Quattro, I finally get IT!

[jackk]

I have been babying my car ever since I got it, waxing and washing it often, making sure I keep my distances from other cars while parking, all the typical signs associated with new car paranoia.

However, today I had no other choice but to use it the way it was meant to be used.

For the past few days we've been having some horrible weather: Slush, rain, rain changing to freezing rain, then in to snow, and once again in to rain again. All these fluctuations have created some quite horrible driving conditions. Usually I would have opted to leave the car in the warm confines of its garage, but today I had no other option, I had to use it.

The results are amazing! While other cars are fighting for traction, skidding, and basically mimicking the actions of wounded animals, I'm pulling ahead as if it's a clear sunny day, curving corners, even perhaps pushing the legal limits a tiny bit in the more secluded, freshly paved, parts of the city... [drive]

Putting all the little quirks aside, (fuel guage problems, AC smell, driving with only 3 cylinders all of a sudden), I haven't had this much fun with a car in a long time! I'm hooked! Who needs a rear wheel drive 335i anyway :P

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7973/quattrosnow2ua4.jpg

[Tiesto]

LOL I noticed the Quattro working for the first time today as well. No slush but pleanty of rain/leaves. I cut off some dick in a Vette who cut me off and made some sharp turns. I could literally feel the rear wheels kicking in extra power. This is my first AWD car and I fucking love it!!!

[toaster]

there is no substitute.

[TooLow2.0T]

there is no substitute.

Porsche. Haha.

[TSlice]

Porsche. Haha.

Haha. I was gonna say, isn't Audi's thing 'never follow'? On an unrelated note, I wonder how a Carrera 4 handles the weather described above...

[muffinman]

+1111111

It's freakin monsoon sesason up here and we're getting dumped on... before, I used to hang on for dear life in my toyota but my a4 quattro feels ridiculously composed. i feel 10000x more confidant driving this thing.

[Tiesto]

Porsche. Haha.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T_N5VUeryBo&feature=related [race]

[teknikk7]

I'm glad I live in California. Why does my AC smell?

[TSlice]

Nice vid, but I was talking about the Carrera 4 - the AWD version, since jackk was talking about poor weather. This is more what I was thinking haha:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mwhVsFmW_0c

[Sharkfin]

i totally agree with you guys, i just drove from PA to NC 8 hours straight in the pouring rain and i was going 100 easy almost the entire way, with stock 16's and new tires along with quattro of course, it never slipped or waivered, sick nasty whip

[Tiesto]

Nice vid, but I was talking about the Carrera 4 - the AWD version, since jackk was talking about poor weather. This is more what I was thinking haha:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mwhVsFmW_0c

As said in the comments, that looks like a RWD. But I get your point, the Carrera 4 is a solid car.

[jackk]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mwhVsFmW_0c

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what we have outside at the moment.


I'm glad I live in California. Why does my AC smell?

It's mold, it cost me 170$(with tax) to get it fixed at the dealer, the original warranty doesn't cover it. There's homemade remedies if you search the forums, but I just got sick of it coming back.

[dave405nyc]

jackk were you running on the oem continentals/pirellis or on a dedicated set of snow tires? just wondering b/c i heard that the oem continentals are horrible in the snow.

[AudiGuy666]

there is no substitute.

It's not a Porsche pal [up]

[KarimS3]

guys are the pirelli P6s any good on snow?
i'm kinda worried in the braking department when it's snowing.
thanks

[AlexK]

Very excited to toss the car around on some snow too.

My last car was FWD without ABS, traction control, or stability. This is gonna be a world of difference.

[AudiWxGuy]

My last car was a 2003 Nissan Xterra that had optional 4WD. I loved it in the snow. IT was a blast to drive. Could get through a foot on untouched snow easy. The most fun was going into a big parking low and turning off the 4WD going into RWD and doing figure 8 doughnuts.

[quattshot]

"There is no substitute"
Hell, Porsche..Audi...who cares.
Porsche will own most of VW soon anyways.

[FlyPenFly]

You guys know Quattro doesn't give you extra magical traction right? It really only helps in getting the car going and that's it.

[Tiesto]

You guys know Quattro doesn't give you extra magical traction right? It really only helps in getting the car going and that's it.

Wow, you might want to delete that post asap for your own good. ROFL

[FlyPenFly]

Well let me clarify by saying, it only really helps when you put the noise pedal down. It doesn't endear onto the car any extra magic of traction but lets you divert power to wherever there may be more traction available.

It won't let you corner or brake any faster. It does help you in getting out of a corner.

[Tiesto]

Are you sure about that? Because in wet/snowy conditions the more power you have going to all the wheels the better right? All I know is I feel a hell of alot more comftorable making sharp turns in this vs 2WD. But then again it could also be other features like the sharp steering that help as well.

[FlyPenFly]

Well think about it, all AWD systems really do is shoot power into wheels. Getting more power into the wheel won't help you stop or increase the traction your tire has to the ground unless you're in a circumstance where you're requesting power from the engine.

Snow tires is really the key to winter driving. If my life depended on it, I would be more comfortable in a raised Zonda with snow tires (given clearance isn't an issue) than I would be with a Quattro car and summer tires.

[Tiesto]

Well think about it, all AWD systems really do is shoot power into wheels. Getting more power into the wheel won't help you stop or increase the traction your tire has to the ground unless you're in a circumstance where you're requesting power from the engine.

Snow tires is really the key to winter driving. If my life depended on it, I would be more comfortable in a raised Zonda with snow tires (given clearance isn't an issue) than I would be with a Quattro car and summer tires.

Well right now I'm rockin the all seasons and they're doing a great job. But yes snow tires + Quattro will turn the A4 into a solid winter vehicle. [up]

[ringmaster2.0]

well from what i have been told(dealer so who knows?) but audi was first to develop awd so i would think they did have magical powers if thats true. If they truly have pioneered the industry of awd then quattro should have more to it than putting power to all four wheels imo anyway

[Tiesto]

well from what i have been told(dealer so who knows?) but audi was first to develop awd so i would think they did have magical powers if thats true. If they truly have pioneered the industry of awd then quattro should have more to it than putting power to all four wheels imo anyway


Well yeah, it's thanks to Quattro that Audi made a name for itself in the rally world.

[AlexK]

Well let me clarify by saying, it only really helps when you put the noise pedal down. It doesn't endear onto the car any extra magic of traction but lets you divert power to wherever there may be more traction available.

It won't let you corner or brake any faster. It does help you in getting out of a corner.

+1

The only thing that will make your car corner or stop faster in the snow is winter rubber. Granted, AWD will keep your car from oversteering in a turn the way a RWD car would.

That being said and all other things being equal, a FWD car is no worse in the snow than a AWD car when it comes to turning and stopping.

[quattrosaint]

Man I hope it snows in Texas......If not I will drive up and play in the snow via my quattro. Hmmmm anybody heard of an A4 making snow angels???

[barkerd427]

First, welcome to the world of driving on rails. Second, the quattro is better than FWD because you have two extra tires that can have traction to ensure the car doesn't slide off the road. If the front wheels break loose on a FWD vehicle then it is much more likely to take off on you than a Quattro in the same situation. Also, Quattro does help you take a corner harder because of the reasons stated above, but all of this requires that you are giving it gas. Actually whenever I lose traction on a turn I just slam the gas down and that son of a gun whips right in line. Of course the tires are also very important which is why I always rock winter tires during the winter, duh. I have spent many months on snow covered Alpine roads, you know, the ones that Audi takes the reporters to so they can show off the incredible abilities of their cars. Finally, everyone should go and do some AWD doughnuts. Remember to turn off your stability control and have some great fun.

[kristokes]

lol glad to hear quattro hard at werk!

[audia420turbo]

yea i have driven in some bad weather and you can always do at least the speed limit i it all very impressed but wet leaves scare me its like black ice theres bits outa nowhere much rather drive in a snow storm then in the fall

[AlexK]

Second, the quattro is better than FWD because you have two extra tires that can have traction to ensure the car doesn't slide off the road.

You're saying the rear tires in a FWD car dont have lateral traction in a turn? The only thing keeping your car on the road in a turn is the lateral grip that a tire has. An undriven tire (the rear tires on a FWD car) has just as much lateral grip as a driven tire (the reare tires on an AWD car). If anything, an undriven tire has more lateral grip than a driven one. See: traction circle.


If the front wheels break loose on a FWD vehicle then it is much more likely to take off on you than a Quattro in the same situation.

Trying to control a car that is understeering is the same in an AWD as it is in a FWD. You get off the gas, apply no brake and hope for the best.


Also, Quattro does help you take a corner harder because of the reasons stated above, but all of this requires that you are giving it gas.

I think this is in your head. Again, check out the traction circle.

[TSlice]

Funny thread. All Quattro does is give you a better chance of moving forward (more driven wheels), but you still have 4 tires on the road, so traction is the same. Traction is just friction between your tire and the road, a transfer case and two extra driveshafts isn't going to give you more of that.

[FlyPenFly]

Trying to control a car that is understeering is the same in an AWD as it is in a FWD. You get off the gas, apply no brake and hope for the best.


A car that is understeering means it doesn't have enough traction on the front, you can alleviate this somewhat by hitting the brakes which causes the weight to transfer to the front and thereby gives you more grip. But this isn't an absolute rule because it really depends on the situation as the traction you're using for braking to get your weight transfer going might be better spent trying to fight the understeer.

[AlexK]

But this isn't an absolute rule because it really depends on the situation as the traction you're using for braking to get your weight transfer going might be better spent trying to fight the understeer.

Exactly. You're better off applying no brake pressure at all and reducing your steering angle till your front tires regain grip. Once you have grip, you can reapply brakes gradually.

If you're you're understeering, your front wheels have zero grip and applying brakes will do pretty much nothing for weight transfer. Your best bet is to apply brakes before the turn so your front tires are properly loaded for you to enter your turn.

[FlyPenFly]

Yeah, I agree with you completely

[Noffy]

The first sign of snow and I am putting the audi in the garage. I have had 4wd, awd, and fwd and despite all of them being pretty good in the snow they never seem to help the other driver, the ones that sliding into you. The audi stays home on that day.

[yamatoii]

quattro doesnt make the magic happen, its the combo of tire/AWD that will help you. even though, if u drive like an idiot, u still put urself in danger. Quattro or any kinda of road going AWD only helps u a bit compare to the other RWD or FWD cars, since they aint really rally tuned. just remember to play safe out there, cuz life is the last thing you want to pay to play. by saying that.... im going to do some snow canyon drive this coming month [:o]

[4-tified]

Quattro works.

Audi has demonstrated the advantage that AWD has over FWD or RWD in situations that really tax and demand the most of the entire car including the VERY IMPORTANT, tires.
That demonstration is in racing.

AWD systems, like the full time quattro in the manual trans, maximizes and optimizes the grip available from the tires.
To say that quattro does nothing accept help you accelerate, is to show a lack of understanding of the overall dynamics provided by the ability to control the power that goes to each wheel during acceleration as well as cornering.
Going through a turn while maximizing speed and control, requires utilizing the tires overall grip potential. Power to the correct at the correct time is part of that whole idea.

If your AWD is understeering a good method to bring it back into the turn is to let up on the throttle to shift weight forward to the front wheels while turning into the turn, or the direction you want to go, and apply THROTTLE so that power is applied to the front wheels as they turn in the direction you want to go. With full time AWD the rears provide added vehicle rotation by helping the rear come around while the front tires claw the pavement applying directional force to pull the front end where it needs to be.

In a RWD only part of the scenario happens, and in a FWD only part of that scenario happens. If you're going wide in a turn and you do nothing but coast, you're under the less than merciful aspect of momentum taking you in the line which you're currently on, unless you do something to change that direction. In an understeer or oversteer condition I make adjustments and corrections to try and get the car back to where I want it to go. With some full time AWD systems that can be done easier due to being able to apply the power where it's needed.

[4-tified]

Exactly. You're better off applying no brake pressure at all and reducing your steering angle till your front tires regain grip. Once you have grip, you can reapply brakes gradually.

If you're you're understeering, your front wheels have zero grip and applying brakes will do pretty much nothing for weight transfer. Your best bet is to apply brakes before the turn so your front tires are properly loaded for you to enter your turn.

I agree somewhat with your first comment, but I disagree with your second one. Being in an understeer situation does not mean that you have zero grip, far from it. Yes, your front tires are experiencing some angle slip, but again, what makes you think there is zero grip?

Applying the brakes gently can move weight to the front tires actually increasing their friction and grip. That added grip could help you move the understeer more towards neutral where you can now apply no brake but more steering angle, and maybe even some throttle to bring it back into the turn.
You're making it sound as if understeer is the same as a skid on ice. [:)]

[AudiWxGuy]

quattro doesnt make the magic happen, its the combo of tire/AWD that will help you. even though, if u drive like an idiot, u still put urself in danger. Quattro or any kinda of road going AWD only helps u a bit compare to the other RWD or FWD cars, since they aint really rally tuned. just remember to play safe out there, cuz life is the last thing you want to pay to play. by saying that.... im going to do some snow canyon drive this coming month [:o]

Do me a favor, try driving a BMW 745Li with RWD up a sloped driveway, then do the same with the Audi and Quattro. It's no contest.

AWD helps greatly, unless you have summer tires. Then, you'll be screwed either way.

I had an Xterra with really good tires and optional 4WD. Normally it's RWD. The 4WD makes a big, big difference in the snow. Especially going up hill, where the RWD slips like crazy.

AWD is great. I can't wait to drive my Audi in the snow....someday.

[FlyPenFly]

Quattro works.

Audi has demonstrated the advantage that AWD has over FWD or RWD in situations that really tax and demand the most of the entire car including the VERY IMPORTANT, tires.
That demonstration is in racing.

AWD systems, like the full time quattro in the manual trans, maximizes and optimizes the grip available from the tires.
To say that quattro does nothing accept help you accelerate, is to show a lack of understanding of the overall dynamics provided by the ability to control the power that goes to each wheel during acceleration as well as cornering.
Going through a turn while maximizing speed and control, requires utilizing the tires overall grip potential. Power to the correct at the correct time is part of that whole idea.

If your AWD is understeering a good method to bring it back into the turn is to let up on the throttle to shift weight forward to the front wheels while turning into the turn, or the direction you want to go, and apply THROTTLE so that power is applied to the front wheels as they turn in the direction you want to go. With full time AWD the rears provide added vehicle rotation by helping the rear come around while the front tires claw the pavement applying directional force to pull the front end where it needs to be.

In a RWD only part of the scenario happens, and in a FWD only part of that scenario happens. If you're going wide in a turn and you do nothing but coast, you're under the less than merciful aspect of momentum taking you in the line which you're currently on, unless you do something to change that direction. In an understeer or oversteer condition I make adjustments and corrections to try and get the car back to where I want it to go. With some full time AWD systems that can be done easier due to being able to apply the power where it's needed.


I don't think you understand the traction circle. Letting off the throttle in an AWD or FWD vehicle in an understeer situation is of course what you should do. Applying throttle to "claw" your front tires doesn't make any sense. Any time you apply throttle, you throw your weight balance to the rear, all it does is reduce "claw"-ing (grip) of your fronts.

In RWD or heavily rear biased AWD cars, you can use the throttle to steer but I really think you should first read up on the concept of the traction circle. Applying throttle in mostly neutral AWD car like A4 Quattro won't help you reduce understeer at all. Depending on the entry speed, you need to brake (to change your balance) or use all the traction you have to make the turn, the last thing you want to do is apply throttle since you'll not only be taking traction away from the front tires that could be used for turning but you'll be pitching your weight to the rear and reducing traction further to the fronts.

[yamatoii]

Do me a favor, try driving a BMW 745Li with RWD up a sloped driveway, then do the same with the Audi and Quattro. It's no contest.

AWD helps greatly, unless you have summer tires. Then, you'll be screwed either way.

I had an Xterra with really good tires and optional 4WD. Normally it's RWD. The 4WD makes a big, big difference in the snow. Especially going up hill, where the RWD slips like crazy.

AWD is great. I can't wait to drive my Audi in the snow....someday.

you are just trying to make quattro sound like god, which it isnt. i agree it has an advantage over the RWD in bad weather conditions, thats a given. but how much more does it help, is another thing. especially when people were saying they do lots of crazy stuff with quattro in the snow. when you push it over the edge, AWD won't save you. just remember tire is probably the most important thing in the snow, other than your AWD system. and yes i drive a quattro and do lots of stupid things with it on the mountain, so i know what i am talking about here. Quattro may proved to be invincible in the world of racing, but keep in mind, not many people here drive a racing-tuned DTM audi. we may have the same platform of quattro, but just throw on some c/o, rims ,swaybar and tire with an alignment is far from being called "race-tuned".

[AlexK]

Do me a favor, try driving a BMW 745Li with RWD up a sloped driveway, then do the same with the Audi and Quattro. It's no contest.

AWD helps greatly, unless you have summer tires. Then, you'll be screwed either way.

I had an Xterra with really good tires and optional 4WD. Normally it's RWD. The 4WD makes a big, big difference in the snow. Especially going up hill, where the RWD slips like crazy.

AWD is great. I can't wait to drive my Audi in the snow....someday.

Of course its no contest, one car is AWD and the other is RWD, what are we proving? Again, its AWD and there's nothing magic about it.

The discussion is not about accelerating in low grip situations but turning and stopping.

[AudiWxGuy]

Very good points gents! No, it does make you invincible, but it's very, very helpful. You still have to have an understanding of how to drive in the snow/ice no matter what vehicle you drive.

[AlexK]

I agree somewhat with your first comment, but I disagree with your second one. Being in an understeer situation does not mean that you have zero grip, far from it. Yes, your front tires are experiencing some angle slip, but again, what makes you think there is zero grip?

Applying the brakes gently can move weight to the front tires actually increasing their friction and grip. That added grip could help you move the understeer more towards neutral where you can now apply no brake but more steering angle, and maybe even some throttle to bring it back into the turn.
You're making it sound as if understeer is the same as a skid on ice. [:)]

Well maybe it is ice, we are talking about winter conditions after all. And what difference does it make if its ice or snow or slush or rain or even dry pavement? The dynamics are the same, only the level of friction varies.

And you're right, you dont have zero grip but you have almost none as the kinetic coefficient of friction is far lower than the static. When you're about to slide into a guardrail because your car isn't turning as much as you want it to, your first goal will be to get it to turn. Bringing it to a stop is secondary. Therefore, you let your car coast to use all of your tires' lateral grip to hopefully avoid the guardrail.

[AlexK]

Quattro works.

Audi has demonstrated the advantage that AWD has over FWD or RWD in situations that really tax and demand the most of the entire car including the VERY IMPORTANT, tires.
That demonstration is in racing.

AWD systems, like the full time quattro in the manual trans, maximizes and optimizes the grip available from the tires.
To say that quattro does nothing accept help you accelerate, is to show a lack of understanding of the overall dynamics provided by the ability to control the power that goes to each wheel during acceleration as well as cornering.
Going through a turn while maximizing speed and control, requires utilizing the tires overall grip potential. Power to the correct at the correct time is part of that whole idea.

If your AWD is understeering a good method to bring it back into the turn is to let up on the throttle to shift weight forward to the front wheels while turning into the turn, or the direction you want to go, and apply THROTTLE so that power is applied to the front wheels as they turn in the direction you want to go.

Obviously, I disagree. Applying throttle while understeering is the last thing you want to do in a FWD or AWD car. The concept of the traction circle proves this.



In a RWD only part of the scenario happens, and in a FWD only part of that scenario happens. If you're going wide in a turn and you do nothing but coast, you're under the less than merciful aspect of momentum taking you in the line which you're currently on, unless you do something to change that direction.

How is applying throttle going to help? You're increasing your momentum [confused]



In an understeer or oversteer condition I make adjustments and corrections to try and get the car back to where I want it to go. With some full time AWD systems that can be done easier due to being able to apply the power where it's needed.

I think certain AWD systems can help in an understeer situation. If the awd system can detect that the car is understeering and send all power to the rear wheels, you may be able to get the rear end to come out a little. Of course, you dont want to overdo it as understeer is typically easier to control than oversteer.

[barkerd427]

At least we know what we are talking about 4-tified. I think you explained what I was trying to. Don't you wish these guys would get off of their traction circles and all of this other crap. I understand physics, but clearly you guys are just regurgitating information that you have heard elsewhere. In some parts you are right, but you are hideously naive about the physics of an AWD vehicle. You also need to remember that when we talk about any type of vehicle we have to include the Electronic Stability Protection type systems in these cars. If you can transfer power to four wheels that is clearly better than two. No matter which two we are talking about.

[AlexK]

Don't you wish these guys would get off of their traction circles and all of this other crap.

Haha, you're right. Traction circles and "physics" is all crap.



I understand physics, but clearly you guys are just regurgitating information that you have heard elsewhere.

Right again. I did not create the concept of the traction circle or the laws of physics.

[barkerd427]

Ok, but the traction circle is not the same for an AWD car as others even if everything else is the same. I am not saying that the concept is different, but you gain more longitudinal grip, because you have twice the chance of retaining grip. Obviously we aren't gonna agree so I am going to sleep. Have a good night guys.

[FlyPenFly]

Who said the traction circle for an AWD car is the same? Traction circles for the same car can be different just by switching tires, time of day, track temperature, etc.


You also need to remember that when we talk about any type of vehicle we have to include the Electronic Stability Protection type systems in these cars. If you can transfer power to four wheels that is clearly better than two. No matter which two we are talking about.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

[Maverick]

yep, the love keeps growing.

[704b7]

Its pretty simple- AWD improves traction under throttle, because it moves two more wheels. If you come into a corner on the brakes, your AWD doesn't matter, all that matters are the individual tires' friction, their weight distribution, and the brake force applied. While throttling out of a corner, AWD again helps as it did before, but now the lateral grip of your tires also matters.
Does AWD improve overall driving dynamics of a vehicle in snow? Yes.
Do snow tires provide more traction in snow then summer/perforance tires do? Yes.
When entering a turn, are you going to calculate the max amount of gas you can apply without losing traction based on current road conditions, tire tread, AWD availability, car weight, traction circles, etc? No. So there's no reason to argue about traction cirles and physics and the 'magic' of quattro.



The first sign of snow and I am putting the audi in the garage. I have had 4wd, awd, and fwd and despite all of them being pretty good in the snow they never seem to help the other driver, the ones that sliding into you. The audi stays home on that day.

This is probably the most important point of all, if you are a car enthusiast then you're probably the one getting run into by the other 99% of drivers.

[4-tified]

Obviously, I disagree. Applying throttle while understeering is the last thing you want to do in a FWD or AWD car. The concept of the traction circle proves this.



How is applying throttle going to help? You're increasing your momentum [confused]



I think certain AWD systems can help in an understeer situation. If the awd system can detect that the car is understeering and send all power to the rear wheels, you may be able to get the rear end to come out a little. Of course, you dont want to overdo it as understeer is typically easier to control than oversteer.

You missed much what I am describing, by trying to re-describe what I wrote.
But, with your last comment, you finally accept how and why AWD DOES increase control.

Also, "understeer is easier to control than oversteer" is just typical car speak for the masses who don't know how to drive well.
Those who know how to control a car prefer a RWD that tends to oversteer, or better, AWD with neutral or oversteer.
Oversteer requires counterintuitive correction for those who don't understand how to control their cars. That's why most manufacturers allow so much understeer.

[4-tified]

Well maybe it is ice, we are talking about winter conditions after all. And what difference does it make if its ice or snow or slush or rain or even dry pavement? The dynamics are the same, only the level of friction varies.

And you're right, you dont have zero grip but you have almost none as the kinetic coefficient of friction is far lower than the static. When you're about to slide into a guardrail because your car isn't turning as much as you want it to, your first goal will be to get it to turn. Bringing it to a stop is secondary. Therefore, you let your car coast to use all of your tires' lateral grip to hopefully avoid the guardrail.

NO, I am talking about AWD in all situations of grip.
It makes a HUGE difference what the road surface is, because the dynamic CHANGES with the road conditions. If you don't get that, then how do you expect to understand the "traction" circle idea applied to real world conditions? [confused]

You're trying to describe understeer as a total skid/slide of the front wheels, when in fact there is only slip. There IS traction still available even when the vehicle is understeering. Perhaps you don't understand what "understeer" is?
The guardrail description reads like a skid, not an understeer.
The scenario you describe shows a vehicle that has LOST grip and control, that is not what I am talking about.
In a total loss of control skid of course it doesn't matter if you've got RWD, FWD, or AWD. I never said anything about bringing the car to a stop, as you imply.
What I and others are trying to say, is that CONTROL is increased with full time AWD such as the Quattro system.

Try this this winter. Go to an empty snow covered parking lot and go straight, then crank the steering to one side and apply light braking to upset the chassis a bit enough to get the rear to want to swing out, or, create an understeer. Now, counter steer slightly with the front wheels in the direction you want to go in and APPLY the throttle. Guess what? The front tires, even though they will be under a slight slide, will apply power to the tires in the direction you want to go in and will pull the front in that direction while the rear wheels push the car to straighten it out
If you can do this well, you'll actually be able to drive the car sideways while moving in an almost straight line. Lots of fun when done right. [:D]
Did my RWD 325i do that? Almost, but nearly as nice and controlled.
My former FWD's? No way.

AWD gives the driver more control especially in traction limited conditions.

Some of other comments made about "magic" and being able to drive faster on the highway because of quattro AWD, I don't agree with either.
But, I'm also not defending those statements.

[4-tified]

I don't think you understand the traction circle. Letting off the throttle in an AWD or FWD vehicle in an understeer situation is of course what you should do. Applying throttle to "claw" your front tires doesn't make any sense. Any time you apply throttle, you throw your weight balance to the rear, all it does is reduce "claw"-ing (grip) of your fronts.

In RWD or heavily rear biased AWD cars, you can use the throttle to steer but I really think you should first read up on the concept of the traction circle. Applying throttle in mostly neutral AWD car like A4 Quattro won't help you reduce understeer at all. Depending on the entry speed, you need to brake (to change your balance) or use all the traction you have to make the turn, the last thing you want to do is apply throttle since you'll not only be taking traction away from the front tires that could be used for turning but you'll be pitching your weight to the rear and reducing traction further to the fronts.


I've done plenty of "reading", but more importantly, I've done plenty of real driving. The theory's are good and scientifically sound, but they don't tell you how it feels or works in the real world.

I NEVER said appling throttle in an AWD will "reduce understeer", I said, full time AWD helps to bring the vehicle back under control and will help you put the car in the direction you want it to go in.

I've already described weight transfer with AWD.
Read what I wrote without looking for argument first.
Applying throttle so the that the wheels can "claw" or pull you in that direction doesn't make sense? But, RWD "steering" does?
Both methods use the same concept of applying power to wheels so that their orientation puts the vehicle back into the intended line.
In an AWD applying power shifts weight back, yes, but because the front tires do still have grip, under power they pull in that direction.
It's an easy concept to understand.

I don't think you guys really understand the "traction circle" and what it tries to describe, or you're getting too bogged down with thinking that the traction circle is an "all or nothing" concept, which it is not.
I'm NOT talking about skidding or sliding where the tire has completely lost traction of grip.

One more thing, watch some pro motorcycle racing and watch what happens when the rear tire starts to slide out from under the rider in a hard turn.
When that happens you APPLY more power. Why? To actually regain traction control and correct the trajectory of the bike.
Inexperienced riders chop the throttle, the tire gains FULL traction and "high sides" the rider throwing him over the bike. Really bad when that happens.

[Noffy]

In both my old 4wd pickup and my awd suby I have often used the more throttle to pull myself out of a slide. Its not something that you would do all the time but it does work from time to time. I don't know what the physics of it are but it is something we did in Northern Idaho winters. I think it has to do wth more power to all the wheels cause it to cut through the snow and ice to gain tractions. Like I said I can not explain the physics of it, but it does work.

just a side not, this lady that works with my wife got into an accident because she was coming off Mt. Hood from skiing and had her car in cruise control. hehe icy roads, driving down hill, and cruise control do not mix well. Most people here in portland do not have a lot of experience in snow and ice. Thats why I will be leaving my audi at home on those days.

[FlyPenFly]

I've done plenty of "reading", but more importantly, I've done plenty of real driving.

How many track days have you done? From everything you've posted, I seriously doubt you actually had even one. If you did, you either were dangerously misinformed with your instruction or had someone who had no idea what they were talking about.

[polyconsoler]

Its pretty clear you guys forgot what you're arguing about.

But ill make some points that could perhaps contribute to this argument.

1) Quattro does nothing if youre not using the throttle

2) An FWD A3 S-Line will understeer a whole hell of a lot more than my Quattro A4 non-s-line

3) Any traction you use to brake, cannot be used for steering.

4) You guys are forgetting that Quattro is a asymetrical dynamic all wheel drive system and will transfer up to 70% of the available torque to the axle with more grip. And claiming a 'traction circle' for a FWD car or a RWD car is stupid, when the torque is being transfered to different wheels based on the needs of the car.

With that said, it all explains why when I go into a turn hard I get less slippage at the apex of the turn when I accelerate before the apex than if I were to just wait till I came out of the turn. As soon as the tires in the front slip the torque gets transfered through to the back wheels causing the car to be 'pushed' through the turn reducing the understeer situation.

[AlexK]

You missed much what I am describing, by trying to re-describe what I wrote.
But, with your last comment, you finally accept how and why AWD DOES increase control.

Yes but accepting that an AWD system that transfers all torque to the rear wheels in an understeer situation by no means negates the points I've been making.

[AlexK]

NO, I am talking about AWD in all situations of grip.
It makes a HUGE difference what the road surface is, because the dynamic CHANGES with the road conditions. If you don't get that, then how do you expect to understand the "traction" circle idea applied to real world conditions? [confused]

Maybe "dynamics" is the wrong term for what I am trying to describe. I am saying that understeer and oversteer all happen exactly the same way just at different thresholds depending on road conditions. Your car still has the same balance and the same driven wheels regardless of road conditions. The only thing that road conditions change is the level of friction between the tires and the road. All that means is you need to go faster when its dry for the same things to happen when its wet, icy, etc.. This is why racing schools wet down the driving surface - that way, you dont need to be going 100 miles per hour to get your car to understeer or oversteer and can learn how to control or prevent each one.




You're trying to describe understeer as a total skid/slide of the front wheels, when in fact there is only slip. There IS traction still available even when the vehicle is understeering. Perhaps you don't understand what "understeer" is?
The guardrail description reads like a skid, not an understeer.


How is a skid and an understeer two different things? There are two types of skids, understeer and oversteer. A skid is one or the other.

Whether you have the wheel at full lock and you're going dead straight with zero control or you're just slightly off your intended line, its still understeer. It can be a total skid/slide or just a slight one. In winter conditions, it is usually the former.

Maybe we are in agreement after all. I agree that in dry conditions in a slight understeer, it is not necessary to completely coast. However, in a loss of control situation in winter conditions you gotta coast to channel your tires' grip laterally.

[barkerd427]

Ok, well no one is convincing anyone here. So I will hopefully leave this thread by saying: I got a Quattro so I can play in the snow. I am definitely not leaving it in the garage. I would have gotten a BMW if I didn't wanna drive in the snow."

[AlexK]

just a side not, this lady that works with my wife got into an accident because she was coming off Mt. Hood from skiing and had her car in cruise control. hehe icy roads, driving down hill, and cruise control do not mix well. Most people here in portland do not have a lot of experience in snow and ice. Thats why I will be leaving my audi at home on those days.

Haha, that story is ridiculous. The thought of putting my car in cruise control in winter conditions has never crossed my mind. Has anybody done this with our cars? The cruise control probably turns off if the car detects any wheel slip...

Speaking of Portland and shitty drivers (prolly not their fault in this case but still entertaining): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyfjZlOSq2A .

[quattrosaint]

bla bla bla Audi bla bla bla quattro, man whats everybody fighting about. Yeah it works awesome, no if you drive like an ass in the snow you will end up being an ass in a rental car. If this keeps up I might have to spend all my time on audiworld.............nah I will deal with the bickering [az][a4]

[essix]

If your car has oversteered, you will only feel the wall (tree or whatever) when you hit it. You've gone in backwards. If your car has understeered, you'll be staring at the wall (tree or whatever) when you tag it. You've "pushed" right through the corner and you're going in nose first.

[essix]

Oh, and by the way...all DTM cars are rear wheel drive only. Even the Audis. Sorry, no quattro in that series, guys.

[Tiesto]

Oh, and by the way...all DTM cars are rear wheel drive only. Even the Audis. Sorry, no quattro in that series, guys.

Way to pull that statement out of your ass. Quattro GmbH actually makes the DTM...

[essix]

Well, asshat, rear wheel drive is a requirement of the series. quattro GmbH builds the car, but it's a rear wheel drive. Sorry, no quattro drive in the series. Watch Speed channel. You'll learn a lot.

[FlyPenFly]

Way to pull that statement out of your ass. Quattro GmbH actually makes the DTM...

LoL come on.

[Noffy]

Speaking of Portland and shitty drivers (prolly not their fault in this case but still entertaining): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyfjZlOSq2A .


Well we get a lot of ice storms, but mostly it is our crappy winter driver's fault.

[Tiesto]

Well, asshat, rear wheel drive is a requirement of the series. quattro GmbH builds the car, but it's a rear wheel drive. Sorry, no quattro drive in the series. Watch Speed channel. You'll learn a lot.

I actaully googled it a little but didn't find other information other than the fact that the A4 DTM is Quattro. Yeah I don't actually watch the events but I thought we were talking about Audis, not a race series.

But now that you mention it, is it possible to buy a RWD Audi or is it modified just for the series?

[essix]

Yeah, the A4 "DTM model" is definitely quattro. The audi cars that participate in the Deutsche Touring Meisterschaft Series are all rear wheel drive. Sorry about the confusion. I was commenting on a previous post that referred to the DTM Series.

Doesn't make any difference what anyone says...quattro makes a difference on dry pavement or wet/snowy/icy pavement. And snow tires are an absolute requirement when the temperature drops. That is the difference between snow tires, all weather tires and regular (summer) tires...design temperature range. Anything but a snow tire gets rock hard when it's cold. And then they might as well be made of concrete.

quattro rules.

[AlexK]

Yeah snow tires make an amazing difference. The other thing that makes snow tires so much better is there are way more tread blocks and the tire has hundreds of sipes. Translation: snow tires have significantly more edges to bite into the snow and give you grip than your average all-season tire.

[lokeh]

This is my first AWD car and I fucking love it!!!

[:D][drive]

agreed!

[barkerd427]

The following two bits are from http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=10065. Also, you must realize that AWD ruled Rally racing when it was finally allowed to compete. I wonder if this is because it handles better in adverse conditions like on a turn covered with gravel.

"Once Audi management had been convinced of the four-wheel drive car’s superiority in adverse conditions by back-to-back tests with standard front-drive cars, Piëch was given the green light to develop a high-performance, four-wheel drive machine for road and rallying."

"Both centre and rear diffs could be locked by dog clutches to provide optimum traction in severe conditions – even with four-wheel drive a single wheel with no grip would still halt progress. With both diffs in their normal ‘open’ state the benefit of the 4x4 system was that each tyre was called upon to transmit less tractive effort, so the chances of a wheel spinning were much reduced."

[4-tified]

How many track days have you done? From everything you've posted, I seriously doubt you actually had even one. If you did, you either were dangerously misinformed with your instruction or had someone who had no idea what they were talking about.

[:p] Ok. Yeah, I'm dangerous. After 26 years of driving I have NO IDEA what I'm doing or talking about.

But, I digress. Please address the comments I made where I'm wrong, and we can discuss it.

[joshd2012]

We got the first snow of the season today in DC, and the first adverse weather I've had the car in since I picked it up less than four weeks ago. I ran snow shoes on my last vehicle (FWD), so I knew exactly what a stable car should feel like in the snow. I have to say, that even with the factory Contis, my Quattro felt great. I didn't ever feel like the car was out of my control. I wasn't exactly pushing snow, but with two inches of soft pack on the side roads, it definitely isn't a fun experience - unless you have AWD, that is!

Just wanted to post and say "I get it now!"

[KokujinTensai]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T_N5VUeryBo&feature=related [race]

Brilliant

[KokujinTensai]

Quattro works.

Audi has demonstrated the advantage that AWD has over FWD or RWD in situations that really tax and demand the most of the entire car including the VERY IMPORTANT, tires.
That demonstration is in racing.

AWD systems, like the full time quattro in the manual trans, maximizes and optimizes the grip available from the tires.
To say that quattro does nothing accept help you accelerate, is to show a lack of understanding of the overall dynamics provided by the ability to control the power that goes to each wheel during acceleration as well as cornering.
Going through a turn while maximizing speed and control, requires utilizing the tires overall grip potential. Power to the correct at the correct time is part of that whole idea.

If your AWD is understeering a good method to bring it back into the turn is to let up on the throttle to shift weight forward to the front wheels while turning into the turn, or the direction you want to go, and apply THROTTLE so that power is applied to the front wheels as they turn in the direction you want to go. With full time AWD the rears provide added vehicle rotation by helping the rear come around while the front tires claw the pavement applying directional force to pull the front end where it needs to be.

In a RWD only part of the scenario happens, and in a FWD only part of that scenario happens. If you're going wide in a turn and you do nothing but coast, you're under the less than merciful aspect of momentum taking you in the line which you're currently on, unless you do something to change that direction. In an understeer or oversteer condition I make adjustments and corrections to try and get the car back to where I want it to go. With some full time AWD systems that can be done easier due to being able to apply the power where it's needed.

4-tified I applaud you. If you can manage to take the Audi driving class, I emphatically urge any of you to. I learned soo much when I worked for Audi than from behind a computer reading message boards. The Quattro system is one of the greatest advancements in automotive technology. I may own other cars for the rest of my life but I will ALWAYS own an Audi.

[4-tified]

4-tified I applaud you. If you can manage to take the Audi driving class, I emphatically urge any of you to. I learned soo much when I worked for Audi than from behind a computer reading message boards. The Quattro system is one of the greatest advancements in automotive technology. I may own other cars for the rest of my life but I will ALWAYS own an Audi.

[:)][up]

[REDLINE]

oversteer is when the passenger is scared
understeer is when the driver is scared

[quattrosaint]

oversteer is when the passenger is scared
understeer is when the driver is scared

I have never heard that said any better[up]

[phEight]

oversteer is when the passenger is scared
understeer is when the driver is scared

lovin it, nicely said.

[REDLINE]

haha thanks but i cant take props for that saying i saw it somewhere else