View Full Version : APR Fuel pump installed ... impressions
Bernhard
10-01-2007, 09:25 AM
Hi,
We just installed last Saturday our first APR FSI fuel pump. I would like to share with you all our impressions about it, about the pump itself, the installation, performance gain, price, etc.
The pump itself: Well at first glance, the pump looks just like the OEM one that we removed from the car. Then, after further examination, we realized that the acuator spring is stiffer, and that as far as we could see inside, without disassembling it, it looked worked on. What APR does, is take the factory Hitachi built pump and re-ingeener it to perform better.
The installation: if you have all the tools at hand, it is not a difficult installation. Not a 30 minute one, but a good hour for the whole process without the ECU burn. You need to be careful with the pressure sensor, that you have to move from the original to the new pump....don't over torque it. Also make sure that the bleeder valve, that also has to be moved, is properly tight in order to avoid leaks. For the rest is not that hard.
The performance: This pump has created lot of polemics in the forum. Let me tell you, it is not just the pump, it is the pump/software combo that makes the difference. The engine speed (RPMs) increases faster, and steadier, making the car feel about 100 pounds lighter. It is noticeable. I would recomend the skeptics to drive a car with a pump before giving further opinions.
The price?... well I now that it is pricey, but after looking at what it really is, I can put the price like this:
OEM pump + rebuild/reingeener labor + software (if you already have APR is just a reflash) + R&D of course = 1099.00
If you consider this, the price is not bad.
If you want we have a car with the pump installed and one without it for comparison, you are welcome to drive them and experience first hand the difference.
Tomorrow we will do the first transverse engine pump... we will keep you up to date with our experience with it too.
regards,
Six Speed Turbo
10-01-2007, 09:41 AM
Nice to finally hear about these first hand.....keep us posted!
quattshot
10-01-2007, 09:57 AM
Funny, HID and I were working on my car yesterday and he mentioned that he cant wait to hear the first impressions on the Pump.
Looks like I'll be headed your way for a test drive soon!
Josh_877
10-01-2007, 10:00 AM
ha, i wish i was near the florida area to take a test drive, cause im still one of those "$1000+ for a fuel pump is way too much money!"
lnferno
10-01-2007, 11:02 AM
Logs? Dynos?
RealSanaii
10-01-2007, 11:05 AM
I might get one soon too...I just hate the fact that the APR dealers near me charge like $70 for "labor" even if it's reflash or anything. so APR pump + installation + software upgrade = madness.
Six Speed Turbo
10-01-2007, 11:41 AM
I might get one soon too...I just hate the fact that the APR dealers near me charge like $70 for "labor" even if it's reflash or anything. so APR pump + installation + software upgrade = madness.
They should not charge you for a reflash. Mine doesn't.
4-tified
10-01-2007, 11:57 AM
Hi,
The performance: This pump has created lot of polemics in the forum. Let me tell you, it is not just the pump, it is the pump/software combo that makes the difference. The engine speed (RPMs) increases faster, and steadier, making the car feel about 100 pounds lighter. It is noticeable. I would recomend the skeptics to drive a car with a pump before giving further opinions.
You seem to imply that the engine revs up faster. Ok.
But, how do you prove that? Did you do some 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs before and after? Did you do dyno's before and after?
To imply that the engine revs up faster and smoother, almost seems to indicate that perhaps the stock pump and softer has a lot more detonation creating timing retardation thus slowing rev up and power output.
However, did you data log anything like that with the stock setup, and then compare it with new pump/software update?
It's not a matter of being a "skeptic". It's a matter of reality and testing and verification. If you make the claim of change, then you provide the proof.
Also, what is the new software doing? Is it altering a/f ratio's, is it asking for more boost, what parameters over stock APR software are changed?
Perhaps APR can chime in here and offer what the changes were to the software that can't be done with the stock pump?
evoic
10-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Anyone know what the hell is in the drinking water in Chicago, IL ?
.......I'm just sayin'.
redhott06
10-01-2007, 12:51 PM
if i were to get this pump..and i have revo software.. would they need to create some type of reflash for me? or what..?
4-tified
10-01-2007, 01:17 PM
Anyone know what the hell is in the drinking water in Chicago, IL ?
.......I'm just sayin'.
[:D] I think it's just H20, probably with some chlorine.
See, asking for clarification is a good thing.
I'm just sayin'...
Bernhard
10-01-2007, 02:22 PM
As I said, impressions, I did not intend to give you a scientific analysis of the fuel pump. The intention is to share with everyone what we saw and did on Saturday. We have two cars, one with and one without, and the difference is noticeable in smothness and response.
As soon as I have some technical facts (dynos, etc) I ll be glad to share them with you all.
4-tified, you need to relax, and avoid being rude with your fellow audiziners that are just trying to share something that might be interesting for the rest. Try Evian or Dasani to avoid chlorine.
Redhott06, as far as I know the pump is available for APR software only. Talk to your Revo supplier and see if they have something.
We charge for the install, but not for the reflash. It is up to each dealer to set their policies.
Cheers to all,
John1.8T
10-01-2007, 02:27 PM
Thanks for your review, Bernhard!
Looking forward to hearing more about it as you continue testing.
Are you running the K03 turbo or did you upgrade to the K04?
BenGieCruz
10-01-2007, 03:03 PM
how's the car on gas/mileage now with the pump??
Bernhard
10-01-2007, 03:32 PM
The car has the following mods:
APR fuel pump 93 Octane software
APR exhaust system
Carbonio CAI
H&R Spring set
No turbo upgrade for now
Regarding fuel consumption, the OBC shows descent values in comparison with the previous consumption, but we need to drive it more and see the averages. It doesn't seem like more.
RealSanaii
10-01-2007, 04:24 PM
Bernhard,
Are you guys planning to dyno the car? I actually wanna see the # gains for the K03.
Thanks,
Sang
at h20 this past weekend, apr said 2-6 weeks until they have recalibration for the pump for 93 octane for the k04. hopefully the software is already done for the rest of you, b/c i just bought a 1k fuel pump just to have it sit for up to 6wks (know apr, longer)
lnferno
10-01-2007, 05:43 PM
at h20 this past weekend, apr said 2-6 weeks until they have recalibration for the pump for 93 octane for the k04. hopefully the software is already done for the rest of you, b/c i just bought a 1k fuel pump just to have it sit for up to 6wks (know apr, longer)
When I spoke with Andy@APR on the phone late Friday, he said that they were putting it up on the server as we spoke.
Geoffafa
10-01-2007, 08:53 PM
bernhard im from the area and i got my apr software form you guys and i was wondering, did you install the fuel pump on kens car?
4-tified
10-02-2007, 06:37 AM
4-tified, you need to relax, and avoid being rude with your fellow audiziners that are just trying to share something that might be interesting for the rest. Try Evian or Dasani to avoid chlorine.
Bernhard, don't make erroneous assumptions about people's state of mind. I am quite relaxed now and when I wrote my questions.
Rude? There is nothing in my commentary that is rude or intended as such. Your response is a bit rude though as it is personal.
My questions were not personal, nor intended to be.
The info you gave is "interesting", but still needs clarification. I think it's quite acceptable in holding those who make certain claims to task, as many of us have the same questions. That's not personal nor excited. I hope you can keep it that way, and I'll let the personal comments towards me roll away.
BTW, you didn't even try to address any of my questions.
I look forward to hearing the answers when you get them. [:)]
Bernhard
10-02-2007, 08:18 AM
There are plans to dyno Ken's car as soon as we solve another ripped DV. We are very interested in actual numbers as well. As soon as we have them we will post them, either with good or bad numbers.
We are installing one on a Gti right now, and we will let you know (at this moment in a subjective way) our impressions and the customer's.
4-tified... cool no problem... You'll be the first to know our results![:)]
Cheers
4-tified
10-02-2007, 11:40 AM
There are plans to dyno Ken's car as soon as we solve another ripped DV. We are very interested in actual numbers as well. As soon as we have them we will post them, either with good or bad numbers.
We are installing one on a Gti right now, and we will let you know (at this moment in a subjective way) our impressions and the customer's.
4-tified... cool no problem... You'll be the first to know our results![:)]
Cheers
Sweet.
BTW, I removed the comment I wrote about being "vague".
I can see how it can be taken negatively, so I removed it, as I did not intend it to be mean or rude.
I'm very interested in this pump as I'm still thinking through why it should give more power even with the standard APR software, as APR has claimed.
Perhaps you can give your thinking on why a higher potential capacity fuel pump should result in more power with just a pump upgrade?
lnferno
10-02-2007, 11:52 AM
FWIW, my pump should be arriving tomorrow and will be put on this week. Expect a before and after dyno in the next couple weeks or so.
When I spoke with Andy@APR on the phone late Friday, he said that they were putting it up on the server as we spoke.
that's probably 91 octane. they didn't even have a 93 k04 file for me when i got it installed a couple weeks ago. they said they could have that for me on monday or tuesday, or wait for them to write a 93 k04 fuel pump file, which would take 2-6wks. if they have the 91, that's what i'm on now anyway. maybe i can get that while i wait for the 92 fp software
lnferno
10-02-2007, 02:25 PM
that's probably 91 octane. they didn't even have a 93 k04 file for me when i got it installed a couple weeks ago. they said they could have that for me on monday or tuesday, or wait for them to write a 93 k04 fuel pump file, which would take 2-6wks. if they have the 91, that's what i'm on now anyway. maybe i can get that while i wait for the 92 fp software
No, it's for 93. John Stahman is already running the program on his car. I told them that I'm putting my pump on this Thursday and they told me no problem -- they have the software uploaded.
nojoda
10-02-2007, 02:26 PM
how does the MPG daily drivability change?
what is the avg? from what you've seen?
jstahmann
10-02-2007, 04:11 PM
No, it's for 93. John Stahman is already running the program on his car. I told them that I'm putting my pump on this Thursday and they told me no problem -- they have the software uploaded.
FWIW, my pump should be arriving tomorrow and will be put on this week. Expect a before and after dyno in the next couple weeks or so.
Can't wait to see the dyno numbers.
Are you getting both the 93 and the 104 programs?
lnferno
10-02-2007, 04:23 PM
Can't wait to see the dyno numbers.
Are you getting both the 93 and the 104 programs?
You know it! [up]
well i hope you're right dude. b/c if that's the case, i'll have that on this week! on another note, i blew my pcv tonight. fun fun
Bernhard
10-02-2007, 06:17 PM
4-tified, no worries, thanks for the corrections, and as promissed I'll keep you updated.
I am looking very much forward to the impressions from every one else too with the pump.
[:)]
Slo.Mo.Shun.
10-03-2007, 02:55 PM
PM sent to: Bernhard , Nojoda, Ih8OEM
Gzo17
10-03-2007, 04:37 PM
There are plans to dyno Ken's car as soon as we solve another ripped DV.
Have you guys tried the Forge DV? I got mine last week after the OEM DV tore. Its great!!!!
Cant wait to see what kinda numbers Ken's car is putting down.
lnferno
10-05-2007, 08:34 AM
Got my fuel pump installed last night. It definitely goes through the gears faster now! WOW - it pulls MUCH harder on the top end!!! Dyno coming in a couple weeks!
viperdsa
10-05-2007, 09:03 AM
Has anyone driven enough with the fuel pump to get the average mpg? Seems like it would drop a lot.
lnferno
10-05-2007, 09:08 AM
My first tank of gas wouldn't be an accurate reflection of average MPG. For some reason, my right foot always seems to be heavy after I get a go-fast mod put on!?!?
Slo.Mo.Shun.
10-05-2007, 09:26 AM
MPG should not change if your right foot does not demand it.
trojans1981
10-05-2007, 09:47 AM
Mpg should not matter when you're modding your car. If you don't want to waste gas than don't mod your car. Leave it stock.
AlexK
10-05-2007, 10:34 AM
Mpg should not matter when you're modding your car. If you don't want to waste gas than don't mod your car. Leave it stock.
Completely disagree. There are plenty of mods you can do, performance oriented or not, that will not hurt MPG and can even improve it.
Lt. Lawton
10-05-2007, 10:56 AM
Are there different octane files for the fuel pump? or is the 93 oct file the only one available for the new pump?
4-tified
10-05-2007, 11:21 AM
My first tank of gas wouldn't be an accurate reflection of average MPG. For some reason, my right foot always seems to be heavy after I get a go-fast mod put on!?!?
Is this fuel pump ONLY, or did you get new software as well?
lnferno
10-05-2007, 12:26 PM
I got the 93 program as well as the 104 program loaded onto my ECU. I'm anxious to try out the 104 program. Just filled up with 93 last night, as soon as this tank is empty (should be in a few days), I am going to put some 104 in there and try that program out. Dyno is scheduled for 10/13!
*crosses fingers to hit 300 awhp*
i got mine installed tonight. and dante, i checked with apr, they do have the 93 file out for k04, but not the 07's. so i have to settle for 91 octane w/ the fuel pump. anyway, my pcv will be here monday. so i'm getting that on, and then getting reflashed tues or wed. so i'll update the thread as well. i don't have a pre fuel pump dyno, just a k03 dyno a few weeks ago. but i'll be going as well after its all done.
lnferno
10-05-2007, 05:35 PM
Ah -- didn't realize yours was an '07.
Man -- you should really try to get a dyno session in before you put in the fuel pump! I know everyone is different, but that would drive me absolutely insane not knowing how much power a mod like that gave me!
4-tified
10-08-2007, 07:37 AM
I got the 93 program as well as the 104 program loaded onto my ECU. I'm anxious to try out the 104 program. Just filled up with 93 last night, as soon as this tank is empty (should be in a few days), I am going to put some 104 in there and try that program out. Dyno is scheduled for 10/13!
*crosses fingers to hit 300 awhp*
Ok.
So, you have the same APR 93 program that anyone can get even with the stock fuel pump?
No changes in the software to the fuel parameters correct?
lnferno
10-08-2007, 07:40 AM
Ok.
So, you have the same APR 93 program that anyone can get even with the stock fuel pump?
No changes in the software to the fuel parameters correct?
No, that's not correct. The 93 program for my K04 is different than the 93 program for the K03. If you get the APR fuel pump, your APR distributor will reflash your ECU with the new, appropriate software. Doesn't matter if you have a K04 or K03, you'll get new software loaded.
well i got the 91 octane b/c that's all they had available for my box code. i can definitely tell a difference in midrange and top end. my pcv and/or software fixed my surging issue for the most part, and it spikes higher, holds higher, and pulls all the way to redline. I'm pretty happy. i always want more power, but this will do for now.
lnferno
10-09-2007, 09:05 PM
Well, I don't want to spoil anything before I go to the dyno this Saturday, but I will say this -- I just went for a drive with 104 octane on the 104 octane program:
H O L Y * * * *!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is all.
jstahmann
10-09-2007, 09:10 PM
YEAH! Butt dyno says it all. See what I mean by my earlier comment? I'm eager to see what the dyno says...
lnferno
10-09-2007, 09:11 PM
I am going to be really surprised if I don't hit at least 300 AWHP.
jstahmann
10-09-2007, 09:18 PM
Sweet. I think we have basically the same setup and are at similar altitudes (AWE exhaust vs APR exhaust).
I'll be shocked if it's not over 300, especially on the 104 program. BTW, I dropped to the 93 program this week and it still feels nice. Not quite the same (of course) but still nice...
lnferno
10-09-2007, 09:23 PM
Sweet. I think we have basically the same setup and are at similar altitudes (AWE exhaust vs APR exhaust).
I'll be shocked if it's not over 300, especially on the 104 program. BTW, I dropped to the 93 program this week and it still feels nice. Not quite the same (of course) but still nice...
Yeah, the 93 definitely was a nice improvement over the previous 93 software/OEM pump, but WOW, I am in complete shock right now. The 104 program is just freakin' awesome!!!!
I am already worrying about the withdrawal that I'm going to go through once this tank of 104 runs out and I go back to 93! LOL
I have the biggest grin on my face right now -- just can't believe what an improvement this pump and software made! WOW! [:D]
trojans1981
10-09-2007, 09:48 PM
nice can't wait to see numbers
I'm curious to see you results also. My before and after dyno's didn't show the same increases yours did. I want this pump soon.
rlopez
10-10-2007, 07:32 AM
I got the 93 program as well as the 104 program loaded onto my ECU. I'm anxious to try out the 104 program. Just filled up with 93 last night, as soon as this tank is empty (should be in a few days), I am going to put some 104 in there and try that program out. Dyno is scheduled for 10/13!
*crosses fingers to hit 300 awhp*
Donte,
Where do you get 93 and 104 in mile hi? Also, because of the thinner air, does 93 and 104 have any problems burning efficiently?
lnferno
10-10-2007, 07:42 AM
Donte,
Where do you get 93 and 104 in mile hi? Also, because of the thinner air, does 93 and 104 have any problems burning efficiently?
I get my 104 at Laniers Speed shop in Colorado Springs. Every tank, I put 2.5 gallons of 104 mixed in with 91 and that gives me a blend of 93 octane.
I personally wouldn't do it, but up at our altitude, you could probably get away with running 91 octane on a 93 program, but again, I wouldn't do that.
Dante
4-tified
10-10-2007, 12:18 PM
No, that's not correct. The 93 program for my K04 is different than the 93 program for the K03. If you get the APR fuel pump, your APR distributor will reflash your ECU with the new, appropriate software. Doesn't matter if you have a K04 or K03, you'll get new software loaded.
You already had the K04 before the pump right?
If so, when you go the new pump, did you get new software to change fuel parameters?
My point is that to verify that the pump ONLY will offer any added benefit, all other factors need to stay as they are with no changes other than the pump. If you get new fuel curves and ratio's how do we know the pump alone is beneficial to those running stock K03's and APR software?
You situation is unique as you have a K04 and you have the new pump along with new 93 software that changes more than just the fuel pump.
lnferno
10-10-2007, 12:22 PM
You already had the K04 before the pump right?
If so, when you go the new pump, did you get new software to change fuel parameters?
My point is that to verify that the pump ONLY will offer any added benefit, all other factors need to stay as they are with no changes other than the pump.
I doubt the pump by itself with no new software will make that much of a difference (not nearly as much wit having the software loaded anyways). The real benefit is having the software loaded with the upgraded fuel pump.
4-tified
10-10-2007, 12:44 PM
I doubt the pump by itself with no new software will make that much of a difference (not nearly as much wit having the software loaded anyways). The real benefit is having the software loaded with the upgraded fuel pump.
That's what I figured as well.
I remember a thread where, I think, an APR rep was trying to say that their fuel pump alone will give 20hp/20lb ft. with nothing more than just their pump. This came up because a lot of people were shocked at the price for the pump and it's value.
In your case I can see how you could use more fuel.
It'll be cool to see the power you get with 93. [up]
lnferno
10-10-2007, 01:27 PM
That's what I figured as well.
I remember a thread where, I think, an APR rep was trying to say that their fuel pump alone will give 20hp/20lb ft. with nothing more than just their pump. This came up because a lot of people were shocked at the price for the pump and it's value.
In your case I can see how you could use more fuel.
It'll be cool to see the power you get with 93. [up]
Well, the dyno session I'm doing this weekend will be done using the 104 program. I'll eventually do a 93 dyno session as well, but 104 is first!
That's what I figured as well.
I remember a thread where, I think, an APR rep was trying to say that their fuel pump alone will give 20hp/20lb ft. with nothing more than just their pump. This came up because a lot of people were shocked at the price for the pump and it's value.
In your case I can see how you could use more fuel.
It'll be cool to see the power you get with 93. [up]
you probably misunderstood. technically they are right. the software upgrade is a given, and its a free upgrade--no charge. obviously if you put a higher volume fuel pump on, and keep the software that is written around the stock parameters, the pump will supply little or no more fuel than the original software was written to allow. therefore you need the software so that its written to the turbo in question's potential, not the oem fuel pump's inabilities. hope that makes sense
RealSanaii
10-10-2007, 03:25 PM
AAAA, do you go to NGP racing?
How much did they charge you w/ install and software upgrade?
They charged me "labor fee" which was like 75 dollars per hour for reflash they did.
i've been there for about 6 reflashes for one reason or another. i've gotten charged 35, 40, and 73 this past time. i think regular its 73
RealSanaii
10-10-2007, 09:58 PM
Did you install the fuel pump there? or by yourself?
I'm thinking of getting it as a birthday gift for myself..and the car and was wondering how much they would charge.
Did you install the fuel pump there? or by yourself?
I'm thinking of getting it as a birthday gift for myself..and the car and was wondering how much they would charge.
we don't pay anyone to do our work, we do our own and others. i told you my roommate and i are talking about opening up our own shop
John1.8T
10-11-2007, 08:10 AM
Looking forward to seeing the results Dante!
Good to hear you're impressed!
4-tified
10-11-2007, 11:05 AM
you probably misunderstood. technically they are right. the software upgrade is a given, and its a free upgrade--no charge. obviously if you put a higher volume fuel pump on, and keep the software that is written around the stock parameters, the pump will supply little or no more fuel than the original software was written to allow. therefore you need the software so that its written to the turbo in question's potential, not the oem fuel pump's inabilities. hope that makes sense
I understand what you are saying and I agree. And, I did not misunderstand.
The fuel pump alone adding power is what was being discussed and speculated. I brought up that a larger or higher capacity fuel pump will NOT make an engine produce more power, UNLESS there is a fuel pump related problem to begin with. People disagreed.
Even the OP of this thread knows of the discussions regarding this pump and it's ability to create more power on it's own.
So, of course, if you change software so that the fuel maps are different you can change how the engine performs.
However, how will a stock 2.0T with just standard APR, REVO, etc... software do with just a change to the higher capacity pump?
Some say you'll get more power. I'm on the side that asks, why would it? Barring the OEM pumps inability to provide the needed fuel for the standard APR, REVO, etc... software, a higher potential flow fuel pump won't provide anything.
It seems we are in agreement. However, the other impression has been put out there for this APR pump.
That's why I am very curious and interested to see what is happening with the pumps now that they are available. The info initially being put out there seemed very optimistic and more marketing than mechanically correct.
I'd still like to see any 2.0T even with typical 91, 93, 104 software gain 20hp/20lb ft of power with simply bolting on the new pump.
well i think the k03 software also has the same fuel restrictions as the k04, so with new software on the standard k03 i think it will still add hp and torque. how much is subject to verification, as i haven't heard any advertised numbers from apr on the k03, just the k04 (and they always advertise what will make them look the best, so the k03 is prob under what is advertised for the k04)
barkerd427
10-11-2007, 12:07 PM
4-tified, I don't think it is fair to think of the pump as just the pump. If APR sold the pump with no software upgrade available then it would be ok to take the gains from just the pump and be disappointed in the product. However, this is not the case and to be fair to APR you MUST take the gains from the pump and software as it is meant to be run. It would be quite pointless to sell a beefed up pump and no software upgrade. If there would be any gains they would be minimal and I am guessing that the K04 or BT guys would be the only ones to see any gains without the software. It is kind of like adding the K04 with no software upgrade. What's the point? So from now on lets look at this product in the light it is meant to be looked under.
lnferno
10-11-2007, 10:52 PM
Just so that people are aware, you can send it your existing fuel pump to APR where they'll rebuild it and send it back to you with the upgrade parts for $649 plus shipping.
johnnybravo!
10-12-2007, 01:12 AM
dante i think im going this route...looking out for those dyno results bro.. [up]
Just so that people are aware, you can send it your existing fuel pump to APR where they'll rebuild it and send it back to you with the upgrade parts for $649 plus shipping.
D0lphinGrey
10-12-2007, 03:23 AM
Just so that people are aware, you can send it your existing fuel pump to APR where they'll rebuild it and send it back to you with the upgrade parts for $649 plus shipping.
How long does the rebuild takes? Your car would be off the road until it comes back from APR.
lnferno
10-12-2007, 08:05 AM
How long does the rebuild takes? Your car would be off the road until it comes back from APR.
I'm not sure how long the process takes. I'd recommend calling them to get the details.
trojans1981
10-12-2007, 08:19 AM
if the turn around isn't too long that might not be a bad way to go, that is if you don't have to drive far or have an extra car to drive.
D0lphinGrey
11-15-2007, 11:34 AM
so has anyone got dyno results for the pump with stock K03 and APR93? I'm considering this pump as its on special right now (in Australia).
bhvrdr
11-15-2007, 03:04 PM
I understand what you are saying and I agree. And, I did not misunderstand.
The fuel pump alone adding power is what was being discussed and speculated. I brought up that a larger or higher capacity fuel pump will NOT make an engine produce more power, UNLESS there is a fuel pump related problem to begin with. People disagreed.
Even the OP of this thread knows of the discussions regarding this pump and it's ability to create more power on it's own.
So, of course, if you change software so that the fuel maps are different you can change how the engine performs.
However, how will a stock 2.0T with just standard APR, REVO, etc... software do with just a change to the higher capacity pump?
Some say you'll get more power. I'm on the side that asks, why would it? Barring the OEM pumps inability to provide the needed fuel for the standard APR, REVO, etc... software, a higher potential flow fuel pump won't provide anything.
It seems we are in agreement. However, the other impression has been put out there for this APR pump.
That's why I am very curious and interested to see what is happening with the pumps now that they are available. The info initially being put out there seemed very optimistic and more marketing than mechanically correct.
I'd still like to see any 2.0T even with typical 91, 93, 104 software gain 20hp/20lb ft of power with simply bolting on the new pump.
To clarify again...
The OEM K03 pump APR, REvo, GIAC etc software is programmed around the factory fuel limitations. It is programmed to the edge of where people would experience fuel cut. Many people do experience fuel cut as you can see from the dozens of threads on various forums about it and many people do not experience fuel cut. It will depend on weather, load, individual vehicle tolerances, whether you added an exhaust, testpipe, etc.
So, for those who do not experience fuel cut, they will gain more power from adding the pump and the new pump specific software that no longer has to be tailored for the OEM pump fuel limitations.
For those who did have fuel cut, you will have no more fuel cut and you will experience the gains in performance. If you added just the pump to those cars experiencing even mild fuel cuts (easily logged and seen on block 205) then those folks would be befitted by only adding the pump and no software but that would not be the best thing to do since the new software that takes advantage of the new pump would be available and offer more performance.
You will also be able to take advantage of the gains that could be offered from an exhaust or testpipe. If your vehicle was tuned right to the edge of fuel cut before and you added an exhaust you would see no real world gains other than fuel cut. NOw you can take advantage of those parts that good money was spent on.
This is what myself, Chris at Revo, and Keith at APR have just tried to say but maybe not in the clearest way.
cheers! Mike
jojogoya88
11-15-2007, 03:21 PM
So even adding the pump after u have software, exhaust, tp, etc.....and even getting a reflash of lets say 93 octane...
the pump wouldnt be acting to its fullest potential???
whens the pump software coming out?
bhvrdr
11-15-2007, 03:25 PM
Once you have the pump, exhaust, tp, and the pump specific software that is available from APR (or if you decide on the DIY rebuild kits then you would use Revo) then you will have enough fuel to run your car to its max potential on the K03 turbo. At that point fuel would not be your limitation but rather the turbo and cooling efficiencies of the car.
cheers! Mike
KingQuattroB7
11-15-2007, 05:08 PM
Bernhard, is the software an upgrade from the regular APR 91 (cuz im in cali) software? Or if i get the package of goodies the chip is included?
D0lphinGrey
11-16-2007, 05:43 AM
Once you have the pump, exhaust, tp, and the pump specific software that is available from APR (or if you decide on the DIY rebuild kits then you would use Revo) then you will have enough fuel to run your car to its max potential on the K03 turbo. At that point fuel would not be your limitation but rather the turbo and cooling efficiencies of the car.
cheers! Mike
I will have all the parts as you mentioned "pump, exhaust, tp, and the pump specific software" in order to extract max potential of the K03. But I'm wondering which limitation will come first, after the pump? Turbo or intercooler? Is it worthwhile getting a FMIC before upgrading the turbo?
AudiWxGuy
11-16-2007, 08:28 AM
Just got off the phone with APR. Here is the deal with the pump. It does not come with a chip. If you have a chip, they will update the software to run with the pump. However, if you don't have a chip, you'll still have to buy one if you want one. The pump does NOT come with a free chip.
I also found out that when you get an exhaust put on the car, you need to go to State II ECU software from APR, if you have APR. The good news is that if you have chip, that upgrade is free. Even if you don't use APR exhaust.
viperdsa
11-16-2007, 09:04 AM
Is there any price difference between the stage I and stage II??
AudiWxGuy
11-16-2007, 09:24 AM
No. But if you get Stage 1 then get exhaust, the Stage II upgrade is free. Or if you buy stage II and exhaust, the price is the same for the chip as it would be if you just got Stage I. Follow?
viperdsa
11-16-2007, 09:29 AM
ok. I get it.
bhvrdr
11-16-2007, 10:18 AM
Correct and keep in mind a stage II without upgrading the pump is simply having to detune your performance tune becuase of the addition of the exhaust. Or put another way, the vehicle will run stage I software fine and when you add the exhaust you may experience fuel cuts so the stage II software will prevent this and bring things back to that edge of fuel cut where you were before. In other words, until you can get the pump, no need to bother with the exhaust.
cheers! Mike
swoardrider
11-16-2007, 10:37 AM
Correct and keep in mind a stage II without upgrading the pump is simply having to detune your performance tune becuase of the addition of the exhaust. Or put another way, the vehicle will run stage I software fine and when you add the exhaust you may experience fuel cuts so the stage II software will prevent this and bring things back to that edge of fuel cut where you were before. In other words, until you can get the pump, no need to bother with the exhaust.
cheers! Mike
Mike, including the test pipe of course, do you think we will see aftermarket exhaust systems providing some more beneficial HP numbers with the new pump and software over say a car with test pipe and stock exhaust?
bhvrdr
11-16-2007, 11:01 AM
Mike, including the test pipe of course, do you think we will see aftermarket exhaust systems providing some more beneficial HP numbers with the new pump and software over say a car with test pipe and stock exhaust?
That's a very good question. If I am reading it right you are asking if basically you have a testpipe with the stock exhaust is there any reason to get an aftermarket catback? Will it help that much? Good question. Right now it is hard to say only because when I did all the testing on testpipe gains, HJS high flow cat gains, and downpipe-back exhaust gains I was limited by the stock fuel pump and actually made 0 more power with any of those mods because I was already tuned to the edge of fuel cut. Common sense from the past says is that you can pick up a few horsepower with just a catback exhaust and there is no reason you cant pick up a few hp adding that catback to a car with a testpipe but yeah the OEM cat is likely a big restriction you are dealing with. I guess I didnt really answer your question and i dont think we'll know 100% for sure until some one with the upgrade pump goes to the same dyno with their same car and tests out all those options. My hypothesis would be that the bulk of the gains would be seen eliminating that cat but that the improved catback will be good for a bit of added power as well.
cheers! Mike
4-tified
11-16-2007, 12:44 PM
To clarify again...
The OEM K03 pump APR, REvo, GIAC etc software is programmed around the factory fuel limitations. It is programmed to the edge of where people would experience fuel cut. Many people do experience fuel cut as you can see from the dozens of threads on various forums about it and many people do not experience fuel cut. It will depend on weather, load, individual vehicle tolerances, whether you added an exhaust, testpipe, etc.
So, for those who do not experience fuel cut, they will gain more power from adding the pump and the new pump specific software that no longer has to be tailored for the OEM pump fuel limitations.
For those who did have fuel cut, you will have no more fuel cut and you will experience the gains in performance. If you added just the pump to those cars experiencing even mild fuel cuts (easily logged and seen on block 205) then those folks would be befitted by only adding the pump and no software but that would not be the best thing to do since the new software that takes advantage of the new pump would be available and offer more performance.
You will also be able to take advantage of the gains that could be offered from an exhaust or testpipe. If your vehicle was tuned right to the edge of fuel cut before and you added an exhaust you would see no real world gains other than fuel cut. NOw you can take advantage of those parts that good money was spent on.
This is what myself, Chris at Revo, and Keith at APR have just tried to say but maybe not in the clearest way.
cheers! Mike
Mike,
We covered this in another thread. I think you forgot. [:)]
My comments, above, that you just responded to was also posted in that other thread from back then.
This thread has resurfaced, maybe that's why you thought I was posting those thoughts and questions again.
D0lphinGrey
11-16-2007, 08:21 PM
Once you have the pump, exhaust, tp, and the pump specific software that is available from APR (or if you decide on the DIY rebuild kits then you would use Revo) then you will have enough fuel to run your car to its max potential on the K03 turbo. At that point fuel would not be your limitation but rather the turbo and cooling efficiencies of the car.
cheers! Mike
Mike, which limitation do u think will come first, after the pump? Turbo or intercooler? Is it worthwhile getting a FMIC before upgrading the turbo?
Six Speed Turbo
11-17-2007, 04:46 AM
Mike, which limitation do u think will come first, after the pump? Turbo or intercooler? Is it worthwhile getting a FMIC before upgrading the turbo?
Good question panameras, I would think that it can only help due to the fact that you would get cooler intake temps. With the new programming I would think that it's a smart upgrade since the factory DSMIC's will probably be more over worked then they are now.
I plan on getting a pump when I get home so hopefully I will get some pretty noticable gains. I will have to wait a while since I don't come home for 14 more months..... but hey, I will let you know the outcome then.
D0lphinGrey
11-19-2007, 04:39 AM
Good question panameras, I would think that it can only help due to the fact that you would get cooler intake temps. With the new programming I would think that it's a smart upgrade since the factory DSMIC's will probably be more over worked then they are now.
I plan on getting a pump when I get home so hopefully I will get some pretty noticable gains. I will have to wait a while since I don't come home for 14 more months..... but hey, I will let you know the outcome then.
It would always help to get a larger intercooler but what Im trying to find out is the efficiency range of the stock intercoolers. I mean if the the extra power and heat generated by the stock turbo (with pump & chip) is still within the efficiency range of the stock intercoolers then theres no point wasting money on an aftermarket FMIC. Yes intake temperature will drop a little with a FMIC but you are not going to get any more HP.
So does anyone know how much HP can the stock intercoolers flow?
six speed turbo, I will probably get the pump before you come back so I will do you a favor instead and let you know the outcome before you spend the money[;)] Cheers
Six Speed Turbo
11-19-2007, 09:12 PM
Cool Beans... let me know how everything turns out.