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ILoveT
02-04-2008, 12:05 PM
Before I get started, this post is addressing the new manifold from Issam.
http://80tq.com/~wiz/gallery2/d/1942-2/072.jpg

I know none of you will know how to react to this since I am such a new member so here goes.

I really don’t think it is my place to even start this thread but I think someone needs to. All the other threads addressing it get pooped on and all jumbled up to the point where no one can really decipher what the hell is going on. My question is this: Where in the hell are the numbers for this manifold? The real true numbers a company does to push a good product. I realize Mike is using, what looks like, a rough variation of this manifold at best. How INA advertises this manifold is, “Mike uses it, why shouldn’t you?” The manifolds look nothing a like. It just seems to me that INA is pushing a product by hiding behind a prominent member of the VAG community.

Here is a quote: INA,
“Well Mike made over 500whp with them so they can’t be THAT bad.” Talking about the runners.

Another quote: INA
“Hi Guys,
As some of you may know, Mike Hood is running around with an after market intake manifold which helped him make over 60whp gain on a mustang dyno after an engine rebuild. This manifold basically doubles the size of the plenum and has built in velocity stacks.”
So all you’re saying there is that Mike has an aftermarket manifold that gave him some WHP? You are trying to con people into buying a manifold by saying Mike gained some power from a manifold. Numbers? Of course not!

What is so God damn hard about providing flow numbers for this damn manifold? Is it seriously that hard? I see people jumping on this manifold because of the people that are selling it. These people have a lot of pull in the VAG community from what I can tell in the few months I have been here. Every time someone asks for numbers, Mike’s name always gets thrown out there and everyone forgets what is going on. “OMGz someone said Mike is using this manifold so I needz it.” Come on!

All I am asking if for a flow chart or something! Numbers talk more than hearsay. Mike, I am not trying to call you out what so ever but it is doesn’t speak very highly of you. You are basically standing behind a product that doesn’t have proof. I can’t count how many times people have asked for numbers for this thing. All the attempts have been swept under the rug. Why?

Maybe this thread is completely off base and I just didn’t search hard enough but I highly doubt that is the case. Someone provide some numbers so people know what they are getting into. I don’t want to hear that crap about how people won’t put there money where their mouth is. Why INA won’t put his product where his mouth is….is just crazy. At least do it for the community.

Even If I just made a fool out of myself maybe this thread will provide some people with answers.

Mike

AudiA4_20T
02-04-2008, 12:21 PM
agreed, amen to this thread

tamadrumr88
02-04-2008, 12:25 PM
agreed. and this doesn't pertain to only this product. what is the cost of a dyno these days? $80 for 3 runs? we're spending hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars on a product and the vendor/manufacturer can't even put the product on a car and dyno it?

now we're going to have to bring up ethics because if we're not in person to make sure that the only change between two dynos was the product in question, how can we make sure that no other changes were made?

audisnapr
02-04-2008, 12:28 PM
now we're going to have to bring up ethics because if we're not in person to make sure that the only change between two dynos was the product in question, how can we make sure that no other changes were made?

we have to take their word on it just like we do with every other product on the market that claims HP gains. And generally, we do... blindly.

Don Supreme
02-04-2008, 12:30 PM
agreed, amen to this thread

Too bad you can't share your knowledge huh?

killa
02-04-2008, 12:47 PM
Too bad you can't share your knowledge huh?

Design looks pretty good, i'd be wiling to test and spend the $$$ without a problem.

mike-2ptzero
02-04-2008, 12:52 PM
agreed. and this doesn't pertain to only this product. what is the cost of a dyno these days? $80 for 3 runs? we're spending hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars on a product and the vendor/manufacturer can't even put the product on a car and dyno it?

now we're going to have to bring up ethics because if we're not in person to make sure that the only change between two dynos was the product in question, how can we make sure that no other changes were made?


AWD dyno's are $100-$150 per hr, the only time you will see $80 for 3 pulls is for a dyno day and that is not the time to do testing since they just want to pull each car on, do 3 quick runs and pull it off.

Most dyno shops will not allow you to work on the car while it is on the dyno and even if they do this means you are paying for the dyno time while working on the car and this adds up quick when trying to swap parts on the car between tests.

As for the aftermarket intake manifold goes, every one is going to see different gains because not everyone here is going to be flowing more air then the stock manifold can handle and none of us are running the same amount of power. Issam uses my car as an example because I was the first to test it and the fact that my A4 is making the most power out of all the A4's out there so saying that his manifold was able to give me a 68+whp gain even though that # is actually much higher once you factor in the fact that the dyno I was on is setup to read 10% lower at the wheels then a standard dyno and as you know if you add 10% to a higher # you end up with a much higher gain between the before(488) and after(556) results. Basicly my car went from 500whp to close to 615-630whp, this means the gains are closer to 115-130whp not the 68whp claimed by Issam. Both engines were fresh so the changes I make inside the block didn't making any huge gains, the only other thing that was done to the car before it put down the 556whp was the fact that it got 1mm over intake valves, Issams intake manifold and the VR6 throttle body.

The biggest results from Issam's manifold were the fact that it decreased hp drop off after peak hp was reached which basicly shows that the new manifold has a better and higher flow rate then the stock intake manifold when pushing 600whp and pushing 8k-8500 rpms.


As you can see it is very simple and the fact is that I "DID" pay for the manifold once it was on the car.[:D]

ModifiedA4
02-04-2008, 12:53 PM
And generally, we do... blindly.

Wisdom. [up]

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 01:04 PM
All I am saying Mike, is that everything looks really shady. People, namely onemoremile, have asked numerous times for flow numbers. If people are willing to buy a $900 manifold when there is no proof that it actually gives a gain I'm sure they would be willing to spend $1000 on a proven manifold.

Is $100 not enough for R&D per manifold? Then up the price. My money is tight and I like to see proof that what I am buying is going to be worth it.

Still no flow numbers.

mike-2ptzero
02-04-2008, 01:21 PM
All I am saying Mike, is that everything looks really shady. People, namely onemoremile, have asked numerous times for flow numbers. If people are willing to buy a $900 manifold when there is no proof that it actually gives a gain I'm sure they would be willing to spend $1000 on a proven manifold.

Is $100 not enough for R&D per manifold? Then up the price. My money is tight and I like to see proof that what I am buying is going to be worth it.

Still no flow numbers.

Well you have to understand that people were having no problems paying $2200 for a Dahlback manifold that was not tested and when it was there was "zero" gains even for those that were pushing high hp at the time.

So how about this, what if I was willing to sell a few people that would like to buy Issam's manifold so they can test it to see if they get any gains. If they dont find it to give them any gains I would be willing to buy it right back at what they paid for it, so they only thing they would be out would be shipping and their time. How does that sound?

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 01:30 PM
Well you have to understand that people were having no problems paying $2200 for a Dahlback manifold that was not tested and when it was there was "zero" gains even for those that were pushing high hp at the time.

So how about this, what if I was willing to sell a few people that would like to buy Issam's manifold so they can test it to see if they get any gains. If they dont find it to give them any gains I would be willing to buy it right back at what they paid for it, so they only thing they would be out would be shipping and their time. How does that sound?

That would actually be really cool. But the customer is still having to do the research that INA should have done before it was on the market. How about I pay for shipping on one of the manifolds and send it back within a week regardless of any gains. I have a dyno at school that is open for use anytime. I could do a run before and after the install. The dyno would cost me no money and INA and you would reap all the benefits. I would be happy to give you all of my information so that you are comfortable with me having the manifold. [up] or [down] This isn't gladiator so up means yes and down means no. [:D]

317ssayzarc
02-04-2008, 01:34 PM
That would actually be really cool. But the customer is still having to do the research that INA should have done before it was on the market. How about I pay for shipping on one of the manifolds and send it back within a week regardless of any gains. I have a dyno at school that is open for use anytime. I could do a run before and after the install. The dyno would cost me no money and INA and you would reap all the benefits. I would be happy to give you all of my information so that you are comfortable with me having the manifold. [up] or [down] This isn't gladiator so up means yes and down means no. [:D]

whats your setup? this is really meant as an upgrade for bt cars... but im sure issam wouldnt mind any results regardless of the setup, but ill let him have the final word on that... i applaud your generousity for the better of all of us [up]

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 01:40 PM
I don't have a setup I am completely stock. I'm really not trying to be a dick here. I really want to be apart of the community and help out. Let me know what is going on though. If Issam says it's ok I will be more than happy to hop on the dyno.

AudiRacerS4
02-04-2008, 02:31 PM
I don't have a setup I am completely stock. I'm really not trying to be a dick here. I really want to be apart of the community and help out. Let me know what is going on though. If Issam says it's ok I will be more than happy to hop on the dyno.

i hate to burst your bubble but you are not the correct person to test this manifold out. You need to be making a lot of power in which the stock intake manifold starts to become a restriction in order to see gains from an after market intake manifold like this. Secondly have you noticed it uses 8 fuel injectors not 4 and theres no way you can run 1000cc of fuel on a stock car

Wizard-of-OD
02-04-2008, 03:16 PM
I really don’t think it is my place to even start this thread but I think someone needs to.
Why wouldnt it be your place?You are a potential customer who may 1 day run said manifold.


It just seems to me that INA is pushing a product by hiding behind a prominent member of the VAG community.
INA = me = Wizard-of-OD.I have been a member of this community just as long.I am not hiding behind anyone.Mike approached me 2 years ago when he heard I developed parts and wanted to try my intake manifold.I sent him the prototype


What is so God damn hard about providing flow numbers for this damn manifold? Is it seriously that hard?
How about that costly....I know the manifold works,those AROUND me know the manifold works.The design makes sense and thats what counts....if you believe the design is flawed then simply either:
(a) dont buy it
(b) design your own
(c) Buy Dahlback's for $2200US which is the only other option besides this manifold.
I have sold about 4 of the manifolds to "prominent" people and none of them are posters on AZ.Sad isnt it?No if's and's or but's...they saw it,they saw the plenum back plate,they saw the plenum and said hey....I want that.

Incase you didnt know,I was one of the guys that did the 1.8T intake manifold test.I know what works and what does not.

Let me teach you a little bit about economics.There is hardly a market for an aftermarket longitudinal intake manifold,there are about 50 people modifying there MKIV's for 1 Audi B5 owner .
Investing in Dyno time or flow charts only adds to the COSTS of the manifold.A cost which will be transferred to YOU the buyer.
What does this mean?A more expensive Manifold...a manifold which is allready expensive to make. Then you will complain : "OMGZ thats too expensive for me,I am better off buying something else".


All I am asking if for a flow chart or something! Numbers talk more than hearsay.
Really?They do?See my point above....


At least do it for the community.
I have done more than my fair share for this community.Please take the time to research who is who.....nobody writes more technical threads than me.That is something I take pride in.

If you want to wait till these people test this manifold with back to back dyno's then by all means wait.If you want to continue talking trash for the sake of talking trash then go right ahead.

mike-2ptzero
02-04-2008, 03:26 PM
i hate to burst your bubble but you are not the correct person to test this manifold out. You need to be making a lot of power in which the stock intake manifold starts to become a restriction in order to see gains from an after market intake manifold like this. Secondly have you noticed it uses 8 fuel injectors not 4 and theres no way you can run 1000cc of fuel on a stock car

Correct on the fact that is car just isn't going to help with testing since it is 100% stock and the stock manifold works just fine for the amount of power he is making. The testing really needs to be done on a BT or BAT setup which is where the stock manifold is going to be the restriction.

Issam makes the manifolds in many different ways, mine uses just 1 injectors per cylinder and that is how most people will end up ordering the manifold. The picture that issam posted up is most likely a setup that he plans on running on his 2 liter so that when he feels like running E85 he will have enough injector to do so since E85 needs 60% more fuel then running standard fuels.

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Why wouldnt it be your place?You are a potential customer who may 1 day run said manifold.

INA = me = Wizard-of-OD.I have been a member of this community just as long.I am not hiding behind anyone.Mike approached me 2 years ago when he heard I developed parts and wanted to try my intake manifold.I sent him the prototype

How about that costly....I know the manifold works,those AROUND me know the manifold works.The design makes sense and thats what counts....if you believe the design is flawed then simply either:
(a) dont buy it
(b) design your own
(c) Buy Dahlback's for $2200US which is the only other option besides this manifold.
I have sold about 4 of the manifolds to "prominent" people and none of them are posters on AZ.Sad isnt it?No if's and's or but's...they saw it,they saw the plenum back plate,they saw the plenum and said hey....I want that.

Incase you didnt know,I was one of the guys that did the 1.8T intake manifold test.I know what works and what does not.

Let me teach you a little bit about economics.There is hardly a market for an aftermarket longitudinal intake manifold,there are about 50 people modifying there MKIV's for 1 Audi B5 owner .
Investing in Dyno time or flow charts only adds to the COSTS of the manifold.A cost which will be transferred to YOU the buyer.
What does this mean?A more expensive Manifold...a manifold which is allready expensive to make. Then you will complain : "OMGZ thats too expensive for me,I am better off buying something else".

Really?They do?See my point above....

I have done more than my fair share for this community.Please take the time to research who is who.....nobody writes more technical threads than me.That is something I take pride in.

If you want to wait till these people test this manifold with back to back dyno's then by all means wait.If you want to continue talking trash for the sake of talking trash then go right ahead.

I don't even know how to defend myself. I know who you, INA, and wizard are. I know a lot of the things you have done for the community and I'm sure I don't know the half of them. I realize how small the market for these manifolds are. It just seems like you got a bit lazy trying to prove the manifold.

What you're saying is that since the market is so small for these manifolds the customer should have to do the remaining research AFTER they purchase the product? If I owned my own company I would rather loose a little bit of profit to gain future customers. I realize you don't even have to build this manifold and you would make much more money on a different platform. That doesn't outweigh the fact that the manifold is not proven. As you stated, you and the people around you know the manifold works but I and other people don't know it works because there are no numbers.

Since the people that bought the manifold haven't posted on AZ where can I find their review of the product? I am not trying to turn this into a pissing match like it seems you are. I am merely trying to get some numbers out of this. I saw the thread where a plethora of different manifolds were tested, can this not be done again with just a single manifold? Money, money, money!

"Fuck money! Get customers"

Wizard-of-OD
02-04-2008, 04:03 PM
What you're saying is that since the market is so small for these manifolds the customer should have to do the remaining research AFTER they purchase the product?
What more research do you want guy? It has a plenum twice the size of stock,it comes with a reformed back plate for the plenum with "integrated" velocity stacks and it distributes the air evenly to all 4 cylinders.
Mike allready did the research.It does not take a rocket scientist to say that a bump in CR by half a point warrants a 50+whp gain.
Most people will pick sense from what is being said here.

To be honest I expected a thread like this from someone with a turbocharger bigger than a K03.This intake manifold should be one of the last modifications you do.Now if you can let the others have there input that would be great
Thanks.

Toyotatech
02-04-2008, 04:30 PM
I think it looks like an excellent product and if I needed one I would by one. The gains will very on the aplication. I really don't know of many people at all needing this manifold from what I have read in all my trolling these sites.

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 04:42 PM
What more research do you want guy? Flow numbers like the other 1.8T manifold thread. I've already said this so I don't see why you are asking what more I want.


To be honest I expected a thread like this from someone with a turbocharger bigger than a K03. Thanks. Well this thread didn't come from someone with something bigger than K03 so take it for what it is. If money is more important than customers then so be it. Who am I to talk? I only have a small turbocharger, I have no say.

audiFUEGO
02-04-2008, 05:18 PM
its been said but...

amen

Wizard-of-OD
02-04-2008, 05:26 PM
Flow numbers like the other 1.8T manifold thread. I've already said this so I don't see why you are asking what more I want.
If you want flow numbers then pool together the funds to make it happen like we did with the 1.8T thread....willing to front $100US towards testing the manifold?This way the cost of the manifold remains unchanged.
You want to make threads like this then be prepared to know what it takes....
Monster 007 & APR did not care what the #'s showed,they were all confident that there manifolds would produce the highest results...and guess wha,they did.
I am also confident in this design and no...

If money is more important than customers then so be it.
I do not care about the money.If it was about the money I would have charged $2200US just like Dahlback and not replied to these threads.

98a4
02-04-2008, 05:32 PM
STFU this is retarded.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3098525

Close enough.

Issam, 034, INA good rep, good products, and he's proven himself time and time again.

a4fann
02-04-2008, 05:34 PM
lol, loveT I side with you on this one.

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 05:46 PM
STFU this is retarded.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3098525

Close enough.

Issam, 034, INA good rep, good products, and he's proven himself time and time again.

I already mentioned that thread in one of my posts. Yeah close enough seeing as how the manifold in question is on that list right?

98a4
02-04-2008, 05:52 PM
Close enough that the VW guys didnt fucking bitch about it and all worked together to get testing done.
ohh and look at the OP on that thread. Your being a dick for no reason. You have no intention of buying this manifold and prob have no friends that would either. Put some more money in your car and then lets see you bitch about it as a potentinal buyer.

Its like someone with a KIA bitching about a Ferrari, everyone has a right to an opinion, not everyone has the right, or the knowledge, or the experiance to call out one of the pioneers of the industry.

Yeah i'm swinging, but your being rediculous. Be greatful that hes one of the few tuners/designers/testers that post and reply to bullshit threads like this.

And if you dont have a big port head, this whole thead is pointless.

Wizard-of-OD
02-04-2008, 05:54 PM
I already mentioned that thread in one of my posts. Yeah close enough seeing as how the manifold in question is on that list right?
[:D]....Now This is first class comedy
Did you notice who created that thread? Do you not think that Mike's manifold was based on these results knowing what works and what does not?
....thought so.

* Slits like the dahlback manifold do not work
* raised roof velocity stacks do not flow better than integrated ones
* CNC billet is much smoother than cast
* Big port does better than small port (duh)

Look you have neither:
* fronted the money to test the manifold
* bought a manifold
You did not even send me a PM pertaining to said manifold expressing your concerns.Instead of you wanted to be the forum hero and came out there and made this thread....[up] to for that but I would appreciate it if you keep your opinion to yourself.
Thats not me being cocky or arrogant.Thats me being VERY annoyed....this is almost insulting and then you wonder why people in this industry dont like developing parts.
Thanks.

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 05:59 PM
The same questions have been posed many times and you have failed to answer them. Why should I seek you out when you had every chance to answer each and every question?

98a4
02-04-2008, 06:00 PM
Know what. I'll match any money you put down to do testing IloveT and anyone else for that matter. 100% honest. Put your money where your mouth is or STFU honestly.

This is me calling YOU out. I can make a new thread if you'd like.

98a4
02-04-2008, 06:28 PM
thats what i thought

/thread

ngrover
02-04-2008, 07:28 PM
Know what. I'll match any money you put down to do testing IloveT and anyone else for that matter. 100% honest. Put your money where your mouth is or STFU honestly.

This is me calling YOU out. I can make a new thread if you'd like.

He's not asking to spend money on something he is unsure of. So he doesn't need or want to put his money where his mouth is, that's his point. After reading all the "call outs" in this thread I can only figure that what he meant to ask was "what will this manifold do for me"? And his answer will be NOTHING if he plans to run it with his current setup. The question would have been much better recieved if A) he calmed down, and B) he described right from the start what combination of mods he wished to run it with. That way you might get a ball-park estimate. How can you possibly get upset when stating a question in a way that can possibly have an infinite number of answers. In this case, the thread could have gone like this: "I have a stock car, will this help? answer: no".

317ssayzarc
02-04-2008, 07:47 PM
let turn this into a positive thread... who want to donate to see this thing tested... ill chip in $20....

anyone else?

onemoremile
02-04-2008, 08:17 PM
I'll paypal some cash. We do need to support our budding entrepreneurs. I'd love to see this tested on a 3-400whp car.

Mike's money back guarantee idea is excellent. Great way to find out what is what without risk.

The Dahlback manifold has been brought up. Another that comes to mind is the ABD transverse manifold. These were from reputable companies that new how to build great powerplants (Dahlback, at least) so the sales were based on reputation. The results weren't there. That is why this skepticism exists.

317ssayzarc
02-04-2008, 08:18 PM
I'll paypal some cash. We do need to support our budding entrepreneurs. I'd love to see this tested on a 3-400whp car.

Mike's money back guarantee idea is excellent. Great way to find out what is what without risk.

The Dahlback manifold has been brought up. Another that comes to mind is the ABD transverse manifold. These were from reputable companies that new how to build great powerplants (Dahlback, at least) so the sales were based on reputation. The results weren't there. That is why this skepticism exists.

how much from you?

onemoremile
02-04-2008, 08:24 PM
Depends on what is needed and when.

317ssayzarc
02-04-2008, 08:26 PM
ok, you want create a thread? [up]

ILoveT
02-04-2008, 08:33 PM
God damn it. I got destroyed but I can't wait to see the numbers. :)

dualaudi
02-04-2008, 08:52 PM
i hate to burst your bubble but you are not the correct person to test this manifold out. You need to be making a lot of power in which the stock intake manifold starts to become a restriction in order to see gains from an after market intake manifold like this. Secondly have you noticed it uses 8 fuel injectors not 4 and theres no way you can run 1000cc of fuel on a stock car

He's not really trying to make the point that it's the right product for him. As a whole, he would like to see numbers. Don't we all?

It looks like an awesome product with 2 fuel rails and more volume to flow, i'd love to have a gt35r and toss it in... Maybe some day I will.

bernB5
02-04-2008, 08:56 PM
God damn it. I got destroyed but I can't wait to see the numbers. :)

typical.... i'll have your numbers for you on saturday if all goes as planned.

until then, everyone drop this. It's gone far enough, especially since in the begining you stated you didn't want this thread to turn into a pile of shit like the one's that came before it./

317ssayzarc
02-04-2008, 09:02 PM
typical.... i'll have your numbers for you on saturday if all goes as planned.

until then, everyone drop this. It's gone far enough, especially since in the begining you stated you didn't want this thread to turn into a pile of shit like the one's that came before it./

whats the setup if i may ask?

AudiRacerS4
02-04-2008, 10:11 PM
He's not really trying to make the point that it's the right product for him. As a whole, he would like to see numbers. Don't we all?

It looks like an awesome product with 2 fuel rails and more volume to flow, i'd love to have a gt35r and toss it in... Maybe some day I will.

he said he wanted to be one of the people to test it...thats why i responded like i did [;)]

TighTT
02-04-2008, 10:20 PM
Before I get started, this post is addressing the new manifold from Issam.
http://80tq.com/~wiz/gallery2/d/1942-2/072.jpg



http://images22.fotki.com/v757/photos/2/232908/4682394/DSCF0144-vi.jpg?1176386485

http://images30.fotki.com/v51/photos/2/232908/896907/DSC_0098-vi.jpg?1193979139

If you guys want some numbers lets just strap a stock mani to my A4 and do a pull. Then we'll put the new manifold back on and see what we get.

A4Rollin
02-04-2008, 10:46 PM
thats some nice Fing welding if you ask me!

bernB5
02-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Wow...pretty sweet that it has an INA logo on the pic. They must be some skilled fabricators. [down] [rolleyes]

Looks shockingly similar to mine.

Honestly Adam, I usually agree with you..
But, If I'm not mistaken, the original prototype, the one on Mike Hood's A4, was put on much before yours was, or at least before any pictures of Sleepers' was released... And while I'm pretty sure of that, even so, there aren't many physical ways to make a larger, more efficient Intake Mani with the tight space in the B5..

As for my setup:

034 Stage IIc
AEB Head (Bone Stock with 2000 miles)
Stock Pistons w/ SCAT Rods
GT3076r-12 .63a/r
ATP Manifold
3" Exhaust
850cc Injectors
RMR Rail
Aeromotive FPR
044 In-Tank Pump
Precision 600hp Core w/ 2.5" piping
and a Southbend Stage IV to hold it all together

A final answer will be given tomorrow morning whether or not the testing will happen this weekend, in which case I'll put up my paypal account and any donations would be appreciated.

Conditions:
Andre (Audi4u@optonline.net) will be tuning my car on pump 93-octane around 23-25psi with everything above and a stock AEB Intake Manifold.
After tuning, I'll take my manifold off and throw the INA on and strap the car back down.
No tuning adjustments will be made, it will be a direct swap and the only change from run to run.

It's 3:21am, I'm off to bed.

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 12:33 AM
Yeah plus the fact that I had the intake manifold sitting at my house for about 6 months before putting it on and issad had even posted pics of the manifold before he even sent the manifold to me. So basicly I had the manifold in my hands about 2 years ago.

98a4
02-05-2008, 02:41 AM
I offered Issam last night to pay for a full set of dyno runs and the labor to change manifolds. I dont have a setup worth doing my own testing on but it needs done at one point. He didn't have any suitable shop cars at the moment but was checking to see if he could find a donor car.
And to be honest, I'd like to even see results on a GT28rs or full 2871 and not just 35r's.
We may not all need it but it sure as hell looks good.

We'll see.
Clean thread from here on out?

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 07:27 AM
I can talk to the guys at GIAC if they have any cars that would be willing to be used for the testing. I know they have been tunning some BT setups lately and then there is the cars that are getting the ER setup for tuning.

I have a B6 owner going GT3071r but it wont be done for some time.

TighTT
02-05-2008, 07:39 AM
Honestly Adam, I usually agree with you..
But, If I'm not mistaken, the original prototype, the one on Mike Hood's A4, was put on much before yours was, or at least before any pictures of Sleepers' was released... And while I'm pretty sure of that, even so, there aren't many physical ways to make a larger, more efficient Intake Mani with the tight space in the B5..

As for my setup:

034 Stage IIc
AEB Head (Bone Stock with 2000 miles)
Stock Pistons w/ SCAT Rods
GT3076r-12 .63a/r
ATP Manifold
3" Exhaust
850cc Injectors
RMR Rail
Aeromotive FPR
044 In-Tank Pump
Precision 600hp Core w/ 2.5" piping
and a Southbend Stage IV to hold it all together

A final answer will be given tomorrow morning whether or not the testing will happen this weekend, in which case I'll put up my paypal account and any donations would be appreciated.

Conditions:
Andre (Audi4u@optonline.net) will be tuning my car on pump 93-octane around 23-25psi with everything above and a stock AEB Intake Manifold.
After tuning, I'll take my manifold off and throw the INA on and strap the car back down.
No tuning adjustments will be made, it will be a direct swap and the only change from run to run.

It's 3:21am, I'm off to bed.

You can agree or not. Fact is I may know things about this that others dont.

TighTT
02-05-2008, 07:40 AM
Yeah plus the fact that I had the intake manifold sitting at my house for about 6 months before putting it on and issad had even posted pics of the manifold before he even sent the manifold to me. So basicly I had the manifold in my hands about 2 years ago.

The manifold in this pic is the one on your car?? I dont think so.

TQMB5
02-05-2008, 07:44 AM
question. Although i am very excited to see if there is any gain from JUST changing the manifold, i would also like to see the gain of JUST the manifold AND the tuning being changed. I may be wrong but if you have a bigger turbo that flows a lot of air, and we assume that it outflows the stock manifold, wouldn't the new manifold shift the curve and change the area under the curve? if so, i would love to see the results with just the manifold changed and the car re-tuned, tweaked to take advantage of this.

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 07:47 AM
The manifold in this pic is the one on your car?? I dont think so.

Now how could it be in the picture and on my car at the same time?[confused]


I stated that I had his first one in my hands 2 years ago, how hard was that to understand. [rolleyes]

ModifiedA4
02-05-2008, 07:53 AM
props to the OP for posting a great question. i find it really stupid that people would have issues with ANYONE asking for numbers (proof) that something works.

TQMB5
02-05-2008, 07:58 AM
i think what tightt is getting at is that the one on your car looks nothing like the one that INA just released, therefore taking away all credibilty to the statement that they could not have copied tightts manifold, now i have no idea if they copied it or not, but i can see his point.
http://www.centralvalleyspeed.com/photogallery/albums/userpics/10093/034intakemanifold.jpg
http://80tq.com/~wiz/gallery2/d/1945-2/073.jpg[/QUOTE]
http://images22.fotki.com/v757/photos/2/232908/4682394/DSCF0144-vi.jpg?1176386485

again im not saying that INA DID copy, but dont say there is NO WAY that they copied him b/c you had yours way before him

A4ringedONE8T
02-05-2008, 08:07 AM
Do we have any pictures of a completed one with a single fuel rail and a standard throttle body attached to it?

Im working on making my own but I would be happy to test one as well in the meantime. I will be off and on the dyno alot in the near future if anyone would like to see some numbers on a 3071R setup

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 08:23 AM
i think what tightt is getting at is that the one on your car looks nothing like the one that INA just released, therefore taking away all credibilty to the statement that they could not have copied tightts manifold, now i have no idea if they copied it or not, but i can see his point.

again im not saying that INA DID copy, but dont say there is NO WAY that they copied him b/c you had yours way before him

Well seeing that there is very limited space and the TB has to be in the same put in the OEM spot the IM can only really be made in a few ways. Plus you then have to take in the fact that it needs to be shaped in a way to allow equal flow to all 4 runners.


Does it really matter if it looks like adams? Just because adam has stock runners do you see me saying he copied Issams by using the stock runners? No


You dont see me telling him that he copied my engine bay by building a 2 liter, using a tube manifold and running a BAT?[:p]



question. Although i am very excited to see if there is any gain from JUST changing the manifold, i would also like to see the gain of JUST the manifold AND the tuning being changed. I may be wrong but if you have a bigger turbo that flows a lot of air, and we assume that it outflows the stock manifold, wouldn't the new manifold shift the curve and change the area under the curve? if so, i would love to see the results with just the manifold changed and the car re-tuned, tweaked to take advantage of this.


Basicly that is exactly what was done on my car. Only thing different is that I had the bottom end rebuilt with new pistons and 1mm larger intake valves, this is because the pistons/valves got damaged from valve float at 8500.

I have a before and after dyno.

Before the manifold at 32psi
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/271632psi-dyno.jpg

After the manifold at 32psi and retuned
http://mysite.verizon.net/restdnlz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/mikehood554whp.jpg.w560h707.jpg



Nice hp/tq gains but also take notice that the tq falls off much sooner and more with the stock intake manifold vs with the new intake manifold.

TQMB5
02-05-2008, 08:34 AM
actually if my memory serves me right you did say something to adam about his manifold and how he copied o34 full race manifold. but i agree there is only so many ways to double the size of the plenum and still make it fit with equal distribution to each runner.

Solaris
02-05-2008, 08:41 AM
Shouldn't torque and HP always intersect at 5252 RPM like shown in the 2nd graph?

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 08:57 AM
Shouldn't torque and HP always intersect at 5252 RPM like shown in the 2nd graph?

Yes but if you look at the 1st graph you will notice that the tq scale is not used, instead they use AFR on the right side which is why the tq scale is off since the tq graph is not using a scale at all. [:D]


So basicly they just didn't set the tq/hp to use the same scale on the left side of the graph.

Euro-Tuner
02-05-2008, 09:31 AM
when does this need to be tested? my setup should be done this spring, and I will be tuning it on a dyno, but if it needs to be done soon I wont be the guy.

setup will be:
-2.0L (83mm JE's, ABA crank, Corillo rods)
-GT3076 63a/r
-Full race manifold & down Pipe
-Milltek Exhaust
-ER FMIC
-all the other neccessities

TighTT
02-05-2008, 09:42 AM
Now how could it be in the picture and on my car at the same time?[confused]


I stated that I had his first one in my hands 2 years ago, how hard was that to understand. [rolleyes]

Um..easy. A picture is taken of the manifold. Then, later, it is installed in a car. Sometimes when I talk to you I feel like Im talking to my great aunt. [down]

TighTT
02-05-2008, 09:44 AM
i think what tightt is getting at is that the one on your car looks nothing like the one that INA just released, therefore taking away all credibilty to the statement that they could not have copied tightts manifold, now i have no idea if they copied it or not, but i can see his point.
http://www.centralvalleyspeed.com/photogallery/albums/userpics/10093/034intakemanifold.jpg
http://80tq.com/~wiz/gallery2/d/1945-2/073.jpg
http://images22.fotki.com/v757/photos/2/232908/4682394/DSCF0144-vi.jpg?1176386485

again im not saying that INA DID copy, but dont say there is NO WAY that they copied him b/c you had yours way before him[/QUOTE]


INA didnt "copy" anything. Because INA didnt build it.

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 09:47 AM
Um..easy. A picture is taken of the manifold. Then, later, it is installed in a car. Sometimes when I talk to you I feel like Im talking to my great aunt. [down]

Now why would issam post a "NEW" picture of a manifold that hasn't been in his hands for over 2 years? [confused]

You dont "talk" to me at all, you type. You do know the difference right?[rolleyes]

bernB5
02-05-2008, 10:09 AM
You guys are all acting ridiculous.
If sleepers felt they were copied, I'm sure they'd do something about it.
INA, 034, Boostfactory have ALL brought more to the vw/audi 1.8t community than sleepers has. All new products, all advancements to help us make big power and get the most out of this engine.
On the other hand, we have no interior pics of either manifold, there's no evidence that the same velocity stacks were used or even the height of them in the manifold... There's so many possibilites..
Hopefully Issam will get the manifold out and we can all be happy.

317ssayzarc
02-05-2008, 10:37 AM
You guys are all acting ridiculous.
If sleepers felt they were copied, I'm sure they'd do something about it.
INA, 034, Boostfactory have ALL brought more to the vw/audi 1.8t community than sleepers has. All new products, all advancements to help us make big power and get the most out of this engine.
On the other hand, we have no interior pics of either manifold, there's no evidence that the same velocity stacks were used or even the height of them in the manifold... There's so many possibilites..
Hopefully Issam will get the manifold out and we can all be happy.

amen to that [up]

looking foward to the testing, i wish i could volunteer but i still have 2 weeks...
im positive these numbers will be juicy

bernB5
02-05-2008, 10:43 AM
I hope so! Still trying to get in touch with Issam to see if we can get the manifold here in time.
Shooting for around 400whp with the stock mani, so it should definitely be interesting to see the gains :)

Poopie
02-05-2008, 10:51 AM
This is dumb. When my car is back together and running healthy, I'll front the cash for the mani if satisfaction is guaranteed or money back. Swapping out a manifold is like 30 mins of work. Mikes car is a monster, and I would consider my car a typical car people would own and benefit from this turbo.

Poopie
02-05-2008, 10:56 AM
I'll definantly spend 900 bucks if 50whp is promised or money back. When my car is up and running again and issam can do a satisfaction guarenteed or money back deal then I'm down. I'll pay for a dyno session as well.

98a4
02-05-2008, 11:05 AM
50whp isnt what anyone is claiming or should be expecting.

AudiA4_20T
02-05-2008, 11:13 AM
Hey Issam, I find it funny that you cant spend $150 on testing this thing. Who actually makes these for you? Im curious

Don Supreme
02-05-2008, 11:21 AM
Hey Issam, I find it curious that you cant spend $150 on testing this thing. Who actually makes these for you? Im curious

...............[eek]............

ILoveT
02-05-2008, 11:34 AM
Hey Issam, I find it curious that you cant spend $150 on testing this thing.

That is what I have been fucking saying!!!

TQMB5
02-05-2008, 11:54 AM
I'll definantly spend 900 bucks if 50whp is promised or money back. When my car is up and running again and issam can do a satisfaction guarenteed or money back deal then I'm down. I'll pay for a dyno session as well.

2nd that if it does i am slapping it in before i get tuned!

98a4
02-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Its more then 150$ testing, I offered to pay that to him yesterday with no intent on buying the manifold. One single dyno run and you would all still bitch about detailed flow rates and differnt applications. Not just a before, after dyno run (which is going to happen shortly)

mike-2ptzero
02-05-2008, 12:00 PM
That is what I have been fucking saying!!!

It is more then just money. First you have to have a car that is making power in the range people want, then you have to have the time to spend at the dyno all day since it is not going to be just a 30 minute test.

bernB5
02-05-2008, 12:02 PM
I don't understand why this keeps going.. you guys are some of the most impatient people.
What exactly does everyone want? I spoke to Issam last night, it was planned that I'd be doing the testing this weekend.. I haven't gotten in touch with him today but this should still work out if he can ship it out in time.
This thread should just be locked until then, when we'll finally have some solid info.
I don't have a flowbench, so that's out of the question.
As for someone who said they wanted me to put the manifold on AND tune the car for it afterwards, that's probably not going to happen, nor does it really need to, as long as the gains are significant.

ModifiedA4
02-05-2008, 12:24 PM
usually when you 'design' something you at least do some analysis first, then testing, then release it to the public.

when you release a half finished product you get threads like this.

audisnapr
02-05-2008, 12:31 PM
this thread could have been much shorter if it went something like this.

question: where are all the numbers, flow charts, etc to back up this new mani?

answer: we don't have any. we would like to eventually get some, but at this point we just can't afford it. We know it makes power based on one person's experience, but it's just not in the budget to do it right now; we'll keep you posted. In the meantime, if anyone wants to buy one and try for themselves, we can talk about a guarantee privately.

^^^see how much nicer that sounds?

Euro-Tuner
02-05-2008, 12:46 PM
that is much nicer, much more of a pleasant tone than the rest of the thread

317ssayzarc
02-05-2008, 01:06 PM
this thread could have been much shorter if it went something like this.

question: where are all the numbers, flow charts, etc to back up this new mani?

answer: we don't have any. we would like to eventually get some, but at this point we just can't afford it. We know it makes power based on one person's experience, but it's just not in the budget to do it right now; we'll keep you posted. In the meantime, if anyone wants to buy one and try for themselves, we can talk about a guarantee privately.

^^^see how much nicer that sounds?


i absolutely agree... there were two things that prevented that...

1) the original post was very negative and extremely harsh
2) this issue was posted for everyone to jump on a bandwagon and bash the product, this should have been done privately...

i cant believe this entire thread... it really makes me want to sell my audi [=(]

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 01:07 PM
I had no idea you were such a diplomat. Well done. [;)][up]


this thread could have been much shorter if it went something like this.

question: where are all the numbers, flow charts, etc to back up this new mani?

answer: we don't have any. we would like to eventually get some, but at this point we just can't afford it. We know it makes power based on one person's experience, but it's just not in the budget to do it right now; we'll keep you posted. In the meantime, if anyone wants to buy one and try for themselves, we can talk about a guarantee privately.

^^^see how much nicer that sounds?

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 01:12 PM
Whether Sleepers or INA came up with the design first doesn't really matter. They are both out there and both look good. Any potential issues are between the two companies involved. If they don't care then why should we?

This and the Torsen mod thread are what this forum should be all about. The community is finally acting like one. Mad props all around yo.

I know they present a hurdle and look like they aren't helping but naysayers are important. Someone has to play devil's advocate.

ILoveT
02-05-2008, 01:27 PM
i absolutely agree... there were two things that prevented that...

1) the original post was very negative and extremely harsh
2) this issue was posted for everyone to jump on a bandwagon and bash the product, this should have been done privately...

i cant believe this entire thread... it really makes me want to sell my audi [=(]

My original post was really harsh. The reason being; these questions had been asked so many times before and Issam and everyone else associated pussyfooted around the answers.

The issue was not for everyone to jump on a bandwagon. I hardly expected anyone to agree with me. I am a new member here and have so pull what so ever due to my lack of experience with Audis and modding them. I guess this all started the wrong way.

I apologize to Issam for calling him out. For some reason this manifold and all the shit surrounding it made me angry so I vented. There could have been another way to deal with it but I didn't go that route. It is what it is. At least some good has come out of this. Answers are finally appearing and everyone is helping out. [up]

Mike(y) <-- That's my name [:)]

audisnapr
02-05-2008, 01:30 PM
I know they present a hurdle and look like they aren't helping but naysayers are important. Someone has to play devil's advocate.

true, but I expect and hope that the shops and individuals involved in the making of these parts would a bit more PC when posting a response to these naysayers.

I for one would never order anything from someone who conducts them self as some do on this board - no matter how good the prices might be - as it generally reflect the type of service I will probably get. They most likely could care less and I'm sure my lack of business won't impact them in anyway, but over time, enough ppl who don't order do make an impact.

317ssayzarc
02-05-2008, 01:31 PM
My original post was really harsh. The reason being; these questions had been asked so many times before and Issam and everyone else associated pussyfooted around the answers.

The issue was not for everyone to jump on a bandwagon. I hardly expected anyone to agree with me. I am a new member here and have so pull what so ever due to my lack of experience with Audis and modding them. I guess this all started the wrong way.

I apologize to Issam for calling him out. For some reason this manifold and all the shit surrounding it made me angry so I vented. There could have been another way to deal with it but I didn't go that route. It is what it is. At least some good has come out of this. Answers are finally appearing and everyone is helping out. [up]

Mike(y) <-- That's my name [:)]


well mike, if you or anyone else has questions about INA products, please pm me... i will personally do what i can to get you answers... as you can see, shit quickly gets out of hand out in public... i wish it wasnt that way [mad]...

Wizard-of-OD
02-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Hey Issam, I find it funny that you cant spend $150 on testing this thing.
I find it funny that you dont know what it takes to develop parts.


Who actually makes these for you? Im curious
Are you kidding me?None of your Fing business....hows that for a reply?
The manifold is available to the market through me.You want 1 send me a pm,you dont want 1 then as stated before keep your opinion to yourself or buy Dahlback's.

Onemoremile lock this up,this thread has more trash than the Michigan state dump.
When bernb5 gets the manifold and dyno's it then results will get posted for people that probably would not even buy it.

ModifiedA4
02-05-2008, 02:18 PM
wow.

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 02:28 PM
We send our trash to Canada.

The thread started negative but ended positive. Members are willing to pay to help you develop parts. They've also said that the only real problem was the way things were presented. A lot of interest has been generated in the manifold which can't be anything but good for it's sales. This thread has done much more good for you than harm.

Originally people just wanted to know what the potential gains are. They weren't given any answers and were told to just buy it. Read Audisnapr's post above for a synopsis. Now that everything is out in the open it just isn't that big a deal anymore. If everything with Bern works out then results should be up soon.

"None of your Fing business" is the attitude that started this mess. If you had handled it with some tact and said something like "I do it myself" or "Half your car was outsourced, I found the best fabricators around to help me out" things would go much more smoothly. You are entering into a business venture which means you'll need customers. Customers are people and should be treated with respect. I'm astonished by your responses since the only times I've ever seen you talk down to someone is when they are interested in your parts. And yes, even the negative people are interested - otherwise they wouldn't care enough to bother posting.

Wizard-of-OD
02-05-2008, 02:39 PM
We send our trash to Canada.
Wrong...other way around.
GTA sends 7Million Metric tons of Garbage to Michigan state every year.[:)]


The thread started negative but ended positive. Members are willing to pay to help you develop parts. They've also said that the only real problem was the way things were presented.A lot of interest has been generated in the manifold which can't be anything but good for it's sales. This thread has done much more good for you than harm.
I see it differently.Why do I see it differently?
Because the guys who are willing to pay to help in the development of this manifold would have done it anyway as we all converse on a regular basis whether its about Audi's or something else.
Anyone reading this thread knows who puts there money where there mouth is,I dont need to do this...


Originally people just wanted to know what the potential gains are.
I allready posted a reply and said I would keep it concervative @ 15-23hp increase on a GT3071R+ equipped vehicle.If you didnt make that then I would take back your manifold.


"None of your Fing business" is the attitude that started this mess.
Fine,why dont we all go ask APR,STASIS,VF,Kinetic,etc etc etc where they get there stuff from.What kind of question is that?The reply was well warranted,

otherwise they wouldn't care enough to bother posting
[:D]...Seeing that reply just made me smile,especially coming from the forum moderator.Now if you dont mind I am asking that this thread locked up until further notice.
Thanks.

Groove1797
02-05-2008, 03:20 PM
Nice editing
I think your out east and I bet if you called up a local university with an engineering dept they will let you benchflow or use fluid motion to test flow characteristics.

Wizard-of-OD
02-05-2008, 03:27 PM
Nice editing
I think your out east and I bet if you called up a local university with an engineering dept they will let you benchflow or use fluid motion to test flow characteristics.
I have considered this actually but for right now I want to get the manifold on the Dyno asap.

solowb5
02-05-2008, 03:32 PM
There was a company/shop that had designed a manifold that looks damn near both. It was installed on a BAT setup. I'm sure people don't remember bc it was probally a year ago when it was posted.

bernB5
02-05-2008, 03:37 PM
OK EVERYONE! I hope we all got the negativity off our chest and from here-on out, there will be nothing but positive information, proof of gains, and most importantly, answers..
I just got off with Issam and we are going through with the test. As long as shipping works out, I will have dyno sheets for you on Saturday or Sunday.
I will be dynoing at IMP in Clifton NJ on saturday around 10am if anyone is local.

For all of you who said you were willing to help out here, now is your chance.. I'm a Senior in college so this isn't cheap to begin with.

Dyno time is $125 for an hour, just to put things into perspective.
My paypal is: Alex.M.Bernstein@gmail.com

and a picture of the car this is going on
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/bernie18t3t4/front.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/bernie18t3t4/IMG_4941.jpg

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 03:37 PM
Wrong...other way around.
GTA sends 7Million Metric tons of Garbage to Michigan state every year.[:)]


I see it differently.Why do I see it differently?
Because the guys who are willing to pay to help in the development of this manifold would have done it anyway as we all converse on a regular basis whether its about Audi's or something else.
Anyone reading this thread knows who puts there money where there mouth is,I dont need to do this...

I allready posted a reply and said I would keep it concervative @ 15-23hp increase on a GT3071R+ equipped vehicle.If you didnt make that then I would take back your manifold.

Fine,why dont we all go ask APR,STASIS,VF,Kinetic,etc etc etc where they get there stuff from.What kind of question is that?The reply was well warranted,

[:D]...Seeing that reply just made me smile,especially coming from the forum moderator.Now if you dont mind I am asking that this thread locked up until further notice.
Thanks.

We take theirs because we send ours there. It has to do with what each of our laws deem as acceptable. Not that it matters in any way whatsoever to someone that doesn't live here. I'm a part of www.wmeac.org and my financial planning partner was volunteer of the year. This is not an argument you want to pursue with me.

You have treated your potential customers like crap. Your reply was tactless BS. Yes, I'm one of four forum moderators but primarily I'm a potential customer with a built engine and am looking for a turbo setup and all supporting mods. I was on the fence about who to go with for an upgraded IM but you've definitely pushed me off to one side. My offer to help cover testing is rescinded. I want nothing to do with this. You could learn a great deal from the business practices of Mike Kim, the Pottermans, and countless others.

APR doesn't have to make excuses for their lack of business acumen. They have an incredible development process that includes an abundance of testing. That is how engineers do it. I've explained the client building process to you in PM but I guess it didn't sink in. The customers come first. Without them you have no business. No respectable businessman would ever forget that. Do you think Stasis sells products without testing them first? They have built their business around testing and solid development work. Aren't they based at a racetrack?

I have received complaints via PM about you, your tactics, and your attitude. Trust me that they are worse than the original post in this thread. I'm leaving this thread open. Members have concerns and this is an open forum to air them in. Some are voiced with more respect than others but that goes for both sides.


You cannot request a thread to be closed unless you started it. I've never seen a thread like this but I do know what started it. It wasn't me.
Got that advertiser status yet?

bernB5
02-05-2008, 03:54 PM
so much for keeping things positive... should I start a new thread or does nobody want to see this tested anymore now that all the arguing is over?

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 03:59 PM
No kidding. I thought we had turned that corner back at posts 77 and 81.

Poopie
02-05-2008, 04:02 PM
OK EVERYONE! I hope we all got the negativity off our chest and from here-on out, there will be nothing but positive information, proof of gains, and most importantly, answers..
I just got off with Issam and we are going through with the test. As long as shipping works out, I will have dyno sheets for you on Saturday or Sunday.
I will be dynoing at IMP in Clifton NJ on saturday around 10am if anyone is local.

For all of you who said you were willing to help out here, now is your chance.. I'm a Senior in college so this isn't cheap to begin with.

Dyno time is $125 for an hour, just to put things into perspective.
My paypal is: Alex.M.Bernstein@gmail.com

and a picture of the car this is going on
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/bernie18t3t4/front.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/bernie18t3t4/IMG_4941.jpg


You car looks awesome. I'll be looking forward to the Dyno. How far away is it from Philly? If I'm not working on my car maybe I'll swing by

ModifiedA4
02-05-2008, 06:01 PM
no doubt that is a good looking engine bay. clean, and with parts in order. [:)]

98a4
02-05-2008, 06:07 PM
40$ which is 27% of it was just sent to you. If you need more let me know. I'm sick of the bullshit so I will donate 1.5 hours of work to this, 1LoveT i expect you to donate some, this is your "call out"

For 40$ i expect details on your setup :)

Wizard-of-OD
02-05-2008, 06:34 PM
Yes, I'm one of four forum moderators but primarily I'm a potential customer with a built engine and am looking for a turbo setup and all supporting mods. I was on the fence about who to go with for an upgraded IM but you've definitely pushed me off to one side. My offer to help cover testing is rescinded. I want nothing to do with this.
I would appreciate it if you would reconsider.I do apologise for my behaviour before.The past 3 days on AZ have been nothing but fustrating and after a while it takes a tole on you....If you recall I posted up the intake manifold in my own thread.
I would still love to have you run one of my kits and as for advertiser status,I sent a message to Anthony over a month ago with no reply so if you can look into that for me that would be great.


have received complaints via PM about you, your tactics, and your attitude.
Must be getting popular! :D
As for the Michigan Ontario Dump ordeal,I am a Civil Engineer and this is all I did for an entire year and I just couldnt find any data showing me that Michigan actually dumps in Ontario.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=michigan+dumps+garbage+in+ontario&spell=1

if you can link me to any data that would be great.
Thanks

bernB5
02-05-2008, 07:50 PM
here is the new and improved thread everyone..
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2232899#post2232899

WhiteG60
02-05-2008, 08:00 PM
I think most of the people in this thread are talking out their behinds. IloveT... you are not the target market, your car is 100% stock, why do you even care one way or another? Second, how many of you buy pullies? They offer no real tangible gains but people buy them none the less. If you think that the design is copied, think again. How many ways can you make a plenum based off the same runners, and the outlet in the same spot? There aren't too many. Look at the 007 manifold plenum and then look at the Full-Race intake manifold plenum. Did one copy the other? Certainly not but they look similar enough that you could think that. Also, if you think a bigger plenum doesn't add power, you're simply out and out retarded. Once you hit a certain flow from a turbo, the stock plenum is just simply too small. Its not up for interpretation, its a simple fact. Theres math you can do to prove it. Now, how much GAIN you'll see will vary wildly, just like any mod. Some people dyno'd 10+whp from a CAI, others lost power, some gain nothing. Theres too many factors involved, on top of, maybe you won't make any more PEAK hp,but under the curve will almost definitely change. You guys seem very simple minded and all seem to want someone to tell you exactly what to do to your cars. Try stuff yourself, experiment, etc. These cars aren't investments, they're a hobby. Hobbies cost money. Just be glad that you have something measurable to show from the money you spend. You think a golfer that buys $10,000 golf clubs really lowers his handicap at all? You can at least get a dyno sheet or time slip with gains or losses to quantify your purchase. I'm doing LOTS of shit that has never been done in a VW before, that theoretically and fundamentally should work fantastic. Will it? Can't tell you till I'm done. Do you think i'm gonna cry the blues if it doesn't? Nope. But you know what? If it does theres gonna be people lining up to copy my work.

In summation, you people are cry babies and need to learn how the real world works. This stuff isn't gonna be spoon fed to you like you seem to want it to be. If you don't understand how this all works, take your car to a shop that does and pay them the big bucks to make your car make power for you and leave the fabbing and product development to the people that know what they're doing. Stop thinking the status quo is the only way to do things. This thread seems like VWVortex and their list of 'Vortex Approved Mods' that if you do anything other than that, you're an a-hole and doing it wrong.

317ssayzarc
02-05-2008, 08:19 PM
hey ian its nice to have your over here!

and yes unfortunetly, the attitude around here is becoming much like the tex...

btw even though he may be new here, whiteg60 is very respected by most over on the vortex... hes done all the things that are cutting edge in the audi scene and beyond... hes not just someone new...

_audible_
02-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Bottom line is manifolds don't mean shit without flowtests. It doesn't matter who designed what, when and where. If it's never been tested, it isn't a proven item. Now with that being said it does not mean that it won't perform. Circumstances will affect how it performs and how it doesn't. Some of them you are in control of via your vehicle modifications and some you are not in control of, such as design. While the seller of this product needs some better business sense, at the same time he doesn't. He's not doing what he's doing to solely make a profit like many other manufactuers. There are a limited amount of aftermarket suppliers worth a shit much less a dollar for our cars, but you can be damn sure there are many who are NOT worth a shit and are willing to take all of your money. Wizard is an enthusiast. He's not out for your money. Take it or leave it. Or better yet, go get your rescources together and use you extra time to try and develop products to better our scene...

Making true progress with our cars comes from commitment on both sides of the fence. From fabriction to enthusiasm. We have to do for ourselves out here because no one is doing it for us. We're not driving Hondas here. Dubbing is grass roots, always has been, always will be. If you don't get that, you're in the wrong place, but if you choose to stay, many will be happy to help you learn. Goodtimes.

Sorry, I'm drunk. :p

onemoremile
02-05-2008, 09:32 PM
I sent a message to Anthony over a month ago with no reply so if you can look into that for me that would be great.



Send an advertising inquiry email to sales@audizine.com.

WhiteG60
02-06-2008, 06:47 AM
Bottom line is manifolds don't mean shit without flowtests. It doesn't matter who designed what, when and where. If it's never been tested, it isn't a proven item. Now with that being said it does not mean that it won't perform. Circumstances will affect how it performs and how it doesn't. Some of them you are in control of via your vehicle modifications and some you are not in control of, such as design. While the seller of this product needs some better business sense, at the same time he doesn't. He's not doing what he's doing to solely make a profit like many other manufactuers. There are a limited amount of aftermarket suppliers worth a shit much less a dollar for our cars, but you can be damn sure there are many who are NOT worth a shit and are willing to take all of your money. Wizard is an enthusiast. He's not out for your money. Take it or leave it. Or better yet, go get your rescources together and use you extra time to try and develop products to better our scene...

Making true progress with our cars comes from commitment on both sides of the fence. From fabriction to enthusiasm. We have to do for ourselves out here because no one is doing it for us. We're not driving Hondas here. Dubbing is grass roots, always has been, always will be. If you don't get that, you're in the wrong place, but if you choose to stay, many will be happy to help you learn. Goodtimes.

Sorry, I'm drunk. :p

I agree with you on some points and disagree on others. While flow numbers are helpful in someways, they are not the be all and end all of the performance of a manifold. Some (read: most) people don't know what to make of numbers, only that higher is better. Theres manifolds that flow individual runners better than others, but overall flow is lower, theres ones that have lower individual flow but a higher overall, maybe one flows the best but doesn't have ideal injector placement and the fuel isn't atomized into the chamber properly causing a bad idle, or just not-optimal fuel burn. Theres so many variables in a manifold that the average, or hell even the 'expert' tuner doesn't know about.
A dyno is trash too because of all the other variables. Turbo, manifold, intercooler, injectors, software, head work, cams. Maybe someone with a GT3540 makes an extra 75whp peak from an intake manifold, but someone with a 2871 only picks up 8whp peak. You could have a different manifold that makes 30whp on the 2871, but only pics up 31 on the same GT3540 for some reason or another. Not everyone is going to get the same results.

I can't speak for Issam, but I'd venture to guess that a lot of the people in this thread that are whining and complaining already, if it was me selling you stuff, I wouldn't WANT to sell you a manifold because of all the support time and costs and bashing and bitching that would get done publicly isn't worth the $75-100 I would make on the product. I'm sure a lot of you people have worked retail at some point in your life. Remember the people that would come in to do nothing but bitch and complain about stuff? Yeah thats who you've turned into. No one wants to try and figure stuff out for themselves anymore. I know you people say 'oh i spent $900 i shouldn't have to figure anything out', but thats simply not true. This isn't an exact science we're dealing with here. we're dealing with human created parts, all of which are 100% custom builds using human created software etc etc etc. Not everything is going to be 100% bolt on and 100% predictable in what will happen based on so many variables. I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but you can take 10 1.8T's, and do the same 10 mods to each of them, and 3 will run awesome and make crazy power, 4 will run like shit, and 3 will show no difference whatsoever. Its just the nature of these motors, they're very fickle. Its a fact of life with a modern engine managment that no 2 will run the same.

ModifiedA4
02-06-2008, 07:01 AM
I can't speak for Issam, but I'd venture to guess that a lot of the people in this thread that are whining and complaining already, if it was me selling you stuff, I wouldn't WANT to sell you a manifold because of all the support time and costs and bashing and bitching that would get done publicly isn't worth the $75-100 I would make on the product. I'm sure a lot of you people have worked retail at some point in your life. Remember the people that would come in to do nothing but bitch and complain about stuff? Yeah thats who you've turned into. No one wants to try and figure stuff out for themselves anymore. I know you people say 'oh i spent $900 i shouldn't have to figure anything out', but thats simply not true. This isn't an exact science we're dealing with here. we're dealing with human created parts, all of which are 100% custom builds using human created software etc etc etc. Not everything is going to be 100% bolt on and 100% predictable in what will happen based on so many variables. I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but you can take 10 1.8T's, and do the same 10 mods to each of them, and 3 will run awesome and make crazy power, 4 will run like shit, and 3 will show no difference whatsoever. Its just the nature of these motors, they're very fickle. Its a fact of life with a modern engine managment that no 2 will run the same.

thats the biggest pile of crap ive ever read. customers have the right to ask if said product is WORTH the money to spend on it. and if a manufacturer cant state that, prove it, or flat out convince, then he wont have any sales. thats how a marketplace WORKS.

98a4
02-06-2008, 07:13 AM
thats the biggest pile of crap ive ever read. customers have the right to ask if said product is WORTH the money to spend on it. and if a manufacturer cant state that, prove it, or flat out convince, then he wont have any sales. thats how a marketplace WORKS.

False.
Thats how a normal market place is. When selling a product with an extremely low demand that cost a considerable amout of money that concept goes out the window. The people this was designed for have spent money on other questionable items I promise you. Who questions the flow rates of FMIC Cores, exhaust manifolds, DV/BPV, ect? Customers do have the right, but the supplier is not required to jump up and down and spend money to please people that will never, ever, be a potentional buyer. Why prove something to those people when he is selling them to the people that actually put the money forward based on simple engineering concepts and Issam's rep alone.
Question it all or question nothing. Don't bash someone or a product just because you had a bad day. Everyone has an opinion, thats fine, but currently Mike Hood is the only one who has experiance, therefor making his opinion meaning full.

Take Issam's previous history and rep into play and nobody should doubt the product. He said he would gladly do the test, but it will be reflected into the manifolds cost.

When buying a large plenum intake manifold, half of it is for asthetics and half is performance generally.

audisnapr
02-06-2008, 07:18 AM
Ian - although I appreciate your take on all this BS and especially the tone in which you present your argument, I feel compelled to point out a few things that I think you are overlooking. I've seen you around the 'tex and am aware of a few of the things you've been able to accomplish on your own, but I think it's important to remember, not everyone on these boards can do for themselves as easily as others. We are after all talking about a fully custom intake manifold, machined, welded, built to certain specifications, etc, etc. To suggest that ppl need to stop whining and do for themselves is asking way more than most are capable of doing. Sure, the whining needs to stop and ppl need to be a bit more understanding of Issam's position, but to try and put all the work on the consumer is just not gonna happen.

when a manufacturer designs and sells a new wheel for the consumer market - we as the consumer expect what? we expect that its round, will hold air with a tire and is durable enough for our needs. They don't have to show us impact testing, videos of it rolling to prove that its true and round, we just expect that is does. However, when a manufacturer designs a new wheels that is different from the rest, say it's square, we as the the consumer would absolutely expect some testing and some data to prove to us that it does in fact do what it was intended to do.

I realize the above example is completely absurd, but understand that as the consumer, it's our right and our duty to ask questions about a new product that is different from what we are accustomed to seeing. How stupid would it be of us to just sit back as say, "wow, that square wheel must work since company X says it does." It's no less stupid for us to sit back and say, "wow, if Mike Hood and Issam say it works, then it must work."

If we were all able to do for ourselves; run to our shops and weld up a new mani based on our own extensive design analysis, where would that leave the manufacturers and tuners who do this for a living? One without the other is useless. If we could all do for ourselves, we would all be our own tuners and the shops would fall on their faces.

I appreciate everything Wizard has brought to the 1.8T world. I've watched him grow from just a well informed owner years and years ago, to someone who is sharing, producing and generally giving back to the community. But I would expect as a consumer, that since I can't do for myself (in this particular situation) that someone show me that this square wheel works.

WhiteG60
02-06-2008, 07:21 AM
thats the biggest pile of crap ive ever read. customers have the right to ask if said product is WORTH the money to spend on it. and if a manufacturer cant state that, prove it, or flat out convince, then he wont have any sales. thats how a marketplace WORKS.

Not true. Take Apple Computer for example. They give you all kinds of quantified numbers as to why their computers are faster than a comparable PC running windows, when in reality, it may or may not be. They are only faster in certain scenarios, just like an intake manifold will only make you power in certain controlled scenarios. If you just take one and bolt it onto a stock turbo car like IloveT seems to want to do, of course its not gonna make any more power. If you want Issam to give you some bullshit numbers to support his argument, I'm sure he can. In the end, in the real world, those numbers don't mean anything. You can make a thread of truth into an entire argument and ignore the opposite side of things. Thats how politics works.

ModifiedA4
02-06-2008, 07:25 AM
When selling a product with an extremely low demand that cost a considerable amout of money that concept goes out the window. .

Sounds like a friggin copout. There's a "INA" logo on the manifold, and from what I can tell, they have dozens of products that they spam all over Vortex.
http://forums.fourtitude.com/zeroforum?id=26&days=14&page=2

So they're not making any money on those?

If they can't afford to front a few $100 to test their new product, what does that say about the rest of their products? Not tested I assume. scarey.

WhiteG60
02-06-2008, 07:27 AM
Ian - although I appreciate your take on all this BS and especially the tone in which you present your argument, I feel compelled to point out a few things that I think you are overlooking. I've seen you around the 'tex and am aware of a few of the things you've been able to accomplish on your own, but I think it's important to remember, not everyone on these boards can do for themselves as easily as others. We are after all talking about a fully custom intake manifold, machined, welded, built to certain specifications, etc, etc. To suggest that ppl need to stop whining and do for themselves is asking way more than most are capable of doing. Sure, the whining needs to stop and ppl need to be a bit more understanding of Issam's position, but to try and put all the work on the consumer is just not gonna happen.



I'm not suggesting people build the manifolds themselves. I was kind of unclear on that. What I am suggesting is that when someone gives you a part, and it doesn't fit exactly right or it takes a little bit of finagling to get it to fit, do it. These people seem to have no ability to think outside the box, conceptualize something mechanically or tangentially in their head, and then actually make it work.

In the end, I'm only suggesting that these people garner a true understanding of why they should do these things to their motors and why things do and don't work. Get yourself educated before spouting off is all I'm suggesting to these people.

WhiteG60
02-06-2008, 07:29 AM
Sounds like a friggin copout. There's a "INA" logo on the manifold, and from what I can tell, they have dozens of products that they spam all over Vortex.
http://forums.fourtitude.com/zeroforum?id=26&days=14&page=2

So they're not making any money on those?

If they can't afford to front a few $100 to test their new product, what does that say about the rest of their products? Not tested I assume. scarey.

It doesn't cost anything to test an engine mount other than the cost of the mount itself. Theres no subjectiveness to wether a mount is stiffer than stock or not. It either is or it isn't. Theres no power gains, etc etc.

Also, most of the stuff Issam sells is rare OEM stuff. Do you need an AGN valve cover tested? Do you need an ABF alternator bracket tested?

audisnapr
02-06-2008, 07:30 AM
Who questions the flow rates of FMIC Cores, exhaust manifolds, DV/BPV, ect?

interesting... I think many of us do. Take for example when companies like TyrolSport put out their side mount replacement. Everyone expected flow rates and temp. readings. It was the ideal square wheel example that we all questioned. Once it was proven to yield better results, we were more inclined to believe that it would in fact work.

Same goes with exhaust manifolds. It seems at least weekly, there is a thread on here asking for numbers to back up exhaust manifold designs. Some clearly work better than others and now that more and more are hitting the market, we as the consumer are more likely to believe in each new version simply because the early ones were proven to work.

The same will go with the intake mani. After these first few are proven to perform, we as the consumer will be less likely to question each new version from the same or new companies that put them out.

That is how this industry works.

98a4
02-06-2008, 07:49 AM
But in testing exhaust manifolds its one car to another.

Show me the logs of much better Full-Race's flows over ATP's log. You cant compare stock to either since there will be larger turbo strapped. Or the logs of Racetech FMIC vs EvoMS (besides IAT)

Trylo SMIC is differnt, there was always debate about SMIC and FMIC, so there was intrest in that when it was released. What diverter responds quciker and moves air faster? Hyperboost, forge, apr?
Lets see it

Just because someone slap on 400hp core, wheres the data and testing behind it. Issam could have made up numbers easily... he didnt.

Copout?
He tested it, he's sold 6 and NO he has not made a dime off of the manifold yet. R&D, time, testing, clearances, ect. Design is expensive.

Bottom line is, within 2 weeks or so. We will have a 2nd dyno test ontop of Mikes, this time on a reasonable, streetable application.

I bring back the point of CAI on mk4's.... smoothed stock air box was proven to flow better, yet theres 2 stock airboxes for every 15 CAI out there. Most people are not out to pinch every HP out of their car. Does anyone here really think this manifold will not make any gains?

INA Intake Manifold
900$/5hp = 180$/1hp
900$/10hp = 90$/1hp
900$/15hp = 60$/1hp
900$/20hp = 45$/1hp
900$/25hp = 36$/1hp
900$/30hp = 30$/1hp

APR Exhaust 900$, maybe 10hp

900$/10hp = 90$/1hp

Yet hundreds have sold

EVOMS intake 320$ 5hp

320$/5hp - 65$/hp

KO4/Software/ect 2000$ + 30hp

2000$/30hp = 67$/1hp


Most people are concerned about $ - HP ratio, if it cost alot and gives alot thats fine, if it cost alot and dosnt give alot it better offer something else.

ModifiedA4
02-06-2008, 01:44 PM
now that the pedigree of the manifold is known
(http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2234711&postcount=22) some of the posts in this thread are pretty funny.[rolleyes]

sean1.8t
02-06-2008, 04:05 PM
i think this is all rediculous. to start off

By: Onemoremile

APR doesn't have to make excuses for their lack of business acumen. They have an incredible development process that includes an abundance of testing. That is how engineers do it. I've explained the client building process to you in PM but I guess it didn't sink in. The customers come first. Without them you have no business. No respectable businessman would ever forget that. Do you think Stasis sells products without testing them first? They have built their business around testing and solid development work. Aren't they based at a racetrack?

i think its funny that you would compare INA(Wiz) to APR. COMPLETELY opposite aspects of the market. APR is a multy million dollar a year grossing company. their facility is larger than the university that i live next to. they offer a lot of products but nothing like this at all. and nothing really new other than the R1. it would be pretty easy for them to hop on this IM boat. but they don't. cause they don't care. other than promoting sales they have, they don't even care to post here. or talk to the actual customers. same with many of the advertising companies on here and other boards..

INA is a smaller starting up business that from what i can tell, does not have all the money in the world for testing products. but you can tell that the reasearch beforehand was done, that is honestly the most important part to me. a company that cares enough to risk their financial situation to make product[s] that we want and NEED, have needed for years. if i was wiz, i would have reacted the same way. for people that will NEVER even consider buying a product to talk direct shit to him, he handled himself pretty well IMO. the "potential customers" that really know what's going on, will not even care what goes on in the forums or what kind of pre customer service that is being offered. for those that know a tuner's history, and know the product, will know that when that tuner has your money they have your respect and will give you the same back..

hell, i've seen good customer service from APR and other companies the like. but have i ever bought a product from them? no. and do i plan on it ever? no

i appreciate a company that tries to take care of their real customers. not the one that jacks up pricing to rediculous amounts to get an extra dollar and doesn't care to improve their products and spend a little money for new ones that we have all needed for years

sean1.8t
02-06-2008, 04:08 PM
now that the pedigree of the manifold is known
(http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2234711&postcount=22) some of the posts in this thread are pretty funny.[rolleyes]

yes, Wiz finally stated where he was sourcing the manifolds from. way to go guys. now Sleepers will be baraged with inquires that im sure they did not want. they obviously have enough going on without this.. even Adam(tightt) didn't even know about this for a reason and he's the one that has the true prototype. there is a reason that MOST companies outsource products. and there is even a better reason why those companies don't want to be known

onemoremile
02-06-2008, 04:23 PM
Actually, he made the comparison. APR was a bunch of college kids at one time. We all start somewhere. Bill Gates was once a college dropout, a statistic. Regardless, that conversation is old news, water under the bridge. It is a new day and we've both moved past that. Please do the same.


Fine,why dont we all go ask APR,STASIS,VF,Kinetic,etc etc etc where they get there stuff from.What kind of question is that?The reply was well warranted,



These (http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/intakemanifolds/dsm.htm)are similar to the results we should see from a properly designed, engineered, and manufactured intake manifold. Take a look at the dyno graphs and you'll see that they may or may not add some lag and should add flow/VE at the top end. This does echo the results that Mike saw.

Intake manifold theory goes way beyond plenum volume and flow bench tests. This is because there is no static airflow in an engine - it is always transient. Intake valves are always opening and closing and the RPM is always changing at wide open throttle which changes the airflow accordingly. Wave theory alone is a few chapters worth of study. Intake manifold runners have a lot in common with the ports on subwoofer enclosures. Strange but true.

The vast majority of the gains come from improved airflow and distribution. That gets you 80-90% of the gains from 10% of the work. Doing it ten more times with ten revised designs may or may not improve things. This is why tools like FEA exists. Even then the parts are physically tested. This is way beyond the reach of mere enthusiasts and the market isn't there to support such endeavors.

This manifold does look very good and I've got no doubt that it will show gains on any 30 frame turbo. How much remains to be seen and will vary depending on setup. Turbos make their power based on the difference in the pressure ratios between air in and air out of the engine. Removing bottlenecks (significant or not) on either side will yield gains above a certain power level.

Wizard-of-OD
02-06-2008, 04:23 PM
now that the pedigree of the manifold is known
(http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2234711&postcount=22) some of the posts in this thread are pretty funny.[rolleyes]
Would you like some more Gasoline?[:o]
Jeez some of you really need to grow up @ times....
Regardless if you call Sleepers or not,they will tell you to contact me.Its that simple....
[az]

fred2ka4
02-06-2008, 05:16 PM
iI think its funny that you would compare INA(Wiz) to APR. COMPLETELY opposite aspects of the market. APR is a multy million dollar a year grossing company. their facility is larger than the university that i live next to. they offer a lot of products but nothing like this at all. and nothing really new other than the R1. it would be pretty easy for them to hop on this IM boat. but they don't. cause they don't care. other than promoting sales they have, they don't even care to post here. or talk to the actual customers. same with many of the advertising companies on here and other boards..


Before making statements like this, you should know what you are talking about ....

Both Kieth and Andy replied to this thread (make sure you read the whole thing)

http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1234&highlight=apr&mforum=20grit

Even though this is besides the fact, APR builds product for the masses, while Wizard-of-OD builds for both the mild and the extreme application. This manifold has a very specific narrow target so conventional testing and application does not apply. As stated before, there are to many variables that have to be taken into consideration when considering the performance gains of this manifold, and for most of us including myself, this manifold exceeds the capabilities of our modifications.

There have already been proven gains by those whose engines that have the capabilities to take advantage of the increased flow, without complaint so I do not see what more is needed. If you are not able to gain performance from this product than it is not for you. Mike has mentioned another scenario and this if you are pushing 300WHP why would you go and buy an FMIC that is capable of supporting 800WHP?? That would not be a wise decision and again this manifold is designed for a specific target market.

ModifiedA4
02-06-2008, 07:35 PM
Jeez some of you really need to grow up @ times....

"THATS comedy gold!"

http://www.modifieda4.com/images/random-pics/bania.jpg

A4Rollin
02-06-2008, 08:06 PM
"THATS comedy gold!"

http://www.modifieda4.com/images/random-pics/bania.jpg

HAHA, LMFAO!!!

Puke, now thats a funny word!

Wizard-of-OD
02-06-2008, 08:25 PM
"THATS comedy gold!"

http://www.modifieda4.com/images/random-pics/bania.jpg
I am not the one whose every second post is a bullshit remark.
People like you often take the name "forum troll"....

btw this is from when I use to post immaturely but I have outgrown the stage of putting down people,however I will sign off on this one. (its really one of my favourite).
http://80tq.com/~wiz/POST%20FUNNIES/Drop%20Kick%20the%20Moron.gif

WhiteG60
02-07-2008, 06:35 AM
I am not the one whose every second post is a bullshit remark.
People like you often take the name "forum troll"....


I did find this picture of you in one of your galleries making other prototypes.
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jan2008/PaperWeldingHelmet.jpg

ModifiedA4
02-07-2008, 07:05 AM
I am not the one whose every second post is a bullshit remark.
People like you often take the name "forum troll"....




ahhh the old take the moral highground defense. [rolleyes]

lets review this thread, it starts with a somewhat inflammatory post that does ask a very simple direct question, a question anyone selling an expensive 'performance' part should be able to answer, easily, and quickly.

instead, the nutswingers and other people with foggy objective positions totally attack the OP. Then YOU, utterly instaplode all over the thread.

Finally some truth comes out, YOU didnt develop the part, which is why you cant answer the OP. Simple enough. I point this out, then YOU tell us to 'grow up' (keep in mind YOUR previous instaplode...funny stuff).

Now im a troll, and your nutswingers are back while you take the moral highground.....and its still funny.

Your business practices are hilarious, and so are your fan boys.

I'm not sponsored, I have no vested interested in seeing you fail, you're taking care of that yourself.

onemoremile
02-07-2008, 07:11 AM
Time to close this thread too.