K04...GT2X...GT28r...GTRS/GT28rs - Official Turbo Comparison

[mioStile]

I've just about had it...I've searched high and low, close and far. It's time to TURBO COMPARE on a new level. I have got to get the kinks (pros and cons of each turbo) out of my system (actually...into my system because I still don't understand them fully). So far, this is what I have---

K03 - Stock.

K04
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/aweko4kit.jpg
Nice OEM replacement. Spools insanely fast and the torque makes you feel
like your riding a high hp car. Also, you get the all-beautiful turbo spike that some of us seek. However, a lot of hp is not made, making the existing kits a bit expensive for the relatively small power gains. However, the kits do allow you to run only a turbo and few supporting mods successfully/safely. DV is necessary, while an upgraded exhaust and fmic is recommended, but not needed. Further, a common claim is that, while the K04 produces much more power than Stage 1, and a bit more than Stage 1+ (in the form of smoother torque, though still with a lot of kick), people are left desiring more power after they've had it for a few months. This turbo can be tweaked a bit, and if the driver has the money to spend, tuners like MTM have produced K04's with supporting mods that are good for as much power as a BT setup. However...$$$$$$$$$.
K04 Dyno
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/K04Dyno.jpg
MTM K04 Dyno
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/MTMK04dyno.jpg

GT2X (BT)
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT2Xkit.jpg
It seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is not quite as big as a GTRS/GT28rs, which means a spool time almost as quick as a K04. And on top of that, it's good for almost 300 crank hp. Power comes on near 3000 rpm, and lasts up until 6000rpm. Finally, as its torque comes on in full by 3,000 rpm, you get an intensified turbo spike of those in the K03 and K04s. It's perfect, right? WRONG - Evidently, it's only oil-cooled (not also water-cooled, like the GTRS), which means that it has a tendency to have a shortened life. This makes a turbo timer almost necessary. Somebody also has gone as far as to say that it is better for the turbo if you don't rev high for the last few miles before the car reaches its destination (I don't understand this at all). On top of that, it's not a ball-bearing turbo, but rather a thrust-bearing turbo (I don't understand what difference that makes [not from a hardware perspective, but from a symptom point of view]). Next, to my knowledge (I'd love someone to prove me wrong), there exists no solid software tuning for it.
ATP Dyno (a bit ambitious)
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT2Xdyno.gif

GT28r (BT)
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/AWE_GT28R_full_640.jpg
This is the turbo provided by AWE Tuning. Again, to my knowledge, this differs from the GTRS/GT28rs in that the turbine is of smaller diameter than those present in the GTRS/GT28rs. Unlike the GT2X, it is both oil- and water-cooled, making use of newer technology and prolonging life. Now, while the housing is quite a bit larger than the GT2X, this turbo takes quite a bit more time to spool. Now, while it produces similar hp/tq numbers as the GT2X (maybe a little more), significant hp does not kick in until ~3700 rpm. Torque does not kick in until 3500 to 3700 rpm, as well. However, the power/tq (especially tq) deliverance is much smoother, lasting until 5500-6000 rpm. While this corrects the lack of high-end power inherent in the K03 and K04s, it requires you to rev your car much higher...which is flat out not good for your engine (unless it has been upgraded with stronger internals). Also, with this turbo, it now becomes absolutely necessary to run an upgraded catback exhaust and highly-recommended fmic if you want to see the numbers previously-described...safely. A HFC/Test pipe is not required, but will help gain some horsepower. Keep in mind, however, that with a HFC or test pipe, more pollutants will enter the environment and your car will not pass smog tests. Also, some people have claimed that, despite the $3,695 price tag, the kit is not well-engineered (I don't understand why).
Dyno
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT28r.jpg

GTRS/GT28rs
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GTRSKit.jpg
Highly-revered, and supported by great software. The full kit, with supporting modifications (sold by EuroCode Tuning), produces octane-dependent power of up to 400 crank hp. However, with premium pump gas and a slew of supporting mods, you will most likely see ~350 hp range. Torque exists at ~320-340 lb/ft based on dynos I've seen recently. While this kit contains the same sized housing as the GT28r, it has a larger turbine wheel, which allows for more flow, which leads more efficiency, and therefore, more hp. However, as it is larger, it takes even more time to spool, resulting in useable power only after 3700 to 4000 rpm. While I've never ridden in/driven a BT A4, higher-revving in this kit is required to utilize the power available. Understandably, this puts a lot of pressure on the engine, creating the potential for more problems. A DV, FMIC, and upgraded exhaust system become a necessity by this point. While a GTRS eliminator kit is another popular option, low boost and relatively no timing is required to keep EGT's down. So, don't expect to see more than 230 hp/260 tq (I assume this is crank hp/tq, but am not entirely clear. This info was gleaned from a dyno performed by EcodeTuning here - http://www.ecodetuning.com/gallery/Dyno%20Graphs/GTRS%20Eliminator/2004_GTRS_91oct.jpg). However, this kit is incredibly "tweakable," and many people see many different numbers based on what supporting modifications they use.
Dyno
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GTRS.jpg

GT2871r
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT71rkit.jpg
This turbo kit is yet another variation of the GT28 series. While the housing is still the same size, the turbine wheel is a bit larger than the GTRS/GT28rs, allowing for yet more flow, more efficiency, and therefore more power. If the entire kit is purchased, you are privy to an octane dependent 450hp at the crank. However, the cons of this turbo, aside from the added stress on engine internals, is that it takes even longer to spool, keeping significant power from hitting until 4000-4200 rpm. This power holds (with only slight decreases in hp and tq) until 7000 - 7500 rpm. Similar to the GTRS/GT28rs, a dv, upgraded exhaust, exhaust manifold, fmic, and turbo inlet pipe are needed to run this kit safely, and actually achieve the power numbers quoted by the kit. Again, similar to the GTRS/GT28rs, there is an eliminator kit available for this setup. And, as for the same reasons stated above for the GTRS/GT28rs eliminator setup, you will only see 300 crank hp / 305 tq.
Dyno
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT71rElimdyno.jpg

Notes - Now, for my questions - I wanted to go with the GT2X, but after doing research, it became clear that it was not reliable. You mean to tell me that there is no turbocharger that spools fast, has usable power down low (aka between 2000 and 6000 rpm), and is both oil- and water-cooled for reliability. Then I'd say...GT28r - However, it seems to take a bit long to spool, and I'm afraid it takes away my beloved turbo spike (I'm not a fan of overly smooth power in a turbo car). Still, for some reason, people seem to say that the GT28r kit is not the best. Why is this?

[Jet Jockey]

One big problem with your little exercise...

Different dynos and different conditions mean all the data cannot be compared!

[A4ringedONE8T]

The 28R GIAC kit for sure has a torque spike, this is what has grenaded the motors with this setup. With the GTRS and larger turbo's the power is more gradual and therefore puts less stress on the internals. If you think a GTRS doesnt have power till 6k your incorrect, a GTRS will have you in the seat and be on its way by 4k rpm, a 71R a few hundred later. After you have driven a GTRS/28RS/... car, the low RPM spike is crap and sucks more than you think its good right now. GTRS power is much more usable than any K03/K04 setup. Those turbo's are so off/on that its ridiculous, when you want a bit of power you cant, you get the whole thing. A big turbo is much more controlable, when you want to granny drive you can and stay clear of boost, when you want power or need it, its there on a complete different level. If you are trying to talk yourself into a smaller turbo because you like the spike you are nuts. Drive a BT car, afterwards K03/K04 power and torque spike is hardly something to desire!!!

[martini]

it looks like you have gtrs and gt28rs as almost the same thing.... theyre very different

[Tgr_Clw]

Actually yeah. While the tq spike of a K04 setup is fun, it does get a tad annoying.

[Greg@DTH]

it looks like you have gtrs and gt28rs as almost the same thing.... theyre very different

Not really...

[QuattroRocket]

To be more accurate there are two GTRS turbo setups available through E-Code tuning in eliminator setups, allowing for a mostly stock mounting option and a stock exhaust manifold, basically a bolt on upgrade.

Then there are the top mount Garrett GT28 series turbos which require different exhaust manifolds and are more of a custom option. Some serious modders have gone to GT30 series Garrett turbos for even more power potential.

And everything pretty much from the K04 up will require a new upgraded clutch.

[absolutegtr]

I find this thread EXTREMLY interesting...

I am facing the EXACT dilema. I dont know which setup to go with, I like teh idea of the K04 spike....but then again, why not go big or go home?

But then again, I do ALOT (if not all) city driving, so the K04 low end torque would be ideal....Plus relaibility is a MAJOR if not THE concern

I dunno, lol

[AudiA4_20T]

I find this thread EXTREMLY interesting...

I am facing the EXACT dilema. I dont know which setup to go with, I like teh idea of the K04 spike....but then again, why not go big or go home?

But then again, I do ALOT (if not all) city driving, so the K04 low end torque would be ideal....Plus relaibility is a MAJOR if not THE concern

I dunno, lol

honestly if your going BT and know your going to want it big, build your engine first

[martini]

Not really...

when you look at the supporting hardware you need to run a GT28RS vs a GTRS they are obviously different.

If someone reads this and heads to the store and buys a GT28RS they are going to be looking at an entirely different problem then if they bought a GTRS. of course performance wise they are not that different...but the probably shouldnt be grouped together for a thread like this..

thats all i was saying

[Greg@DTH]

Why would they not...the GT28Rs is found on the APR setup and their is an AWE option available.

Supporting hardware with the REVO software is pretty much the same.

440 or 430cc injectors, a FMIC, testpipe or HFC, exhaust and a clutch to hold 500TQ.

[Groove1797]

octane should be noted

[doublezero30]

i too wonder many things about turbo upgrades. one of the being if the gt28rs kit seen at http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1362 needs a new manifold or if you could bolt that up to the stock manifold?

[Greg@DTH]

i too wonder many things about turbo upgrades. one of the being if the gt28rs kit seen at http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1362 needs a new manifold or if you could bolt that up to the stock manifold?

That link you posted does not bolt up to the stock manifold, it come with it's own manifold. Some people consider that hardware obsolete because you can make the same power with a GTRS Eliminator (which looks more OEM and the programming is more refined).

Give me a second and I will post up pictures of the link you posted installed on my car.

[Greg@DTH]

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/502/engine.jpg

[dirtybrd]

A red x?

[Greg@DTH]

A red x?

Ill rehost it, comcast must not like hotlinking.

[doublezero30]

That link you posted does not bolt up to the stock manifold, it come with it's own manifold. Some people consider that hardware obsolete because you can make the same power with a GTRS Eliminator (which looks more OEM and the programming is more refined).

Give me a second and I will post up pictures of the link you posted installed on my car.


you know, now i kind of feel dumb. haha...just looked at the link again and it clearly says it comes with a turbo manifold. how much would a kit like that cost to have installed anyway? obviously it would vary by shop, but an estimate would be good enough...since ive got absolutely no clue.

[Greg@DTH]

$800 labor would be fair

[mioStile]

One big problem with your little exercise...

Different dynos and different conditions mean all the data cannot be compared!

I apologize for angering/misleading anyone. While I am thoroughly familiar with that fact, I found it a bit difficult to find a dyno that had tested the same a4 with each of the setups I discussed on the same day with the same ambient conditions. This thread is meant to act as a guideline for people beginning their search into the world of upgraded turbos.


Actually yeah. While the tq spike of a K04 setup is fun, it does get a tad annoying.

I could definitely understand that it might if it is a constant facet of the K04's performance. Is it really hard to keep the torque spike from occurring by shifting early? Or, is it just something that can't be kept from occurring because of the physical characteristics of the turbo?


To be more accurate there are two GTRS turbo setups available through E-Code tuning in eliminator setups, allowing for a mostly stock mounting option and a stock exhaust manifold, basically a bolt on upgrade.

Then there are the top mount Garrett GT28 series turbos which require different exhaust manifolds and are more of a custom option. Some serious modders have gone to GT30 series Garrett turbos for even more power potential.

And everything pretty much from the K04 up will require a new upgraded clutch.

Solid point. However, I was under the impression that these two turbos (gtrs and gt28rs) performed very similarly? Am I correct or no?


octane should be noted

This is also an awesome point that I didn't address. I know octane relates directly with timing. Would you mind expanding upon how octane levels affect the different turbo sizes?


That link you posted does not bolt up to the stock manifold, it come with it's own manifold. Some people consider that hardware obsolete because you can make the same power with a GTRS Eliminator (which looks more OEM and the programming is more refined).

Give me a second and I will post up pictures of the link you posted installed on my car.

THIS IS HUGE! 400hpA4 - would you mind expanding upon why some people consider the gtrs eliminator to be less obsolete when compared to the gt28rs? Do they perform the same (feel the same)? Does one require the addition of an HFC/test pipe and the other doesn't? Which one produces more usable power? Does the gt28rs kill your transmission if you're running a tip because of the torque compared to the "smoother" delivery of the gtrs?

[Greg@DTH]

The reasons the ATP full GT28Rs setup you have posted is considered obsolete are as follows:

1.) Price...you are looking at $2,200 for a turbo, oil and coolant lines, a exaust manifold, a downpipe and a 3" MAF housing with cone air filter.

2.) The MAF housing is worthless, it sits 6 inches off of the turbo inlet and will NEVER produce a accurate reading for programming.

3.) The downpipe...does not mate up to OEM or aftermatket exhaust without modification

4.) The exhaust manifold...more of a bitch to bolt up that the upgraded eliminator manifold.

The maximum power you will see out of this setup on a B6 1.8T is 335AWHP. This is how much I made on my car and how much EuroCode made on another customers car.

The GTRS will bolt up to the OEM manifold or a upgraded ATP manifold. You can retain all of your emissions stuff

A OEM cat or a aftermarket test pipe will work with it.

You can retain your OEM MAF and stcok airbox

It makes 335AWHP just like the full GT28RS

The CHRA, turbine and compressor wheels are the same as the full GT28RS, good things come in small packages.

[Greg@DTH]

This is the setup I recommend

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 and this http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&relate=1&p=466

Ask for the Delphi 440cc injectors.

[osofast10]

this is a great post... thanks

[mioStile]

this is a great post... thanks

Thanks dude - I really hope it helps! A special thanks to GREG@DTH for all his help, and for everybody else who posted up.

[LavaSurfer]

So if I understand correctly, does the APR stage 3 kit come with the GT28RS turbo that you speak of? From the pictures I found, it doesn't look like a GTRS.

I was under the idea that the APR kit came with the "full" size turbo that might edge out the GTRS kit as far as overall flow. So that's why it costs a little more and it makes pretty high numbers (300whp range on 93)with a "safe" plug and play tune.

[eddier]

This is the setup I recommend

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 and this http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&relate=1&p=466

Ask for the Delphi 440cc injectors.

what about that setup w/ a tip tranny? :)

[doublezero30]

wait so if the GTRS bolts up to the stock manifold, and i already have, intercooler, exhaust, DV...ide need a clutch and injectors (and obviously software)...could i just buy the GTRS hardware kit? or does that not come with the turbo?

[absolutegtr]

Honestly, what setup is the all our best/cheapest/easiest to install?

If I had the money I would go the APR route...since the tune is plug and play...which turbo can I go to get that "plug and play" SAFE tune!

Is there anybody here that has a BT A4 as their daily driver (I drive over 400 miles a week)

[Spinnetti]

Honestly, what setup is the all our best/cheapest/easiest to install?

If I had the money I would go the APR route...since the tune is plug and play...which turbo can I go to get that "plug and play" SAFE tune!

Is there anybody here that has a BT A4 as their daily driver (I drive over 400 miles a week)

I have the eurocode/atp GT28RS that 400hp linked you to, setup with all the supporting mods including ER Comp FMIC, APR exhaust, test pipe, ceramic 6 button clutch and LWFW. I take the kids to school every day in it. Drivability is fine, but I had to learn how to drive all over as its weaker down low, and the LWFW makes stop and go traffic a chore. Make sure you have a good shop, and I'd recommend having a turbo support fabbed up = the "kit" (more an assemblage of parts) doesn't have one. It will probably cost more than you expect to have installed and done right too. Doing all the work myself except the clutch install, I have about $6000 in it (better to buy a used S4 prolly). That said, its pretty smooth and the REVO software is the best I've experienced (Started with APR Stage 1, 1+,2+.... and had problems with every single part I got from APR -exhaust is broken now)

[9744RR]

Honestly, what setup is the all our best/cheapest/easiest to install?

If I had the money I would go the APR route...since the tune is plug and play...which turbo can I go to get that "plug and play" SAFE tune!

Is there anybody here that has a BT A4 as their daily driver (I drive over 400 miles a week)


My wife's drives the family A4 with a GTRS kit daily.

[9744RR]

what about that setup w/ a tip tranny? :)

Tip tranny and the GTRS is fine. Just don't launch the car.

[absolutegtr]

/\ So the GTRS Eliminator is the 2871r right?

[jcs4]

/\ So the GTRS Eliminator is the 2871r right?

NO..its a 2860 w/ a custom turbine housing to match the stock manifold. The eliminators come in both a 2860 (GTRS) or 2871 variant.

[absolutegtr]

NO..its a 2860 w/ a custom turbine housing to match the stock manifold. The eliminators come in both a 2860 (GTRS) or 2871 variant.


Ok, but the more "common" variant used for our A4's are the 2871....right?

[A4ringedONE8T]

/\ So the GTRS Eliminator is the 2871r right?

As said above, a GTRS is closest to a GT28RS but physically is a bit smaller. A 71R Elim is the same as a GTRS except it has a 71mm turbine wheel in the same housing

[A4ringedONE8T]

Ok, but the more "common" variant used for our A4's are the 2871....right?

No, a GT28RS (AKA Disco Potato AKA GT2860R) is the most commonly used. This is the basis for the GTRS as well as the turbo thats used with APR 3+

[1.8quattro]

Honestly, what setup is the all our best/cheapest/easiest to install?

If I had the money I would go the APR route...since the tune is plug and play...which turbo can I go to get that "plug and play" SAFE tune!

Is there anybody here that has a BT A4 as their daily driver (I drive over 400 miles a week)

Mine is a daily driver, I do a good 300+ mi a week. The big difference really is getting used to the clutch in traffic (I have the stock flywheel though), but other than that it's perfectly drivable.

[mioStile]

So if I understand correctly, does the APR stage 3 kit come with the GT28RS turbo that you speak of? From the pictures I found, it doesn't look like a GTRS.

I was under the idea that the APR kit came with the "full" size turbo that might edge out the GTRS kit as far as overall flow. So that's why it costs a little more and it makes pretty high numbers (300whp range on 93)with a "safe" plug and play tune.

The APR Stage 3+ kit does come with the GT28rs and it does come with the best exhaust manifold on the market, as well as a safe software program. However, it is a bit conservative in power delivery---REVO will be a bit more aggressive. Also, while it does produce the highest, safest amount of hp, the GTRS is more than capable of reaching the same numbers.


wait so if the GTRS bolts up to the stock manifold, and i already have, intercooler, exhaust, DV...ide need a clutch and injectors (and obviously software)...could i just buy the GTRS hardware kit? or does that not come with the turbo?

The hardware kit includes the actual Garrett GTRS turbocharger, as well as necessary gaskets and oil/water coolant lines. When you're ordering, I'd run your current parts by Eurocode just to make sure you've got everything you need. Keep in mind, the hardware kit does not include injectors, spark plugs, or software.

[AudiA4_20T]

I'm going to have to disagree with Greg on this, although the GTRS has been proven to make the most power out of the GT28 series turbos, theoretically it should not.

A full turbo setup should allow for a quicker spool and more top end power becuase flow is restricted with the GTRS setups on the inlet and stock manifold outlet. A full turbo setup would allow for more flow which means more power and a quicker spool because the turbo is breathing easier.

So, although Greg is right, I feel like it all depends on the tune and the GTRS tune seems to be perfectly done. However, this is why the APR Stage 3+ spools quicker and has more power

[9744RR]

The APR Stage 3+ kit does come with the GT28rs and it does come with the best exhaust manifold on the market, as well as a safe software program. However, it is a bit conservative in power delivery---REVO will be a bit more aggressive. Also, while it does produce the highest, safest amount of hp, the GTRS is more than capable of reaching the same numbers.



The hardware kit includes the actual Garrett GTRS turbocharger, as well as necessary gaskets and oil/water coolant lines. When you're ordering, I'd run your current parts by Eurocode just to make sure you've got everything you need. Keep in mind, the hardware kit does not include injectors, spark plugs, or software.


Correct. You can also make a GTRS programmed with REVO very safe and conservative by turning down the boost and timing with an SPS3. Or, you can make it very aggressive by doing the opposite.

[9744RR]

Mine is a daily driver, I do a good 300+ mi a week. The big difference really is getting used to the clutch in traffic (I have the stock flywheel though), but other than that it's perfectly drivable.


300 miles/week, that's it? My wife does that just shopping everyday. I drive about 1000 miles a week.

[1.8quattro]

300 miles/week, that's it? My wife does that just shopping everyday. I drive about 1000 miles a week.

[confused] I do 50mi a day to and from work. I live near the city so I don't drive far besides that.

[absolutegtr]

As said above, a GTRS is closest to a GT28RS but physically is a bit smaller. A 71R Elim is the same as a GTRS except it has a 71mm turbine wheel in the same housing


So the setup that you JUST sold...that was a a GT28RS...right?

I feel like such a newb in this thread.

I was dead set on going K04, but now I think otherwise, (good thing I opted for the stage 4 OFE clutch [:D])

I am not looking for the BEST (most powerful turbo), i want one that spools around 4K and will hold until 6500RPM....what are my options? I want to be able to run the REVO BT file....would that be the GT28RS?

[9744RR]

You want the GTRS Eliminator.

[AudiA4_20T]

So the setup that you JUST sold...that was a a GT28RS...right?

I feel like such a newb in this thread.

I was dead set on going K04, but now I think otherwise, (good thing I opted for the stage 4 OFE clutch [:D])

I am not looking for the BEST (most powerful turbo), i want one that spools around 4K and will hold until 6500RPM....what are my options? I want to be able to run the REVO BT file....would that be the GT28RS?

have you read the sticky at the top of the b6 thread that I wrote? I feel like I really need to update it

[mioStile]

So the setup that you JUST sold...that was a a GT28RS...right?

I feel like such a newb in this thread.

I was dead set on going K04, but now I think otherwise, (good thing I opted for the stage 4 OFE clutch [:D])

I am not looking for the BEST (most powerful turbo), i want one that spools around 4K and will hold until 6500RPM....what are my options? I want to be able to run the REVO BT file....would that be the GT28RS?

You def want the GTRS based on what stated desires. It will give you full power by 4000 and cut out around 6500. It's the safest turbo with the best ability to run aggressive/conservative based on how you tune it with the SPS3. The Revo file is MADE for it, and you can't get better software than that for that turbo. GTRS also allows you to keep your turbo/manifold in the stock location, whereas the GT28rs will necessitate a new configuration.

[QuattroRocket]

So with an SPS3 what are the regular file settings ? t0 & b0 and you use SPS 3 increase from there or is the file setup closer to a 5 & 5 so you can turn it down OR up depending on your application ?

[absolutegtr]

You def want the GTRS based on what stated desires. It will give you full power by 4000 and cut out around 6500. It's the safest turbo with the best ability to run aggressive/conservative based on how you tune it with the SPS3. The Revo file is MADE for it, and you can't get better software than that for that turbo. GTRS also allows you to keep your turbo/manifold in the stock location, whereas the GT28rs will necessitate a new configuration.

Ok, thanks man.

Its sounds like it is the GTRS eliminator turbo for me.

And I know, flame on, I just dont understand:

I thought GTRS Eliminator was like a SERIES of turboes:

Then in that Series was the GT28RS and the GT2871R and so on...

Can some one link me to the GTRS Eliminator turbo...I dont know why I am having difficulty understanding this

[9744RR]

click here

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-151&Category_Code=VVWTK

[manhertm]

OK , can someone explain the eliminator thing to me. All this time I thought it was like a brand name for a GTRS turbo. What's what the difference? His post didnt explain this.

[dougyfresh]

have you read the sticky at the top of the b6 thread that I wrote? I feel like I really need to update it

sometimes I don't think people read anything beyond the 'new' threads....

[manhertm]

have you read the sticky at the top of the b6 thread that I wrote? I feel like I really need to update it

Yeah, you need to insert the information in this thread in the sticky. He expanded at lot more in this thread.

[martini]

OK , can someone explain the eliminator thing to me. All this time I thought it was like a brand name for a GTRS turbo. What's what the difference? His post didnt explain this.

eliminator just means the turbo eliminates the need for a new exhaust manifold...ie the turbo is more or less custom to work for our cars. The two eliminators are the GT71R and GTRS...both tuned by REVO and are the primary REVO turbo kits these days.

GT28RS is not an eliminator and would require a new exhaust manifold. This turbo is in the 'extinct' revo GT28RS kit which greg talks about, as well as the APR stage 3 kit. This would be called a 'full' kit since it needs the different hardware, etc.

[manhertm]

eliminator just means the turbo eliminates the need for a new exhaust manifold...ie the turbo is more or less custom to work for our cars. The two eliminators are the GT71R and GTRS...both tuned by REVO and are the primary REVO turbo kits these days.

GT28RS is not an eliminator and would require a new exhaust manifold. This turbo is in the 'extinct' revo GT28RS kit which greg talks about, as well as the APR stage 3 kit. This would be called a 'full' kit since it needs the different hardware, etc.

Thank you.

[martini]

FYI:

These two cars are running the same turbo, just in two different kits:

GT28RS in the APR stage 3 kit
http://www.a4mods.com/library/members/Martini/images/CRW_3239.jpg


GT28RS in the 'extinct' Revo Kit
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/502/engine.jpg



APR kit retains the stock airbox, mounts the turbo on the bottom of the manifold (not up top like the Revo kit), uses a larger maf, etc. Same turbo but very different kits... both are "full" kits...not eliminators

[absolutegtr]

/\ SO if I went with the GTRS, would i need a new manifold? would it look like pic 2?

[doublezero30]

/\ SO if I went with the GTRS, would i need a new manifold? would it look like pic 2?

lol dude! i understand how you didnt understand at first, because i didnt either...but now its been explained. if you get the GTRS eliminator you ELIMINATE the need for a new manifold. therefore, the GTRS eliminator will bolt up to your stock mani and it will look like pic 1(more stock-like). at only $1500 for the GTRS elim hardware kit, i think down the line thats the kit i will be going with.

one question...if you dont launch too hard, but drive somewhat agressivey...how long do you think the stock clutch would hold up w/ GTRS? (days, weeks, months...)

[absolutegtr]

lol dude! i understand how you didnt understand at first, because i didnt either...but now its been explained. if you get the GTRS eliminator you ELIMINATE the need for a new manifold. therefore, the GTRS eliminator will bolt up to your stock mani and it will look like pic 1(more stock-like). at only $1500 for the GTRS elim hardware kit, i think down the line thats the kit i will be going with.

one question...if you dont launch too hard, but drive somewhat agressivey...how long do you think the stock clutch would hold up w/ GTRS? (days, weeks, months...)

LOL, dude chillax [:p]

I just saw the post above....I must have skimmed by it.

Ok, I got it now. One last question:

IF I do go the BT route (over K04) it would definetly be the GTRS turbo that i chose. BUT! Is the REVO BT file just a plain jane file and does it HAVE TO be tweake like that?

[mioStile]

LOL, dude chillax [:p]

I just saw the post above....I must have skimmed by it.

Ok, I got it now. One last question:

IF I do go the BT route (over K04) it would definetly be the GTRS turbo that i chose. BUT! Is the REVO BT file just a plain jane file and does it HAVE TO be tweake like that?

no tweaking required. :)


Also, just to make sure you understand, while the GTRS ELIMINATOR does not require a new manifold, there is the "Complete Solution" kit gathered by EuroCode that includes a wider diameter exhaust manifold for more flow and a test pipe (if you care about the environment like me, skip the test pipe. It deletes the cat and gives only about 15 hp). It is okay to run the GTRS with the stock manifold, but you will not realize the power that is capable from it. By getting the "Complete Solution," you will fit some parts that will allow you to better utilize the turbo.

Also, keep in mind, if you live in a hot climate, an intercooler becomes necessary with this turbo to keep down intake temps and keep your engine performing safely.

[mioStile]

Yeah, you need to insert the information in this thread in the sticky. He expanded at lot more in this thread.

I would be happy to have this added in if the moderators are cool with it! Just let me know--

[dougyfresh]

one question...if you dont launch too hard, but drive somewhat agressivey...how long do you think the stock clutch would hold up w/ GTRS? (days, weeks, months...)

I would not recommend using the stock clutch with any of these 'kits'. You're more than doubling the power out of your engine. A stock OE clutch won't cut it.

Take a few people on here with just reflashes and injectors. Their stock clutches started to go (ie: audia4_18t).

Going with a full GT28RS kit or a GTRS Eliminator kit is no time to cut corners. Do it right and you won't have to worry about anything else. Cut corners and you'll constantly be f'n with your car.

That said, you should bookkeep a clutch, FMIC, exhaust and upgraded brakes when factoring in the cost of going to a Big Turbo.

[doublezero30]

I would not recommend using the stock clutch with any of these 'kits'. You're more than doubling the power out of your engine. A stock OE clutch won't cut it.

Take a few people on here with just reflashes and injectors. Their stock clutches started to go (ie: audia4_18t).

Going with a full GT28RS kit or a GTRS Eliminator kit is no time to cut corners. Do it right and you won't have to worry about anything else. Cut corners and you'll constantly be f'n with your car.

That said, you should bookkeep a clutch, FMIC, exhaust and upgraded brakes when factoring in the cost of going to a Big Turbo.


yea i know its not recommened, i was wondering if its doable for about a 3-4weeks. i have fmic and exhuast already, which i will be putting back on my new a4 when i get one. so ive book kept gtrs eliminator hardware kit, injectors, clutch, and BBK. total would be around $4-5K...and thats a lot of dough to spend at once. lol

[absolutegtr]

/\ I vote to sticky! Very informative thread.

Anyone have a link to GTRS manifold?

[Condo]

GTRS manifold:

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-156&Category_Code=BCS

[absolutegtr]

/\ Thanks

So I guess the setup that i want is the one that Shawn just sold right? lol

[dougyfresh]

GTRS manifold:

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-156&Category_Code=BCS



and you can also use this manifold:
http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_61&products_id=784




Going BT is all a lot of money but you gotta pay to play. do your research, budget and it'll all work out. I've been waiting and reading for over a year and now my car is getting a GT28RS as I type this [:D]

[absolutegtr]

/\ Please explain why you went with teh GT28RS setup versus the GTRS (my planned route)?

[dougyfresh]

/\ Please explain why you went with teh GT28RS setup versus the GTRS (my planned route)?

I went with the GT28RS setup for a few reasons.

1) The big reason being I don't want to mess around with cracking ATP manifolds by going with an 'Eliminator' kit. I'm sure you can eliminate the cracking but I just don't want to deal with it.

2) Therefore, I stumbled upon a deal on the APR 3+ hardware (it included their manifold) so I picked that up. Planned on using that with a GT28RS or GT2871R turbo and REVO software. As those plans were in effect I read this thread: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170401

After reading that thread I sold my APR hardware and am now working with Mark to have him put his GT28RS system on my car. My car is currently in his shop and I hope to have it back in a few short days.

So, I put the stock DV and exhaust back on to make my car 100% stock. Sold my RaceTec FMIC since I'm going with the ASP intercooler. Had ASP install an SBC clutch a few weeks ago. We dyno'd my car stock and will dyno it (on the same dyno and pretty much the same conditions) with the full GT28RS kit. Also getting new oil pan and valve cover gaskets and a new timing belt while I'm at it since the car is at 120k. Once we're all done and my car is back I'll publish the numbers.

What better way than a custom dyno tune (for 3 octanes) suited to my vehicle? We all know its in the tune. I couldn't pass up the opportunity.

[Condo]

/\ Thanks

So I guess the setup that i want is the one that Shawn just sold right? lol

And the same setup I'll be selling in a month or two when I go with the 3071r.

[absolutegtr]

First off dougyfresh, thanks for posting your reasoning! But when you say the ATP manifold cracking, I remember reading it was because of the turbo having no support, correct? Also, is the Eurocode manifold, an ATP manifold? Main difference? Can we not just port and polish our stock manifolds?

Oh and Condo, make sure you hit me up, when it does coem time to sell it....with tax season rund the corner, I will be good to go!

[mioStile]

First off dougyfresh, thanks for posting your reasoning! But when you say the ATP manifold cracking, I remember reading it was because of the turbo having no support, correct? Also, is the Eurocode manifold, an ATP manifold? Main difference? Can we not just port and polish our stock manifolds?

Oh and Condo, make sure you hit me up, when it does coem time to sell it....with tax season rund the corner, I will be good to go!

While the ATP manifold has cracked, I'm not entirely sure why, but I have heard of people suggesting fabbing a couple custom mounts for the gtrs turbo - so your reasoning makes total sense. And yes, the EuroCode manifold is the ATP manifold. Another option, as far as I know, is the 034 exhaust manifold (posted link a bit higher on this page).

[LavaSurfer]

Also from what I have read is ATP beefed up the manifold in the area it was prone to cracking. But I do agree that with a just about any turbo mani....it need some sort of support and not just the piping itself holding that turbo there.

Just way too much vibration and its expanding and contracting constantly.....

[absolutegtr]

Oh stock K03's and K04's dont have support, do they? Is the GTRS that much bigger, lol? How heavy are they?

[mioStile]

Oh stock K03's and K04's dont have support, do they? Is the GTRS that much bigger, lol? How heavy are they?

The GTRS is about 1.5 times the size of a k03 and k04.

[martini]

K03 vs GT28RS

http://www.a4mods.com/pics/turbo/IMG_0905.JPG

http://www.a4mods.com/pics/turbo/IMG_0906.JPG

[absolutegtr]

/\ LOL cool pick

But what bigger?

GT28RS or GTRS???

[a4darkness]

Saving this thread for sure.

I'm contemplating the same...


I find this thread EXTREMLY interesting...

I am facing the EXACT dilemma. I don't know which setup to go with, I like teh idea of the K04 spike....but then again, why not go big or go home?

But then again, I do ALOT (if not all) city driving, so the K04 low end torque would be ideal....Plus reliability is a MAJOR if not THE concern

I dunno, lol

[mioStile]

/\ LOL cool pick

But what bigger?

GT28RS or GTRS???

The GT28rs and GTRS have the same performance numbers, while the GT28rs has a slightly larger housing. Refer up top a few posts and you'll find some more specifics.

[doublezero30]

so martinis picture shows that apr also makes a usable manifold for the GTRS. just incase anyone missed that [;)]

[A4ringedONE8T]

so martinis picture shows that apr also makes a usable manifold for the GTRS. just incase anyone missed that [;)]

The turbo in Martini's pic is a GT28RS (full) from the APR Stage 3+, that is NOT a GTRS

[A4ringedONE8T]

Here's my GTRS and K04-015

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/a4ringedone8t/My%20Car/DSC00648.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/a4ringedone8t/My%20Car/DSC00652.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/a4ringedone8t/My%20Car/DSC00646.jpg

[A4natomical]

/\ LOL cool pick

But what bigger?

GT28RS or GTRS???

just go with your first choice, GTRS. you wont regret it. IMO its the perfect all around turbo. pm me if you have any questions bout it.

[apexslider]

Lots of great info in here, and oddly enough I'm getting ready to make a choice on which one to go with. I could use a tad bit more info/advice (more so advice). I've got an 02 1.8TQ, here's what my car currently has... GIAC fx2 chip, 386 Injectors, Evolution Motorsports Intake, Evolution Motorsports Diverter Valve, Neuspeed Short Shifter, AWE Front-Mount Intercooler, APR Cat-back Exhaust, Techtonics High-Flow Catalytic Converter, Snub Nose, Stoptech Big Brake Kit (332mm, fronts), Goodrich Braided Lines.

Here's the kits I'm looking at...

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=553

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shared/part_detail.cfm?PMaI=1&PMoI=27&PEI=2&PP=8e_a4_18t_drivetrain.cfm&PPT=Drivetrain&IL=gt28rb6

My first concern is I don't want to open the motor up and change internals just yet, but I want more power than my current set up offers. It seems the ATP/Eurocode kits offer more power than the AWE kit, but if all other things are equal how do the 3 compare for longevity? I'm not seeing much difference in pricing being that AWE doesn't offer a manifold, but they do provide a cat, TIP, and turbo support bracket. The other two don’t offer that, but they do have the manifold. Of course, the AWE kit is $3600 compared to $2800 for ATP/Eurocode...but a TIP, cat, and someone to custom fab a support bracket would make the difference up...I would think.

So what to do? My car is my daily driver and I don’t want to ring its neck to get some good power, but this k03 is killing me! I'm wishing I could get my turbo VR motor back and figure out how to cram that under the hood!

All opinions, advice, and flaming welcome

[apexslider]

Nothing? I read the entire thread, not looking for tech info just some good ole fashion "what would you do?" I'm new to the 1.8's so my experience is limited to what I read on the internet...[rolleyes]

[Condo]

I went with the GTRS and I'd recommend it. I'm not sure if you get a discount on the awe kit because you already have their software but you might want to look into that.

[B6Lovin]

hey condo - how many miles are on your GTRS? [;)]

[Condo]

About 9,000 miles.

[B6Lovin]

you're running an AM manifold right? (id assume either ATP or 034) lmk if you're stepping up to a BAT and wanna get that thing outta your house somtime soon. [:)]

[apexslider]

I went with the GTRS and I'd recommend it. I'm not sure if you get a discount on the awe kit because you already have their software but you might want to look into that.

How much power is your car making? Is it usable power for city and highway driving? what made you choose that kit?

[Condo]

I haven't taken it to a dyno yet but I've heard the average is around 265-275whp. I think that the power is fine for city and highway driving. I got the GTRS because I found a good deal and it was in the power range that I wanted. I didn't want to spend the extra thousands on the APR kit and wasn't interested in the AWE kit.

[PRY4SNO]

I've been contemplating the turbo leap for months now.

A big factor I've considered is the ECU reflashing and swapping of injectors. The more I can minimize repetition of that the better. So I'll have to be very certain, and ready to just do it all at once (after my suspension).

A quick look at some dynos from the first page leads me to this conclusion:

GT28r/GTRS (etc.) kits make nice power for a reasonable price but for a bit over half the price I can get a meth'd-k04 to put out 275chp/275tq and I still don't need an intercooler. (I like the stealth/OEM+ look.) The figures are using a 60 chp gain from the meth over Avanteix's dyno figure, with the same torque (does water/meth increase tq?). Compare that to a GT28R kit with 290/295... I'd rather have the cash in hand to do some other things to my car (ecodes, for one, or RNS-E).

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/MTMK04dyno.jpg

$2000 k04: 215hp/275tq (+60 hp for water/meth = 275hp/275tq)

vs.

$3500+ GT28R: 290hp/295tq

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/biggigg/GT28r.jpg

That way I don't spend all my cash modding an A4 when I really pine for a B8 Avant S4. And stock-ish reliability is nice too.

[apexslider]

I think I've got it narrowed down to the GTRS or the GT2871. I cant seem to find to many people with the 2871 to see what they feel pros and cons are.

If I was to do the 2871 would I be wise to build up the head for higher revs <7000K?

[turbo944s2]

The Gt28r isnt that bad either. My car moves pretty good with it so far. When its time to do my next timing belt swap, Ill rebuild the motor and go bigger. Only thing that is crappy is the short first gear.

[michpan]

Does anybody have any information about the GT2x ? Is this a hybrid turbo or is it one of Garrett's GT25x turbo models ? How does it compare dimension-wise to GT28R and RS ?

I've considered every BT turbo option in the past (k04-015, K04-023 setup from the older S3, GT28RS, VF34 etc) but the GT2x eliminator seemed to be the smart choice for various reasons. Spool-up is fast, small difference compared to the K03 and in every day driving it's hardly noticeable. I'm FWD so lots of HP isn't an option without an LSD and I didn't want to change pistons or wristpins or whatever. With this kit you can keep the factory MAF case and it's cheap plus you can get away with just an upgraded smic if you don't wish to run very high boost.

I'm about to replace the factory clutch so I haven't dynoed the car yet. Just as an indication, MAF readings peak at 220g/s with a max boost of 1.4bar. I'll probably ask the guy responsible for the custom software if it's safe to get it any higher but the car is very fast as it is now.. :)


Michael

[doublezero30]

Does anybody have any information about the GT2x ? Is this a hybrid turbo or is it one of Garrett's GT25x turbo models ? How does it compare dimension-wise to GT28R and RS ?

I've considered every BT turbo option in the past (k04-015, K04-023 setup from the older S3, GT28RS, VF34 etc) but the GT2x eliminator seemed to be the smart choice for various reasons. Spool-up is fast, small difference compared to the K03 and in every day driving it's hardly noticeable. I'm FWD so lots of HP isn't an option without an LSD and I didn't want to change pistons or wristpins or whatever. With this kit you can keep the factory MAF case and it's cheap plus you can get away with just an upgraded smic if you don't wish to run very high boost.

I'm about to replace the factory clutch so I haven't dynoed the car yet. Just as an indication, MAF readings peak at 220g/s with a max boost of 1.4bar. I'll probably ask the guy responsible for the custom software if it's safe to get it any higher but the car is very fast as it is now.. :)


Michael


i remember reading about it being a bad choice but i forget why. i think something to do with the way the turbo is cooled...but i could be making that up.

[apexslider]

is this correct, GTRS = GT2860, and the GT28RS = GT2560?

[B6Lovin]

i think the GT2x is the 2560

[apexslider]

i think the GT2x is the 2560

ok, I finally found what I was looking for...kinda. According to ATP the GT28r is a GT2560. I now know the difference between the GT28r and GT28RS. I know the GTRS isn't the GT2560, and I know it isn't the GT2871...but what the hell is it? I'm not finding anything that shows what that turbo actually is. Is GTRS just another name for the GT28RS?

[B6Lovin]

from my understanding,

GTRS = GT2860RS = special exhaust flange on a disco potato.
(GT2860R = disco potato)

and if you didnt know - garrett has a whole thing about turbo nomenclature on their website. lots of mumbo jumbo in there - but the R means ball bearing, and i think the "S" comes from the fact that it's a special production turbo meant only for our engines. basically, in GT2860R -- the GT indicates that its a garrett "GT" seies turbo, the 28 indicates the size of the turbine frame (basicaly, the size in millimeters across the larger diameter of the wheel which the exhaust gases are spinning) and the 60 indicates the size in millimeters of the larger diameter of the compressor wheel (the wheel which pressurizes the air going into the engine). This is why all 28 series turbos have the same size exhaust housing, but the 60 and 71R have different size compressor housings. (compressor = the shiny part) <- i included that for people who might be confused after reading that. lol

[apexslider]

from my understanding,

GTRS = GT2860RS = special exhaust flange on a disco potato.
(GT2860R = disco potato)

and if you didnt know - garrett has a whole thing about turbo nomenclature on their website. lots of mumbo jumbo in there - but the R means ball bearing, and i think the "S" comes from the fact that it's a special production turbo meant only for our engines.

Yeah, I've been doing some reading on there, learned allot. The "S" just means that it needs to be noted the specific turbo is different from the others in the same family, not necessarily because of our engines. And the "RS" is the Disco Potato. But I couldn't find a definite answer on the GTRS being the Disco Potato, especially when ATP says the GT28r is actually a GT2560...just a bit confusing for a noob. I get all the sizing and that type of stuff, I've just been trying to figure out what the hell turbo that was since I've never heard it called that before [up]

[B6Lovin]

ahhhh gotcha.

yeah, i'm clueless too. some turbos just get named up a class because i guess they're at the upper limit of their series, and they may have similar capabilities/characteristics but different dimensions

[apexslider]

I went looking around and found some guys running the GTRS, they also referrenced GT28RS so it would seem it is the same. I sent ATP an email but never heard back. Guess it seems I was the only person alive that didn't know that little tid bit of info!

[Condo]

They are not the same. Read post 99 again.

[apexslider]

They are not the same. Read post 99 again.

I did read it...two problems, one it is not consistant with what the Garrett web site says, and two I asked someone running the GTRS kit if it was a GT2860RS and the said no. Garrett says the only "Disco Potato" is the GT2860RS. According to them the GT2860R does not carry that name. Now, GTRS would indicate to me its a Garrett turbo yet Garrett holds no info on that turbo (GTRS) at all under that name. So I would now be led to believe that turbo is specific for ATP, but I cant get them to answer. So am I to understand the GTRS is not a GT2860 of any kind, R or RS? And if not, what is it?
Here's what Garrett says about the R and RS..
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2860RS_739548_1.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2860R_707160_5.htm

And why ATP calls a GT2560R a GT28r will always boggle my mind. I guess this would all be easier (for me) if there was more consistancy between the manufacture and dealer. This has to be a super easy thing to understand and I'm just missing the obvious...[headbang]

[apexslider]

I talked to Eurocode, very nice guys, and was informed the GTRS is a variation of the GT2860 but not an R or RS. They said it was closer to the RS but still has a different hotside to fit stock location. Glad that's over.... If everything goes right I'm ordering the GT2871 kit from Eurocode next week.

[MSMITTY]

any consultation guys, i went through this debate many times in my head...i've had the B5 with the KO4 pc-16 & decided with the B6, that i didn't want that hard torque spike drive, instead i wanted something with a smoother delivery, but with a nice kick for an every day driver in ny metro area....any way, i went the AWE GT28R kit, i have to say that this kit is very nice & the delivery is super smooth & the car pulls hard right to the red line..i have zero complaints....obviously there are other choices out there if you want big hp/tq #'s, just go with something that best suits your driving habits....my .02, good luck!!

[B6Lovin]

I talked to Eurocode, very nice guys, and was informed the GTRS is a variation of the GT2860 but not an R or RS. They said it was closer to the RS but still has a different hotside to fit stock location. Glad that's over.... If everything goes right I'm ordering the GT2871 kit from Eurocode next week.

well its good to finally know for sure. hahahaha.
i kept looking at the gt2871... but it seemed to me that they weren't making much - if any - more power than the GTRS, and had a slower spool (by 2 or 3 hundred rpm... which is a lot to me. lol)

i'm getting close to completing my kit too though - we'll have to compare setups after we're both done.
i go for a baseline dyno next week too.... it'll be embarrassing cuz i'm going with a stage 4 corrado and a URs6 converted to RS2... but it'll still be fun. hahaha

[apexslider]

well its good to finally know for sure. hahahaha.
i kept looking at the gt2871... but it seemed to me that they weren't making much - if any - more power than the GTRS, and had a slower spool (by 2 or 3 hundred rpm... which is a lot to me. lol)

i'm getting close to completing my kit too though - we'll have to compare setups after we're both done.
i go for a baseline dyno next week too.... it'll be embarrassing cuz i'm going with a stage 4 corrado and a URs6 converted to RS2... but it'll still be fun. hahaha

dont feel bad, I'm taking mine to get a baseline too...the same place I dyno'd my 400hp vrt and my 460hp Cobra. I like the 2871 because I love me some race gas and that's probably where I'll see the difference. But for city driving it help keep me honest with later spool [drive]

[diagnosticator]

I'm late to this discussion, but your original post is missing the GT2554R, a dual ball bearing water cooled turbo comparable in size to a K-04, but spools faster, and has better efficiency with an extended top end capability. This turbo is the unit that would be worth consideration and answers the questions you conclude your op with.
If the GT2554R has already been discussed in this thread, please disregard.

[apexslider]

I'm late to this discussion, but your original post is missing the GT2554R, a dual ball bearing water cooled turbo comparable in size to a K-04, but spools faster, and has better efficiency with an extended top end capability. This turbo is the unit that would be worth consideration and answers the questions you conclude your op with.
If the GT2554R has already been discussed in this thread, please disregard.

I was told depending on the k04 you went with you could get the same results.

[B6Lovin]

I was told depending on the k04 you went with you could get the same results.

you'll pay out your butt for that k04 though. i'm assuming you're referring to a special one like JJ's k04-19...

diagnosticator is one SMART guy - his advice is some of the best on the site... if you really want to be enlightened, just read through his posts.

[apexslider]

you'll pay out your butt for that k04 though. i'm assuming you're referring to a special one like JJ's k04-19...

diagnosticator is one SMART guy - his advice is some of the best on the site... if you really want to be enlightened, just read through his posts.

Thats good to know. It's always nice knowing who you can believe and who you want to stay away from. Especially in this industry, everyone has "thee" setup that looks great on paper or a website...

Is there any way (not sure of the legalities) that we can post the info from Garretts site regarding Turbo Tech in this sticky? I really thought that was great info. I'm not sure how Intellectual Property Rights work with info on websites...so I dont want to just start cutting and pasting.

[B6Lovin]

no clue - but i mean... if you learn something from a book, and post it online - its not illegal

i guess to be safe you could credit garrett/honeywell for all information that you take from their site, and provide a link back. seeing as how garrett turbos seem to be the most popular aside from borg-warner i do think it would be very valuable information to have on the site.

[apexslider]

I just did this instead...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2260224#post2260224

[diagnosticator]

I just did this instead...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2260224#post2260224

Good move, I was going to suggest that, but you did it first, avoids any copyright problems.

[TonyD]

I've been thinking about a turbo upgrade for a while. I just want to get some more info from more people. A few questions:

1.How much WHP will a K04 add over a Neuspeed chip, Ecode Test pipe, and Neuspeed Exhaust?

2. What is the MOST you could get out of a K04 with any other mods you need to add like FMIC, Meth, whatever.

[apexslider]

I've been thinking about a turbo upgrade for a while. I just want to get some more info from more people. A few questions:

1.How much WHP will a K04 add over a Neuspeed chip, Ecode Test pipe, and Neuspeed Exhaust?

2. What is the MOST you could get out of a K04 with any other mods you need to add like FMIC, Meth, whatever.

I think someone was saying its possible to get upwards of 250whp with a K04, depending on the trim, and ALL supporting mods. If you read back a few pages I think its talked about. As for how much more power it will make, I've heard 40chp. Some one asked me this, so now I'll ask you; why do you want to get a bigger small turbo? If your thinking FMIC and meth, just go BT or BAT!!

[Condo]

K04 is 250hp at the crank, not at the wheels. There isn't really much of a HP boost from going K04, just a much improved torque curve.

[B6Lovin]

Some one asked me this, so now I'll ask you; why do you want to get a bigger small turbo? If your thinking FMIC and meth, just go BT or BAT!!

amen

/thread

[apexslider]

K04 is 250hp at the crank, not at the wheels. There isn't really much of a HP boost from going K04, just a much improved torque curve.

I was going off of a few things I read on another audi forum as well as post #91 in this thread. but I did confuse chp and whp

[TonyD]

I just don't want to deal with internals and such.

[Condo]

You'll be fine with a GTRS on stock internals.

[apexslider]

I was told stock internals are good up to about 330-350awhp...is that accurate? Of course that depends on the quality of tune and how the car is driven, but is that at least a good general figure?

[Condo]

I think it's somewhere in that area or maybe a little lower. I've read that IE rods are good to 400awhp.

[apexslider]

Is the stock bottom end good to 8500rpm? (More then once)

[F16HTON]

Stock internals would not be goot to 8,500 RPMs, the valvetrain will experience "float" because the valvesprings cannot rev that high. Because of the valve float, you will most likely see the rods toss out of the side of the block (you will drop a valve which in turn will kill a piston and kill the rods).

OEM rods are good to about 350 pounds of torque if all other parmeters are in check (air/fuel, EGTs, IATs).

I have been on 100% OEM internals for about 40K miles now and have not had a single issue yet. All but 10 miles on my motor has been on a GT28RS or larger turbo (71R Eliminator).

I have had the Eliminator installed for exactly two years now (30K miles) and have yet to see a single issue with it.

I beat on the car pretty hard when i drive it too.

I do recommend swapping out the rods if you have the resources to do it. At the minimum you can go with the Intergrated Engineering 19mm wristpin rods and retain your OEM pistons and bearings.

[TonyD]

What is essentially everything I need for the GTRS compared to the K04? A lot more is involved too, thats why I'm leaning towards the K04.

[diagnosticator]

"apexslider" quote:"
I was told stock internals are good up to about 330-350awhp...is that accurate? Of course that depends on the quality of tune and how the car is driven, but is that at least a good general figure?"


No, IMO. While there are many tuned stock internals AMB 1.8Ts that have been reliable so far, (and more than a few grenades also,) the use of cast pistons in the AMB limits the durability at higher than stock power levels compared to forged pistons, and there are other factors involved as well. For example, the Euro BEX 1.8T, stock output is ~190 PS as rated, and uses forged internals. (the TT225 is forged internals in addition,) While the BEX does not need to comply with ULEV emissions, the higher cost of forged internals is not expended without good reason by the factory.
The main reason cast pistons are used in the AMB, is for emissions rating ULEV.

[Condo]

What is essentially everything I need for the GTRS compared to the K04? A lot more is involved too, thats why I'm leaning towards the K04.

Most of the required mods are the same. Exhuast, FMIC, injectors, upgraded TIP, clutch, test pipe or HFC. Exhaust manifold is recommended or both too.

[TonyD]

Most of the required mods are the same. Exhuast, FMIC, injectors, upgraded TIP, clutch, test pipe or HFC. Exhaust manifold is recommended or both too.

Yeah, but the FMIC is more required for the GTRS where as it's not completely necessary for the K04. Same with the manifold.

[Condo]

True but they still help a lot. Especially the FMIC with the heat in Cali. Just look for deals in the classifieds.

[apexslider]

No, IMO. While there are many tuned stock internals AMB 1.8Ts that have been reliable so far, (and more than a few grenades also,) the use of cast pistons in the AMB limits the durability at higher than stock power levels compared to forged pistons, and there are other factors involved as well. For example, the Euro BEX 1.8T, stock output is ~190 PS as rated, and uses forged internals. (the TT225 is forged internals in addition,) While the BEX does not need to comply with ULEV emissions, the higher cost of forged internals is not expended without good reason by the factory.
The main reason cast pistons are used in the AMB, is for emissions rating ULEV.

I wasn't aware of that, and it makes sense. The last few FI cars I've owned had forged internals, so I wonder about this one. I wonder if insurance covers your motor if you blow it up? [cool]

[apexslider]

Yeah, but the FMIC is more required for the GTRS where as it's not completely necessary for the K04. Same with the manifold.

A new manifold isn't required for the GTRS. You may be thinking of the full GT28RS. Of course a higher flowing one is always better. As for the FMIC, I would consider that money well spent. You can never go wrong with a proven cooling mod like that on an FI car

[starfriend]

hope i dont do anything wrong when i ask that, but could any of your guys running GTRS, please posta a "roll" from 2nd or\and 3rd gear? id really like to see how the acceleration looks on the speedometer.

Thanks a lot,

- star

[TonyD]

Alright, so I'm making the list of what I need for the BT build. This is what I've come up with so far and any suggestions/add-ons are welcome. I'm tired so I know I'm forgetting a lot of things.

- Racetec FMIC
- Neuspeed inlet pipe
- GT2871R or GT3071R- which one would you guys go for?
- Bosch 440cc injectors

Now what tuning should I use for this turbo? And what manifold?

I already have a Neuspeed exhaust/Ecode test pipe and a southbend FE clutch. Going to have to get rid of my Neuspeed chip.

[a4darkness]

Was wondering if you'd chime in with this...

http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?products_id=701


I'm late to this discussion, but your original post is missing the GT2554R, a dual ball bearing water cooled turbo comparable in size to a K-04, but spools faster, and has better efficiency with an extended top end capability. This turbo is the unit that would be worth consideration and answers the questions you conclude your op with.
If the GT2554R has already been discussed in this thread, please disregard.

[apexslider]

Alright, so I'm making the list of what I need for the BT build. This is what I've come up with so far and any suggestions/add-ons are welcome. I'm tired so I know I'm forgetting a lot of things.

- Racetec FMIC
- Neuspeed inlet pipe
- GT2871R or GT3071R- which one would you guys go for?
- Bosch 440cc injectors

Now what tuning should I use for this turbo? And what manifold?

I already have a Neuspeed exhaust/Ecode test pipe and a southbend FE clutch. Going to have to get rid of my Neuspeed chip.

if you go GT3071R you better add pistons and rods to your list. My understanding is the stock 19mm wrist pin wont hold up ot that power, and neither will the rods. As for the manifold, I hear good things about 034's and APR's. For tuning I would look to Revo or go Unitronic (sp?). But all this also depends on your budget....

[Condo]

If you go with the 3071r you'll need IE rods but pistons aren't absolutely needed. Just check Shawn's thread. As for manifolds you have a few options. You could go with the ATP manifold that Shawn has or the SPA manifold found here (http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190810). You could get a custom made or Full-Race tubular manifold. As for tuning I'd go with REVO for both turbos. You'll want to go with 550cc injectors and a 3" MAF if you go with the 3071r. The 430cc genesis injectors and stock MAF will work perfect with the 2871r.

You'll also need a custom TIP with the 3071r.

[TonyD]

So essentially the 2871 is a lot easier as I dont need a custom TIP or MAF and I don't NEEd to build internals, although reccommend?

[Condo]

So essentially the 2871 is a lot easier as I dont need a custom TIP or MAF and I don't NEEd to build internals, although reccommend?

It's easier in the sense that there is less leg work getting everything figured out. You can find the 3" MAF housing pretty cheap and you can put together a custom TIP for less than a used Neuspeed TIP.

I have my parts list 99% complete and Shawn posted his parts list in his thread.

Greg's been running on stock internals for years and he's been fine.

I'd at least do IE rods for piece of mind with either setup.

[TonyD]

Yeah, I'd do internals probably 3 months after the BT upgrade. I'll check out those parts lists. Thanks for the help condo!

[Condo]

Here is a link to Shawn's parts list (http://audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2108408&postcount=58). There would be a few different things if you went with a tubular manifold. I can get you that list too if you need it.

[TonyD]

And that's just for the turbo. Man this is going to be a long process! Should be fun though.

What turbo do you have?

[Condo]

I just ordered a twin scroll 3076r. It's supposed to ship in about 1 to 2 weeks because of the polished housing. I have a GTRS for now.

[diagnosticator]

I just ordered a twin scroll 3076r. It's supposed to ship in about 1 to 2 weeks because of the polished housing. I have a GTRS for now.

Have you sourced a suitable exhaust manifold for the Twin Scroll GT3076R? That would be cylinders 1 and 4 to one scroll and cylinders 2 and 3 to the other scroll. The cylinder exhaust runner for the pairs above, would be single isolated runners all the way to the turbine housing flange, with 4 seperate ports terminating at the turbine inlet flange. Or, as close to the turbine inlet flange as possible.

[Condo]

I'm having the manifold custom made just like how you described.

[diagnosticator]

I'm having the manifold custom made just like how you described.


Cool man! I will be looking forward to the results report!

[diagnosticator]

Was wondering if you'd chime in with this...

http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?products_id=701

Yeah, the tuning concept this turbo is excellent for, is to maximize the low and midrange torque from ~1800 to ~4500 rpm and the "area under the torque curve" for a snappy, fun to drive street setup, instead of the typical tuning focus on extended red line rpms above 6500 rpms and maximum high rpm performance. The emphisis on max rpm, as high as 8500 rpm and the associated turbo sizing required for that leaves the midrange flat and comparitively unresponsive. Not the best setup for a street daily driver IMO.

[Condo]

Cool man! I will be looking forward to the results report!

I'll definitely post up when I get it installed. I'll be running lower boost until I get my engine build completed though.

[a4darkness]

I couldn't agree more. It really appears to be a win. I've been searching everywhere to see if anyone has ever installed one on an A4... or if there's numbers for 034's software.

I wonder if one could use this turbo w/some Revo software since it's a bit more flexible. Only b/c I'd rather go with a tuning company close to me since 034 is up in the Bay Area.

You seem to have some master plan... care to enlighten us? [;)]


Yeah, the tuning concept this turbo is excellent for, is to maximize the low and midrange torque from ~1800 to ~4500 rpm and the "area under the torque curve" for a snappy, fun to drive steet setup, instead of the typical tuning focus on extended red line rpms above 6500 rpms and maximum high rpm performance. The emphisis on max rpm, as high as 8500 rpm and the associated turbo sizing required for that leaves the midrange flat and comparitively unresponsive. Not the best setup for a street daily driver IMO.

[diagnosticator]

I couldn't agree more. It really appears to be a win. I've been searching everywhere to see if anyone has ever installed one on an A4... or if there's numbers for 034's software.

I wonder if one could use this turbo w/some Revo software since it's a bit more flexible. Only b/c I'd rather go with a tuning company close to me since 034 is up in the Bay Area.

You seem to have some master plan... care to enlighten us? [;)]

I know of one installation done several years ago, but I don't have the specifics on who it was now. I plan on running the GT2554R on OE software at first, then later with Revo K-04 tuning and TT225 injectors. The Revo SPS3 adjustable setup would be the most flexible software as you stated.
Last year, ATP assured me that a Eliminator turbine housing was available for this turbo, to bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold. I recently tried to confirm that but now they say no. So, a T25 flange exhaust manifold or an adapter plate will be required to bolt up the stock manifold. Adapting the turbine discharge flange is also needed.
Calculations of the required mass air flow needed for ~195 hp @ ~4500 rev/min, (~23 lbm/min) and 2.0 pressure ratio, place the operating point on the compressor map in the 65% efficiency island, in the upper right region of the compressor map. At lower mass air flow/lower pressure ratio, the effiency rises to 70+ percent, an operating points that occurs most of the time on the street. (Higher compressor effiency results in less charge air heating for equivalent pressure ratios, and lower turbine back pressure for equivalent boost pressures.)

[b5power]

nice THREAD!

im might be planning on getting a GT2x for my tiptronic just to be on the safe side, but im just wondering if a GTRS can be ok to run too?

[9744RR]

nice THREAD!

im might be planning on getting a GT2x for my tiptronic just to be on the safe side, but im just wondering if a GTRS can be ok to run too?

GTRS is okay for the tranny since you won't running at full boost and WOT all the time. In the "S" mode the tranny keeps the revs up where the GTRS likes it most (~ 3000 rpms + or -). Also, don't launch your car if you're a tip and want to save your tranny. GT2x is an oil cooled turbo whereas the GTRS is a coolant cooled turbo (better).

[b5power]

GTRS is okay for the tranny since you won't running at full boost and WOT all the time. In the "S" mode the tranny keeps the revs up where the GTRS likes it most (~ 3000 rpms + or -). Also, don't launch your car if you're a tip and want to save your tranny. GT2x is an oil cooled turbo whereas the GTRS is a coolant cooled turbo (better).

thanks...

i heard mika tune was not as good as unitronics is that true, if so whats the website for unitronics? since revo software doesnt make it for b5 models and im wondering if you can tell me what was your 1/4 mile run if you ever went to the track. thks

[a4darkness]

I gotta say, you know your stuff. This is gonna be one incredible setup. I hope you document it along the way.

The more I dig into this universe, I'm leaning more towards a moderately tuned GTRS setup and away from a K04 / similar alternative... partially due to the added power, but more so b/c that it's a packaged solution which will be far easier for a novice like myself.

Regardless, this is all very interesting to me... great info!


I know of one installation done several years ago, but I don't have the specifics on who it was now. I plan on running the GT2554R on OE software at first, then later with Revo K-04 tuning and TT225 injectors. The Revo SPS3 adjustable setup would be the most flexible software as you stated.
Last year, ATP assured me that a Eliminator turbine housing was available for this turbo, to bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold. I recently tried to confirm that but now they say no. So, a T25 flange exhaust manifold or an adapter plate will be required to bolt up the stock manifold. Adapting the turbine discharge flange is also needed.
Calculations of the required mass air flow needed for ~195 hp @ ~4500 rev/min, (~23 lbm/min) and 2.0 pressure ratio, place the operating point on the compressor map in the 65% efficiency island, in the upper right region of the compressor map. At lower mass air flow/lower pressure ratio, the effiency rises to 70+ percent, an operating points that occurs most of the time on the street. (Higher compressor effiency results in less charge air heating for equivalent pressure ratios, and lower turbine back pressure for equivalent boost pressures.)

[9744RR]

thanks...

i heard mika tune was not as good as unitronics is that true, if so whats the website for unitronics? since revo software doesnt make it for b5 models and im wondering if you can tell me what was your 1/4 mile run if you ever went to the track. thks


This car is never going to see a track since it is my wife's car, but it can certainly hold its own now with the GTRS. As for Mika and unitronics, I can't tell you since I don't know much about them. GL.

[starfriend]

no one of you GTRS guy gonna post a pic of the acceleration? would be most awesome too check it out ;)

[a4darkness]

Just out of curiosity, is there a way to retain the rev limiter at a certain RPM to ensure there's no damage to the internals?


Stock internals would not be good to 8,500 RPMs, the valvetrain will experience "float" because the valvesprings cannot rev that high. Because of the valve float, you will most likely see the rods toss out of the side of the block (you will drop a valve which in turn will kill a piston and kill the rods).

[diagnosticator]

I gotta say, you know your stuff. This is gonna be one incredible setup. I hope you document it along the way.

The more I dig into this universe, I'm leaning more towards a moderately tuned GTRS setup and away from a K04 / similar alternative... partially due to the added power, but more so b/c that it's a packaged solution which will be far easier for a novice like myself.

Regardless, this is all very interesting to me... great info!

Yes, that is an important consideration. I am annoyed with ATP, they originally assured me that the GT2554 could be fitted with an Eliminator turbine housing. Now, other developments have become available that where not last year, specifically the Dual scroll turbine housing and exhaust manifolds arranged to acccomdate the DS turbine setup. So, I have to weigh the situation in review carefully. Fortunatley, I have a spare K-03 on hand if the original unit expires before the replacement setup is on hand.

[a4darkness]

[** laughing **] Expires... I love it.

if the original unit expires

Agreed... it's going to be very interesting to see what pops up this year in terms of turbo options. More fun for us! It's funny that so few on AW are running GTRS setups considering it's a next-best option to the K04. Food for thought. I want more info.

Yes, that is an important consideration. I am annoyed with ATP, they originally assured me that the GT2554 could be fitted with an Eliminator turbine housing. Now, other developments have become available that where not last year, specifically the Dual scroll turbine housing and exhaust manifolds arranged to accommodate the DS turbine setup. So, I have to weigh the situation in review carefully.

[moo5e]

is there any GIAC software that can support the GTRS or do you have to go with REVO?

Like so many people, im debating between K04 and GTRS(actually i have a k04 in my living room). GTRS seems like such a better choice but when i first got my car i went GIAC big injector. Now i feel like if i go GTRS its like i threw that money away. any suggestions for me to utilize the GIAC with the gtrs?

[b5power]

Does anyone here know if my 98 audi a4 1.8t AEB Tiptronic with 132,000 miles can hold a GTRS?

[B6Lovin]

does it have hands?


really though - as long as you've kept up with maintenance you should be fine. just make sure your car is up to snuff before you go modifying it. that's the mistake most people make... they buy a crappy car to modify, or they modify their car that already isnt running right... you want a solid rig before you start bolting on new parts.

[b5power]

does it have hands?


really though - as long as you've kept up with maintenance you should be fine. just make sure your car is up to snuff before you go modifying it. that's the mistake most people make... they buy a crappy car to modify, or they modify their car that already isnt running right... you want a solid rig before you start bolting on new parts.



hahha does it have hands....

yeah im planning to change my timing belt (i know lol) at 132,000...and get a TC upgrade for the tiptronic. and go from there. hopefully...

[GraysonF]

if both the GTRS and the GT2871R have good tuning and ecode sells an "ultimate solution", why do more people run the GTRS than the 2871R? I understand that upgrading internals isn't completely necessary for the 71R, but is somewhat recomended, is that the only thing holding most back from the extra hp that the 71 has to offer? Or is it the fact that it's later spooling than the GTRS? i mean realisticaly, both aren't low RPM spooling turbos, and the 2871R spools 300ish RPM later, so why do most people personally run the GTRS over the GT2871R?

I mean for an extra 100 dollars, why not get the GT2871R?

[diagnosticator]

GTRS is okay for the tranny since you won't running at full boost and WOT all the time. In the "S" mode the tranny keeps the revs up where the GTRS likes it most (~ 3000 rpms + or -). Also, don't launch your car if you're a tip and want to save your tranny. GT2x is an oil cooled turbo whereas the GTRS is a coolant cooled turbo (better).

The GT2X is NOT a dual ball bearing turbo. It uses conventional sleave bushings and an axial thrust bearing. Therefore, I don't see any benifit to the GT2X over an easier to fit K-04.

[diagnosticator]

I gotta say, you know your stuff. This is gonna be one incredible setup. I hope you document it along the way.

The more I dig into this universe, I'm leaning more towards a moderately tuned GTRS setup and away from a K04 / similar alternative... partially due to the added power, but more so b/c that it's a packaged solution which will be far easier for a novice like myself.

Regardless, this is all very interesting to me... great info!

Yeah, compatability of installation is a key concern. The ATP Eliminator turbine housing makes the case for the GT series Garrett turbos replacing the triple K/Borg-Warner OE configurations.

[apexslider]

if both the GTRS and the GT2871R have good tuning and ecode sells an "ultimate solution", why do more people run the GTRS than the 2871R? I understand that upgrading internals isn't completely necessary for the 71R, but is somewhat recomended, is that the only thing holding most back from the extra hp that the 71 has to offer? Or is it the fact that it's later spooling than the GTRS? i mean realisticaly, both aren't low RPM spooling turbos, and the 2871R spools 300ish RPM later, so why do most people personally run the GTRS over the GT2871R?

I mean for an extra 100 dollars, why not get the GT2871R?

The reasons I've heard is the 71R doesn't really offer that much more useable power, and for guys that are looking for a little more juice but dont want the feel of a BAT they go GTRS. I personally went with the 71R as I plan on building the motor in the next few months and wanted something with a tad more top end. That and I'm also a bit curious to see where the limit of the 71R eliminator kit lies.

[GraysonF]

The reasons I've heard is the 71R doesn't really offer that much more useable power, and for guys that are looking for a little more juice but dont want the feel of a BAT they go GTRS. I personally went with the 71R as I plan on building the motor in the next few months and wanted something with a tad more top end. That and I'm also a bit curious to see where the limit of the 71R eliminator kit lies.

it doesn't offer that much more usable power because it doesn't spool until later correct? seems like to me though i'd deal with the later spool for the extra power

[apexslider]

it doesn't offer that much more usable power because it doesn't spool until later correct? seems like to me though i'd deal with the later spool for the extra power

basically. The GTRS offers a "smoother" torque curve that comes in lower making it more usable. But I'm with you, I dont mind waiting a tad longer for the magic to happen.

[offboost]

Im new to this thread but been reading all the posts, Im planning on going BT route and have a target of 350 awhp...and I was led to this thread for researching...all great info, till now I'm targeting the 2871r complete solution...but I haven't really seen many people pushing that high on that turbo, i see atp rates it at 450chp...other places rated at 400...is the 2871r capable of pusing that high ??

[BARRY]

The reasons I've heard is the 71R doesn't really offer that much more useable power, and for guys that are looking for a little more juice but dont want the feel of a BAT they go GTRS. I personally went with the 71R as I plan on building the motor in the next few months and wanted something with a tad more top end. That and I'm also a bit curious to see where the limit of the 71R eliminator kit lies.


what do you exactly mean? because our engines don't rev as high?

the gt2871r is a great turbo. i've used gt28r and gt2871r .64 and its a world of a difference. not on my audi though, on a few drift cars that i've tuned. totally different animal completely.

[a4darkness]

Yup... better for the daily driver as well which is why I'm interested in a GTRS. It's all about your end goals. I'm sure a K04 would be enough but I want a bit extra... you know, just for kicks.


basically. The GTRS offers a "smoother" torque curve that comes in lower making it more usable. But I'm with you, I dont mind waiting a tad longer for the magic to happen.

[apexslider]

what do you exactly mean? because our engines don't rev as high?

the gt2871r is a great turbo. i've used gt28r and gt2871r .64 and its a world of a difference. not on my audi though, on a few drift cars that i've tuned. totally different animal completely.

that's what I've been told. But I'm not all that sure the little turbine housing is capable of holding more then 7200rpm from the motor without creating too much heat, or just getting maxed out. I haven't heard of any one with a built motor/head that revs past 8000rpm using the 71R eliminator.

You say you've used the GT28R and GT2871R...but I'm pretty sure those were different then the GTRS/GT71R eliminators. The non eliminator style your talking about does not use the factory K03 turbine housing that both the eliminators do. But in true full size, yes those turbos are two very different animals.

[apexslider]

Im new to this thread but been reading all the posts, Im planning on going BT route and have a target of 350 awhp...and I was led to this thread for researching...all great info, till now I'm targeting the 2871r complete solution...but I haven't really seen many people pushing that high on that turbo, i see atp rates it at 450chp...other places rated at 400...is the 2871r capable of pusing that high ??

I've read the 2871R complete solution can go that high with supporting mods. But there is also a complete solution eliminator kit that uses the GT71R, that set up will not reach 350awhp. From what I've learned to get over the 300awhp mark for a daily driver on pump gas your going to have to dig a bit deeper into your pockets then just a turbo.

[offboost]

I've read the 2871R complete solution can go that high with supporting mods. But there is also a complete solution eliminator kit that uses the GT71R, that set up will not reach 350awhp. From what I've learned to get over the 300awhp mark for a daily driver on pump gas your going to have to dig a bit deeper into your pockets then just a turbo.

Guarantee Im going deeper than just an upgraded turbo, but at the moment Im looking for the right turbo to handle that power goal and at the same time not be maxed out....Anyhow, maybe im mistook what you said but I think you mentionned the same turbo twice...unless you ment the eliminator 71r (that bolts up to the k03 manifold) or the t3 housing 2871r (which requires a manifold like the APR) is that what you meant ?

[BARRY]

Guarantee Im going deeper than just an upgraded turbo, but at the moment Im looking for the right turbo to handle that power goal and at the same time not be maxed out....Anyhow, maybe im mistook what you said but I think you mentionned the same turbo twice...unless you ment the eliminator 71r (that bolts up to the k03 manifold) or the t3 housing 2871r (which requires a manifold like the APR) is that what you meant ?


all these turbo's are rated as, crank HP, not WHP.

that being said. the GT2871R .64 can goto 350whp easy in a T28 housing configuration. Reaching 350whp with that turbo you're at about the limits of that turbo. I've seen that turbo go 375-380whp with headwork and cams in a T28 configuration.

If you want to make 350whp and have more breathing room for expansion you will need to upgrade to a GT30R. with the GT30R you will be required to go with a completely aftermarket manifold and downpipe. This turbo does not bolt into the factory location. You will reach 350whp easily, and have room to goto 400whp if need be.

side question...
the GT2871R eliminator will bolt up to the factory turbo manifold AND factory cat/aftermarket testpipe?

[apexslider]

Guarantee Im going deeper than just an upgraded turbo, but at the moment Im looking for the right turbo to handle that power goal and at the same time not be maxed out....Anyhow, maybe im mistook what you said but I think you mentionned the same turbo twice...unless you ment the eliminator 71r (that bolts up to the k03 manifold) or the t3 housing 2871r (which requires a manifold like the APR) is that what you meant ?

no, when I used 2871R I was reffering to the T28 flange turbo, and the 71R as the K03 flange. My confusion came when I spoke with Eurocode and they call both of them the complete solution...I didn't get that one at all. But like Barry said, T28 is the flange style if you want power.

[apexslider]

side question...
the GT2871R eliminator will bolt up to the factory turbo manifold AND factory cat/aftermarket testpipe?

Yes. But they hesitate to call it a GT2871R eliminator, they as in atp. I was corrected a few times...which is cool since its really not, but hell, that's how it was posted on their site.

[dougyfresh]

Does anyone here know if my 98 audi a4 1.8t AEB Tiptronic with 132,000 miles can hold a GTRS?



really though - as long as you've kept up with maintenance you should be fine. just make sure your car is up to snuff before you go modifying it. that's the mistake most people make... they buy a crappy car to modify, or they modify their car that already isnt running right... you want a solid rig before you start bolting on new parts.

In addition to the regular maintenance... Start with a compression and leak-down test to gauge the mechanical health of your engine. If those numbers are low [and out of spec] then I would advise against installing a GTRS without an engine rebuild.

[IceMole]

I was poking around looking at turbos and found:

K24
Thoroughly inspected and then Remanufactured to better-than-factory specs. 0.48 A/R turbine housing. 0.42 A/R compressor housing. 35 mm compressor wheel. 4-bolt VW-type flange. Internally wastagted.

Anyone ever hear of this?

[converted2audi]

Is the South Bend HD Street Series OFE Stage 3 clutch enough for the GTRS kit or is the OFE SS the minimum for the GTRS?

[a4darkness]

Here's a good breakdown of the options...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120598


Is the South Bend HD Street Series OFE Stage 3 clutch enough for the GTRS kit or is the OFE SS the minimum for the GTRS?

[converted2audi]

according to that thread the OFE HD SS would be pushed to its max with a gtrs setup....so does that make it usable for the gtrs setup or is the OFE SS required??

[a4darkness]

I'd love to know the answer to that one as well. Haven't gotten quite that far yet. Anyone else care to weigh in? TIA


according to that thread the OFE HD SS would be pushed to its max with a gtrs setup....so does that make it usable for the gtrs setup or is the OFE SS required??

[diagnosticator]

I was poking around looking at turbos and found:

K24
Thoroughly inspected and then Remanufactured to better-than-factory specs. 0.48 A/R turbine housing. 0.42 A/R compressor housing. 35 mm compressor wheel. 4-bolt VW-type flange. Internally wastagted.

Anyone ever hear of this?

Sure, the K24 was used on the 5 cylinder Audi 2.1/2.2 liter engines. It's a larger machine than a K16 or K-03/04. The A/R specs are only comparable for that turbo frame size, and cannot be compared to a smaller turbo like the K-03/K-04. (Area of volute discharge cross section / Radius of the cross section center line to turbo shaft center line.)

The 1.6 Turbo Diesel used a K16.

[B6Lovin]

i thought the old 5cyl turbo audis had a massive external gate -- not an internal one...

all the URs6's that i've ever seen have huge wastegates sticking up in the middle of the engine bay

[diagnosticator]

i thought the old 5cyl turbo audis had a massive external gate -- not an internal one...

all the URs6's that i've ever seen have huge wastegates sticking up in the middle of the engine bay

Yes, you are correct. But the turbo is still a K24, without an internal wastegate.

[jbrown7815]

Fantastic thread, read every post, and learned so much. Thanks everyone!!

[boy412]

This turbo can be tweaked a bit, and if the driver has the money to spend, tuners like MTM have produced K04's with supporting mods that are good for as much power as a BT setup.

Can someone please clarify this statement? Is MTM doing anything to the internals of the K04 or is it more a matter of their software (and supporting hardware like FMIC, hi-flow cat, exhaust, etc)?

Or maybe another way to ask this question is how the K04's can be modified to be more fun? I have quite a bit of $ invested in MTM right now and don't want to start over with a Garret setup.

Great thread...glad to see it stickied!

boy412

[boy412]

honestly if your going BT and know your going to want it big, build your engine first

Can you expand on this a bit? Specifically what components are we talking about here?

Thanks mate...

boy412

[pondside36]

Can you expand on this a bit? Specifically what components are we talking about here?

Thanks mate...

boy412

Clint is talking about strengthening your engine... rods, pistons, stroking, crankshaft... it all depends on how far you want to go. The thread he made titled "So you want to build you engine" has the info in it...[wrench]

[pondside36]

Stock internals would not be goot to 8,500 RPMs, the valvetrain will experience "float" because the valvesprings cannot rev that high. Because of the valve float, you will most likely see the rods toss out of the side of the block (you will drop a valve which in turn will kill a piston and kill the rods).

OEM rods are good to about 350 pounds of torque if all other parmeters are in check (air/fuel, EGTs, IATs).

I have been on 100% OEM internals for about 40K miles now and have not had a single issue yet. All but 10 miles on my motor has been on a GT28RS or larger turbo (71R Eliminator).

I have had the Eliminator installed for exactly two years now (30K miles) and have yet to see a single issue with it.

I beat on the car pretty hard when i drive it too.

I do recommend swapping out the rods if you have the resources to do it. At the minimum you can go with the Intergrated Engineering 19mm wristpin rods and retain your OEM pistons and bearings.

Oh yeah.. this is the post I was looking for.. any more imput on this setup with stock internals...

[A4natomical]

Oh yeah.. this is the post I was looking for.. any more imput on this setup with stock internals...

yea same here. im running the GT28r at 18psi on a custom tune
and from what i've read it seems as if they are prone to grenading the 1.8T. but from what i've heard, the engines that blew were running high psi. so my question is, will i be safe if i continue to run it at 18psi (which is fairly conservative) or would it be smart to do a little internal work (which i can easily do myself). should i look into just rods or a little more?

the power band of the gt28r is perfect for me, it gives me decent
power without running out of breath at higher rpm,
but without too much lag like the gtrs.

[a4darkness]

Since you're local, I'm curious... who did your tune?


yea same here. im running the GT28r at 18psi on a custom tune
and from what i've read it seems as if they are prone to grenading the 1.8T. but from what i've heard, the engines that blew were running high psi. so my question is, will i be safe if i continue to run it at 18psi (which is fairly conservative) or would it be smart to do a little internal work (which i can easily do myself). should i look into just rods or a little more?

the power band of the gt28r is perfect for me, it gives me decent
power without running out of breath at higher rpm,
but without too much lag like the gtrs.

[A4natomical]

Since you're local, I'm curious... who did your tune?

the p.o. did. not sure.

[a4darkness]

How mysterious. Thanks anyway Kyle.

[A4natomical]

How mysterious. Thanks anyway Kyle.

exactly what i think.....

[B6Lovin]

wasn't sure where to answer your questions -- so i'm posting this in both threads lol.

let me start by saying that i'm still slightly foggy on which turbo is which since there are so many "28" series turbos, and that i'm assuming you're saying that you're running the one which comes in the AWE kit... the GT28R, which I am going to refer to as the 28r.. if that's wrong i'm sorry - and someone please correct me (and post a list of all the common 28 series turbos along with their nicknames so i can see it all at once and finally learn it right)

anyways, you should be ok running 18psi assuming you have a sound, conservative tune... the only caveat however, is that every engine is different.. every car will take to the same mods in different ways, and I'm sure some are more likely to blow the hell up than others.

from what i understand the 28r seems to have a problem with blowing motors up due to the torque spike it throws at them. sometimes it's not how much power you make, but rather when and how quickly you make it...

think of it this way: if someone were to kick you in the shins with a set amount of force (for the sake of this argument we'll pretend we have a shin kicking machine... no, i don't know why you'd want one) it'll suck.. really really bad. getting all that force quickly, and in a short amount of time will no doubt have you jumping around on one leg muttering words you wouldn't say around your mom.

now if this same machine was designed to slowly deliver this same force, perhaps by "pressing" on your shin - it might become uncomfortable as it continues to press, but it won't hurt nearly as bad as getting it all in one swift blow.

in this same way a smaller turbo that has similar power delivery to a k03 or k04 but delivers much more of it on the whole can very well destroy our soft-as-butter stock rods, and consequently send them flying through the side of your block. that's not to say that a torque spike is the ONLY reason you can bend, break, twist, or otherwise destroy a rod and send it flying (or even that in EVERY situation a torque spike will result in a rod failure)... just that it's one of them, and it seems to me the one which people encounter most often with the 28r.

like i said though, 18psi on a marginally larger turbo with a conservative tune should be just fine. if you've got a good intercooler and exhaust i see no reason other than freak accident that you should run into blown motor troubles.

[B6Lovin]

according to that thread the OFE HD SS would be pushed to its max with a gtrs setup....so does that make it usable for the gtrs setup or is the OFE SS required??

I'd love to know the answer to that one as well. Haven't gotten quite that far yet. Anyone else care to weigh in? TIA


well i'm pretty sure the OFE HD is what's used in the AWE Stg. 3 kit (metal on one side of the clutch and organic on the other, southbend branded pressure plate, AWE lwfw)... and if it is -- no, it wasn't enough for a GTRS. not for mine anyways. the clutch handled daily driving and WOT runs from a roll with no issues. it couldn't take a launch though... spun it through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd... let off once i put it in 4th. i was moving, but barely... and almost stalled upon putting it in 4th gear (not going fast enough)

fyi, there is no OFE HD SS.. that would require you to have 2 pressure plates lol.

I'd go with an OFE SS or FE SS on a GTRS... I'm going to be running a FE SS on my car, but i'm upgrading from a GTRS to a 3071R...

[F16HTON]

HD and SS are the exact same pressure plates, they both are derived from a Sachs Superset clutch.

Soutbend modifies the pivot points to acheive the desired clamp loads.

[B6Lovin]

^ahhhhhh. that makes much more sense. thank you

[AudiA4_20T]

yea same here. im running the GT28r at 18psi on a custom tune
and from what i've read it seems as if they are prone to grenading the 1.8T. but from what i've heard, the engines that blew were running high psi. so my question is, will i be safe if i continue to run it at 18psi (which is fairly conservative) or would it be smart to do a little internal work (which i can easily do myself). should i look into just rods or a little more?

the power band of the gt28r is perfect for me, it gives me decent
power without running out of breath at higher rpm,
but without too much lag like the gtrs.

Well Jeff Lee doesnt really venture over here much anymore but he was the one who helped AWE develop the 28r kit. Basically you have a real torquey low end turbo, and this is where the rods aren't happy. B6Lovin described it great, in the end your turbo doesn't stack up to a bigger one, but it gives a swift kick in the beginning. The rods don't like this sudden burst of power and that's what causes them to bend or snap. I think at 18psi you should be fine. If youve been driving the thing for awhile and its happy then your fine.

Should you do rods? Not needed but if you have the $$ and feel like dishing it out for some rods then go for it. I always like seeing built motors lol

[XdelaforceX]

This is the setup I recommend

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 and this http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&relate=1&p=466

Ask for the Delphi 440cc injectors.

greg, with this setup, do you think internals will be required or just a good thing to have? i know upgrading the shortblock is always a good thing, but do you really need it in this case to enjoy what this kit has to offer?
X-eric-X

[nicheracing]

Also, in this GTRS kit here http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 it says that it utilizes the stock manifold in stock location but then in the "kit includes" parts list it includes an ATP manifold. What gives? I sent eurocode an e-mail as well. Beyond the exhaust, what intercooler do you guys recommend with the GTRS for a hot climate like Phoenix?

[A4natomical]

Also, in this GTRS kit here http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 it says that it utilizes the stock manifold in stock location but then in the "kit includes" parts list it includes an ATP manifold. What gives? I sent eurocode an e-mail as well. Beyond the exhaust, what intercooler do you guys recommend with the GTRS for a hot climate like Phoenix?

evolution raceworks competition

[michpan]

The ATP manifold has been designed to allow more flow than the OEM one, that's probably why they prefer using it with their kit. It can replace the OEM one because inlet/outlet wise they have the same dimensions so any turbo designed to fit the factory exhaust manifold will fit the ATP one as well..


Michael

[A4ringedONE8T]

Also, in this GTRS kit here http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504 it says that it utilizes the stock manifold in stock location but then in the "kit includes" parts list it includes an ATP manifold. What gives? I sent eurocode an e-mail as well. Beyond the exhaust, what intercooler do you guys recommend with the GTRS for a hot climate like Phoenix?

In order to make any power with the GTRS/71R, an aftermarket higher flowing manifold is needed (IE: ATP or 034). Without it, EGT's will go out the roof and limit the settings you can run and limit you power by 30-40hp+

[lookaught]

In order to make any power with the GTRS/71R, an aftermarket higher flowing manifold is needed (IE: ATP or 034). Without it, EGT's will go out the roof and limit the settings you can run and limit you power by 30-40hp+

A manifold reduces the EGT? How does that work? 30-40 hp loss w/o one is staggering!

[mnkyA4]

Does anyone know if the K04 can be tuned so that it doesn't have a large spike in the torque band? I know it has that jump but was wondering if it can be tamed dowm so that power comes on more smoothly.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Does anyone know if the K04 can be tuned so that it doesn't have a large spike in the torque band? I know it has that jump but was wondering if it can be tamed dowm so that power comes on more smoothly.

Running a K04 with an ATP or 034 manifold will flatten out and broaden the tq spike

[A4ringedONE8T]

A manifold reduces the EGT? How does that work? 30-40 hp loss w/o one is staggering!

More restriction in the manifold will create higher EGT's

[a4darkness]

It would be interesting to see dyno graphs of a K04 setup before and after installation of one of the aftermarket manifold options.

[mnkyA4]

Running a K04 with an ATP or 034 manifold will flatten out and broaden the tq spike

Thanks for the reply. I'm planning on adding the 034 manifold when I swap out my turbo.

[Kaytek]

Running a K04 with an ATP or 034 manifold will flatten out and broaden the tq spike

What would an ATP or 034 manifold mean for the spool of a K04 or say GT2X? Would it move the powerband further to the 'right', as in higher in rpms? I'm trying to get the best out of my tiptronic but the poor stall speed sucks. That and I really have no use for crazy power once speeds go well beyond the local speed limits. I live in McGuintystan (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/11/street-racing.html) if you're wondering...

Cheers,

Kaytek

[A4ringedONE8T]

It would be interesting to see dyno graphs of a K04 setup before and after installation of one of the aftermarket manifold options.

210whp/266wtq before, 218whp/274wtq w/ the ATP mani, same settings and conditions. Not only did the power and tq increase the area under the curve will increase by at least 10%. I was the first one to experiment with a K04 in a B6 including running meth along with it, and the higher flowing manifold over 3 years ago

[A4ringedONE8T]

What would an ATP or 034 manifold mean for the spool of a K04 or say GT2X? Would it move the powerband further to the 'right', as in higher in rpms? I'm trying to get the best out of my tiptronic but the poor stall speed sucks. That and I really have no use for crazy power once speeds go well beyond the local speed limits. I live in McGuintystan (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/11/street-racing.html) if you're wondering...

Cheers,

Kaytek

A higher flowing mani with a K04 will flatten out and broaden its tq spike as well as help maintain boost another 400-500rpms over not having it. Boost comes on so quick with either the stock or K04 as they are both tiny that I dont think you could even realize a later spool

[mike-2ptzero]

Actually all it will do is move the power band upward in the rpms, it isn't going to widen the tq band seeing that the K04 just cant maintain the spool up rate. As the rate falls off the boost tapers even though the speed of the wheel is still increasing to flow more air.

[KPC1.8TQuat]

Just for clarification is the GT2871R the same as the GT71R? Also, what FMIC would you run with the GTRS elim or GT71R elim kits from Eurocode?

[mike-2ptzero]

Just for clarification is the GT2871R the same as the GT71R? Also, what FMIC would you run with the GTRS elim or GT71R elim kits from Eurocode?

Different. The elims use the smaller compressor housing and a custom exhaust housing that has 3 holes on the flange like the stock K03.


A racetec can be used but a ER comp will do a better job and wont need any modification to the hot side IC pipe.

[KPC1.8TQuat]

Different. The elims use the smaller compressor housing and a custom exhaust housing that has 3 holes on the flange like the stock K03.


So the GT71R is considered an eliminator while the GT2871R is not? Which means the GT71R could mount to the stock manifold or the ATP and 034 Motorsport manifolds. Am I correct here? I just want to know what the difference is between these two.

[mike-2ptzero]

So the GT71R is considered an eliminator while the GT2871R is not? Which means the GT71R could mount to the stock manifold or the ATP and 034 Motorsport manifolds. Am I correct here?

Correct. The GT2871r is a full Garrett turbo with a T25 flange exhaust housing or can be ordered with a T3 flange.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Actually all it will do is move the power band upward in the rpms, it isn't going to widen the tq band seeing that the K04 just cant maintain the spool up rate. As the rate falls off the boost tapers even though the speed of the wheel is still increasing to flow more air.

Because of the manifold dropping the tq spike (and hard boost spike), it keeps the turbo from jumping out of its efficiency range and heating up as much. I promise the graphs looked much different with my identical setups, the only change being the manifold. I will dig them up when I get a chance

[QuattroRocket]

A higher flowing mani with a K04 will flatten out and broaden its tq spike as well as help maintain boost another 400-500rpms over not having it. Boost comes on so quick with either the stock or K04 as they are both tiny that I dont think you could even realize a later spool

So what effect would you predict a equal length tubular exhaust manifold would have on a GT28r setup ?

[A4ringedONE8T]

So what effect would you predict a equal length tubular exhaust manifold would have on a GT28r setup ?

I dont have any personal experience with tubular manifolds so this is based strictly off what Ive read. Tubular manifolds will typically decrease spool time, making the tq spike that a turbo has more prominent (or more abrupt). Opposed to a log manifold where all the cylinder pulses collide inside slowing movement down into the turbo and also slowing exhaust gas velocity which makes for a more laggy spool. The tubular manifold keeps any of the cylinder pulses from going against each other as it directs them all directly into the turbo via the almost parallel collecter runners present on a tube mani. The long, smooth curve runners also give the exhaust gas much more velocity which also helps spool up the turbo. So, IMO, a tubular manifold, comparing it to the results I had with the K04 setup, will also drop EGT's and remove flow restrictions which are present in the stock manifold but it would seem as if it would enhance the characteristics of the K04 I was trying to get rid of.

That may be just a ramble, but its all I got, maybe Mike or Greg can chime in with something more specific to a 28R [up]

[mike-2ptzero]

So what effect would you predict a equal length tubular exhaust manifold would have on a GT28r setup ?

Really hard to say how much more power can be made, but a quick search of "Full-Race vs log" comes up with some results.


these guys found 60whp (http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/sr20det-engines/44120-full-race-vs-log-manifold-sr20det-test.html) going from a log manifold to a FR manifold with a 3040 on a SR20DET.


All i can say is WOW...60whp and 35ft-lbs. Spoolup was almost identical with the Full Race hitting maybe 100 rpm later. I was completely floored by the results of this test. I was expecting 30-40hp maybe...but 60hp. I was totally shocked.




video of a Full-race vs log dyno test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFjuBEUE-qg)


a post from 2004 of a Full-race vs Tube manifold test (http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-173410.html)


RESULTS: SWAPPING MANIFOLD = ~68.3 whp peak gain before tuning, ~48 whp after tuning, ~49.7 ft/lb before tuning, ~44 ft/lb after tuning



Here (http://www.full-race.com/articles/1.8T_turbo_manifold_test_writeup.pdf) for us 1.8t owners. ATP Log vs FR tube manifold on a VW 1.8t using a GT30r. Everyone running or thinking of running a GT30 might enjoy this one.[:D]




Exactly the reasons I would still like to see a built bottom end 1.8t running a tube manifold T3/GT2871r setup. Jet Jocket had plans to run that exact setup but at the last minute ended up going with a GT2871r with a Tial housing instead.

[QuattroRocket]

Thats what I have been led to believe so far as well, however its not more power that I am after its a quicker spool for more useable power. Visually the GT28r and the stock mani are an awful combo as the flanges are way off. The stock mani certainly appears to be choking off the flow that the turbo has.

My tuner just installed their dyno this past week so later this winter I will be doing before and after dynos and getting a tubular mani hand made ... lets see what it can do.

[mike-2ptzero]

Well it seems that all the people that did the tests only saw about 100 rpm difference in spool which is not all that much at all.

[a4darkness]

Very interesting.

[Kaytek]

Because of the manifold dropping the tq spike (and hard boost spike), it keeps the turbo from jumping out of its efficiency range and heating up as much. I promise the graphs looked much different with my identical setups, the only change being the manifold. I will dig them up when I get a chance

Any luck finding the graphs showing the flattening of the torque curve?

[Ethar]

what kind of inter cooler are you using in your audi

[A4natomical]

yea same here. im running the GT28r at 18psi on a custom tune
and from what i've read it seems as if they are prone to grenading the 1.8T. but from what i've heard, the engines that blew were running high psi. so my question is, will i be safe if i continue to run it at 18psi (which is fairly conservative) or would it be smart to do a little internal work (which i can easily do myself). should i look into just rods or a little more?

the power band of the gt28r is perfect for me, it gives me decent
power without running out of breath at higher rpm,
but without too much lag like the gtrs.

haha. what a misinformed post by me. this is when I knew squat and
was given extremely limited and incorrect info from the p.o.
I discovered my turbo to be a gtrs w/ revo software. [>_<]
and now look where i am.[>_<]

[diagnosticator]

Back from the dead, but reading your final comments to the post opening this thread, I needed to respond. The GT2X is a non player IMO, I don't understand why it's even used by the tuners that offer it. However, to answer your "question", there is a couple of Garrett turbos that seem like they are obvious contenders for the lower hp range upgrades, yet NO ONE has mentioned them or uses them. Specifically, the GT2554 and/or GT2560 turbos are medium frame, (same outline size as the GT28 series,) both oil and water cooled, and are both dual ball bearing center sections. In addition, both of these turbos are sized to provide excellent low rpm boost spoolup responsivness, and are capable of up to ~ 250> ~ 270 hp at reletivly low max rpms. In fact these are the two turbos I'm decidinig between for an eliminator style upgrade when my K-03 needs replacement. I don't understand why these two turbos have been ignored by tuning community, they are both suitable upgrades for the K-03/04, and are able to out perform the k-04 while not requiring special ECU tuning that is different from the tuning available for the k-04. The GT2554 will run better on stock ECU software, than a K-03 does on stock ECU software too.
It seems like the tuners don't even know these two turbos exist.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_4.htm

Adding to the usablity of the two lower range units linked above, Garrett is releasing the GTX compressors that offer 10+ % additional air flow with increase efficiency compared to the GT style compressor impeller design, available in 2010.

[diagnosticator]

A manifold reduces the EGT? How does that work? 30-40 hp loss w/o one is staggering!

Yes, because the lower back pressure provides higher efficiency by allowing increased charge air flow with less parsitic pumping work the engine must burn extra fuel to offset. Thus for the equivalent net work output, the peak combustion temps and resulting EGT is lower with reduced manifold back pressure. Consider that for any boost pressure, the exhaust manifold pressure will typically be ~ 2 to ~2.5 times higher!

[KPC1.8TQuat]

It seems like the tuners don't even know these two turbos exist.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_4.htm

Adding to the usablity of the two lower range units linked above, Garrett is releasing the GTX compressors that offer 10+ % additional air flow with increase efficiency compared to the GT style compressor impeller design, available in 2010.

These are both T25 flange. How are you going to make it an eliminator?

[diagnosticator]

These are both T25 flange. How are you going to make it an eliminator?

The GT28 eliminator turbine housing is supposed to fit, since they are the same frame size.

[a4darkness]

^^ Was hoping to hear some more discussion on this. Seems like the application of one of these turbos, or something similar, could be solved by some tweaked Uni software. I'm still possibly interested in a system like this for the long term.

-- K04/GT28R -- ? -- GTRS --

[EBG 18T]

^^ Was hoping to hear some more discussion on this. Seems like the application of one of these turbos, or something similar, could be solved by some tweaked Uni software. I'm still possibly interested in a system like this for the long term.

-- K04/GT28R -- ? -- GTRS --

there are always options like K04 hybrids if you want something in between. that was the road i went. the GT2554 has almost no information out there. I might be a perfect combo, but i can't anyone with more info on it.

[kneel]

Back from the dead, but reading your final comments to the post opening this thread, I needed to respond. The GT2X is a non player IMO, I don't understand why it's even used by the tuners that offer it. However, to answer your "question", there is a couple of Garrett turbos that seem like they are obvious contenders for the lower hp range upgrades, yet NO ONE has mentioned them or uses them. Specifically, the GT2554 and/or GT2560 turbos are medium frame, (same outline size as the GT28 series,) both oil and water cooled, and are both dual ball bearing center sections. In addition, both of these turbos are sized to provide excellent low rpm boost spoolup responsivness, and are capable of up to ~ 250> ~ 270 hp at reletivly low max rpms. In fact these are the two turbos I'm decidinig between for an eliminator style upgrade when my K-03 needs replacement. I don't understand why these two turbos have been ignored by tuning community, they are both suitable upgrades for the K-03/04, and are able to out perform the k-04 while not requiring special ECU tuning that is different from the tuning available for the k-04. The GT2554 will run better on stock ECU software, than a K-03 does on stock ECU software too.
It seems like the tuners don't even know these two turbos exist.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_4.htm

Adding to the usablity of the two lower range units linked above, Garrett is releasing the GTX compressors that offer 10+ % additional air flow with increase efficiency compared to the GT style compressor impeller design, available in 2010.

so is there any more info on these turbos, as i'm looking to get rid of the KO4 for something with a bit more power[:D]

[diagnosticator]

so is there any more info on these turbos, as i'm looking to get rid of the KO4 for something with a bit more power[:D]


Try Google.
The way I am planning on using one of these turbos, is too use an Eliminator turbine housing from the GT 2860 Elim, so that the turbo will bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold just like any Eliminator setup.

[jayiszraw]

Back from the dead, but reading your final comments to the post opening this thread, I needed to respond. The GT2X is a non player IMO, I don't understand why it's even used by the tuners that offer it. However, to answer your "question", there is a couple of Garrett turbos that seem like they are obvious contenders for the lower hp range upgrades, yet NO ONE has mentioned them or uses them. Specifically, the GT2554 and/or GT2560 turbos are medium frame, (same outline size as the GT28 series,) both oil and water cooled, and are both dual ball bearing center sections. In addition, both of these turbos are sized to provide excellent low rpm boost spoolup responsivness, and are capable of up to ~ 250> ~ 270 hp at reletivly low max rpms. In fact these are the two turbos I'm decidinig between for an eliminator style upgrade when my K-03 needs replacement. I don't understand why these two turbos have been ignored by tuning community, they are both suitable upgrades for the K-03/04, and are able to out perform the k-04 while not requiring special ECU tuning that is different from the tuning available for the k-04. The GT2554 will run better on stock ECU software, than a K-03 does on stock ECU software too.
It seems like the tuners don't even know these two turbos exist.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_4.htm

Adding to the usablity of the two lower range units linked above, Garrett is releasing the GTX compressors that offer 10+ % additional air flow with increase efficiency compared to the GT style compressor impeller design, available in 2010.

so basically you can run either one with a stock tune and it will run better than stock? i that correct? as well as it being able to run a k03 bigg injector tune/k04 tune?

[kneel]

Try Google.
The way I am planning on using one of these turbos, is too use an Eliminator turbine housing from the GT 2860 Elim, so that the turbo will bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold just like any Eliminator setup.

ok that kinda makes sence to me.

so where does one find all these parts/peices. looks my turbo is shot again..........i think! yesterday my car started blowing out blue smoke out the tail pipes. everytime i take off from a traffic light, or stop sign etc. i get a nice puff of blue smoke, and sitting now at idle it does it alittle[headbang]

[mnkyA4]

ok that kinda makes sence to me.

so where does one find all these parts/peices. looks my turbo is shot again..........i think! yesterday my car started blowing out blue smoke out the tail pipes. everytime i take off from a traffic light, or stop sign etc. i get a nice puff of blue smoke, and sitting now at idle it does it alittle[headbang]

I'm trying to see if ATP or 034 can help me with this. I've tried to email ATP regarding using a eliminator housiing with the GT2554 but no response. This was last year so I might have to ask them or 034 about it.

[EBG 18T]

so basically you can run either one with a stock tune and it will run better than stock? i that correct? as well as it being able to run a k03 bigg injector tune/k04 tune?

you are not going to be able to run one of those turbo's optimaly on stock tune. You maybe be able to use a 'tweaked' K04 file, but it will not be optimized.

[a4darkness]

Good point.

t will not be optimized.

Since the hybrid K04s setup is a bit rare, you mind elaborating on the numbers, characteristics, software etc. comparative to a regular K04 setup? It would make a solid addition to this thread.

[EBG 18T]

Good point.


Since the hybrid K04s setup is a bit rare, you mind elaborating on the numbers, characteristics, software etc. comparative to a regular K04 setup? It would make a solid addition to this thread.

Blouch the builder of my BW Hybrid does not release the specefics of what he uses, So i don't have any measurements. I did opt for the turbine porting. The link below will give you the description. Blouch BW Hybrid (http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/K04_18T_1/)

The boost comes on very low in the rpm range like the pj K04 but builds and holds much longer than the pj K04. Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms, at 6700rpms the boost tapers down.

The TT225 386cc injectors were maxed out, so i am using another Bosch injector from MTM that when sent to be balanced; flowed at ~430cc. My software is a custom solution from Altituned (Brian @ Avalon Motorsports)to optimize everything.

Blouch does not sell alot of these Hybrid BW setups and questioned me on what i was going to do about software, fueling and supporting modifications before we proceeded with the order. Blouch was very tight lipped about the specs, and provided me boost spec's to keep it within the turbo's efficeny range for this motor.

I will have dyno charts hopefully by the end of January. I just need to get down to CT and get to the dyno. So depending on work and the weather will dictate the timing.

If you have specefic questions let me know, i will try to answer them.

[diagnosticator]

Blouch the builder of my BW Hybrid does not release the specefics of what he uses, So i don't have any measurements. I did opt for the turbine porting. The link below will give you the description. Blouch BW Hybrid (http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/K04_18T_1/)

The boost comes on very low in the rpm range like the pj K04 but builds and holds much longer than the pj K04. Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms, at 6700rpms the boost tapers down.

The TT225 386cc injectors were maxed out, so i am using another Bosch injector from MTM that when sent to be balanced; flowed at ~430cc. My software is a custom solution from Altituned (Brian @ Avalon Motorsports)to optimize everything.

Blouch does not sell alot of these Hybrid BW setups and questioned me on what i was going to do about software, fueling and supporting modifications before we proceeded with the order. Blouch was very tight lipped about the specs, and provided me boost spec's to keep it within the turbo's efficeny range for this motor.

I will have dyno charts hopefully by the end of January. I just need to get down to CT and get to the dyno. So depending on work and the weather will dictate the timing.

If you have specefic questions let me know, i will try to answer them.


That doesn't sound like Blouch really knows what the specs are in fact. No wonder they don't want to provide all of the relevant performance data. Tight lipped is a cover for they don't know. IMO.

[diagnosticator]

you are not going to be able to run one of those turbo's optimaly on stock tune. You maybe be able to use a 'tweaked' K04 file, but it will not be optimized.

Since the turbo reacts to the available exhaust thermal and mass flow energy, it will develope boost accordingly. The turbo is not the controlling factor, it is adaptive to the energy balance of compressor power absorption, and turbine power level available relative to the engine load and mass air flow rate required to burn the fuel necessary to develop the torque required to satisfy the load on the engine.
The Garrett BB turbos are more efficient than the k-03/04, and will out perform the stock turbo using stock ECU tuning. The engine ECU doesn't care what turbo is generating the boosted mass air flow, provided the turbo is capable of achieving the mass air flow rate required at the charge air boost pressures that satisfy the demand or requested values programmed in the ECU maps.

[EBG 18T]

That doesn't sound like Blouch really knows what the specs are in fact. No wonder they don't want to provide all of the relevant performance data. Tight lipped is a cover for they don't know. IMO.

Ok.[rolleyes]

They offer several turbo options that they refuse to provide specs. My collegue has one on his Subaru (they don't provide more than basic info). With 30 years of turbo rebuilding experience, I don't think it has to do with their lack of knowledge. They have a few niche products they don't market the spec's as they feel the product is propriatary. I attempted to provide the info i have, unfortunatly i don't have all the answers. Oh well.



The Garrett BB turbos are more efficient than the k-03/04, and will out perform the stock turbo using stock ECU tuning. The engine ECU doesn't care what turbo is generating the boosted mass air flow, provided the turbo is capable of achieving the mass air flow rate required at the charge air boost pressures that satisfy the demand or requested values programmed in the ECU maps.

Sounds like you got it all figured out. I wonder why more Auto manufactuers don't use Garrett BB's as OEM turbo's?

[a4darkness]

While my intent was not to spark debate over said turbo / company, it's certainly made for interesting reading. D, I'm recalling some discussion of a similar nature on the formerly non-ruined AW? Would have to search for, oh wait... their search doesn't work anymore.

All this aside, the one thing that stands out to me was:


Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms

I want to see a dyno. Not to prove anything, just cause I'm interested to see if this setup has created a steady and plateaued HP/TQ curve.

Thanks to you both... resume debate.