guessing it will finally feel like a "sport" sedan!

edit: I guess the rest of the exhaust should be next?

[Todd/AWE]

^ (cue: x-files music)

Heh, no science fiction here. Just good old fashioned detective and diagnostic work.

Thanks for starting this thread, by the way.

[ataylor]

No prob -- I figure that once the majority of B7's and late model GTI's are either out of warranty..and start modding more heavily, or find their followers and HPFP's destroyed as they cross over the 60-70k mark, you, APR, and KMD (etc..) will see the HPFP rebuild kits flying off the shelves!

Hopefully this thread will help people decide what they need -- and now it's packed with some low pressure fueling info, too.

[dougyfresh]

^ (cue: x-files music)

I need to find a dyno in western mass/CT... after the hpfp goes in tonight and I get reflashed saturday, I'm going to want to know what this pig makes at the wheels.


there is an awd mustang dyno here in east hartford; DSM shop. I have their business card at home.

EPL also has an awd mustang dyno down in stratford.

not sure about up in mass.

[ataylor]

there is an awd mustang dyno here in east hartford; DSM shop. I have their business card at home.

EPL also has an awd mustang dyno down in stratford.

not sure about up in mass.

nice thanks, i'll look them up and see if I can sneak in on saturday after the flash

edit: is it the Victor Research place?
http://www.victorresearch.com/

[dougyfresh]

nice thanks, i'll look them up and see if I can sneak in on saturday after the flash

edit: is it the Victor Research place?
http://www.victorresearch.com/

yes.

I buy my race gas from them.

[ataylor]

oh my god.. they have race gas too? Looks like I'll be taking a 100oct run as well.. finally get to try out that program!

[delslo323]

No prob -- I figure that once the majority of B7's and late model GTI's are either out of warranty..and start modding more heavily, or find their followers and HPFP's destroyed as they cross over the 60-70k mark, you, APR, and KMD (etc..) will see the HPFP rebuild kits flying off the shelves!

Hopefully this thread will help people decide what they need -- and now it's packed with some low pressure fueling info, too.

Ha! I'm at 57k miles on my 2005.5 B7 and my fuel pump went out. Audi told me its pumping too much fuel? I should be replacing the fuel pump and fuel filter is what they told me.

They replaced my fuel pressure sensor 2 weeks ago (not under warranty) because that went out too.[headbang][headbang][headbang]

They replaced my turbo 2 months ago (under warranty) because that went bad [headbang][headbang][headbang]

Thought I'd share -

[ataylor]

We may be able to help..

what did they mean by pumping too much fuel - were they suggesting you were chipped?

What do you mean by "went out?" have you removed it from the car and inspected it?

[delslo323]

We may be able to help..

what did they mean by pumping too much fuel - were they suggesting you were chipped?

What do you mean by "went out?" have you removed it from the car and inspected it?

No, I don't think so. I've never been chipped, ran the REVO trial over the weekend but that's all.

I mean the dealer is telling me that the Fuel Pump (part# 8E0919051CQ) is pumping too much fuel and it is throwing the error code. So they would need to replace my fuel pump and fuel filter...

[ataylor]

Usually they replace the fuel pressure sensor first.. to see if it's the sensor that's going bad or the fuel pump itself. So I guess that's why they tried that 2 weeks ago. They did the same thing with me when I got fuel cut. Are you getting fuel cut or anything?

Hope you're not paying the dealership to do this work? Buy a pump from one of the aftermarket companies and put it in yourself, it's not difficult!

Todd/Mike/Arin, what is this business about "pumping too much" ?

[delslo323]

I am buying the parts from Audi then taking it to a local shop - Rennart.

Thought about buying the KMD or other upgraded fuel pumps but I don't think I'm ready to go stage II+ Revo. I mean for a fuel pump replacement, I would have to buy a downpipe, get an exhaust, plus do the straight-through test pipe and then do the stage II flash then get an intake or maybe just an Air filter...its what I want to do eventually but I just can't allocate the funds as of now.

[ataylor]

How much is an HPFP from the dealer?

If you delete the cat for a straight pipe, and then upgrade your HPFP (instead of spending money on an OEM one, and then on an upgraded one later).. you should be able to run a stage II program.

If REVO literally requires you to run a full exhaust before the stage II file, then I'm even more glad I went with APR.

[delslo323]

Its:
$326 for the OEM pump so not so bad.

To run the REVO Stage II, I think I am required to have the downpipe and a straight test pipe...but I think because the straight test pipe is a different diameter than the stock exhaust, its better to get the aftermarket ones...

I guess I could find someone to custom wield a test pipe to fit around the stock exhaust...but now we're in a different subject...

I missed when I had a Honda...so much easier

[dougyfresh]

oh my god.. they have race gas too? Looks like I'll be taking a 100oct run as well.. finally get to try out that program!

Yes. I get Sunoco 5gallon containers from them. Usually have some in stock but can also get some within an hour's wait at the max.

[Tom/APR]

Well, you are almost correct. Yes, of course the duty cycle to the low pressure pump can be controlled by altering the main ECU output.

You guys my be running maximum duty cycle, but that does not "unlock" the full potential of the low pressure pump. Maximum duty cycle signal sent to the stock low pressure controller still was not sufficient even at our detuned power level of 377hp. Further electronic work was required, and it was hardware in nature.

You guys may be maxing out the low pressure pump programming, but you are leaving a ton of power on the table by limiting yourself to software in this case. A little creative work with a Fluke meter should reveal the answer to you.

Well, first of all, we are not maxing out the pump, but we do work it fairly hard. Secondly, after making the software changes to the pump duty cycle, fueling is no longer an issue and is not the limiting factor in the equation. At that point you need to worry about things like EGT's and running as much timing as safely possible to keep them in check.

I really don't know where you are going with this PWM solution, as for us there have not been any electrical limitations with it in any of the high-horsepower engine builds we have done...

[ataylor]

ok, so as of tonight..

(Pump w. OEM internals, disassembled)
http://www.atdesigner.com/audi/hpfp-disassembled.jpg

HPFP: OEM w. 5k on it
internals: KMD pump rebuild kit
software: APR 93 w. TP/Exhaust file, but haven't loaded the HPFP file yet.. (saturday..)

Here's my cam follower after 5k miles
http://www.atdesigner.com/audi/follower-wear_5kMiles.jpg

initial impressions: no real power improvement noticed from swapping the internals yet. I assume loading the stage 2+ file will change all of that..

That (HPFP reflash) is happening Saturday morning, and I may be able to get some dyno time that day too.

I haven't really beaten on the car tonight, either. Some of you may think it's not necessary, but after narrowly avoiding the 3k bill when my first hpfp/follower failed, I'm not trying to let luck catch up to me.

So I'm giving this set up a break in period. If something bad is going to happen from my install, or for any other reason.. I'd prefer it happen under light load. It's about 70 miles to get the software, so after I drive there and BACK (200miles between now and then on the pump, 70 or so miles on the new internals w. the aggressive reflash) I'll start getting into it.

I was just thinking about how much I've spent on this car in only the first SIX MONTHS of owning it, and now I understand what you people were all warning me about when I first signed up [az]

[Nobuttsechs4me]

^^^^Nice work. Follower looks pretty good at first glance. fuel pump file should really help. Cant wait to hear your results. [race]

[Todd/AWE]

I think low pressure side discussions are best continued in this other thread:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307715

[ataylor]

Can someone confirm that I should NOT feel any difference in power after upgrading my HPFP internals -- that the upgrade only ALLOWS ROOM for the more aggressive tune? Thanks!

[Glassnpowder98]

^^ Confirmed... You have to upgrade your tune (stage 2+). Stage 2+ requests more fuel and presumably air to increase power, which will be felt using the butt dyno. However if you were already experiencing fuel cut, the fuel cut issue should be solved and therefore you'd feel the difference.

[Todd/AWE]

Can someone confirm that I should NOT feel any difference in power after upgrading my HPFP internals -- that the upgrade only ALLOWS ROOM for the more aggressive tune? Thanks!

Technically that is correct, but it depends how "aggressive" your software tune is to begin with. We have seen pumps running low and throttle closure from tunes that were overworking the stock HPFP. In this case, an upgraded pump will help.

Otherwise, like with G.I.A.C., you'll need a specific software tune to take advantage of the increased headroom.

[ataylor]

Thanks guys --

I will say this:
Once I started running the 93 octane file in my software, my old HPFP started to go (surge.. surge.. and if you stayed on the throttle: fuel cut).

That story has been beaten to death already, and I got a new HPFP, follower, and cam.

The NEW HPFP (OEM) stopped cutting fuel, but I could feel it struggling to keep up (through slight vibration and sputtering) over the last month or so. I would stay on the throttle, and it would either continue or go away -- but would never cut fuel. I think a few more months of this would have led to increased wear and eventually -- fuel cut again.

When I put the KMD internals in, the HPFP feels smooth.. no more sputtering. But I swear I almost feel like the car is a bit slower? Is this just in my head?!

[smartyin]

Contact Eurocode Tuning...David has a few cars 2.0T FSI that are running Schricks, Ferrea Valvetrain, with both a high pressure and low pressure pump upgrade.

Motors are spinning beyond 8,500 with no issues so far...

FWIW I have been in a Eurocode/APR Stage III+ setup running 9,500 RPMs and making well over 380WHP on low boost (low to mid 20s) [:)] The acceleration is soooooo smooth, yet sooooo deceiving, nearly as fast (not as powerful) as a 675WHP twin GT S4.

Eurocode measures acceleration on a 2 mile stretch of road, datalogged, under real world load, resistance and airflow.


any detail information to share? wht turbo are they runing, and they are A4 or gti? i am searching solution for the Low pressure fuel pump. and do they upgrade their pistons?[wrench]

[ataylor]

Got the HPFP Flash, and I feel a bit of a difference, but it's not a "whoa" type of change.

Running now:

APR 93 w. TP/Exhaust, HPFP file(s)
VMR TP, stock exhaust
Stock airbox
Forge DV
KMD hpfp internals


I'd explain the change this way ..



an addition of about 1.5psi overall,

now 21psi peak, and I can push 19-20 at-will

the car jumps immediately to high boost when WOT from a low rpm roll
holds it more steadily through 5.5-6k rpm, down to about 15psi at 6krpm before dropping to 13, 12 around red line.



Today it's raining and very muggy out.. so I'll be pushing the car harder later on, but I thought I would share the "modest" gain I'm feeling so far.

[ataylor]

So I'm stage 2+ now, I guess? But without exhaust or carbino. I'm going to let my airbox breathe next, see what that's all about. Then I'll give the car exhaust and then decide what to do with it. I have a feeling I won't be satisfied with anything that doesn't involve a larger turbo

[fordyoz]

sorry to bring back an old thread, but any update on the Autospeed hpfp?

[viziers]

None that I have seen/heard...



EDIT: Did you mean Autotech and not Autospeed??? As I dont think they ever had one in the works....



vizi

[fordyoz]

None that I have seen/heard...



EDIT: Did you mean Autotech and not Autospeed??? As I dont think they ever had one in the works....



vizi

Autospeed Performance also has a high pressure fuel pump and is almost done testing their low pressure fuel pump upgrade.
autospeed performance

[turbo944s2]

does anyone know the maximum pressure the hi pressure fuel pump can produce before it fails? I understand that there is a valve that prevents it from ever reaching this pressure but Id like to know what the maximum allowable pressure is.

[mec]

I believe John said they have tested the HPFPupgrade pumps to 170bar

[turbo944s2]

Cool. Im still doing some investigation on other forums. I saw the Cobalt tuning company zzp is running 2700 psi and made 600 hp on there car. That info I sent you the other day looks like they are using a Flex fuel updated injector that allegedly flows more than the standard cobalt injector. If I find out anymore info I will let you know. Maybe I can find a volunteer that is willing to try them out. I may even help finance the injectors and the harness.

[mec]

Cool. Im still doing some investigation on other forums. I saw the Cobalt tuning company zzp is running 2700 psi and made 600 hp on there car. That info I sent you the other day looks like they are using a Flex fuel updated injector that allegedly flows more than the standard cobalt injector. If I find out anymore info I will let you know. Maybe I can find a volunteer that is willing to try them out. I may even help finance the injectors and the harness.

I took a look at those injectors. They look more like the b8 injectors which have a different body shape. You may find that they don't fit in the injector bores of an fsi

[Arin@APR]

The cobalt pump is totally different. It's a bosch pump. The nearest Hitachi equivalent being the generation 3 pumps, where as your Hitachi pump in the A4 B7 is a Generation 1 pump. Internally the pump has a 200 bar pressure release valve. It's essentially designed to see much higher pressures - they even sell it without the internal pressure release valve for even higher pressure capabilities in motorsport applications.

We've tested our own pump for long periods in high quantities in the ~160 bar area. In europe there are a few race teams running it near 200 bar (190 if I recall correct).

Keep in mind if you have high fuel demands (ie, making a lot of power), you'll likely never achieve pressures near 200 bar or so.

On the injectors, they are Bosch HDEV 5.x injectors. The A4 B7 uses Bosch HDEV 1.x injectors.

[aluthman]

I wonder what cam follower life is at 160-170 bar...

[turbo944s2]

The cobalt pump is totally different. It's a bosch pump. The nearest Hitachi equivalent being the generation 3 pumps, where as your Hitachi pump in the A4 B7 is a Generation 1 pump. Internally the pump has a 200 bar pressure release valve. It's essentially designed to see much higher pressures - they even sell it without the internal pressure release valve for even higher pressure capabilities in motorsport applications.

We've tested our own pump for long periods in high quantities in the ~160 bar area. In europe there are a few race teams running it near 200 bar (190 if I recall correct).

Keep in mind if you have high fuel demands (ie, making a lot of power), you'll likely never achieve pressures near 200 bar or so.

On the injectors, they are Bosch HDEV 5.x injectors. The A4 B7 uses Bosch HDEV 1.x injectors.

Thanks for the input guys.

[jsandor91]

I wonder what cam follower life is at 160-170 bar...

enough to drive to the audi dealership to buy a new one....

[Arin@APR]

I wonder what cam follower life is at 160-170 bar...

Unfortunately increasing pressure isn't always the answer. 160-170 bar is not much of a difference than say, 150 bar. At lower pressures, 110-130, you'll see a big difference in injection ontimes. But once you go beyond this point, the reduction per increased bar starts to flatten off.

[aluthman]

I was just thinking out loud about increased wear to an already short cam follower life. I'm not saying it's the answer for flowing more fuel. Sadly though, until someone comes out with an aftermarket FSI injector *hint*hint*, it's our only option unless you want to add secondary fueling or switch to port injection. S3 injectors will only take you so far, and RS4 injectors are a tuning headache.

[Arin@APR]

What kind of WHP are you looking to achieve on pump fuel?

Here's what we're seeing so far and mind you, this isn't exactly a massive turbo.

Setup:

Golf R - FWD Mode
APR Stage 3 - T25 GTX 2867R .63 AR Turbo
APR Rail pressure relieve valve
APR HPFP
Stock Injectors
Stock LPFP
Stock Head/Cams/Internals
93 Octane

410 FWHP - Dynapack - Summer - SAEJ1349 Correction

Same setup as above with our upgraded LPFP we were able to get a little more midrange torque and horsepower and by peak, we were over 420 WHP, maxing out the turbo.

On 100 we're able to hit roughly 480/480 WHP/WFT-LBS of torque.

[aluthman]

I'm hoping to hit 400 awhp eventually (obviously not with my current turbo). I'm not sure what the equivalent number would be for a haldex system in fwd mode. I would rather not have to have meth, but I don't think I'll be able to avoid it.

[Arin@APR]

I'm hoping to hit 400 awhp eventually (obviously not with my current turbo). I'm not sure what the equivalent number would be for a haldex system in fwd mode. I would rather not have to have meth, but I don't think I'll be able to avoid it.

Yeah, comparing numbers will be hard.

Do you know what type of air flow numbers you're looking to hit? What ignition advance by redline? What turbo?

[aluthman]

GTX2867 or 3071 most likely. From what I've read I'll need north of 350 g/s and I'm not really sure what I'll be looking at for timing. I'm currently flowing 263 g/s and I have about 6 degrees of timing advance at redline. I was hoping to be able to run more timing, but thanks to the JE piston debacle, I'm still close to the factory compression ratio.

[jsandor91]

Yeah, comparing numbers will be hard.

Do you know what type of air flow numbers you're looking to hit? What ignition advance by redline? What turbo?

If it is in fwd mode is there any additional DT loss over a gti ?

We should just talk chp when comparing different transmissions


GTX2867 or 3071 most likely. From what I've read I'll need north of 350 g/s and I'm not really sure what I'll be looking at for timing. I'm currently flowing 263 g/s and I have about 6 degrees of timing advance at redline. I was hoping to be able to run more timing, but thanks to the JE piston debacle, I'm still close to the factory compression ratio.

Id like to jump on a dyno after I get meth to see where I'm at right now I'm hitting around 280g/s with a crappy intake that has a kink in it with no heatshield.


I wish we had more maf and dyno reading to see how closely they are correlated. I think epy said 1 g/s per whp. Until you get in the mid 300's

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[thezoneQuattro]

The cobalt pump is totally different. It's a bosch pump. The nearest Hitachi equivalent being the generation 3 pumps, where as your Hitachi pump in the A4 B7 is a Generation 1 pump. Internally the pump has a 200 bar pressure release valve. It's essentially designed to see much higher pressures - they even sell it without the internal pressure release valve for even higher pressure capabilities in motorsport applications.

We've tested our own pump for long periods in high quantities in the ~160 bar area. In europe there are a few race teams running it near 200 bar (190 if I recall correct).

Keep in mind if you have high fuel demands (ie, making a lot of power), you'll likely never achieve pressures near 200 bar or so.

On the injectors, they are Bosch HDEV 5.x injectors. The A4 B7 uses Bosch HDEV 1.x injectors.

Am I missing something here? You say the stock HPFP is good for up to 200bar and the apr one has been tested to 160? Why may I ask do we need to upgrade the hpfp then?

[aluthman]

Am I missing something here? You say the stock HPFP is good for up to 200bar and the apr one has been tested to 160? Why may I ask do we need to upgrade the hpfp then?

That's not what he said at all. There is an internal relief that prevents you from going over 200 bar. APR has tested their pump at 160, but others have run it much higher. Gather reason you upgrade your hpfp is so you can flow more fuel at a given pressure to avoid fuel cuts when running high power setups.

[Arin@APR]

GTX2867 or 3071 most likely. From what I've read I'll need north of 350 g/s and I'm not really sure what I'll be looking at for timing. I'm currently flowing 263 g/s and I have about 6 degrees of timing advance at redline. I was hoping to be able to run more timing, but thanks to the JE piston debacle, I'm still close to the factory compression ratio.

We've tried stock compression all the way down to 8.5:1 and didn't really see a difference.

[Arin@APR]

Am I missing something here? You say the stock HPFP is good for up to 200bar and the apr one has been tested to 160? Why may I ask do we need to upgrade the hpfp then?

There are two parts to this.

Firstly the 200 bar comments were about the Bosch pumps found on the new chain driven A3's in the USA.

Secondly, when upgrading the pump, you're altering the volume of fuel it can displace during each stroke. The stock fuel pump can easily produce extremely high pressures at lower power levels. However, if you increase airflow with a larger turbo, you'll begin using more fuel. Eventually, you'll run out of fuel, and pressure will drop. By making the pump's internals bigger, you'll deliver more fuel and begin raising pressure again.


Check this out. It's a different pump but I think the description I wrote explains things pretty well. I even have a chart to illustrate flow rate per RPM.

http://www.goapr.com/products/hpfp_25tfsi.html

[Arin@APR]

If it is in fwd mode is there any additional DT loss over a gti ?

I honestly don't know for sure but I would imagine it's slightly more due to additional parts in the system.



We should just talk chp when comparing different transmissions


I agree!



I wish we had more maf and dyno reading to see how closely they are correlated. I think epy said 1 g/s per whp. Until you get in the mid 300's


That will depend greatly upon calibration. More ignition = more power and that will not show up in maf readings. Also, MAF scaling from one tuner to another could be completely different. Sometimes it's a good way to compare, and sometimes it's not unfortunately.

[aluthman]

We've tried stock compression all the way down to 8.5:1 and didn't really see a difference.

Well, that's good to hear. On a side note, is it possible to buy individual parts of your stage 3 kit? I would love to get my hands on one of your manifolds and possibly silicone intake hose, but I don't need a lot of the other stuff like injectors and whatnot. I also have zero interest in running a GT2871.

[Arin@APR]

Unfortunately we do not part out the kits.

I hoped we would upgrade this kit to GTX like our other kits but we haven't had a way to fit it into the busy schedule yet.

[aluthman]

If you ever offer it with the GTX3071 minus injectors and software, let me know :-)

[Arin@APR]

That would require a lot of changes from inlet/outlets/wastegates/ and so on. There isn't a GTX3071R package that bolts right up.

[mec]

If you ever offer it with the GTX3071 minus injectors and software, let me know :-)

why the APR mani? An ATP will do just fine. Althought a Top mount would be ideal, tons more space to work, could route the external wastegate underneath the manifold, The only issue you might run into is fitting a 4" to 3" 90* bend right before the compressor to get your maf on. Or you could do what Drake did and relocate your maf, not sure how sketchy that is.

Water and oil lines are simple, Then buy a piping kit from ebay or silicon intakes, use an angle grinder or a bench saw, and you've got cheap reliable piping.

Although If you like the powerband you have now a gtx3071 might be a bit much, I would maybe look at HTA3076's, they spool more like a 2867 with IIRC flow more than a gtx3071

[aluthman]

I like the idea of having a non-log cast manifold. Also, I won't have to worry about shoddy construction with an APR manifold.

[mec]

I like the idea of having a non-log cast manifold. Also, I won't have to worry about shoddy construction with an APR manifold.

I would say ATP has a very good reputation as well, JR is just letting hte manifold hit his motor mount bracket and it is forcing the Vband to break. Have you considered a top mount tubular?

[aluthman]

I have nothing against ATP. I'll likely end up going with them but I'd rather not have a log manifold. A tubular top mount would be nice if I could get a good one, but I don't want to deal with fitment issues, warped flanges, and cracked welds. That's why I like APR's manifold so much.

[mec]

I have nothing against ATP. I'll likely end up going with them but I'd rather not have a log manifold. A tubular top mount would be nice if I could get a good one, but I don't want to deal with fitment issues, warped flanges, and cracked welds. That's why I like APR's manifold so much.

Iirc apr doesn't make a t3 mani though, just a t25, so you would have to stick to the 28 series or fab some adapter plate. There's RAI's tubular...of course it has it's quirks but it will work after you trim it lol. I don't think tubular does much on a turbo, honestly if I could go back I would save myself $600-700 and get one of those cheap apt manifolds.

[turbo944s2]

Aluthman, did someone scoop up Mightymouces manifold yet? That was a damn good price for it! I doubt that one will crack.

[aluthman]

Not sure. I would buy it in a heartbeat if my mod budget wasn't nonexistent at the moment. It'll be a few months before I'm able to start collecting parts to upgrade.

[baldy]

Last week I had the HPFP fail, which seized the cam follower in the housing (after it broke a piece off), and took out the cam.

So on that note, I'm on the hunt for new internals or a complete HPFP. I did a bunch of research, and there are obviously countless options now: Autotech, HPFP Upgrade, IE, APR, HPA, CP-E, LOBA, and Corksport.

So after a little searching, this link came up: http://www.corksport.com/blog/the-fuel-pump-finale-sort-of/ which pointed out their test of the pumps (except the IE). Their design has a lighter piston, includes a new spring, has the extra seal, and uses the factory button style retainer which helps prevent the side loading issue found on the other non-button retainer pumps (which it looks like this is why my pump failed...wear on the top edge of the piston and the opposing bottom edge).

Has anyone used these internals: http://corksport.com/corksport-mzr-high-flow-fuel-pump-internals.html
or the new IE ones: http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-high-pressure-fuel-pump-hpfp-upgrade-kit-for-2-0t-fsi-engines

On another note, I remember seeing someone on nefmoto post that they change one of the fittings on the HPFP to help out with higher pressure over 130 bar, and since I have the RS4 PRV installed I regularly see 136-138 bar so I thought this might help. Does anyone know which fitting it is?

[aluthman]

Buy a new pump and IE's internal kit. Or just buy their pump. Don't try to put new internals into a busted pump, it'll just end up costing you more money in the long run.

[baldy]

Wasn't going to put it into the old pump. Already have a new one from Audi.

I guess the decision comes down to whether or not the corksport one is better than the IE and other ones. It appears to be made extremely well and none of the Mazda forums reported any failures. I also know a parts manager at a local dealership that has been running it on his MS3 for a while as well and hasn't had any issues.

[aluthman]

Never heard of Corksport. I would hands down trust IE though.

[ataylor]

Wasn't going to put it into the old pump. Already have a new one from Audi.

Is there still no place to buy a new pump for less than ~$1k after all these years?

[vce1232000]

Sum APR dealers will sell for $800.00 new [eek]. No Xchange

[Endmass]

Is there still no place to buy a new pump for less than ~$1k after all these years?


New OEM pump:
http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/fuel-pump-high-pressure-mechanical-hpfp-oem-for-b7-a4-20t-p-2419.html?cPath=21_62_65_255

[baldy]

New OEM pump:
http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/fuel-pump-high-pressure-mechanical-hpfp-oem-for-b7-a4-20t-p-2419.html?cPath=21_62_65_255

Pretty sure he meant upgraded pump. Either way, that's a great price from JHM.

[mec]

Pretty sure john@ HPFP sells pumps for $750. Brand new, upgraded. Fancy shenanigans and all.

[viziers]

I've been running Johns stgII pump now for roughly 25,000+ miles with no issues so far if that helps?



vizi

[aluthman]

I've run a stage 1 HPFPupgrade pump for over 30k miles with no issues.

Edit: Vizi I don't think you can claim longest running build with no issues anymore. I'm roughly 31k miles post build and my biggest issue is burning a little oil due to the larger piston-to-wall clearances required by my JE pistons.

[viziers]

I've run a stage 1 HPFPupgrade pump for over 30k miles with no issues.

Edit: Vizi I don't think you can claim longest running build with no issues anymore. I'm roughly 31k miles post build and my biggest issue is burning a little oil due to the larger piston-to-wall clearances required by my JE pistons.


True that. Good to see another person is running with virtually no issues......



vizi

[vce1232000]

I ran my APR pump for 40k with no problems[:d] until the follower failed[=(]

[mec]

I've got you all beat! 44k on my stage 1 hpfp upgrade pump, never skipped a beat

[viziers]

I've got you all beat! 44k on my stage 1 hpfp upgrade pump, never skipped a beat


And the funny thing is most don't trust his workmanship for some reason. But the ones with the most to lose use his pumps!



vizi

[viziers]

I ran my APR pump for 40k with no problems[:d] until the follower failed[=(]


Yeah, CF's just suck! That's why I change mine every 10k regardless but unfortunately I know it can break 100 miles into its use.




vizi

[Operator]

Black Friday deals coming up...... If you can wait that long.....

[seal66]

My stage 2 HPFP has lasted two Audi's and over 50k miles.... So got all of you beat ha ha ga

[baldy]

Ok, to be fair, my Autotech lasted over 65,000 miles. So maybe I have you all beat, but just can't help to wonder if there is a better option I guess. The main design feature of the HPFP Upgrade, Corksport, LOBA, APR (CP-E) which I think would help with longevity of the cam followers is the button retainer. I never had any fuel leaking through the seal, etc. So on that note, it has been reliable and I'm not complaining. It's just if there is a better option, now would be the time to upgrade.

I guess I'll see what Black Friday brings.

[Audibot]

So...reviving this thread for a question:


My hpfp has a crack across the connector, and I was looking up the part number via ECS. IIRC, my car originally came with Rev K, but I noticed the latest OEM rev is M (06F127025M vs 06F127025K). Does anyone know what the difference is?

GAP tells me this same hpfp is used up to the 2015 TTS (265 hp, 258 lb-ft -- essentially B7 2.0T Stage 1). APR Stage 1 for that car says it requires no hardware, and it's somewhere in the ballpark of >350 hp and 350 lb-ft. Stage 2 also doesn't have any additional hpfp updates. Could the update been to stronger internals?

[Flygman]

Will a upgraded HPFP do any good on a K03 with a turbo-back exhuast?

[BeeSevenKyle]

Will a upgraded HPFP do any good on a K03 with a turbo-back exhuast?Unless your car is tuned, I don't think so. Someone may correct me but I think stock fueling vs upgraded won't make a difference in a stock car.

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk

[Flygman]

Unless your car is tuned, I don't think so. Someone may correct me but I think stock fueling vs upgraded won't make a difference in a stock car.

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk
Yeah that makes sense, but can more power be gained from tuning a K03 with an upgraded HPFP?

[BeeSevenKyle]

Yeah that makes sense, but can more power be gained from tuning a K03 with an upgraded HPFP?Yes, a stage 2+ tune will require a test pipe or HFC, intake, and a fuel pump upgrade

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk

[arankaspar1]

Would an RS4 HPFP be equivalent or better than these upgrades?
I have a K04, S3 injectors, cat-back exhaust, stock HPFP/Cat.
I need a new tune.

[vce1232000]

I need a new tune.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/860668-JHM-tune-credit?highlight=jhm+tune [:)]

[Jayz691]

Would an RS4 HPFP be equivalent or better than these upgrades?
I have a K04, S3 injectors, cat-back exhaust, stock HPFP/Cat.
I need a new tune.Stock hpfp with a k04?? That can't be good, lol.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Audizine Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[AudiB720TS]

Would an RS4 HPFP be equivalent or better than these upgrades?
I have a K04, S3 injectors, cat-back exhaust, stock HPFP/Cat.
I need a new tune.

AFAIK the RS4 has a roller follower. My roller follower is certainty off of an RS4 B7. So I would “guess” the HPFP is incompatible without a bunch of modification.

[arankaspar1]

Stock hpfp with a k04?? That can't be good, lol.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Audizine Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Yeah current bs tune is pulling 20-30 degrees total timing at 45% load. Timing decreases when load goes up. Its requesting only 1600mbar at it's peak. I think I'm going GIAC because it's 91 and easiest of all for smog.

[arankaspar1]

As low as 250mbar requested boost when actual is 1170 and the waste gate isn't opening.