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View Full Version : Best Handling Modifications..



BONFIRE074
05-10-2008, 07:51 PM
Going fast is great, but what are some of the best mods for great handling and taking turns at good speeds and being able to stay in control? If people could mention what is good, as well as a link to check them out. Looking for specific products, not answers like "suspension"

To start ill put in the AWE Drive Train Stabilizer. I dont have one, but have read great things.

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/shared/part_detail.cfm?PMaI=1&PMoI=1&PEI=2&PP=a4_18t_drivetrain.cfm&PPT=Drivetrain&IL=AWEDTS

Overboostin
05-10-2008, 07:52 PM
tires, coilovers, sway bars, and the search function

freeskiwp
05-10-2008, 07:58 PM
Sticky tires...hankook rs2 ventus,Falken azenis 615's, etc. tires will make the biggest difference..

BONFIRE074
05-10-2008, 08:10 PM
tires, coilovers, sway bars, and the search function

What kind or tires, sizes, brands etc?

What kind of sway bars, sizes, etc?

What kind of coilovers?

Obv. it matters what size rims your on but some more info on the sidewalls, or tread pattern would help.

I dont think H&R ultra low coils would handle better than some of the other coils out there.

Yes i know a lot of this is covered in other threads but i wanted to see if this thread could be a basic handling thread so info would be easier to find[up]

Overboostin
05-10-2008, 08:13 PM
I have ultra lows and I like them a lot. I have a neuspeed rear antisway bar, and it helps a lot. You don't really need a front one because you just want to get rid of some of that understeer. For tires, you can compare high performance summer tires on tirerack.com to see what's best for your driving style and price range. freeski mentioned some good ones. I think im going with goodyear eagle f1's for my new tires this summer.

Overboostin
05-10-2008, 08:13 PM
Yes i know a lot of this is covered in other threads but i wanted to see if this thread could be a basic handling thread so info would be easier to find[up]

btw, good man. Lookin out for your audi bretheren. [up]

BONFIRE074
05-10-2008, 08:25 PM
Thanks for elaborating [up]

what about swaybar endlinks from the subys? Do a lot of people run those ( Perrin ones made for Rear Suby sway bars) how much do they help over stock?

Link for reference

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/wheel.html

Overboostin
05-10-2008, 08:28 PM
Idk, I've only heard about them vaguely from super low vw guys. I just have the 19mm neuspeed rear sway with the updated brackets. I'm sure someone else can comment on the endlinks. I assume though, the swaybar will make the more of a difference.

fred2ka4
05-10-2008, 08:42 PM
Idk, I've only heard about them vaguely from super low vw guys. I just have the 19mm neuspeed rear sway with the updated brackets. I'm sure someone else can comment on the endlinks. I assume though, the swaybar will make the more of a difference.

Along with the rear sway bar you might want to add the metal end links as well since Audi's are plastic. Here is a link from ECS Tuning:

http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/pagebuild_v2.cgi?searchstring=sway+bar+end+links&searchqt=byvehicle&make=Audi&model=B5+A4&submodel=Quattro&engine=1.8T

djwimbo
05-10-2008, 10:41 PM
H-sport(hotchkis) sway bars + rear metal sway bar links
STaSiS Street Sport Coilovers(reasonably priced), KW Coilovers (V1 starts at ~$1K), ...
235/40R17 tires - DOT Street tires, Falken Azenis, Nitto NT01 and a few others. Slicks Toyo RA1's, Hoosier (A6 IIRC), and a couple others.

FYI, just because the car sits low, doesn't mean it'll handle any better. Low = slow. Suspension is there to move and help you, not make you skip over the pavement, or decrease driveability.

solowb5
05-10-2008, 11:01 PM
I run the agency power front end links. It deffinately made you able to feel the road very well. Weather that is a good thing or not bc I get alot of travel. I think it really benifits on even pavement.

andyrew
05-11-2008, 01:07 AM
Seriously 2 threads exactly like this one in the past week.

Want handling?
Coil overs, Any brand of your liking. Get new with good shocks.
Rear sway, Bigger the better
Metal end links
Stasis Differential mod (give you more RWD to allow for better rotation under power)
Best street tires are Falken Azenis 615's, wrappped on light weight 17 or 16" wheels. You do the research here.
Alignment.


After that you'll see minimal improvement for exploded prices. (like your AWE drivetrain stabilizer)

TQMB5
05-11-2008, 07:09 AM
H-sport sways (do front and rear

A8-brake upgrade

streetsport coilovers

any poly mount you can put in, but you will have to deal with vibration

lighter wheels

lighter rotors

Siena
05-11-2008, 07:21 AM
H-sport(hotchkis) sway bars + rear metal sway bar links

FYI, just because the car sits low, doesn't mean it'll handle any better. Low = slow. Suspension is there to move and help you, not make you skip over the pavement, or decrease driveability.

I'm real glad someone at least agrees with me.

ShawFM
05-11-2008, 07:47 AM
just a thought: driving school then track time.

andyrew
05-11-2008, 10:52 AM
Agree with shawn. Try some autox's as well, get an instructor.

djwimbo
05-11-2008, 11:29 AM
AutoCross is where I learned how to actualy handle a car. Playing in the snow and rain is one thing, learning how to set up corners and make smooth lines is another. I'm still working on the throttle, I can't seem to keep it smooth.

onemoremile
05-11-2008, 06:29 PM
Autocross skills can get you into trouble on a track though. What works at 25-45 mph sends you off the road backwards at 70+.

I've run the H-Sport bars together, on each setting, and with just the rear. It was definitely best with the front on too. It tightens the front end and reduces understeer by making for sharper turn in. The decrease in yaw was huge.

Stock sport suspension with H-Sport bars should beat a car with coilovers, the same tires, and stock bars around a track. I'd bet good money that sport springs are faster than race springs too. Gotta keep the suspension in it's sweet spot. Too low and there isn't enough travel to effectively limit tire shock and the camber and toe curves get a little wacky.

bob12312357
05-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Sell the Audi, but an EVO. ;)

djwimbo
05-11-2008, 09:09 PM
Sell the Audi, but an EVO. ;)

At our AutoX I lost to an Evo, by .06 seconds. Our course is tiny, and it was his first time out. Either way, his car actually makes too much power for him to drive it in the corners. Another driver took the same car around the course and beat me by almost 1.5 seconds. Our cars don't have the same rigidity, suspension, and well out of the box performance. We do have class, something Evo drivers definitely lack.

Edit: As far as how much trouble AutoX driving skills can get you or me into, I want to find out. At this point I'm still flying by the seat of my pants, for driving skill at least.

dingguhlbary
05-11-2008, 10:07 PM
you should check out shine racing suspension. i know they do a lot of math work to keep the car in the sweet spot suspension wise, and you still get an ok drop.

Kyle H
05-11-2008, 10:20 PM
you should check out shine racing suspension. i know they do a lot of math work to keep the car in the sweet spot suspension wise, and you still get an ok drop.
True. www.srsvw.com <-- go!

I almost went with them, but I don't know if I like the idea of riding close to stock ride height if I can get somewhat comparable performance and have better looks while doing it with coilovers.

iin10ded
05-12-2008, 04:48 PM
if you've got more than 80k on your front suspension i'd consider a complete arm kit. it did wonders for mine with tracking straight and turning accurately. and a good alignment.

i really like my DTS - made a huge difference in 'feel' and reducing front end slop. well worth it.

also upgraded mounts and a snub help keep the drivetrain from moving around. 034 street density is great stuff.

rottb5
05-12-2008, 06:54 PM
you should check out shine racing suspension. i know they do a lot of math work to keep the car in the sweet spot suspension wise, and you still get an ok drop.

X3 these guys design suspension with one thing in mind

ExpLlclT
05-12-2008, 09:06 PM
first hand experience from me H-sport front and rear sway bars with subframe braket and my RE01 bridgestone potenzas i hate my STaSIS street coilovers because they are too soft but OVERALL ALIGN YOUR CAR im set at -1.5 camberall round +5caster with .11 toe out in the rear and my rear sway is set at stiffest rate i oversteer slightly when i let off the throttle but its to my liking and what im comfortable with fuck around with setting your suspensions up but don't touch your alignment unless you have access to a laser alignment rack like i did hope it helps research more

djwimbo
05-12-2008, 09:28 PM
first hand experience from me H-sport front and rear sway bars with subframe braket and my RE01 bridgestone potenzas i hate my STaSIS street coilovers because they are too soft but OVERALL ALIGN YOUR CAR im set at -1.5 camberall round +5caster with .11 toe out in the rear and my rear sway is set at stiffest rate i oversteer slightly when i let off the throttle but its to my liking and what im comfortable with fuck around with setting your suspensions up but don't touch your alignment unless you have access to a laser alignment rack like i did hope it helps research more

Your screen name accurately describes you typing abilities.

If you hate your Stasis setup, sell it. There's plenty of people that would love to have your used coilovers, like me.

You do realize that there isn't a camber adjustment for the front individually, right? All you can do is shift the subframe so that both sides are equal. -1.5* camber in the rear seems a bit excessive, at least for a DD.
How are you adjusting caster? And are you aware of what positive caster does?

djwimbo
05-12-2008, 09:30 PM
True. www.srsvw.com <-- go!


Their website is being updated, since Jan 1st. I can't access their stuff.

onemoremile
05-14-2008, 07:58 PM
first hand experience from me H-sport front and rear sway bars with subframe braket and my RE01 bridgestone potenzas i hate my STaSIS street coilovers because they are too soft but OVERALL ALIGN YOUR CAR im set at -1.5 camberall round +5caster with .11 toe out in the rear and my rear sway is set at stiffest rate i oversteer slightly when i let off the throttle but its to my liking and what im comfortable with fuck around with setting your suspensions up but don't touch your alignment unless you have access to a laser alignment rack like i did hope it helps research more

That can't be right. Toe out in the rear wouldn't oversteer slightly it would spin you off the road. Ask owners of older Porsches. The P-car snap oversteer solution was dynamic rear toe in under compression. Toe out steers the rear to the outside of the corner and is extremely dangerous on the street.

For what it's worth, properly set up toe strings and an engineer's scale are more accurate than a laser alignment rig.

tamadrumr88
05-14-2008, 08:18 PM
Autocross skills can get you into trouble on a track though. What works at 25-45 mph sends you off the road backwards at 70+.

most definitely, my instructor at my first HPDE asked how many times i've autox'd before this first event because he could tell in the way I was driving my car

autocross is all about flicking the car around wildly while still being ever so slightly in control. road racing is all about being smooth and setting up your line correctly. being smooth is faster than tossing the car about wildly and driving on "the edge"

ExpLlclT
05-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Your screen name accurately describes you typing abilities.

If you hate your Stasis setup, sell it. There's plenty of people that would love to have your used coilovers, like me.

You do realize that there isn't a camber adjustment for the front individually, right? All you can do is shift the subframe so that both sides are equal. -1.5* camber in the rear seems a bit excessive, at least for a DD.
How are you adjusting caster? And are you aware of what positive caster does?

my hieght set the camber you idiot caster is positive 5 stock are you retarded ? i aligned my car knowing what i want i drive the shit out of my car daily. im sorry im not the cruiser type positive caster is better for high speed aka freeway and will make your cars steering return quicker to strait if you let go of the wheel , positive caster will make it a little bit harder for you to steer if you adjust it positive also. where in my statement did you get your dought from ? if i was made of money and had enough to switch out the coilovers i would. you can buy a front camber kit to. i dunno your statement underminding me is rediculous.

Your screen name accurately describes you typing abilities.

Squarrl
05-14-2008, 10:41 PM
I had my car set at like 24 inches front and 23.5 back when it first had coilovers on. lasted a day now im at 25.25

onemoremile
05-15-2008, 08:10 AM
Chill out guys. Positive caster is a very good thing as long as the steering isn't too heavy. Positive caster creates camber when turning without compromising braking and acceleration when going straight.

InTTruder
05-15-2008, 08:36 AM
Weight 1st. IF you can reduce weight, you won't need as much brute force (springs, sway bars, shox, or HP) to make the car do what you want.

Avoid stiffening the FSB unless you up the RSB accordingly. Be judicious with the RSB: to much and you'll have some interesting oversteer offs.

You guys need to grow up some, it seems.

Changing front Camber has a positive effect on turn in, and negative effect on wear and track. Unless you race daily, or for a living, avoid high negative front camber. Have you ever seen THIS CHART (http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm). Study it and behave accordingly. Best one-page I know.

Enjoy!

soupie69uk
05-15-2008, 09:38 AM
What setting do you guys have both H-sport ARB's on for on the road not the track?

onemoremile
05-15-2008, 09:59 AM
I've run the rear bar on stiff and soft and there isn't much difference on the street. Nobody should go near the limits on public roads anyway. There is just too much that can go wrong.

soupie69uk
05-15-2008, 10:00 AM
Yeah I wondered if the stiffest setting was perhaps too much for the street.

onemoremile
05-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Weight 1st. IF you can reduce weight, you won't need as much brute force (springs, sway bars, shox, or HP) to make the car do what you want.

Avoid stiffening the FSB unless you up the RSB accordingly. Be judicious with the RSB: to much and you'll have some interesting oversteer offs.

You guys need to grow up some, it seems.

Changing front Camber has a positive effect on turn in, and negative effect on wear and track. Unless you race daily, or for a living, avoid high negative front camber. Have you ever seen THIS CHART (http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm). Study it and behave accordingly. Best one-page I know.

Enjoy!

There isn't much we can do to reduce weight on a daily driven basis. I've pulled half the interior (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/onemoremile/?action=view&current=IMG_2075.jpg) for track days and lap times only improved by a fraction of a second.

Anything under 2 degrees of camber won't change tire wear much. Tire longevity, tracking, and even turn in are more effected by toe than anything else. If you've got negative camber and bad toe settings the insides will wear quickly and make it look like camber is at fault. If you had 0 camber but bad toe the whole tire would wear funny (feathering the tread towards the inside or outside) and quickly, tracking would be terrible, and gas mileage would suffer along with acceleration and braking. Negative camber hurts braking more than anything else.

For what it's worth, I had removed the front bar for a month and had just the rear on stiff and it was no more prone to oversteer than with both bars. The front bar on our cars does the second half of what is shown in that chart. "allowing better tire contact patch compliance with the road surface, reducing understeer." The front bar tightens up the front dramatically and helps sharped turn-in. One of these days I'll hit the track and disconnect one of the front end links to see what effect it has on lap times. I also want to run the rear at both settings.

Excellent post by the way. I've used that chart often for everything from helping forum members and setting my car up for the track (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/onemoremile/?action=view&current=img_1510.jpg) to tweaking cars in video games. [:p]

djwimbo
05-15-2008, 11:24 AM
You guys need to grow up some, it seems.

Changing front Camber has a positive effect on turn in, and negative effect on wear and track. Unless you race daily, or for a living, avoid high negative front camber. Have you ever seen THIS CHART (http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm)

Agreed, I stepped off my high horse.

Negative Camber isn't a bad thing. Most production cars have negative camber off the line. Too much is not a good thing. -1.5 degrees on a street car isn't a big deal. The first time I aligned my car it had -1.4 and -1.2 in the rear. I put it back into spec, but there wasn't any noticeable tire wear



Anything under 2 degrees of camber won't change tire wear much. Tire longevity, tracking, and even turn in are more effected by toe than anything else. If you've got negative camber and bad toe settings the insides will wear quickly and make it look like camber is at fault. If you had 0 camber but bad toe the whole tire would wear funny (feathering the tread towards the inside or outside) and quickly, tracking would be terrible, and gas mileage would suffer along with acceleration and braking. Negative camber hurts braking more than anything else.

Excellent post by the way. I've used that chart often for everything from helping forum members and setting my car up for the track (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/onemoremile/?action=view&current=img_1510.jpg) to tweaking cars in video games. [:p]

Agreed, The first thing covered in Steering and Suspension is that Toe is the primary tire wear angle. As far as recommendations for toe on a tracked car, AutoX car, etc, I'm not a good source for this info as I have not tweaked my car for such events. I set it at streetable specs that will be predictable when I play with it.
Some negative camber is favorable on a out of the box car. It helps prevent the car from wandering or following wear patterns in the road.
Positive caster does help reduce turning effort, but too much makes a horrible ride and instability at higher speeds.


Many European luxury sedans have a lot of caster for this very reason because it provides a more stable feel at highway speeds. The downside is that it increases steering effort and steering feedback to the driver.

I don't remember what the Caster Spec is for our cars. I'm 99.9% sure from the factory it's Negative 2-3 degrees. I just aligned my car, and yes my caster is a lil screwy, but it's supposed to be negative. At least that's what Hunter's Specs were for my car w/ 1BE suspension.

I appologize for my previous comment, I wrote out exactly what I was thinking, not a editted logical thought process. I didn't see how the caster could be adjusted that far positive.

onemoremile
05-15-2008, 12:11 PM
Positive caster is when the steering axis leans back like a chopper. It increases steering effort since it tends to keep the wheels straight. It also increases camber in a corner. Picture a chopper with it's front wheel turned (or flopped over if it is a radical extension).

Negative caster is when the steering axis leans forward like in an old car (pre 70s) with bias ply tires. They had negative caster because bias ply tires distort at speed and look like cartoon tires. This distortion creates positive camber. If you put radial tires on an old car it would be very sketchy until the caster was corrected.

http://www.dunlop.ca/img/care/caster.gif

http://www.dunlop.ca/img/care/camber.gif

http://www.dunlop.ca/img/care/toe_in.gif


Audi does not provide a caster spec for our cars. The specs are here (http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17622).

onemoremile
05-15-2008, 12:18 PM
Here, I'll make this easy. Thanks be to Brett.


here are the OEM alignment specs for the 1996-2001 A4 quattro:

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/620alignspecsquat.JPG
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/620alignspecsquat2.JPG

Since the OEM specs are in minutes/seconds, here is an online converter to convert them to decimal degrees:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/indivdegradminseccalc.html

Use the lower half of the page and enter the OEM spec as minutes and zero seconds. That will give you the decimal degree value that alignment systems work on. Cars that came with the sport suspension or are using lowering springs should use the 1BE specs. If you are on the OEM non-sport suspension use the 1BA specs.

Good Luck.[:D]

djwimbo
05-15-2008, 12:35 PM
Positive caster is when the steering axis leans back like a chopper. It increases steering effort since it tends to keep the wheels straight. It also increases camber in a corner. Picture a chopper with it's front wheel turned (or flopped over if it is a radical extension).

Negative caster is when the steering axis leans forward like in an old car (pre 70s) with bias ply tires. They had negative caster because bias ply tires distort at speed and look like cartoon tires. This distortion creates positive camber. If you put radial tires on an old car it would be very sketchy until the caster was corrected.


Psitive caster is like a stretched out bike of motorcycle, Negative caster is like a shopping cart.
Ever wondered why a FWD car does such goo reverse donuts? Caster plays a major role in that one. Take a car that has negative caster going in forward, put it in reverse, and the steering wheels are not only in the rear, they now have positive Caster.

Audi doesn't specify a Caster adjustment, but is there an easy way to do it? I didn't have time to shift the subframe around when I did it the second time, to see if it would effect the caster or not.

onemoremile
06-06-2008, 01:26 PM
Psitive caster is like a stretched out bike of motorcycle, Negative caster is like a shopping cart.
Ever wondered why a FWD car does such goo reverse donuts? Caster plays a major role in that one. Take a car that has negative caster going in forward, put it in reverse, and the steering wheels are not only in the rear, they now have positive Caster.

Audi doesn't specify a Caster adjustment, but is there an easy way to do it? I didn't have time to shift the subframe around when I did it the second time, to see if it would effect the caster or not.

You're getting these mixed up a bit. The motorcycle and shopping part are dead on but a FWD has positive caster going forward and negative caster going backwards. Take another look at the picture I posted above.

I've got no idea if there is a way to adjust caster. If you had too much positive camber a car wouldn't be sketchy at speed it would be very hard to turn at all. Negative camber is what makes a car sketchy.

kingtr
06-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Along with the rear sway bar you might want to add the metal end links as well since Audi's are plastic. Here is a link from ECS Tuning:

http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/pagebuild_v2.cgi?searchstring=sway+bar+end+links&searchqt=byvehicle&make=Audi&model=B5+A4&submodel=Quattro&engine=1.8T

Yeah, I put off upgrading the rear links, figured they were fine. With my neuspeed on stiffest setting it snapped the plastic link on one side (while I was cornering I might add, wow does everything change when the rear bar all of a sudden gives out.) Got a set of metal ones from Purems.com. Front links seem pretty good to me, but the perin ones (used on subies) are quite popular. They didnt seem as important as swapping out the rear plastic ones...

kingtr
06-06-2008, 05:41 PM
i dunno your statement underminding me is rediculous.

Your screen name accurately describes you typing abilities.

What's this underminding about? Is it similar to undermining or no? Just curious. --> Quite slamming people, they were simple questions/comments, no need to start calling him an idiot etc..

And IF you do elect to call someone an idiot, please spell shit right and use the correct words. Spelling lesson, and this is JUST from the above, 2 sentence quote: Underminding (undermining), rediculous (ridiculous), and you (your).

Let me know if there are any other brain-busters you need help with!

Cheers

Toyotatech
06-06-2008, 06:34 PM
Audi does not provide a caster spec for our cars.

It's not adjustable on our cars.