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View Full Version : I am at my whitts end.... ~aims car at cliff~ smoking issue continues



Beemer832
09-30-2008, 09:00 AM
I am so fvkcing fed up of this smoking problem with my car. I have thrown a full year of time at this car and an ungodly amount of money, and all I have to claim is a car that consumes a quart of oil a week and creates enough smoke to clear out a KISS concert.

Here is a brief recap of what was done to the engine:
2mm over bore with the correct hone
custom Diamond pistons
Total seal, chromium plated pistons rings (gaps are correct)
scat rods
calico main and rod bearings
arp main studs
all new seals and gaskets in bottom end
8 new exhaust valves
8 new exhaust valve guides
all new seals and gaskets in head including valve guide seals
NO HEAD WORK DONE besides cutting the valve seats

Engine has about 1700 miles on it now. Smoking has not gotten better nor has it gotten worse.

Compression test puts all 4 cylinders between 166-175 psi. This was done on a cold engine, need to perform on a hot engine still.

Irridium plugs have lots of carbon build up on them now. Brand new plugs.

Engine consumes about a quart of oil every 400-500 miles

BLUE smoke comes out of exhaust after car warms up and idles. Under accelartion and/or WOT no smoke is apparent. When car comes to a stop and then idles again, smoke will start. Car will only smoke when it has idled for 10-20 seconds. Smoke varies from a lot to a little and usually doesnt depend on anything.

I just put in a DIY catch can, similar to what FRED2k4 did using an air compressor filter. this was a temp project i installed to see if it fixed it, it DID NOT.

I checked all PCV lines for buildup and there was none.

I had intake manifold off and monitored valves while car was parked for a few days, there didn't seem to be any apparent oil leaking down the valves.

I have asked numerous local audi club guys, audi techs, audi mechanics, even the jerk who built my engine. No one has a definite answer, but maybe thats because you won't know until the engine comes out.

If you can't tell already I do not want to pull the engine again.

My questions:
What is the possibility that the oil ring is causing blow by? Do these rings need to seat also? Could it not be scraping the oil back down into the pan?

What is the possibility that there is an exhaust valve guide seal that wasn't installed correclty and leaking down? If i take the exhaust manifold off, would I be able to see the oil leaking if the car sits for a few day like this?

What is the possibility the turbo is blown and somehow getting oil back into the combustion chamber? I check intercooler and intake lines and there isn't massive amounts of oil, just enough to make your fingers shiny slightly.


At this point im desperate!!! I have considered blowing the car up numerous times.. lol its kicking my ass!!!!!!!

thanks for reading/looking and i appreciate all and any input.

-josh

pac1085
09-30-2008, 09:21 AM
Have you done a leak down test?

Beemer832
09-30-2008, 09:24 AM
i have not, but I don't know what that would show? doesnt that just test to make sure the rings and valves aren't leaking pressure? it wouldn't show oil seals leaking or the oil ring allowing oil through? or am i completely wrong?

where would you go to get this test done?

-josh

Affinitive
09-30-2008, 12:08 PM
Have you ever replaced the jet suction pump. There's good picture of one in the rich trim thread. Those are very common to causing excessive oil consumption. Not sure about 1qt/500 miles though. Has the actual PCV valve (eventhough the jet suction pump is sort of a PCV valve) been replaced. I'm talking about the valve within the three way breather hose connection under the intake manifold.

Both are pretty cheap and a first step in a process of elimination. If those are OK, then I would say a mechaincal problem.

With the engine idling, is there pressure or vacuum in the crankcase. You can check by taking off the oil cap while idling.

C

Beemer832
09-30-2008, 12:19 PM
yea i took a look at the valve and there isn't that muhc oil in those lines. ive actually removed that vaccum line from the intake manifold and then plugged up the extra hole and the car actually smokes worse doing this.

when you remove the valve cover oil filler cap there is pressure.

thanks dude

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 09:11 AM
going to let the car run and smoke bad this weekend, turn off, cool down, and pull off turbo and exhaut manifold and check for oil on valve stems. if there isn't any oil there, the ONLY thing else it could be is the oil ring... or i guess any of the piston rings.

thanks
josh

njm23
10-01-2008, 09:41 AM
do a leak down test, you may be surprised. You'll find out in which cylinder your loosing pressure, if any, and possibly where it is going..easy to do and takes no time, might as well. besides that idk

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 09:57 AM
ok thanks for the info.

-josh

Don Supreme
10-01-2008, 11:51 AM
I just rebuilt my car and it was doing the samething, we determined the turbo seals are gone. Have you ruled out your turbo?

I mean seriously, it sounds very similar.

#1 On first start up - no smoke, but as car warms up it starts to pour out smoke and burns tons of oil.

For me there was good amount of oil on the inlet and turbine side. If you remove the turbo you should see oil in the downpipe and hopefully no oil in the exhaust manifold....... No oil in the mani would indicate it wasn't coming from the engine.

In this video the car has been running for about 3 minutes. It starts smoking @ this level and then GOES NUTS once it gets to full temp.

Bad Turbo Seal (http://www.wisptech.net/images/misc/3658Idling.wmv)

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 12:30 PM
it is very similar to that smoking at startup but there is oil in the combustion chamber. pulled the plugs and they have lots of buildup. also, the smoking goes away under boost and power... i would imagine it would get worse as oil pressure increases?

i am going to pull the manifold today so we will see what happens. thanks for the info tho.

waht turbo are you running i that setup?
-josh

Don Supreme
10-01-2008, 12:33 PM
also, the smoking goes away under boost and power... i would imagine it would get worse as oil pressure increases?

-josh


Well thats different... I don't think my smoke really goes away under boost.

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 12:38 PM
well it was the closest think ive seen to being my problem so far :)

ill just keep eliminating things until I find the culprit. And then ill have my way with the party that fvcked it up!!! :)

Don Supreme
10-01-2008, 12:44 PM
I found the following post on another forum - sounds like you.... and supports my theory..





My turbo seal was gone. Two seized, and one smoked really bad pouring oil into the dump and exhaust. Smoke at idle, but not under boost, and smoke off boost means the seal is toast and you're done.

My car smoked so bad at idle, on the way to my local shop I had people honking at me because it was so bad. It was a literal smoke screen at idle. Under power it went away though. lol Those were the days.

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 12:48 PM
well to be honest with you, i did have the compressor houseing off of the turbo and tried to seperate the exhaust housing from the core to drill out some of the studs that broke off. This didn't work and I didn't try to ahrd but none the less. How do I know if the seals are bad in a GT series turbo? I wouldn't be opposed to having it checked, although I have two other things to try first that don't cost anything :)

thanks for the info Don. I appreciate the support!! AZ'ers rule!

-josh

Don Supreme
10-01-2008, 01:03 PM
well to be honest with you, i did have the compressor houseing off of the turbo and tried to seperate the exhaust housing from the core to drill out some of the studs that broke off. This didn't work and I didn't try to ahrd but none the less. How do I know if the seals are bad in a GT series turbo? I wouldn't be opposed to having it checked, although I have two other things to try first that don't cost anything :)

thanks for the info Don. I appreciate the support!! AZ'ers rule!

-josh

Well here is some more INFO... The GT series turbos can't really be rebuilt, but you may qualify for a costly CHRA exchange. As I said earlier, the only check I can think off is to pull that turbo off and look into the exhaust mani..

I guess let it run for a little first, no too long so that the car is too hot, but enough so you can see the fresh oil when you take the turbo off.

Beemer832
10-01-2008, 01:14 PM
ok thanks again. i prob would be easier to pick up a used turbo for a few hundred $$$ rather then replace or fix. i dont have the bones to goto the full gt30 kit like i wnat.....


-josh

Beemer832
10-05-2008, 02:49 PM
thanks for all the help guys. i finally figure this shit out!!!!!

i pulled the exhaust mani and turbo off after letting the car idle and smoke bad. i saw exactly waht i hoped to see. globs of burnt oil dripping down the exhaust valve stems. 7 out of the 8 were leaking, and one cylinder leaking extremely bad.

luckily there is very reputable cylinder head shop in town, nolan heads, that is going to get this thing back to OEM standards. also going to look into some aftermarket cams and valve train for future turbo upgrades

thanks for all the info, advice, and support!!

happy audi owner....
josh

317ssayzarc
10-05-2008, 05:38 PM
thanks for all the help guys. i finally figure this shit out!!!!!

i pulled the exhaust mani and turbo off after letting the car idle and smoke bad. i saw exactly waht i hoped to see. globs of burnt oil dripping down the exhaust valve stems. 7 out of the 8 were leaking, and one cylinder leaking extremely bad.

luckily there is very reputable cylinder head shop in town, nolan heads, that is going to get this thing back to OEM standards. also going to look into some aftermarket cams and valve train for future turbo upgrades

thanks for all the info, advice, and support!!

happy audi owner....
josh

Got your text, glad you figured it out... Its good youve backed it away from that cliff now hahaha... You know who to call when you need some parts [;)]

Beemer832
10-05-2008, 07:13 PM
will do thanks bro! I am going to be removing the PCV system completely because im sick of that damn metal tube that runs along the left side of the engine. always in my way!!!! i am in need of a catch-can now if you have any recommendations. if not i will get one from jeggs or racerwholeale/summit racing.

im not expecting to throw some bones at this car until next year. have to get my feet wet back on the track and start looking at turbos/tune/fuel. u know how that shit goes..


-josh

Beemer832
10-21-2008, 06:24 AM
issue is back again.....

cylinder head place found all 8 exhaust guides very loose so the seals didnt have a chance of actually sealing. they replaced all 8 guides along with all 8 seals. head reassembled, bolted back onto the block fired it up. started smoking within a minute......

there are so many nice things I want to say about this engine right now but i just cant seem to find the right words... [down][headbang]

with that being said, the absolute only thing that could still be a problem is the piston and rings. with the head off, there didn't seem to be any blow by on the rings, and all of the pistons were identical is discoloration from the burnt oil. none of them were worse then others.

my thought was possibly a broken middle ring, but that would have had to happen on all 4 cylinders because of the oil shown on all cylinders. then i was thinking maybe the rings never seated? they seem to have decent cold compression and tons of power through for them not to have seated. then, someone else above mentioned the turbo, which makes sense but how does the oil get back into the combustion chamber?

i am getting a schematics/picture of what the pistons look like today to compare them to OEM. I will post later.

-josh

Don Supreme
10-22-2008, 11:23 AM
If you are seeing oil coming out of your head / exhaust manifold then its probably not the turbo. I know my issue was oil coming from the turbo, but it was caused by some other issues...........

MAKE SURE YOUR PCV IS WORKING RIGHT ---- Do not over look it.

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 11:34 AM
cleaned the pistons to a shine while the head was off. Pulled the plugs last night, pistons have a wet oil residue on them now.... its definitly oil coming from the head still or blow by on the rings.

I have removed the PCV system completely. The vent comes off the block, goes into a T fitting. From the T fitting the straight side which use to go back into the TIP now goes to another pipe which vents down below the back of the firewall onto the ground :) (this is temp, already ordered an atmospheric vented catchcan)

the middle of the t fitting goes into the PCV valve which then routes to a vaccum line back into the intake manifold. I have unhooked this vent tube before and plugged the line on the intake manifold and the car still smokes, actually smokes worse this way.

thanks for the input though. i was kinda hoping it was the turbo, i am due for an upgrade...

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 11:59 AM
Damn Josh, your text lead me to believe everything was good...

Don Supreme
10-22-2008, 12:07 PM
If you have bad rings, you should also have a lot of blow by. Whats coming out of that PCV line?

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:09 PM
me too....................................

whatever the case is, i will be tearing my engine apart this winter. I am doing all the work this time, no more bringing it somewhere. I will have the crank balanced with the rods and pistons for a butter smooth idle on 034 track density mounts...head ported and polished with 034 valve springs.

I will most likely be keeping the same pistons, saying there were designed well, mostly because i cant afford a new set, unless the manufacturer wants to refund me... right...

I would like to put a similar style ring set in because of their design to work with high boost engines, but we will see.

i am getting good at this engine removal thing though. i can probably have the entire engine out in 5 hours now.

i will try to keep this shit updated throughout the winter, guess we will see how bored i get.

-josh

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:11 PM
If you have bad rings, you should also have a lot of blow by. Whats coming out of that PCV line?

last time i checked it just had some condensation in the hose. didn really run the car more then 100 miles..

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Josh, send me everything, I have a spare 058 block here...

Don Supreme
10-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Have you done a leak down test?

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:23 PM
i would dude, but i kinda wanna do this. kinda like a reputational thing. this engine has kicked my ass mentally for the past year. its my time to kick its ass. come spring time, i am going to give this car a beating on the track. lol

do you have a spare head? if I can get a spare head, I am going to use it to get ported and polished and then i can just drop it in when the engine comes apart again. what would BobQ charge for that?

-josh

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:24 PM
Have you done a leak down test?

not yet. but i really dont get what this would point to...... its gotta be the rings at this point. there isn't anything else it could be.

the problem is, my dad has a leak down test, but he just moved and hasnt hooked up his air compressor yet (220v)
we are building a 40x60 shop at his new house, but it wont be done until spring time.
i'm not waiting that long......

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 12:25 PM
I have a spare AEB that needs 2 or 3 valves... Ask him what he'd charge, my head was alotta work and came out to like 3k

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:35 PM
god damn..lol i was thinking $300... have you seen the economy lately?

i guess my budget at this point is about 3k over and about 13 months longer then expected.......

what do you want for the spare AEB just curious? I am imagining it needs a valve job with new valves. guides, seals all that good stuff.
-josh

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 12:41 PM
god damn..lol i was thinking $300... have you seen the economy lately?

i guess my budget at this point is about 3k over and about 13 months longer then expected.......

what do you want for the spare AEB just curious? I am imagining it needs a valve job with new valves. guides, seals all that good stuff.
-josh

Car had 60k miles before it ate the #1 rod bearing, to the point it was completely gone and the rod came up to far and nicked at least 2 valves, maybe 3... I want 400 minimum, Ill probably keep it or use it for a customer build

Beemer832
10-22-2008, 12:45 PM
yea i dont blame you. id keep it to. ill find a junker car one of these days and part out and keep the engine. i really want to build a 2.0 stroker engine with a built head. i swear to go ill do all the FvCKING work if i can find a reliable machine shop to bore out the block. lol

-josh

Beemer832
10-26-2008, 07:03 PM
finally got around to doing a compression test. not even going to waste my time with a leak down test after these results.......... engine will be out this weekend to replace the rings and re-hone the block. SHOULD be good to go after this.

dry wet
1 167 220
2 190 210
3 174 192
4 181 202

That jump on cylinder 1 is scary. rather pleased with how much power the car has now with this much compression loss/blow by. cant wait to slap the gt30 on her. she will be singing a new tune fo sho...

thanks for all the help guys!

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-26-2008, 07:17 PM
do werk son! [up]

Beemer832
10-26-2008, 07:21 PM
just shopping 034 for the turbo setup. not sure what im gonna do yet.
-kinda would like to get the APR manifold and run the WG 3071 with the t25 flange, but i hate the placement of the turbo.
-The SPA manifold scares me because I can see that casted manifold cracking too often. -their tublar mani is just ridiculous in price.
-i dont see a tune for th 3071 either, and im not sure about the TAPP tune after you guys had problems with it.

looks like ill be running the apr kit for a little bit longer. hopefully getting some good return money this year and go celebrate!

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-26-2008, 07:34 PM
No mail order tune will be solid for totally worked setups on narrowband 02 cars Josh... Hate to break it to you [:|]

Beemer832
10-26-2008, 07:38 PM
have any recommendations? I will be getting the wideband sensor with the new turbo kit. i just dont have the bones right now to throw down on it.

i have a local tuner shop (imagineauto.com) that could set me up with a custom tune, but they run monotronic (spelling?) and i am nervous, for a lack of a better term, that it wont be reliable enough to daily drive. this is why i love the APR kit, 100% reliable for a DD, just not enough power for me anymore...:)

any suggestions are appreciated. i am going to try and take some time to compare the advantages and disadvantages of the tunes, turbos, manifolds, all that jazz. hopefully i can make a muhc better decision then what i have done to the internals of the engine.

-josh

317ssayzarc
10-26-2008, 07:53 PM
have any recommendations? I will be getting the wideband sensor with the new turbo kit. i just dont have the bones right now to throw down on it.

i have a local tuner shop (imagineauto.com) that could set me up with a custom tune, but they run monotronic (spelling?) and i am nervous, for a lack of a better term, that it wont be reliable enough to daily drive. this is why i love the APR kit, 100% reliable for a DD, just not enough power for me anymore...:)

any suggestions are appreciated. i am going to try and take some time to compare the advantages and disadvantages of the tunes, turbos, manifolds, all that jazz. hopefully i can make a muhc better decision then what i have done to the internals of the engine.

-josh

Oh well a wideband gauge is a given I would hope Josh... [>_>]

I was saying a widewand tune is a whole different animal, and much easier to mail order tune than narrowband (read, drive by cable cars)