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View Full Version : BT software 440, 550, 630cc's (?'s)



dualaudi
02-15-2008, 11:02 AM
Why do some tuners use 440's (mika) and some use anywhere from 440's to 630cc's for their tunes (uni)?

If you can tune for larger injectors on the same application (i.e. gtrs) why not just tune for the larger injectors? Wouldn't it be safer to have more fueling if needed vs. possible lean issues with smaller injectors?

Poopie
02-15-2008, 11:03 AM
I dont' think uni has a 630 tune yet for DBC. Only one I know of is chris tapp

Oricle
02-15-2008, 11:20 AM
Why do some tuners use 440's (mika) and some use anywhere from 440's to 630cc's for their tunes (uni)?

If you can tune for larger injectors on the same application (i.e. gtrs) why not just tune for the larger injectors? Wouldn't it be safer to have more fueling if needed vs. possible lean issues with smaller injectors?

630's are typically over kill. I'm running stock injectors on my BT and when tuned I was close to 250WHP and still running rich with just a 5 bar FPR. After my test pipe, 3" inlet, removing the k03 adapter, FMIC, I'm thinking I'm at around 280WHP on pump, and pushing right about the limits.

Poopie
02-15-2008, 11:23 AM
have you logged your injector duty cycle? Your stock fuel pump is probably so strained.

a220vt
02-15-2008, 11:25 AM
Unitronic does have a 630cc file for DBC, I looked into it before I decided on the CTapp file.

Oricle
02-15-2008, 11:34 AM
have you logged your injector duty cycle? Your stock fuel pump is probably so strained.

Actually last time I tried logging it my throttle was cutting out, due to over boosting. My O2 values were at .08 all the way up to 4600 RPM's, than my throttle angle went to 40%

mike-2ptzero
02-15-2008, 12:16 PM
Throttle can close for many more reasons then just over boosting. At the end of running ecu tuning my throttle was closing even though I had a diode on the map sensor and could run more then 22psi without any problems.


660's are really only needed when running high boost on a GT30 setup or when going mid boost on a GT35r on a 2 liter.

Don Supreme
02-15-2008, 12:24 PM
630's are typically over kill. I'm running stock injectors on my BT and when tuned I was close to 250WHP and still running rich with just a 5 bar FPR. After my test pipe, 3" inlet, removing the k03 adapter, FMIC, I'm thinking I'm at around 280WHP on pump, and pushing right about the limits.

Stop spreading these lies man....

Your dyno shows that you BARELY hit your peak number and it falls off immediately..... That is not a true 280 WHP or anywhere close.

To: OP

I recommend the 630/660c as they seem to idle better than the 440s. I run 6xx CC @ 4 bar. I ran the 440s prior on my previous setup.

dualaudi
02-15-2008, 12:24 PM
So i guess when people beat up on mika tuning, running 440's is not the porblem, it's other programming issues with the s/w...

i know trying to get the most HP has to do with how much boost and accompanying mods, But it stands to reason that you can make more HP with a tune that's utilizing bigger injectors correct? vs. one that runs 440's

winston@podi.ca
02-15-2008, 12:33 PM
Well more fuel allows you to make more power. That's the obvious part.

AFAIK a properly tuned file with 440s can make a hell of a lot more power than a hacked file running 630s with really bad AFRs

dougyfresh
02-15-2008, 12:38 PM
I'm running 630s and have no problems whatsoever. Injector duty cycle is low too so there's plenty of overhead for the future..

mike-2ptzero
02-15-2008, 12:44 PM
Well you really want to match the amount of injector needed with the amount of power that is going to be made. Going too large means that only a small amount of the injector is being used, using a smaller set would be that there would be a much wider scale for the tuner to use. This is why you dont see tuners using 440cc or larger injectors for the K04 setups. Larger injectors are also harder to idle, one of the reasons no one is using 800-1000cc injectors since they are very hard to idle.

maxspeed
02-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Stop spreading these lies man....

Your dyno shows that you BARELY hit your peak number and it falls off immediately..... That is not a true 280 WHP or anywhere close.

To: OP

I recommend the 630/660c as they seem to idle better than the 440s. I run 6xx CC @ 4 bar. I ran the 440s prior on my previous setup.


thank god someone else said it this time, i didnt want oricle to think i had a vandetta against him, but yea that dyno plot he posted up is garbage, it shows one barely 240whp SPIKE that if the smoothing was turned on, wouldnt even show up. dont know what its gonna take to convince him he has a 200whp car...

maxspeed
02-15-2008, 02:19 PM
Well you really want to match the amount of injector needed with the amount of power that is going to be made. Going too large means that only a small amount of the injector is being used, using a smaller set would be that there would be a much wider scale for the tuner to use. This is why you dont see tuners using 440cc or larger injectors for the K04 setups. Larger injectors are also harder to idle, one of the reasons no one is using 800-1000cc injectors since they are very hard to idle.

autoxtreme out of montreal is using 1000cc injectors on there 1.8t golf build

bassed
02-15-2008, 02:43 PM
have you logged your injector duty cycle? Your stock fuel pump is probably so strained.

2nd

Oricle
02-15-2008, 03:29 PM
Stop spreading these lies man....

Your dyno shows that you BARELY hit your peak number and it falls off immediately..... That is not a true 280 WHP or anywhere close.

To: OP

I recommend the 630/660c as they seem to idle better than the 440s. I run 6xx CC @ 4 bar. I ran the 440s prior on my previous setup.

The reason is overboosting. If I showed you my logs you'd understand.
As soon as I hit in those rpms it cuts throttle. Right at about 5000 RPM it closes throttle down to 40%.
The point is, you don't need big injectors to break into mid 200 WHP's. I'm actually about to go toss in a diode right now since it's sunny.

mike-2ptzero
02-15-2008, 03:36 PM
autoxtreme out of montreal is using 1000cc injectors on there 1.8t golf build

I run 1000cc too but on a stand alone using low imp injectors. But as you said, they do use it on their "race" car.

Oricle
02-15-2008, 03:38 PM
Throttle can close for many more reasons then just over boosting. At the end of running ecu tuning my throttle was closing even though I had a diode on the map sensor and could run more then 22psi without any problems.


660's are really only needed when running high boost on a GT30 setup or when going mid boost on a GT35r on a 2 liter.

What other reasons was yours closing for? We anticipated some problems with that considering we tweaked a k04 file for my BT, and planned on having to run a diode along with a MBC/EBC. After my boost exceeds requested boost it closes throttle on all my logs.

dualaudi
02-15-2008, 04:15 PM
how do you tweak a file? do some shops have eeprom readers and software for this?

mike-2ptzero
02-15-2008, 04:18 PM
What other reasons was yours closing for? We anticipated some problems with that considering we tweaked a k04 file for my BT, and planned on having to run a diode along with a MBC/EBC. After my boost exceeds requested boost it closes throttle on all my logs.

I was maxing out the stock maf sensor in a 3.5" housing at that point.

maxspeed
02-15-2008, 04:52 PM
I run 1000cc too but on a stand alone using low imp injectors. But as you said, they do use it on their "race" car.

right but there doing it on me7, so it could be done in a street legal car...

pac1085
02-15-2008, 05:09 PM
right but there doing it on me7, so it could be done in a street legal car...

u can get a car to idle on huge injectors, but its usually too rich for daily driver use.. found that out the hard way when I went with delphi 788cc low imp's.

djwimbo
02-15-2008, 05:26 PM
Why do some tuners use 440's (mika) and some use anywhere from 440's to 630cc's for their tunes (uni)?

If you can tune for larger injectors on the same application (i.e. gtrs) why not just tune for the larger injectors? Wouldn't it be safer to have more fueling if needed vs. possible lean issues with smaller injectors?

You could throw a 630cc file at a T3S60 too if you wanted. In all reality what it breaks down to is how much power the user is trying to achieve.
Obviously if you have 440 injectors, you should use a 440 file, and the same w/ a 630 setup. Each has it's limitations as to peak power.
Personally, I plan to break my engine in on a 440 then step up to a 630 after a full break in period, maybe even a season.
For example, 440cc/42lb injectors @ 3 Bar (std rating pressure) can push ~300hp between 80-85% duty cycle, including a low BSFC of .45
Whereas a 630cc/60lb in the same condition can produce 425-450hp. In theory. This all depends on the tuner, turbo, ambient temps, etc,...
Most people see less power than this because they're set up for a higher BSFC, such as .55-.60. Obviously fuel pressure is an issue as well, but I personally would NEVER recommend using anything higher than a 4Bar FPR. 5Bar FPR's that are used w/ Neuspeed's kits it's hell on pumps. NTM the fact that your pump will flow more volume at a lower pressure 3-4Bar than it can even dream of at 5Bar.
Best thing you can do is figure out hoe much wheel horse power you're looking to make and do some research. Call some tuners/chip companies and see what they recommend w/ whatever turbo you plan to run and how much you wanna make.