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View Full Version : And the Logging Begins: MAFless Ctapp file



JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Well, the time has come. I've fixed my wastegate issue and now i'm reading to do some logs so I can get this car running properly. So far, my issues are the infamous shitty tapp idle and bouncing AFRs at idle, cruising, and under boost. So, to fix these, can someone tell me what blocks I will need to log, how to log them, and any other info....This is my first time logging, so I will need some help analyzing the data. So, if anyone out there has experience, please help a brotha out [up]

Nebone
09-05-2008, 01:03 PM
Come down to North RI or lets meet somewhere possibly Sunday and I'll help you out. I have full VAG too.

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 01:24 PM
Will I be able to make it that far without getting the car properly vag'd? I've really only been driving this thing in like 20 min intervals, for fear that I might BLOW the damn thing.....lemme know what u think

Nebone
09-05-2008, 01:51 PM
Post up some AFR values under different loads so more people chime in. Check for vacuum leaks too.

Don Supreme
09-05-2008, 03:22 PM
Post up some AFR values under different loads so more people chime in. Check for vacuum leaks too.

You have the xd-16 guage, what do your AFRs look like? Unless you have it on the c16 map, I doubt tapp would be running too much timing, so just cruise down and don't boost it.

bassed
09-05-2008, 03:34 PM
Log Blocks 003, 011, 031. Bouncing afr on the WB reads what?

Sigma 3
09-05-2008, 03:56 PM
Is poor Idle and iratic afr common on a tap tune???

I need to get a tune soon and am just trying to get an idea of what im in for.

sorry for the unscheduled thread jack. Carry on

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Here are a view brief wideband logs that i've made. I did one at idle, cruising, 2nd gear WOT pull, and idle log after that short run (because the idle sometimes changes)......I put the data into Microsoft Excel graphs so they'll be easier to read. Enjoy

Idle 1
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IdleAFRGraph.jpg

Cruising
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/CruisingGraph1.jpg

2ndGearWOT Pull....looks BAD and won't be doing that again...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/2ndGearWOTAFR1.jpg

Cool Down Idle
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/IdleGraph1.jpg

PLEASE advise

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 04:04 PM
Log Blocks 003, 011, 031. Bouncing afr on the WB reads what?

I'll do that right away....but should I log them at idle or under any load?

t1demont1
09-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Wow those are some harsh lean spots. do you have any vaccum leaks? Whats your fuel pressure at?

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 04:15 PM
I need to make a real pressure tester

But I checked and retightened intake, exhaust, and vacuum leaks....but I'll do it again

and my fuel pressure is right at 43psi (3bar), which is what Tapp told me the file is programmed for

317ssayzarc
09-05-2008, 04:17 PM
i wouldnt drive it....

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 04:25 PM
i wouldnt drive it....

Actually, nebone22 told me to get in touch with you and ask for suggestions.....any idea of how I could fix it?

Poopie
09-05-2008, 05:09 PM
Sounds like a boost leak. The only source for the engine to calculate load is off the map sensor. Are you running a BOV or just a DV non recirculate?

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 05:10 PM
I'm running a recirculated DV.....I'll go round the car and tighten every clamp I see

Poopie
09-05-2008, 05:19 PM
you should be running a BOV with a mafless file. Plug your inlet and just let your DV vent to atmosphere and see what happens. In all reality I don't think it matters, but try it.

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 05:27 PM
Really???? Would that cause my AFRs to be so out of whack???

quattro16
09-05-2008, 06:10 PM
Yup, mafless tune here. And running a bov. You have to. Also make sure during a wot pull you dont let up on the pedal! Just put it to the floor.

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 06:28 PM
Okay....well, looks like I've got tomorrow's project......do I HAVE to run a DV, or can I just run a completely closed system? I don't have a BOV laying aaround unfortunately

bassed
09-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Okay....well, looks like I've got tomorrow's project......do I HAVE to run a DV, or can I just run a completely closed system? I don't have a BOV laying aaround unfortunately

No closed system, do as Poopie recommended.

t1demont1
09-05-2008, 07:02 PM
Vent the dv, the tune isnt for recirculating air. I dont think that will effect WOT however it may. Have you checked your plugs, what are they gapped to? You may want to make sure that your DV is staying shut at wot and idle.

JumboBlack1.8
09-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Just plugged the DV and it is not vented to the atmosphere....but i'll be picking up a BOV shortly.....Started it up, and the idle is a little bit better. Its more stable on start up...BUT, my AFRs are still "hunting"...bouncing between maybe 12 and 16

Also, my plugs are brand new Bkr 7e's gapped at .028, IIRC

317ssayzarc
09-05-2008, 09:51 PM
if afrs the problem you have either a vac leak, exhaust leak before the 02, or a bad 02... thats where id start looking

Poopie
09-05-2008, 10:30 PM
vent the dv and reset the ecu so it can adapt for the new set up.

Poopie
09-05-2008, 10:31 PM
i think you should go one step colder on the plugs

t1demont1
09-05-2008, 10:55 PM
i think you should go one step colder on the plugs

What plugs were you running on your BAT?

bassed
09-06-2008, 06:54 AM
What plugs were you running on your BAT?

f6dtc

t1demont1
09-06-2008, 06:59 AM
hmm i need to pick up a set of these bad boys

bassed
09-06-2008, 07:33 AM
hmm i need to pick up a set of these bad boys

Autozone can order them for you usually.

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 08:18 AM
My luck just sucks....or i'm just incompetent...

but was looking for exhaust leaks on the exhaust manifold, and I snapped one of the manifold-to-head bolts right in half......awesome....so now I've gotta wait til Monday, when the parts department at Audi reopens.....f'cking great

Poopie
09-06-2008, 09:04 AM
ouch...did you get the stud out? Check some vw dealerships. some open till 1....

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 09:19 AM
^^Thank for the tip, Poopie.....the local VW dealership's parts department is open til 4pm! I'll swing by there and pick up a new stud, nuts, washers and a gasket

Poopie
09-06-2008, 09:47 AM
nice. do work son

post of pics of your set up. maybe we can spot something wrong.

t1demont1
09-06-2008, 01:33 PM
fo sho, post them pics. Whats your intake setup? You should only need a filter on the turbo, thats if you even want that lol

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 01:53 PM
I'll post some pics later.....but be warned....i've got a custom manifold and downpipe that I picked up from a guy on fortitude....its not the prettiest, but it works, and flows properly....pics will be up later.....right now, i'm putting everything back together.

ALSO, i think I found my leak....I made the mistake of plumbing one of my catch-can lines too close to the turbo....Well, the oil collected in one spot, and burned a hole through the hose.....So, as of now, i believe my faulty AFRs were a result of a significant vacuum leak in the PCV (?) system.....I've still gotta swing by Autozone and get some new hoses before I reinstall/relocate that to a cooler side

pipe7284
09-06-2008, 01:55 PM
i`m still waiting for pics!!!!

Euro-Tuner
09-06-2008, 02:00 PM
the mafless tune requiring a BOV is only a Tapp thing correct, b/c Im running MRC tuning and he likes DV's not sure what the difference is but thats news to me with the Tapp requirements. Are you running a recuirculated oil catch can or are you venting it to the atmosphere?

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Pics will have to wait again......i just F'CKING busted ANOTHER F'CKING stud!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my piece of shit torque wrench is BROKEN, and refuses to let me know when i'm OVER TORQUING! ......i cant explain how pissed I am now.

and i'm running a recirculating catch can, so I do have a turbo inlet pipe on the turbo. but the only things going to it are vacuum and the catch can

t1demont1
09-06-2008, 02:32 PM
Well, the pcv doenst require vaccum. My pcv is a stainless steel hose that runs from the block and hangs by my exhaust. What vaccum lines are you running to your tip?

Euro-Tuner
09-06-2008, 02:37 PM
Well, the pcv doenst require vaccum. My pcv is a stainless steel hose that runs from the block and hangs by my exhaust. What vaccum lines are you running to your tip?

technically it does need a vacuum consider it is a "positive crankcase ventilation" meaning there is a positive draw on the crankcase coming from the TIP even when the crankcase itself is not producing enough pressue to push air out.

and if you just venting it next to youe exhaust you might want to throw a filter on the so it acts as a filtered system as oppsed to a closed circuit system, its healthier and will keep more of the oil vapors in the can, if Im understanding your setup correctly its pointless for you to even run a can, if you have one.

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 02:39 PM
I forget whats its called, but it is part of the intake system that runs into the stock TIP.....can't take pics right now, cuz its raining like balls

and i'm so pissed at this car i'm really thinking about selling it when I get it together....this thing has been PISSING me off more and more....its been MONTHS since i've really driven it

t1demont1
09-06-2008, 02:46 PM
No can here... Lots of BAT guys dont have a reciculated catch can. I know its better to have a possitive pressure pcv system.Ive read the catch can discussions over and over. Its ideal to have possitive pressure on it, but im not trying to ruin my lightning maf(******s are expensive), and I would route it into my exhaust but I plan on running a muffler soon and the back pressure is bad for the pcv system.

But lets not turn this into a catch can discussion. Im just saying that a hole in his pcv system wont fuck up the tune... Bassed is mafless and hes dumping like me. I was just curious what vaccum lines he has going to the tip

Ray Khan
09-06-2008, 03:09 PM
Jumbo, I have a tq wrench you an borrow if you need one, but you need to let me know tonight as I'm leaving early tomorrow morning for a couple of days.

As for a leak in the PCV system, I'm in the middle of fixing one in mine. I'm curious if it will make any difference in my idle, or how the car runs. My cars usually idles ok. I think my biggest problem is the crap APR/Delphi injectors that I run.

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 03:32 PM
Well, my idle was mostly okay, but mmy AFRs were completely screwed....I looked around all other places around the engine, and found no leaks, except for one that hose connected to the catch can.

As far as the vacuum goes, it runs from what looks almost like a check valve, and continues within a hard plastic L-shaped tube that passes over the turbo and runs into the TIP.....it was part of my stock intake system, and I have read that it provides intake vacuum....I originally kept it because my plan was to run an MAF, but since removing that, i'm not entirely sure if its necessary

And Ray Khan.....my dad's got tons of torque wrenches and other tools at his shop, so thanks for the kindness, but i'll just borrow something from him

Am I the only one who's gotta SO frustrated at their car to the point where selling it seems like the best option??? I"m almost there

Euro-Tuner
09-06-2008, 03:40 PM
dont sell it...

t1demont1
09-06-2008, 09:24 PM
Have you talked to Tapp yet? maybe he could help you out a bit.

JumboBlack1.8
09-06-2008, 09:26 PM
Well, once I get all the hardware issues worked out, i'm gonna give him a call.....i've been exchanging emails with him about my past issues, and he's been very helpful....hopefully we can get this thing sorted out so I can enjoy driving again

Nebone
09-06-2008, 09:58 PM
Keep the car so you can beat on it to return the favor of it beating on you.

Pete@IE
09-07-2008, 01:12 AM
Something is up with those logs- the wb02 onboard won't even read to 6:1 a/f, and your engine certainly wouldn't run that rich anyways. Well, not on gasoline hahaha.

FWIW, really big lean "spikes" like that are often the result of a misfire. The o2 sensor is measuring the PERCENT oxygen left in the exhaust gas. If you don't fire at all, you blow a cylinder full of straight air down the exhaust (with unburnt fuel mixed in), and the o2 sensor gets a shot of oxygen. It reads wicked lean, and you freak out.

What do the plugs look and smell like after a pull? Is the ceramic white like santa clause's butt or a nice tan color, or is it black and sooty... Or worse, black, sooty, wet and stinking of fuel.

BKR7E's will work well on almost any pump gas setup. The only thing I don't like about them is that they don't last as well as the IK24's that I like to use (which you basically never have to dink with). .028" gap is too much for a strong big turbo car though, I would gap them down to .024" for pump gas and see how that goes.

JumboBlack1.8
09-08-2008, 04:00 PM
***Update***

Well, after a few days of waiting for the right parts and tools, I've got the car idling again, and this time, with MUCH better improvements. I put in all new studs, washers, and nuts on the head....rerouted my catch can to the cold side, regapped my plugs to .026, and I tightened up all my intake, vacuum, and exhaust leaks....now i'm getting consistent AFRs

Before resetting the ECU, i was getting between 14.2 and 14.9/15.0....but after resetting on a cold start, i'm getting ~12.0, but I'm assuming those numbers will get better when it warms up.....I haven't taken it out for a drive yet, but I think I"m approaching the time when I need to do some logs to make sure its running properly....

So, can someone out there let me know which blocks I need to log?



ALSO, forgot to mention.....someone mentioned that I need to make sure that my DV stays closed at Idle....unfortunately, it is not closed....I've got a Hyperboost adjustable DV, but even on its stiffest setting, it's still open only a fraction...i realize this will causee a severe boost leak, so I plan on staying out of boost.....Anyone got a BOV for sale???

Don Supreme
09-08-2008, 04:20 PM
***Update***

Well, after a few days of waiting for the right parts and tools, I've got the car idling again, and this time, with MUCH better improvements. I put in all new studs, washers, and nuts on the head....rerouted my catch can to the cold side, regapped my plugs to .026, and I tightened up all my intake, vacuum, and exhaust leaks....now i'm getting consistent AFRs

Before resetting the ECU, i was getting between 14.2 and 14.9/15.0....but after resetting on a cold start, i'm getting ~12.0, but I'm assuming those numbers will get better when it warms up.....I haven't taken it out for a drive yet, but I think I"m approaching the time when I need to do some logs to make sure its running properly....

So, can someone out there let me know which blocks I need to log?



ALSO, forgot to mention.....someone mentioned that I need to make sure that my DV stays closed at Idle....unfortunately, it is not closed....I've got a Hyperboost adjustable DV, but even on its stiffest setting, it's still open only a fraction...i realize this will causee a severe boost leak, so I plan on staying out of boost.....Anyone got a BOV for sale???

dear oh dear.......... a leaking BPV/DV @ idle won't cause a boost leak, as there is no vaccum to open the DP while you are in boost (opposite of vac)....

The problem is a leaking DP may result in a serious F@#@ed up idle and cruising afr (while in Vac).

You need to fix that.

P.S. I run a Forge 004 BOV, which does a pretty decent job of staying closed @ idle... as it requires (stay with me now) Boost pressure in the charge pipe && vac on signal line for it to open.

JumboBlack1.8
09-08-2008, 04:38 PM
dear oh dear.......... a leaking BPV/DV @ idle won't cause a boost leak, as there is no vaccum to open the DP while you are in boost (opposite of vac)....

The problem is a leaking DP may result in a serious F@#@ed up idle and cruising afr (while in Vac).

You need to fix that.

P.S. I run a Forge 004 BOV, which does a pretty decent job of staying closed @ idle... as it requires (stay with me now) Boost pressure in the charge pipe && vac on signal line for it to open.

Come on....give me a break...I made a mistake...Sorry to be a dick, but the sarcasm isn't appreciated, since I've gone thru enough headaches with this car, and I am learning through trial and error.....the way u learn is by fucking up and asking stupid questions....so I appreciate your explanation

But anyway, I'm not getting a weird idle and my AFRs are fine, for a change....so once my ECU readapts (and the engine stops randomly dying), then I'll do logs and get this thing running the way it should...

Any help on which blocks to logs and what to look for would be much appreciated [up]

JumboBlack1.8
09-08-2008, 04:40 PM
OH, and I'm also looking into getting a Forge 004.....should be an easy install on my setup

Don Supreme
09-08-2008, 04:46 PM
Well I am mostly interested in seeing your AFRs in the log (WOT).

From vag-
003, 020, + one other which depends on what you feel like checking (i.e. Injector duty cycle, IATs, Boost, it all depends on what you are trying to diagnose, verify, or check)

JumboBlack1.8
09-08-2008, 05:14 PM
Well.....I'll get some more AFR logs later this week...I just wanted to take some notes to plan out what I have to do when I get the car on the road again

I just ordered a Forge 004 BOV and it should be here within a day or so (hopefully wednesday)....I"m afraid to drive it before then, because I'm afraid of fucking anything up even more...lol

Nebone
09-08-2008, 05:25 PM
003 will give you RPMs, load (throttle angle in % 0-100), timing and MAF readings but all of yours will be zero since you have no MAF. Block 20 is important and checks timing retard on individual cylinders. Your wideband will take care of determining AFR and how fueling works so try to log them all together.

Also log blocks 011, 031 like bassed mentioned.

The more blocks you try to go the slower refresh rate you will get with VAG and thus less data.

Best results come from a 3rd gear run (3000 rpm till redline is fine)

JumboBlack1.8
09-09-2008, 07:53 AM
Some people mentioned wanting to see pics of my setup, so here goes.....its not pretty, but it works and is finally 100% free of leaks:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03008.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03009.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03015.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03014.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03016.jpg

Now heres a picture of the "vacuum" source that I have running to the TIP....its that hard black line running to a rubber hose that attaches the the TIP
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03011.jpg
heres where it attaches to the pipe
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03012.jpg
I originally decided to run this to the TIP instead of deleting it because my original plan was to run an MAF, and my research had shown that intake
vacuum was necessary.....but since going MAF-less, i'm not entirely sure its needed, and i'm not sure if it will "hurt" my system

Catch can, mounted under the coolant resevoir:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03013.jpg
Intake -- used the hard pipe on an ATP TIP and a 3" 90degree bend
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/DSC03017.jpg

lots of zip ties and JB weld.....ghetto? yess....but effective...also a yes
The zip ties will be replaced with clamps shortly

1fstavant
09-09-2008, 02:43 PM
bk7res are fine....with fd6 or whatever i was breaking up bad on tapps tune...

Nebone
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
I see the problem. Your dipstick handle is broken.[rolleyes]

Setup looks good and well put together. Watch out for puddles.

JumboBlack1.8
09-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Got the BOV today.....so the car is finally all in one piece, and, as far as I know, I've got everything needed for my file to function.....However, after resetting the ECU, I'm getting another set of problems that are really starting to piss me off

After starting the car up, I'm getting a VERY rich AFR.....the wideband reads around 10 on a cold startup, then slowly rises to around 11.5 to 12 (sometimes it goes up to 13) when it warms up....what should I look for?

Then, after believing I could take it out for a drive, I closed the hood, and all of a sudden, my RPMS drop, the afrs go back down to 9, and my idle jumps.....after about 30 seconds, the car dies. When I put the key back in the ignition, it refuses to turn over. And the EPC and CEL lights that normally illuminate on start up do not come on.....So, I reset the ECU, and the lights come back on....but, of course, the cycle of issues conitnues, and I'm forced to reset the ECU once again to get the ECU to turn on

So, my two issues aare VERY rich mixture at startup and idle, and a ECU that doesn't always want to turn on......someone pleaase help, I'm getting ready to just put a match in the fuel tank and watch the car just disappear.......i can't handle not being able to drive this thing

JumboBlack1.8
09-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Something is up with those logs- the wb02 onboard won't even read to 6:1 a/f, and your engine certainly wouldn't run that rich anyways. Well, not on gasoline hahaha.

FWIW, really big lean "spikes" like that are often the result of a misfire. The o2 sensor is measuring the PERCENT oxygen left in the exhaust gas. If you don't fire at all, you blow a cylinder full of straight air down the exhaust (with unburnt fuel mixed in), and the o2 sensor gets a shot of oxygen. It reads wicked lean, and you freak out.

What do the plugs look and smell like after a pull? Is the ceramic white like santa clause's butt or a nice tan color, or is it black and sooty... Or worse, black, sooty, wet and stinking of fuel.

BKR7E's will work well on almost any pump gas setup. The only thing I don't like about them is that they don't last as well as the IK24's that I like to use (which you basically never have to dink with). .028" gap is too much for a strong big turbo car though, I would gap them down to .024" for pump gas and see how that goes.

Also regapped the plugs and they are black.....not sooty, wet, or stinking of fuel....but just black....what should I do?....please help me AZ, I'm startin to lose faith, ha

Don Supreme
09-11-2008, 02:38 PM
If the file is written for no maf and you have NO LEAKS and your coolant temp sensor is 100% in working order then I can only think that the tune is just not working for you car.

P.S. There is a map in the ecu that slow leans out the fuel mixture are your coolant temp rises, hence the change, but I am not sure why when it gets to full operating temp it just falls on its ass.

Have you logged your coolant temp?

t1demont1
09-11-2008, 02:48 PM
Have you checked your engine codes, or looked for any stored codes... I know sometimes the tunes dont fully write onto the ecu, and you get a programming incomplete error.

JumboBlack1.8
09-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Yea, this really makes no sense to me at all....it was working last week before I reset the ECU, and now it is just completely shitting itself.....the car struggles to Idle properly, and when it does (i.e. spot on AFRs and a solid idle), as soon as I hit the gas pedal, the EPC and CEL lights flash, the idle drops to like 600rpms, and the AFRs go very rich.

What block is coolant temps? Isn't that part of the 001 or 003 groups?

ANd I'm not getting any codes whatsoever....nothing new, and nothing stored.....but i AM failing two readiness tests. EVAP and Cat Converters....not sure why

Poopie
09-11-2008, 02:56 PM
i got the programming incomplete error when my intake wasn't really set up well cause of the shitty ATP intake. I fixed that by using sealant on all the connections. I was code free till the day my car got totaled.

JumboBlack1.8
09-11-2008, 03:02 PM
Well, right now, the ECU isn't turning on (no CEL or EPC light at when key is in "ON" position).....again, it comes back on after I wait about an hour or if I reseet the ECU again.....dunno what to do

And the intake is completely sealed, and I dunno if it really would matter as much because the ECU isn't getting any readings directly from the intake, since I'm MAF-less

Poopie
09-11-2008, 04:23 PM
thats true. Sounds like your ecu is fried.

JumboBlack1.8
09-11-2008, 04:33 PM
Great....just sent tapp an email.....i really hope i don't have to send this thing back to him....he took almost two months to send it back last time....

Poopie
09-11-2008, 09:20 PM
at least your cleaning ladies didn't through your ecu away like mine did.

Nebone
09-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Those readiness items will be set as Failed each time you reset the ECU. You need to drive for a while for them to be set to Passed.

So AFR 10 is TOO rich even for a cold start? (Cars always run rich on cold starts)

Good Luck [up]

JumboBlack1.8
09-12-2008, 06:47 AM
at least your cleaning ladies didn't through your ecu away like mine did.

Wow.....talk about tough luck....u gettin them to pay you for it??


Those readiness items will be set as Failed each time you reset the ECU. You need to drive for a while for them to be set to Passed.

So AFR 10 is TOO rich even for a cold start? (Cars always run rich on cold starts)

Good Luck [up]

Well, thats good to know, because I'm up for inspection at the end of the month and it'd be GREAT not to have to pay a fine, haha

Last night, i went out to give the car another shot, and thankfully, it idled fine and didn't die on me, for once. I started it and let it idle for about 10 mins and shut it off to let it cool down. I did this about 3 times, thinking that doing cold restart cycles would help the ECU adapt....and it seemed to work. I drove it around the block, and only got the EPC and CEL light once....which is a good sign (The more I drive, the less that occurs).....So I'm gonna give it a shot today, and hopefully it'll drive like a normal car [up]

Avant1.8BT
09-12-2008, 07:15 AM
if your working on you car this weekened, i could stop by and you could try my ecu out to see how your car runs, its the unitronics 440 file.

JumboBlack1.8
09-12-2008, 10:06 AM
if your working on you car this weekened, i could stop by and you could try my ecu out to see how your car runs, its the unitronics 440 file.

Thanks, but that might confuse the car even more, especially since the injectors don't match....but thanks for the offer!

Luckily, the ECU is working today. I took it out for a 15 minute drive today and had spot-on AFRs cruising around. The one time I did boost it, i got the EPC CEL thing again, but that'll go away over time. I'm gonna drive it for quite a while today to see if the ECU does eventually adapt

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 07:03 AM
**New Graph**

Things still aren't looking too good, but they are better than the last graphs. I'm still getting some spikes between 15.5 and about 14.0.....I'm guessing this isn't normal, especially since the idle does still fluctuate a bit....I drove the car for about 50 miles to get the ECU to adapt, but I'm still getting a funky AFR/idle

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/StableIdleGraph.jpg

t1demont1
09-15-2008, 07:47 AM
atleast nothings hitting below 14.0 and above 15.5. How many miles on it now? It kinds seems like you need to just keep driving it to smooth it out. I thought you need to put a good 100-200 miles on these ecus to get them to adjust fully. Another thing you could do is a boost leak test if you havent, may show a small leak throwing afrs off.

t1demont1
09-15-2008, 07:49 AM
oh yeah i dont know if anyone said anything, but i belive your wideband should be further down stream than right after the turbo so you dont burn it out or anything.

Don Supreme
09-15-2008, 08:36 AM
18 inches IIRC.

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 08:41 AM
Yup....its more than 18inches away I believe, its not directly after the turbo.....I placed it about an inch behind the second O2

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 09:48 AM
The car just died on me again......its currently sitting about 5 blocks from my house cooling down....The ECU is not turning on, and the engine keeps dying.....it hadn't done this for about 4 days, and now, all of a sudden, the problems return.....I've had enough...

Nebone
09-15-2008, 10:18 AM
I carry a spare coil pack in my trunk. Maybe you need to carry a spare ECU...

Sorry to hear that man because thats a definite dissatisfaction. That ECU needs to go back over the border.

maxspeed
09-15-2008, 10:20 AM
im starting to doubt this being entirely an ecu issue.

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 10:27 AM
im starting to doubt this being entirely an ecu issue.

What else could it be?.....I've narrowed it down....its the ecu, why else would it not turn on? And the EPC/CEL problem is typically a sign of a dying ECU

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 10:30 AM
I carry a spare coil pack in my trunk. Maybe you need to carry a spare ECU...

Sorry to hear that man because thats a definite dissatisfaction. That ECU needs to go back over the border.

yea it does.....i'm thinkin of goin Uni and then selling it...i can't deal with this shit anymore....I mean, why have a car that I put so much time and money in to if I can't drive it

Don Supreme
09-15-2008, 10:30 AM
I swore I just posted something about checking the ECU CHIP is making full contact with all the pins.. blah don't feel like typing it again.

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Its a flashed file, not a chip

maxspeed
09-15-2008, 10:33 AM
you plug the ecu in all the way? maybe slice, or crossed a wire somewher?

Don Supreme
09-15-2008, 10:34 AM
u sure?

JumboBlack1.8
09-15-2008, 11:18 AM
Turns out the chip WAS loose (made the mistake of thinking it was flashed)......but, unfortunately, that was not the solution......I just got the car back home (pushed it w/ my bad leg) and started it in my driveway.....it idled for about 5 minutes, then the EPC and CEL flashed again, and it died....again

when it was idling, I ecu appeared to be searching for the right idle bouncing between 14.0 and 15.0 for the correct AFRs.....but just before it died, it began to spike between 12.8 and over 16.0 (maybe the ECU cut the engine because of the spikes?) and the rpms began to dip by about 400.

Now, once again, I'm getting no contact with the ECU w/ the key in the "ON" position

Don Supreme
09-15-2008, 11:24 AM
If when you turn the key to on position and you don't get the CEL and epc light then the ecu is not booting....

I would take the chip out again, CAREFULLY - I MEAN CAREFULLY straighten the pins and make sure it securely locks in place.


---------------
I knew it would be chipped...

Nebone
09-15-2008, 11:42 AM
If the chip was loose it its socket, it could by shorted by now.

JumboBlack1.8
09-17-2008, 09:32 AM
Drove the car last night for about 30 miles, and was getting decent AFRs at idle and cruising....didn't boost much.....wanted to ecu to adapt

But today, i go out and start it, and my AFRs are ALL over the place, bouncing between 12.5 and 17....and my idle was dipping. So, I'd like to run some logs to see whats going on. What're the blocks for fuel trims? o2 sensor adaption? Injector duty cycle, etc? ANd what values should I be looking for?

It seems like one of my o2 sensors might have gone bad, or it could be a fueling issues. I no longer have any leaks, so I'm assuming its a different hardware issue

As of now, the ECU is working fine

Don Supreme
09-17-2008, 10:09 AM
compare your oem wideband readings to your innovative wideband readings.

JumboBlack1.8
09-17-2008, 03:38 PM
I'm getting -20+ % in block 031 for o2 sensor adaption, while my innovative wideband (at the time) read around 8.0, which is beyond dangerously rich.....I'm going through the car (AGAIN) to look for more leaks (as directed by ross-tech.com).....but the o2 sensors appeared to be working....

Pete@IE
09-17-2008, 04:55 PM
once again, I think you have something wrong with your wb02. My 1.8t won't even run at 8.0:1 a/f, and it misfires and belches black smoke in the 9's. Make sure the innovate is setup for the correct fuel, otherwise the scaling will be all wrong.

JumboBlack1.8
09-17-2008, 09:54 PM
once again, I think you have something wrong with your wb02. My 1.8t won't even run at 8.0:1 a/f, and it misfires and belches black smoke in the 9's. Make sure the innovate is setup for the correct fuel, otherwise the scaling will be all wrong.

I'll go out and get a replacement O2 sensor tomorrow and see if that fixes things

JumboBlack1.8
09-18-2008, 04:12 PM
Changed the o2 sensors today....still running rich

reset my wideband to make sure the scaling is correct.....still rich

Checked to make sure my innovative and ecu widebands are both accurate....still rich

And after logging fuel trims in block 032, the Idle adaption and Part Throttle adaption both read 0.0% at idle when cold and when warm......and according to the helpful ross-tech.com "something is wrong"....

Not sure what to do

Don Supreme
09-18-2008, 04:16 PM
Did you drive it?

JumboBlack1.8
09-18-2008, 04:17 PM
Nope....not when its that rich, no way

JumboBlack1.8
09-18-2008, 04:18 PM
And when I say rich, i mean rich as HELL....my wideband is reading 7.9 at startup and only levels out to about 8.5

B5Burn
09-22-2008, 10:30 AM
Any updates? Sorry I have nothing to add, I know it's tough... I have had a pretty steeeeeeeeeeeeeeep learning curve over the past 2 summers and I know soooo much about my ride now. I know that's no consolation for you, you just want to drive the damn thing!!

Hope it's panning out!
B.

JumboBlack1.8
09-22-2008, 10:54 AM
Any updates? Sorry I have nothing to add, I know it's tough... I have had a pretty steeeeeeeeeeeeeeep learning curve over the past 2 summers and I know soooo much about my ride now. I know that's no consolation for you, you just want to drive the damn thing!!

Hope it's panning out!
B.

Thanks man. I appreciate knowing that I'm not the only one that cares about this, haha [>_<]. Its been an extremely frustrating process that has taken far longer than I ever anticipated (due in part to my own mistakes), but I have gained a much greater knowledge of the car, which is always great.

As far as updates go, the car is gonna be sitting in my backyard for the next couple of weeks. I'm going into surgery on Thursday for my knee, and I won't be able to drive for a while. However, I have exchanged several emails with Tapp, and he offered to give me a reflash on a new ECU, so I sent him a new ECU this morning. He thinks all my issues were from the tune itself, so he's basically going to write me a new one (hopefully one that works this time). So, when I get it back (hopefully by next week), I'll see if I can have either my dad or a friend get some data for you guys to help me analyze.

I'm hoping surgery goes well so I can heal up fast and finish up all my projects before winter rolls around (can't believe summer is over ALREADY)....

Don Supreme
09-22-2008, 11:44 AM
And when I say rich, i mean rich as HELL....my wideband is reading 7.9 at startup and only levels out to about 8.5

You do know the wideband is going to say 7.9 on first start up since the sensor is cold and hasn't warmed up?

JumboBlack1.8
09-22-2008, 11:47 AM
You do know the wideband is going to say 7.9 on first start up since the sensor is cold and hasn't warmed up?

I think I mentioned before that it happens regardless of engine temperature, and the onboard wideband gives similar values as well.....Before I startup, i always allow time for my sensor to warm up. Tho the engine is rich at startup, 7.9 is far too rich....When the car was running properly, I was getting 10 to 11 at startup, then it quickly leaned out within only minutes......I definitely had a serious issue, I didn't screw up this time.....

Don Supreme
09-22-2008, 12:36 PM
.....

Engine temp is not relevant. I am talking about the temp of the sensor. The oem wideband should read 7 ish, as it is probably the same sensor as your innovative.

The sensor needs to warm up before it can read the o2 properly...

Therefore, 7.9 is a false reading and is not the actual AFR. The engine probably wouldn't even combust if the afr was really 7.9!!!

JumboBlack1.8
09-22-2008, 01:00 PM
.....

Engine temp is not relevant. I am talking about the temp of the sensor. The oem wideband should read 7 ish, as it is probably the same sensor as your innovative.

The sensor needs to warm up before it can read the o2 properly...

Therefore, 7.9 is a false reading and is not the actual AFR. The engine probably wouldn't even combust if the afr was really 7.9!!!

Dude, I know what ur saying....completely.....but the AFRs really were 7.9 and I'm positive it was not a false reading. I have consulted with Tapp, and he told me to send the ECU in immediately, because it was likely that the chip had been fried and the ECU wasnt correcting fuel trims.....When reading 7.9 to 9.5, the car was essentially spewing out unburnt fuel (i could tell by the smell) and the spark plugs AND o2's were black. Not to mention the cloud of black smoke from the tips......it really was that rich...

why is it so hard to believe what I"m saying?

Don Supreme
09-22-2008, 01:52 PM
Dude, I know what ur saying....completely.....but the AFRs really were 7.9 and I'm positive it was not a false reading. I have consulted with Tapp, and he told me to send the ECU in immediately, because it was likely that the chip had been fried and the ECU wasnt correcting fuel trims.....When reading 7.9 to 9.5, the car was essentially spewing out unburnt fuel (i could tell by the smell) and the spark plugs AND o2's were black. Not to mention the cloud of black smoke from the tips......it really was that rich...

why is it so hard to believe what I"m saying?

I have ridden in perfectly running cars and upon first start up the AFR reads 7.xxx............ Its a false reading. I am pretty sure your car was running rich, but it was not anywhere near 7.xxx.

JumboBlack1.8
10-07-2008, 03:50 PM
Got the ECU back today, but haven't gotten a chance to start it. I'll post some updates in the AM......I'm hoping it won't still be dangerously rich

B5Burn
10-07-2008, 09:06 PM
Tease!

JumboBlack1.8
10-09-2008, 09:44 AM
Another tease....

I drove the car today, and so far so good, as far as the tune itself goes. I got spot-on AFRs when cruising, but idle is still a little rich. I haven't driven it under boost yet because I"m somewhat nervous to do so, haha

The only problem with the whole project that I"m having now is the inaccurate readings from my wideband.....I made the idiotic mistake of mounting the sensor too close to the turbo (its about 13" from the turbo housing), so now I've got to find another spot to mount it.....I'm thinking about going under the car and mounting it to the midpipe on the exhaust.....however, I'm worried about how the sensor will hold up to the New England weather under there. I drive it in rain, snow, slush, etc, and I imagine I would need to essentially weather-proof the wiring. Any suggestions on how to do this?

Later today, I'll take some pics of the location I'm thinking about using.

B5Burn
10-09-2008, 09:49 AM
There is a ton of room under there... if you are never going to be messing with the sensor, I think there is a ton of space at the bottom of the DP, before it flattens out to the exhaust pipe. Pretty sure you can mount high enough inside the trans tunnel or right at the bottom of the DP and safely protect your wiring in there.

Not sure of the coatings on your sensor wiring, but I am sure it could be strengthened fairly easily with some sort of sheathing, zip-tied up and out of the way, done.

B.

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Well the car is finally back in one piece.....after a blown turbo that never should've been installed in the first place, I've installed a T25 GT3071r-wg, courtesy of 317ssayzarc.

Last night, I took it out for a cruises and it was relatively solid. However, when cruising, my AFRs continue to bounce a bit (no exhaust or vacuum leaks). They seem to go from around 14.2 to 15.2, which is okay, but I occasionally get a hickup to about 16.2+, and at times, I feel the car bucking very slight at partial throttle.

At idle, when the car is warm, the idle remains fairly bouncy, despite having driven it for over 130 miles so far. It holds fairly solid, and my AFRs are between 14.2 and 15.7, but when it bounces, it goes up to ~16.4, and occassionaly sounds as if its misfiring. This morning I went out and logged my idle. Chose to look at block 1, 20, and 26 to see if I was getting a misfire.

Block 26 revealed that the Knock Control voltage is much higher in cylinder 2 (how do I post a snap-shot of Excel?). Cylinder 2 voltage is over 1.1v, while the other 3 are between .35 and .48.....anyone know the issue here? Or is there somethin else that could explain this idle?

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 11:18 AM
Howd she pull my friend?

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Not quite as strong as I'd like....AFRs were fairly rich at WOT (dropped below 11.0)....I have my EBC set to 16psi right now, but it still needs to be dialed in to allow faster spool up


I've still gotta work out the kinks, but I wanna start with this Idle issue first

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 11:51 AM
Since its 01' you can Lemmi-tweak it right?

Send a pm to Don Supreme aka Sean and he'll get you sorted out [;)]

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 12:02 PM
I wish I could just have someone DO this for me.....I've got no energy for it right now

Nebone
10-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Is that Jakes custom turbo you got a hold of or a brand new one? If it's the one from his car, that thing, when it pulled, it pulled crazy.

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 12:10 PM
Yup, it's jake's old one.....its a great turbo, and I can't wait to get it running right. I basically stole it from him....gave me a price I couldn't refuse

Nebone
10-21-2008, 12:27 PM
Nice! I was in line for it but other stuff came up.

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Lucky me.....I'm glad I beat you to it, haha


Any idea what my problem could be? I've got a lot of data that ya'll could analyze.......I really wanna figure this out

Nebone
10-21-2008, 02:08 PM
Post your data on Google Docs and then we can view it. Google Documents (https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=writely&passive=true&nui=1&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F&followup=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F&ltmpl=homepage&rm=false)

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 02:13 PM
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ar?id=o04440531178514782707.1288052637803242238.02 533759919043187230.6631374592814868478&hl=en&action=1&tile=0&rpert=20&tfe=&srow=0&fprt=false&scol=0&ecol=undefined

Does that work?

Nebone
10-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Nah. First try didn't work...kinda like with your turbo ;)

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 02:22 PM
Nah. First try didn't work...kinda like with your turbo ;)

Oh you bastard.....lol.....HOW do I export a snapshot tho?.....yes.....I'm retarded

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 02:24 PM
Nah. First try didn't work...kinda like with your turbo ;)

Ass! [:p]

Nebone
10-21-2008, 02:27 PM
Ahh, the irony.

One thing you can do is zoom in on your data in excel, then press ALT+PrtSc together, then open Paint, then Edit>Paste, then save and upload as a regular .jpg.

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 02:54 PM
Done and done

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/GT30log.jpg

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 03:01 PM
Done and done

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee167/FattieJayMack/GT30log.jpg

Give us a WOT log thru a whole gear starting before boost hits and continuing thru till redline

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 03:11 PM
Well, the problem is at idle tho......I wont' be able to do any WOT runs for a while.....I don't have mirror caps on my car right now (long story), and its raining out now, and it will be tomorrow too

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 03:15 PM
Im not used to looking at part throttle/idle logs haha... Idk what to say

JumboBlack1.8
10-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Well, my question was basically just about block 026.....is it normal to have one cylinder draw more voltage that the other 3???? my guess was no

Cuz I'm currently on AIM with Vteccured (another AZ user), and he's got the same issue, but his is happening in Cylinder 4

317ssayzarc
10-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Nebone would be the best to answer your question, he spent weeks chasing a knock voltage issue

Devious27t
10-21-2008, 10:47 PM
Well, my question was basically just about block 026.....is it normal to have one cylinder draw more voltage that the other 3???? my guess was no

Cuz I'm currently on AIM with Vteccured (another AZ user), and he's got the same issue, but his is happening in Cylinder 4

cylinder 2 is always the loudest. when I get my car back up and running, I will take a look at the idle knock.

Nebone
10-22-2008, 07:59 AM
Knock voltage will always be more on cyl2. It's supposedly due to the sensor being right on the wall of cyl 2. If you're buddy is having the issue on cyl4 then that's a different story. Also, not much can be figured out from the voltage itself. You need to log timing retard on individual cylinders while doing a 3rd gear WOT run. That will show you how the engine is functioning.

Search knock under my name and you'll find some stuff there.

JumboBlack1.8
10-22-2008, 08:06 AM
Okay....thanks for the info.....its reassuring to know nothing is wrong in cylinder 2.....i promise my stupid questions will stop (most likely) as I've FINALLY ordered a bentley manual...and I"ll try to do some logs as soon as I can pass inspection (hopefully by friday)

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 10:59 AM
Okay....thanks for the info.....its reassuring to know nothing is wrong in cylinder 2.....i promise my stupid questions will stop (most likely) as I've FINALLY ordered a bentley manual...and I"ll try to do some logs as soon as I can pass inspection (hopefully by friday)

I may be able to get you thru MA inspections [;)]

JumboBlack1.8
10-22-2008, 12:09 PM
I may be able to get you thru MA inspections [;)]

I'm def gonna swing back down to RI some time soon so I can get some info/advice from you on how to get this thing to rip like it should....plus we never actually got to meet....how's the car comin?

317ssayzarc
10-22-2008, 12:20 PM
I'm def gonna swing back down to RI some time soon so I can get some info/advice from you on how to get this thing to rip like it should....plus we never actually got to meet....how's the car comin?

Eh, which one? Cant get a hold of the people that have my Audi and my Golf is FUCKED... Went to go work on it today because my mom let me borrow her car, the control arm and subframe (as well as the bolts that go into the frame) are so bent I cant get the bolts out... So, I guess both are coming along shitty haha