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View Full Version : Going to start my VR6 swap soon... calling wizard!



bellofello
01-11-2008, 09:34 AM
so yeah title says it.

For now my clutch on my 2.8 QM is pretty well fried, still driveable but not the way you want to be driving...

When you do this swap, what clutch is needed? I will be ordering one soon, I know you need the 034 flywheel and adaptor, I will be using my stock 2.8 trans, so will a southbend stg3 (for the 2.8)work? Also I need to specify whether I'm using my stock flywheel or a lwfw, would the 034 unit be considered a lwfw?

just to make a simple pull the 30V out and put the VR6 in, what is needed to make it work the cheapest? Here's what I've come up with so far...

-motor mounts
-longitudinal vr6 starter
-034 flywheel
-034 adaptor plate
-stock vr6 wiring harness


what else is a must for this swap?
I will be building the motor and butting a BAT on in the future, just low funds and no spare vehicle to rock while it's off the road.

thanks.

dougyfresh
01-11-2008, 09:52 AM
Awesome! I'm subscribing to this.

I thought you also needed to mod the crossmember and oil pan?

Nebone
01-11-2008, 09:57 AM
Check out the build of the 034 car. You will need to do what they did. This includes a modified oil pan or modyfying the subframe (thing is harder than a rock to cut). Need to make new motor mount points and supports for those. Pretty much swapping an engine that was never designed to be in there.

Do it up.

TMorris
01-11-2008, 10:45 AM
INA on 4T is on a lot more than issam it seems like so you could prob shoot him a PM. This isnt the vr6 swap link but one of his, didnt want to search

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3490543

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 10:48 AM
INA on 4T is on a lot more than issam it seems like so you could prob shoot him a PM. This isnt the vr6 swap link but one of his, didnt want to search

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3490543

lol! dude INA is issam [:p]

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 10:50 AM
i really dont see this happening...

you need custom motor mounts, 034 offers none...
you need standalone ecm... $$$$$$
you need a spare vehicle and lot of $$$$


BUT, if you are going to do this, i will setup you up with anything 034 sells, i am a vendor [up].... good luck

AudiA4_20T
01-11-2008, 11:34 AM
i really dont see this happening...

you need custom motor mounts, 034 offers none...
you need standalone ecm... $$$$$$
you need a spare vehicle and lot of $$$$


BUT, if you are going to do this, i will setup you up with anything 034 sells, i am a vendor [up].... good luck

Ive been trying to say this Jake but no one listens. Anyway, 034 does make a mount for the 24V VR6 FYI

pac1085
01-11-2008, 11:34 AM
You are missing so many things in your post, I really don't think you have an idea what you're getting into. Are you ready to spend over $10,000?

"simple pull the 30V out and put the VR6 in"

POST OF THE YEAR!! You have no idea what's involved dude.

dualaudi
01-11-2008, 01:13 PM
This might be a stupid question, esp. since I know nothing of the vr6 motor vs. the 2.8.

But what benefit is it to change over to a VR6? do you get an extra 100 hp?

onemoremile
01-11-2008, 01:39 PM
The VR6 is our version of the Supra or Skyline engine. The 24 valve heads flow extremely well and the bottom end is usually good for 500bhp. The engine is short enough to fit even though it is basically an inline 6. The intake is all on one side and the exhaust is all on another. There is plenty of room for manifold and turbo beside the engine rather than behind it tucked in by the bellhousing like the S4 and RS6.

So you get big power potential and ease of upgrading/maintenance but it is also a heavy engine that wasn't supposed to ever fit in there.

dualaudi
01-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Thanks onemoremile... that makes so much more sense... Rock on bello! get that put in...

bellofello
01-11-2008, 02:11 PM
10,000 dollars for a stock motor eh, I'm the service manager at an established shop, I don't pay for labour, I CAN get a car, but really don't want to ask the owner to use a car for the time it takes to build and install this motor, I'm more interested to just getting it in. I will be using the stock vr6 ecm and all the wiring to get that going. Work on the stand alone later on.

Making motor mounts and supports, modifying oil pan and subframe will be non issue. Anything that needs to be fabbed or customized is a non-issue, it's just the things that need to be purchased that pretty much 034 only offers that I need to know.

Still no one has answered my clutch question.

AudiRacerS4
01-11-2008, 02:49 PM
10,000 dollars for a stock motor eh, I'm the service manager at an established shop, I don't pay for labour, I CAN get a car, but really don't want to ask the owner to use a car for the time it takes to build and install this motor, I'm more interested to just getting it in. I will be using the stock vr6 ecm and all the wiring to get that going. Work on the stand alone later on.

Making motor mounts and supports, modifying oil pan and subframe will be non issue. Anything that needs to be fabbed or customized is a non-issue, it's just the things that need to be purchased that pretty much 034 only offers that I need to know.

Still no one has answered my clutch question.

service manager or not look at spending $10000 just to get everything you need and it up and running. Issam or someone posted the parts list and it was around $10000

AudiA4_20T
01-11-2008, 02:52 PM
10,000 dollars for a stock motor eh, I'm the service manager at an established shop, I don't pay for labour, I CAN get a car, but really don't want to ask the owner to use a car for the time it takes to build and install this motor, I'm more interested to just getting it in. I will be using the stock vr6 ecm and all the wiring to get that going. Work on the stand alone later on.

Making motor mounts and supports, modifying oil pan and subframe will be non issue. Anything that needs to be fabbed or customized is a non-issue, it's just the things that need to be purchased that pretty much 034 only offers that I need to know.

Still no one has answered my clutch question.

Hows your cluster going to work with a VR6 ECU?

auto_euroticaA4
01-11-2008, 03:00 PM
cant answer your clutch question, but im totally about seeing where this ends up...good luck

esss_pho
01-11-2008, 03:28 PM
go on to vortex...034 sells a BOLT IN KIT

search for it...made nice numbers on a 35r

pac1085
01-11-2008, 03:41 PM
Not sure on the clutch, ask 034. Their site doesn't state the size of the flywheel. There are also so many other little things you need to look into - you need to mod the valve cover, make a custom intake manifold, figure out the exhaust manifold, cooling system, custom fuel rail, fittings, lines, etc. tons of other things, I know im missing a lot. It sounds like you are planning on doing this over a weekend or something, so you don't have downtime as you don't have another car to drive. If you seriously think you're going to be able to do this that quickly, without running into issues (needing parts, etc) I don't care how good you are - you need to think again. Not trying to be an ass but I think you have unrealistic expectations.

b5a4lover
01-11-2008, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Wizard-of-OD

1) VR6 Engine = $500US (for the sake of argument)
(6) Forged JE Pistons @ 140 a piece = 840
(1) Cylinder Head gasket set = 127.20
(1) Set of AntiFriction Mains & Rod bearings = 200
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=952
(1) Head Stud set = 248
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=799
(1) Main stud set = 155
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=777
(1) Rod bolt set = 120
(1) 034 Motorsport VR6 flywheel = 450
(1) 034 Motorsport VR6 starter motor = 450
(1) VR5 adapter plate = 235
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=665
(1) 034 MS fuel rail = 95
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...oducts_id=1221
(1) Valve spring set + retainers = 285
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=618
(1) VR6 turbo manifold = 150US
(1) VR6 intake manifold = 800US
(1) 034EFI Stage IIc = 1750
(1) Set of techtonics cams 288* = 495
(1) Garrett GT3582R = 1395

Total so far = 8295.20


and the clutch is mounted to the engine not the tranny, so i dont think it would be a 2.8 clutch. i remember reading it somewhere but i cant remember what is used. i think maybe the 1.8 clutch fits the vr6, but i could be wrong

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Ive been trying to say this Jake but no one listens. Anyway, 034 does make a mount for the 24V VR6 FYI

this coming from someone who just started his big project btw...

unless youve done it, you have NO idea what you are in for lol... my build was estimated at 10-11k, well its now over 20k [headbang]...

and as far as the mounts, there are NO mounts for any engine available to my knowledge [;)]

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 04:45 PM
and the clutch is mounted to the engine not the tranny, so i dont think it would be a 2.8 clutch. i remember reading it somewhere but i cant remember what is used. i think maybe the 1.8 clutch fits the vr6, but i could be wrong


flwheel is mounted to the engine...

HIERLEVELZ
01-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Are the cams really necessary to make a decent amount of power and rod bolts and associated Hardware (unless hes tearing into the block)? I mean what kind of power can a stock block VR6 make w/o upgrading internals?

AudiA4_20T
01-11-2008, 04:58 PM
flwheel is mounted to the engine...

Hes saying hes wondering if the 2.8 clutch/flywheel would fit on the VR... My answer would be probably not.

How is your build 20k btw? Id have to say the bottom end work TOTAL is like $2k for me

onemoremile
01-11-2008, 05:02 PM
I mean what kind of power can a stock block VR6 make w/o upgrading internals?

50% more than an AEB 1.8t. [;)]

Don't bother with a 12 valve. When it is all said and done you'll still have that 12 valve head. The 24v head is nearly perfect stock. The cost going in won't be nearly as bad as dealing with it later.

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 05:04 PM
Hes saying hes wondering if the 2.8 clutch/flywheel would fit on the VR... My answer would be probably not.

How is your build 20k btw? Id have to say the bottom end work TOTAL is like $2k for me

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181746&page=2

thats no even close clint, thats just a rough draft lol

bellofello
01-11-2008, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Wizard-of-OD

1) VR6 Engine = $500US (for the sake of argument)
(6) Forged JE Pistons @ 140 a piece = 840
(1) Cylinder Head gasket set = 127.20
(1) Set of AntiFriction Mains & Rod bearings = 200
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=952
(1) Head Stud set = 248
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=799
(1) Main stud set = 155
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=777
(1) Rod bolt set = 120
(1) 034 Motorsport VR6 flywheel = 450
(1) 034 Motorsport VR6 starter motor = 450
(1) VR5 adapter plate = 235
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=665
(1) 034 MS fuel rail = 95
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...oducts_id=1221
(1) Valve spring set + retainers = 285
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=618
(1) VR6 turbo manifold = 150US
(1) VR6 intake manifold = 800US
(1) 034EFI Stage IIc = 1750
(1) Set of techtonics cams 288* = 495
(1) Garrett GT3582R = 1395

Total so far = 8295.20


that's an estimate that has parts in it that i will not be using, turbo, forged pistons...

I just love how everyone jumps to conclusions about another person's willingness to start a project. I am working on another vehicle with the owner for myself, so as soon as that gets worked out. I have the motor already, buddy with a '96 passat vr6 got rear ended buy an F250 and wrote off his car, so bought it back from the insurance for peanuts, so I got the motor for $200.

Will be piecing together parts as soon as it gets to my shop, try to get everything ready for when I can start working on it.

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 05:43 PM
sem, injectors, fuel pump, fmic core w/ custom piping... the list goes on...

not questioning your ability to do the project or your willingness, but when the price is double what you expected, will you regret it or not?

i dont really care if your car ends up half finished or not, but i am trying to help you make an acurate desicion by giving you some information [up]

bellofello
01-11-2008, 05:51 PM
Hows your cluster going to work with a VR6 ECU?

I've been thinking about that, I'm debating on going with a nice expensive unit like the one that's in the 034 car, or one of the stack units (www.stackinc.com)

or just go with some autometer gauges and make a fiberglass piece to hold them in nice.

bellofello
01-11-2008, 05:53 PM
sem, injectors, fuel pump, fmic core w/ custom piping... the list goes on...

not questioning your ability to do the project or your willingness, but when the price is double what you expected, will you regret it or not?

i dont really care if your car ends up half finished or not, but i am trying to help you make an acurate desicion by giving you some information [up]

now why would I have an FMIC on a stock vr6..... lol people keep giving me parts lists on vr6-t builds, I'm putting the stock motor in for now.

I will be doing this, soon, and when I do I will have a write up thread for sure.

bellofello
01-11-2008, 05:56 PM
I realize this isn't gonna be a cheap slap it in job, but I do think it's gonna be worth it, because someone that isn't 034 motorsport will have a vr6 powered B5 a4, it will be awesome.

b5a4lover
01-11-2008, 05:58 PM
that's an estimate that has parts in it that i will not be using, turbo, forged pistons...

I just love how everyone jumps to conclusions about another person's willingness to start a project. I am working on another vehicle with the owner for myself, so as soon as that gets worked out. I have the motor already, buddy with a '96 passat vr6 got rear ended buy an F250 and wrote off his car, so bought it back from the insurance for peanuts, so I got the motor for $200.

Will be piecing together parts as soon as it gets to my shop, try to get everything ready for when I can start working on it.

so just deduct the parts you dont need, i was just trying to give you the most complete list of parts i knew of for the vr6 swap, which was a post Issam made in a previous thread

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 06:00 PM
I realize this isn't gonna be a cheap slap it in job, but I do think it's gonna be worth it, because someone that isn't 034 motorsport will have a vr6 powered B5 a4, it will be awesome.

it would be totaly awesome, i actually plan on doing it myelf once i get sick of 400awhp+... i would suggest building the motor now, or it will have to come out later...

i stand corrected on the fmic


let me know if you want anything 034, i sell parts for them [up]

bellofello
01-11-2008, 06:04 PM
so just deduct the parts you dont need, i was just trying to give you the most complete list of parts i knew of for the vr6 swap, which was a post Issam made in a previous thread

oh for sure, I'm just trying to get across that I'm not doing a turbo built engine build at this time. I just have a gameplan and grand scheme in my head, and I'm gonna go with it as intelligently as possible. If I was located near 034 or in the states I'd call them right now, but I don't feel like sitting on the phone long distance from Canada to figure it out. I will contact them or take a trip down there to see them when I get all my parts in order.

bellofello
01-11-2008, 06:06 PM
it would be totaly awesome, i actually plan on doing it myelf once i get sick of 400awhp+... i would suggest building the motor now, or it will have to come out later...

i stand corrected on the fmic


let me know if you want anything 034, i sell parts for them [up]

oh if you were only in Canada! hahaha duties suck big balls, I will be trying to deal direct with 034, but if there super busy or something I'll definatly get in touch with you.

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 06:10 PM
oh if you were only in Canada! hahaha duties suck big balls, I will be trying to deal direct with 034, but if there super busy or something I'll definatly get in touch with you.

ok, sounds good [wrench]

dualaudi
01-11-2008, 06:14 PM
I don't understand if the motor is good for upto 500hp why would he need to factor in for rods and other internals?

Wizard-of-OD
01-11-2008, 06:16 PM
I reached about 8 posts and stopped reading,I am not going to bother replying to half the posts in this thread,just the one that is needed.As Jake stated I spend alot of time over on vortex so if you want me you can find me there and I will reply to you with in 30mins or so.



When you do this swap, what clutch is needed?.
When the flywheel was designed we used the Spec Audi 80 7A clutch packages as thats what worked for Javad to put down 700+Awhp and worked again in the A4 to make 648whp.
We have stages 1---> 5+ available.You just have to choose what you want really.

As for why no mounts have been made or offered by 034efi.The 12V VR6 motor unlike the 24V has VERY LITTLE mounting boses on the block.It down right sucks...the only place you have under the exhaust manifold is where the MKIII VW Golf engine mount bracket bolts to.Under the intake manifold you are left with where the bracket where the AC compressor bolts to.

Now compare that with the 24V block:
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh208/purelife25/IMGP0164.jpg?t=1199647708
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh208/purelife25/IMGP0163.jpg?t=1199647762

You can clearly see there are alot more mounting boses available on the block as a similar engine was bolted longitudinally (The VR5 in the passat).The VR5 mount brackets DO bolt up to the 24V VR6 block but DO NOT bolt up to the 12V as the 24V and 12V block are 2 completely different engines.

Why did 034 not build brackets?Because realistically...we have people coming to us that want to put this in b2's all the way B6's and some C4's.Some people want to push the engine all the way to the back of the fire wall and use custom cooling system.Some what a stock like positin...some want to lower there engine,etc etc.it would be impossible to build a bracket for everyone so we leave that up to the user.
I mean look @ the Audi V8 conversions....everyone single one of them had to have engine mount brackets built and they ALL had no problem doing it.There are now about 18 V8 conversions running around and the users are very happy.
IMHO if building engine mount brackets is too much work then forget the swap all together.

If you are using the 12V VR6 engine block,I have not tried this but I believe the steel oil pan may clear the subframe some what.But yes the subframe does need modifying so that the engine can sit low enough in the engine bay.Also the MKIV plastic valve cover is the one you want as it is flat in the front.
When you are ready to order your parts just send myself or jake or mike a pm.Jake seems to be on here alot so more than likely he will be on you like white on rice LOL.

mike is just too busy making his son shit himself (look @ that poor kid opoening his mouth)...[:D]

Whatever the case its a fun swap and there are MANY parts available.Ive sold about 6 flywheels and Javad did a run of 10 so it looks like more and more people are coming around and hey...if you can get the brackets made maybe we will offer them and say it is an "x y z specific application".

Let me know if you need anything else.
Issam

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 06:50 PM
When you are ready to order your parts just send myself or jake or mike a pm.Jake seems to be on here alot so more than likely he will be on you like white on rice LOL.

im trying to make the whole community BT! the more BT, the more repect the vw/audi crew gets [wrench]

Wizard-of-OD
01-11-2008, 07:01 PM
im trying to make the whole community BT! the more BT, the more repect the vw/audi crew gets [wrench]

Maybe if you included an S in that respect you would get alot more....[;)]

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 07:04 PM
Maybe if you included an S in that respect you would get alot more....[;)]

sorry, my "e" grammar sucks, i dont deny it [:D]

TMorris
01-11-2008, 08:37 PM
lol! dude INA is issam [:p]

At least i can have my SN the right way here [:p] haha i got owned

BTW you wont be the only one with a vr6 swap. Last i heard atleast 5 were in the works

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 08:45 PM
At least i can have my SN the right way here [:p] haha i got owned

yea i got owned [=(]

guess audizine is too proper for the word ass to be in my sn....

should put in my signature: AKA crazyass713

and you have an extra k so dont you lecture me http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff52/crazyass713/rant2.gif lol

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 08:46 PM
Last i heard atleast 5 were in the works

kits sold... doesnt mean they will be utilized lol

TMorris
01-11-2008, 09:10 PM
kits sold... doesnt mean they will be utilized lol

Well I know Tallaiman has his black B5 gutted but i think he said he was waiting for the spring. I thought Jmatto was up to something too.

317ssayzarc
01-11-2008, 09:12 PM
Well I know Tallaiman has his black B5 gutted but i think he said he was waiting for the spring. I thought Jmatto was up to something too.

knew about tallai, but jmatto?

TMorris
01-11-2008, 09:15 PM
knew about tallai, but jmatto?

Maybe it was his mk3...idk ever since his s4 seat accident he doesnt pop up much

Mine's an Outie
01-11-2008, 09:32 PM
What do you guys think a set of 12v vr6 mounts are worth? I may have a set I'm willing to part with.

It sets the engine so you dont have to cut the subframe and the stock intake manifold fits under the hood. The steel oil pan would need some modifying. Either by a hammer or a cut and weld.

Wizard-of-OD
01-12-2008, 10:28 AM
Where are you bolting them to on the block?

Mine's an Outie
01-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Where are you bolting them to on the block?

On the passenger side it bolts to the 4 holes that the normal mount would bolt to. And on the driver side there is a flange that bolts to the 6 holes under the alternator and a/c compressor bracket and also another flange that bolts to the non-used hole for the vr6 tranny.

black00A4
01-13-2008, 07:26 PM
Man why not just build up the 2.8 motor? I think that would be much more efficent.

a220vt
01-13-2008, 08:05 PM
The VR5 mount brackets DO bolt up to the 24V VR6 block
Would you perhaps care to enlighten us with some pictures of this yet? Passenger side specifically?

bellofello
01-14-2008, 07:07 AM
Man why not just build up the 2.8 motor? I think that would be much more efficent.

the vr6 is a better motor overall. There are tons of off the shelf parts, whereas the 2.8 has nothing.