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View Full Version : intake mani - what you think ?



andernalin_junk
09-20-2007, 11:02 AM
well, that specific mani is not for a B5 (it's for some french crap )
but i thinking of haveing one just like it

what do you think ?
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/andernalin_junk/20-09-07_1730.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/andernalin_junk/20-09-07_1731.jpg

grip_racer
09-20-2007, 11:05 AM
looks good, but needs a smaller plenum for less pressure loss

onemoremile
09-20-2007, 11:07 AM
You can start with this:
$149 at ECS. Part number ES7014.

http://ecstuning.com/stage/images/dis/3315/600/3315.jpg

SilverB5A4
09-20-2007, 11:12 AM
Seriously that is one heck of a plenum, guess it kinda depends on what its going onto but wow thats huge

solowb5
09-20-2007, 01:55 PM
Those are some short runners. Are you planing to rev to 10k with that on? Also what is up with the huge pipe welded to where normally the tb would mount to? Have any more pics of it or what its going on?

CO AVANT
09-20-2007, 02:04 PM
What ever happened to the intake mani's Bob@QEDpower was getting into production?

Don Supreme
09-20-2007, 03:07 PM
Everytime I ask him about it he has no updates.....

cleanandsimple
09-20-2007, 03:14 PM
what is the purpose for the couplers and the nice heavy duty hose clamps. i would think that it would flow better with all one piece tubes. no....?

solowb5
09-20-2007, 04:08 PM
I'm sure he used the couplers for an easier install bc there can't be much room left with the size of that plenum. It's deffenately going to hinder the air flow bc it's going to act like 2 miss matched ports. For how short those runners are he isn't going to see any gains (if any at all) way up top in the RPMs. It's probally also going to give a weaker throttle response bc of filling such a overly large plenum(I doubt a GT35r will even help). If you have ever looked into a stock manifold they do have a semi velocity stack already in there. Thats why alot of people do not change them bc they were built right from the factory. Most of all the other ones built that are made of machined parts do make power using the stock runners on a D or half round plenum that is probally twice the size of stock. Which isn't much. Theres been plenty of testing going on with the I/M for the 1.8t longitudal. So I don't know why he went this route

Wizard-of-OD
09-20-2007, 05:35 PM
You can start with this:
$149 at ECS. Part number ES7014.

http://ecstuning.com/stage/images/dis/3315/600/3315.jpg
Nope...still causes the injector to protrude into the runner thats why I have not released the production version as yet.

Using the ECS lower will be no better than using your very own stock manifold and the reality is this.Unless your making 450+whp then the intake manifold should be one of the last upgrades you do.

TighTT
09-20-2007, 05:40 PM
Nope...still causes the injector to protrude into the runner thats why I have not released the production version as yet.

Using the ECS lower will be no better than using your very own stock manifold and the reality is this.Unless your making 450+whp then the intake manifold should be one of the last upgrades you do.

2nd. Well....I still think a well built manifold helps things...even if you're below 450whp. I know it helped my TT alot...and thats only pushing 276whp and 314 wtq. [=(]

Wizard-of-OD
09-20-2007, 07:16 PM
Everytime I ask him about it he has no updates.....
Not his fault really...the company that is making them for him are whats the hold back.Bob is only making 5 manifolds and I believe all are spoken for.Whatever the case in a couple of weeks my manifold will be ready.

onemoremile
09-20-2007, 07:18 PM
I wouldn't use the ECS runners myself. Merely pointing out that they are available.

solowb5
09-20-2007, 07:52 PM
So is mike going to be using your new one wiz since his uses the stock runners?

Wizard-of-OD
09-20-2007, 11:25 PM
So is mike going to be using your new one wiz since his uses the stock runners?
The ADR manifold protrudes the injector a little more into the runner than the AEB unit so Mike is fine.....he will probably want this one too though[:p]

mike-2ptzero
09-21-2007, 06:56 AM
So is mike going to be using your new one wiz since his uses the stock runners?

Only if it gives me an improvement in power[:p]

Wizard-of-OD
10-05-2007, 12:17 AM
Only if it gives me an improvement in power[:p]
[:D]
Just too update this as I dont get time to check my pm's everyday on here.This is a general post for everyone.
There will be 2 versions of the manifold and both will have the same plenum.
Version 1 is what Mike has...stock intake manifold with a redone plenum box.We all saw the gains this bitch did.
Version 2 is what I am working on right now and will have 2 injector bungs/injector.Why did I not use a stock lower?Well I would have but I just couldnt fit 2 injectors the way I wanted them on the stock AEB manifold.Sucked for me....

The manifold should be done in 2 weeks or so.[az]
I have 4 allready spoken for so if you want one send me a pm....and you know how much I hate window shoppers.

Don Supreme
10-05-2007, 05:54 AM
Whats the cost and how much power gains can we expect?

Also, are you only making large port versions?

_audible_
10-05-2007, 05:57 AM
I'd like to know the exact same thing Don wants to know. You can pm the info if you'd like. Thanks.

mike-2ptzero
10-05-2007, 07:08 AM
Whats the cost and how much power gains can we expect?

Also, are you only making large port versions?

Well I am sure gains will be different on every car since it will depend on what mods it has and what type of power it is already making.

Don Supreme
10-05-2007, 07:28 AM
^ that goes for all mods... even a simple chip on a stock car, but still we need some kind of data.

Some dyno's with just a str8 swap....... not new IM + x +x + x

No CFM garbage just str8 HP & trq gains and loses.

I tell you this, an intake manifold will COST you HP if not done right.

Wizard-of-OD
10-05-2007, 09:18 AM
I tell you this, an intake manifold will COST you HP if not done right.
Mike Quick! Remove your manifold![:D]
If you want a small port version you can only do Version1 because version 2 will only be made for large port heads.

mike-2ptzero
10-05-2007, 09:33 AM
Mike Quick! Remove your manifold![:D]
If you want a small port version you can only do Version1 because version 2 will only be made for large port heads.

LOL.

onemoremile
10-05-2007, 10:49 AM
Don't get rid of the CFM garbage. Some of us know why it matters.

Wizard-of-OD
11-08-2007, 09:19 PM
The ADR manifold protrudes the injector a little more into the runner than the AEB unit so Mike is fine.....he will probably want this one too though[:p]
I take this statement back...turns out I didnt install the seal,haha

people still want manifolds or everyone window shopping?[:)]

onemoremile
11-08-2007, 10:43 PM
People still want to know what their results will be before buying into an unknown. Theory and rhetoric only go so far before some actual data is required. You do some testing on these things right? Dynos, CAPS, airflow?

mike-2ptzero
11-09-2007, 07:57 AM
People still want to know what their results will be before buying into an unknown. Theory and rhetoric only go so far before some actual data is required. You do some testing on these things right? Dynos, CAPS, airflow?

That would be a little hard seeing that everyone is going to have a different result since everyone has different mods. Only info that would mean anything to everyone is flow readings of his manifold and the stock one.

Wizard-of-OD
11-09-2007, 09:21 AM
That would be a little hard seeing that everyone is going to have a different result since everyone has different mods. Only info that would mean anything to everyone is flow readings of his manifold and the stock one.

And that pretty dyno you have floating around somewhere....

solowb5
11-09-2007, 09:25 AM
Well that dyno doesn't tell anything considering that wasn't the ONLY change Mike did on his engine.

black00A4
11-09-2007, 09:34 AM
Should have been cylindrical.

Wizard-of-OD
11-09-2007, 12:47 PM
Well that dyno doesn't tell anything considering that wasn't the ONLY change Mike did on his engine.
A bump in compression = 60+whp?[confused]
That manifold showed me gains than anything on the market.

mike-2ptzero
11-09-2007, 01:12 PM
Well that dyno doesn't tell anything considering that wasn't the ONLY change Mike did on his engine.

That .5:1 cr bump didnt change much. My boost levels were exactly the same before and after the engine build, so if anything the turbo was able to move more air thru the new intake manifold which gave me the nice 68whp gain. Only other change was going from 800cc injectors to 1000cc, good thing I did because those 800's weren't going to be enough with the bump in air flow. My AFR was even the same which was mid 11's on the same fuel.

solowb5
11-09-2007, 01:27 PM
Well the fact is that you did and you can't say it gave you that much. That is all I'm trying to say. Of course it gave a nice gain. No question about that.

mike-2ptzero
11-09-2007, 02:36 PM
Well the fact is that you did and you can't say it gave you that much. That is all I'm trying to say. Of course it gave a nice gain. No question about that.

Well just knowing that it gives gains isn't enough? Odd because people were buying up the dahlback manifold up at $2200 even though people showed that it gave zero gains.

b5a4lover
11-09-2007, 03:10 PM
Issam's reputation and Mike's gains would be more than enough reason for me to buy one, unfortunately im still looking for a job, or i would definitely get one. how long do i have to be able to reserve one? and what kind of price would i be looking at? cause if i can find a job, i can always break out the CC lol

solowb5
11-10-2007, 07:57 AM
Like I said before. It gave a nice gain. You just don't know the EXACT number is what i'm saying. So I find your dyno is just an estimate at what you are looking at. Take it off and put the stock one on and dyno then get put your aftermarket one one and dyno. Then give us the reall numbers. I mean you are sponsored so I'm sure this would be free.

Euro-Tuner
11-10-2007, 08:57 AM
good call, Id like to see some comparison numbers with some controls...do it up!

Wizard-of-OD
11-11-2007, 08:36 PM
You just don't know the EXACT number is what i'm saying.
Anything better than 0whp gain is good right?

I mean many in here flock to buy a $300 cold air intake that gives them a 0.289843742 whp gain...whats an extra 500?[:D]

mike-2ptzero
11-12-2007, 05:55 AM
Like I said before. It gave a nice gain. You just don't know the EXACT number is what i'm saying. So I find your dyno is just an estimate at what you are looking at. Take it off and put the stock one on and dyno then get put your aftermarket one one and dyno. Then give us the reall numbers. I mean you are sponsored so I'm sure this would be free.

Well someone else would have to do that seeing that I no longer have a stock ndbw throttle body to put on a stock manifold. Other problem would be that since I am running a stand alone I would have to retune if there was a big flow difference between the 2 manifold, this is because the stand alone is tuned for the amount of boost pressure and if the CFM is way less with the stock manifold my car will end up running very rich. A car running the stock manifold and maf setup would work better for this testing because the ecu will add more fuel for the extra flow since the maf sensor readings will be higher.


I have friends that own shops with dyno's, so if Issam wants to build a manifold for a stock throttle body and someone is willing to allow me to use their car for testing then I can always get discounted dyno time to do it.

Wizard-of-OD
11-13-2007, 11:30 PM
so if Issam wants to build a manifold for a stock throttle body and someone is willing to allow me to use their car for testing then I can always get discounted dyno time to do it.

Will build a manifold for whoever wants but I do not think testing is in the works as in my opinion the manifold has been tested.People went out there and bought a Dahlback manifold after it was advertised @ 30hp gain.I remember reading on the AW TT forums where people were like "ye I can feel the gains all through the powerband".It was only until the manifold was dynoed that people found it to be no better than stock....but yet numourous Dahlback manifolds sold (even I bought one).

This manifold will make power,how much?It depends on the individual.For me to dyno it given every single variable would be time consuming and uneconomic.Not going to happen,Mike got the prototype,it did its job and did it well and now its time to get these things out there.
[:)]

Sad part is alot of the big turbo A4's are across the pond,not in the US.I can count the US cars with 1 hand [:(],everyone wants to build a High output A4 for $800....its not going to happen.

AudiA4_20T
11-14-2007, 12:04 AM
Hey Issam I'm getting there man! By the way give 2 questions

1. Are you going to have a big port one with just 1 injector bung?
2. Are they going to be able to fit VR6 TBs or S4 TBs?

mike-2ptzero
11-14-2007, 07:24 AM
Hey Issam I'm getting there man! By the way give 2 questions

1. Are you going to have a big port one with just 1 injector bung?
2. Are they going to be able to fit VR6 TBs or S4 TBs?

You just described the manifold he made for my car. I am running a VR6 ndbw throttle body on that manifold with single 1000cc injectors with large ports for the AEB manifold on my car.

Don Supreme
11-14-2007, 07:53 AM
Will build a manifold for whoever wants but I do not think testing is in the works as in my opinion the manifold has been tested.People went out there and bought a Dahlback manifold after it was advertised @ 30hp gain.I remember reading on the AW TT forums where people were like "ye I can feel the gains all through the powerband".It was only until the manifold was dynoed that people found it to be no better than stock....but yet numourous Dahlback manifolds sold (even I bought one).

This manifold will make power,how much?It depends on the individual.For me to dyno it given every single variable would be time consuming and uneconomic.Not going to happen,Mike got the prototype,it did its job and did it well and now its time to get these things out there.
[:)]

Sad part is alot of the big turbo A4's are across the pond,not in the US.I can count the US cars with 1 hand [:(],everyone wants to build a High output A4 for $800....its not going to happen.


Your example about the dahlback manifold is exactly why people are hesistant about buying something that has not been proven.

The circumstances under which Mike's car was dynoed are not ideal. The motor was just rebuilt and retuned. There are way too many variables. Besides the bottom end the head was also freshned up IIRC.

How hard is it to put one of these on a car running a 2871 + and get some numbers? I mean seriously.............

You talk about VAG owners wanting big HP for no money well I ask why do VAG owners have to deal with VAG tuners that don't spend the time to fully document their product?

You think I can write some software for a customer, put it into production and not test the hell out of it first????

Tifun
11-14-2007, 07:55 AM
You just described the manifold he made for my car. I am running a VR6 ndbw throttle body on that manifold with single 1000cc injectors with large ports for the AEB manifold on my car.
Are you rocking the 2.9tb or the 2.8tb? I'm curious as to which one you are running. I eventually will be dabbling with the intake mani idea. But first things first lol, gotta go bigger than this tiny gt28r [:p].

mike-2ptzero
11-14-2007, 08:37 AM
Are you rocking the 2.9tb or the 2.8tb? I'm curious as to which one you are running. I eventually will be dabbling with the intake mani idea. But first things first lol, gotta go bigger than this tiny gt28r [:p].

Not sure, it is a OBD1 throttle body.

AudiA4_20T
11-14-2007, 09:20 AM
Your example about the dahlback manifold is exactly why people are hesistant about buying something that has not been proven.

The circumstances under which Mike's car was dynoed are not ideal. The motor was just rebuilt and retuned. There are way too many variables. Besides the bottom end the head was also freshned up IIRC.

How hard is it to put one of these on a car running a 2871 + and get some numbers? I mean seriously.............

You talk about VAG owners wanting big HP for no money well I ask why do VAG owners have to deal with VAG tuners that don't spend the time to fully document their product?

You think I can write some software for a customer, put it into production and not test the hell out of it first????

Hey Sean how do you really feel about it?

onemoremile
11-14-2007, 10:00 AM
I just want to see that there was some testing on the final version. There has to be someone that will run before and after testing on a dyno or at least CAPS times. Your example of the Dahlback manifold and the recent turbo manifold that wouldn't hold a turbo are reasons why we should be skeptical. Theory sells concepts, results sell products.

Have you tested this on your own car? There has to be an 1.8t around you that will log, swap, log, and swap back (or buy) to help you get some basic results.

There is no reason to test every possible turbo configuration. That is completely unrealistic both as an assumption and an excuse. To do a few that encompassed the range would be quite simple. A chipped K03 or K04, something in the stage 3 to 2871r range, and something in the 3071r to 35r range. I'm sure you can swap intake manifolds and do a few logging runs in a couple hours. Do the same thing Tyrol did with their side mount intercoolers.

The larger turbo cars will be the most problematic with a quick swap. 5 or 10% difference in flow on a K04 or K04 might not max out the fueling but a nice increase on a larger turbo might. If that happens it is worth noting and was obviously moving more air.

mike-2ptzero
11-14-2007, 11:55 AM
I just want to see that there was some testing on the final version. There has to be someone that will run before and after testing on a dyno or at least CAPS times. Your example of the Dahlback manifold and the recent turbo manifold that wouldn't hold a turbo are reasons why we should be skeptical. Theory sells concepts, results sell products.

Have you tested this on your own car? There has to be an 1.8t around you that will log, swap, log, and swap back (or buy) to help you get some basic results.

There is no reason to test every possible turbo configuration. That is completely unrealistic both as an assumption and an excuse. To do a few that encompassed the range would be quite simple. A chipped K03 or K04, something in the stage 3 to 2871r range, and something in the 3071r to 35r range. I'm sure you can swap intake manifolds and do a few logging runs in a couple hours. Do the same thing Tyrol did with their side mount intercoolers.

The larger turbo cars will be the most problematic with a quick swap. 5 or 10% difference in flow on a K04 or K04 might not max out the fueling but a nice increase on a larger turbo might. If that happens it is worth noting and was obviously moving more air.

I think you have Issam mixed up with 034, which is the shop that built that manifold that wouldn't even hold a turbo. You do understand that Issam doesn't work for 034, goes to school in Canada while 034 is in Norcal?[confused]

As we all know testing costs money, money spent on testing then gets forced back into the costs of the product which then drives product prices up. It seems too many people aren't willing to actually try something new to see how it works and end up wanting everyone else to do it for them. Dont we have any other A4 owners on this forum with a set of balls between their legs?[;)]

Tifun
11-14-2007, 12:11 PM
Not sure, it is a OBD1 throttle body.

Odds are it's the 2.8tb then. Would have been extra cool to get the 2.9tb from the euro Corrado's. They is biggAr [:p]


All this talk makes me want to get started. I already have a spare mani that I plan on hacking to all hell, then from there it's whatever. I made one years ago when I built my old 2.0 8v turbo haha. It was horrid, the welds sucks ass, and it flowed like crap. But I did gain a lot of good experiences in the process. Hopefully when I start this one it will be successful [:D]

AudiA4_20T
11-14-2007, 12:17 PM
I think you have Issam mixed up with 034, which is the shop that built that manifold that wouldn't even hold a turbo. You do understand that Issam doesn't work for 034, goes to school in Canada while 034 is in Norcal?[confused]

As we all know testing costs money, money spent on testing then gets forced back into the costs of the product which then drives product prices up. It seems too many people aren't willing to actually try something new to see how it works and end up wanting everyone else to do it for them. Dont we have any other A4 owners on this forum with a set of balls between their legs?[;)]

Honestly Mike, 2 dyno pulls when the manifold is already made costs like $50... Seriously if someone had the manifold Im sure we could get enough BT fans on here to donate for a few free pulls, but we need the intake mani first. If Issam could get one that we could use and send back, and it had good results, the money made from posting those dynos would easily pay back furthermore make the money come in exponentially opposed to how much it would make without any proof and an $800 price tag

mike-2ptzero
11-14-2007, 12:43 PM
Honestly Mike, 2 dyno pulls when the manifold is already made costs like $50... Seriously if someone had the manifold Im sure we could get enough BT fans on here to donate for a few free pulls, but we need the intake mani first. If Issam could get one that we could use and send back, and it had good results, the money made from posting those dynos would easily pay back furthermore make the money come in exponentially opposed to how much it would make without any proof and an $800 price tag

2 dyno pulls dont cost $50 bucks when you have to work on the car between those 2 runs. PLus the fact that dyno owners dont allow you to work on the car while it is on the rollers, this means you have to pay an hour to make 1 run and then another hr to make the 2nd run with the different manifold. Dyno shops charge by the hr, not by the half hr or by pull. Only time they charge for a set amount of pulls is when it is a dyno day and they set the price for a set amount of pulls for each car. Lets remember TIME = money no matter what part of the testing your talking about.

I am sure he could make one for someone to try, but usually that means someone has to buy it then do the testing. Even I had to pay a price for the very first manifold and I posted up results from what I gained with it. Numbers from flow testing just dont lie and do give a good idea of what type of gain people are going to get with it. Just very simple, more flow = more power.

AudiA4_20T
11-14-2007, 03:14 PM
2 dyno pulls dont cost $50 bucks when you have to work on the car between those 2 runs. PLus the fact that dyno owners dont allow you to work on the car while it is on the rollers, this means you have to pay an hour to make 1 run and then another hr to make the 2nd run with the different manifold. Dyno shops charge by the hr, not by the half hr or by pull. Only time they charge for a set amount of pulls is when it is a dyno day and they set the price for a set amount of pulls for each car. Lets remember TIME = money no matter what part of the testing your talking about.

I am sure he could make one for someone to try, but usually that means someone has to buy it then do the testing. Even I had to pay a price for the very first manifold and I posted up results from what I gained with it. Numbers from flow testing just dont lie and do give a good idea of what type of gain people are going to get with it. Just very simple, more flow = more power.

Fair enough, what are the flow numbers compared to a stock IM then?

ILoveT
11-14-2007, 03:35 PM
2 dyno pulls dont cost $50 bucks when you have to work on the car between those 2 runs. PLus the fact that dyno owners dont allow you to work on the car while it is on the rollers, this means you have to pay an hour to make 1 run and then another hr to make the 2nd run with the different manifold. Dyno shops charge by the hr, not by the half hr or by pull. Only time they charge for a set amount of pulls is when it is a dyno day and they set the price for a set amount of pulls for each car. Lets remember TIME = money no matter what part of the testing your talking about.

I am sure he could make one for someone to try, but usually that means someone has to buy it then do the testing. Even I had to pay a price for the very first manifold and I posted up results from what I gained with it. Numbers from flow testing just dont lie and do give a good idea of what type of gain people are going to get with it. Just very simple, more flow = more power.

Alright so lets say the cost of dyno pull, swap manifold, dyno pull, then swap manifold back costs $500. Could that $500 really be reflected much if this product was put in to production? I don't think it is unreasonable for the consumer to be asking for results. The company is basically saying, "Hey this manifold is suppose to work." Am I completely off base?

mike-2ptzero
11-14-2007, 04:24 PM
Alright so lets say the cost of dyno pull, swap manifold, dyno pull, then swap manifold back costs $500. Could that $500 really be reflected much if this product was put in to production? I don't think it is unreasonable for the consumer to be asking for results. The company is basically saying, "Hey this manifold is suppose to work." Am I completely off base?

Well I guess thats up to Issam. Well the product works, we already know that. Most of the time it ends up being customers that end up buying something new and doing some testing on their own car, well maybe I am just used to doing that for the last 7 years. Then people post up their impressions, this is still done to this day with many products for the B5's. Just look at all of the rear diff mounts and turbo manifolds that just hit the market but yet dont have any testing data along with them.

Wizard-of-OD
11-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Wow this turned into 1 cluster dyno fuck....


Hey Issam I'm getting there man! By the way give 2 questions

1. Are you going to have a big port one with just 1 injector bung?
2. Are they going to be able to fit VR6 TBs or S4 TBs?
1. Big port or small port,they will have only 1 rail of injectors.
2. Throttle body is dependant on the buyer but please dont go over board.Obviously I will offer the stock throttle body as a base and every additional throttle body will be extra.


Your example about the dahlback manifold is exactly why people are hesistant about buying something that has not been proven.
Yet Dahlback sold through TJM over 15 of these pieces...hesitant allright....


The circumstances under which Mike's car was dynoed are not ideal. The motor was just rebuilt and retuned. There are way too many variables. Besides the bottom end the head was also freshned up IIRC.
So from 498whp to 556whp is from an engine freshen up?I dont think so...
The manifold + the VR6 throttle body does its job well.I allready have 4 people SERIOUSLY pm'ing me for a manifold.They dont need to see any back to back dynos because they can use reason.


How hard is it to put one of these on a car running a 2871 + and get some numbers? I mean seriously.............
Buy it and find out[;)]


You talk about VAG owners wanting big HP for no money well I ask why do VAG owners have to deal with VAG tuners that don't spend the time to fully document their product?
Hey now your being a bit unfair....If the product was not fully developed,Mike would not have seen it.Simple.....
The manifold was a big plenum,velocity stacks and an almost centre throttle body.Why wouldnt it make gains?

AudiA4_20T
11-14-2007, 05:09 PM
Hey Issam off topic but do you work for 034 or are u just a supplier? What exactly is your job... because it seems like u have a big shop to work with

onemoremile
11-14-2007, 05:46 PM
I think you have Issam mixed up with 034, which is the shop that built that manifold that wouldn't even hold a turbo. You do understand that Issam doesn't work for 034, goes to school in Canada while 034 is in Norcal?[confused]

As we all know testing costs money, money spent on testing then gets forced back into the costs of the product which then drives product prices up. It seems too many people aren't willing to actually try something new to see how it works and end up wanting everyone else to do it for them. Dont we have any other A4 owners on this forum with a set of balls between their legs?[;)]

I know who these guys are. I didn't say he worked for Dahlback either. Just implied that enough people have paid top dollar for items that haven't met their expectations. If a company is willing to set realistic expectations then they will be rewarded for it.

onemoremile
11-14-2007, 05:49 PM
They dont need to see any back to back dynos because they can use reason.


That is what also sold the Dahlback and ABD manifolds. I can understand building a prototype with the best of intentions but a few iterations have to be made to sort out the best design. This requires some research and development but that is how better parts get engineered. Different plenum sizes, different velocity stack angles, radii, or protrusion length, different runner length and/or area, etc.. Lots of things to tweak. Lots of room to improve on a prototype.

Wizard-of-OD
11-14-2007, 06:24 PM
Hey Issam off topic but do you work for 034 or are u just a supplier? What exactly is your job... because it seems like u have a big shop to work with
I work closely with Javad.I run my own companies...this is just a hobby of mine

This requires some research and development but that is how better parts get engineered. Different plenum sizes, different velocity stack angles, radii, or protrusion length, different runner length and/or area, etc.. Lots of things to tweak. Lots of room to improve on a prototype.
Well why dont you take up that job and let me know how it works out.[:)]
Mike asked for a design and what he got he was very pleased with.

xr4tic
11-14-2007, 09:10 PM
As great as a 50+ HP increase was on Mike's car, it's an extreme case, and if anyone thinks they'll get the same gains on a near stock motor, they're extremely gullible.

Put your money where your mouth (fingers?) is - do a dyno on an average big turbo car, something in the neighborhood of 350 crank HP.

Let's see stock manifold vs. stock w/large TB vs. your manifold.

I thought there was some talk about doing just that in the original manifold post, but I guess it never happened.

If there is a decent gain, you'll definately see more orders. Just saying "Trust me, it works" will only get you so far.

Tifun
11-14-2007, 09:23 PM
Everyone is aware that it really is somewhat simple to build a flowbench right? My buddy built one with an old shop vac and some other crap like pingpong balls etc...

onemoremile
11-15-2007, 06:28 AM
I work closely with Javad.I run my own companies...this is just a hobby of mine

Well why dont you take up that job and let me know how it works out.[:)]
Mike asked for a design and what he got he was very pleased with.


This isn't my business venture. I'm making nothing here. I'll be happy to model it in SolidWorks08, run FEA tests with CosmosFlow and optimize it for whatever rates you would like. Then I'll run a couple prototypes on a few different engine configurations and provide all the data you need for marketing and product backup. All processes come with a warranty and quality certifications.

This is just a basic product development model for a reverse engineered prototype. If you want to get into pulse tuning that is extra. My firm is Adaptive Design Group and has over a dozen patents. Always happy to help. [:D]

onemoremile
11-15-2007, 06:30 AM
Everyone is aware that it really is somewhat simple to build a flowbench right? My buddy built one with an old shop vac and some other crap like pingpong balls etc...

Even quicker to swap it onto a car and do CAPS runs. [wrench]

mike-2ptzero
11-15-2007, 07:55 AM
As great as a 50+ HP increase was on Mike's car, it's an extreme case, and if anyone thinks they'll get the same gains on a near stock motor, they're extremely gullible.

Put your money where your mouth (fingers?) is - do a dyno on an average big turbo car, something in the neighborhood of 350 crank HP.

Let's see stock manifold vs. stock w/large TB vs. your manifold.

I thought there was some talk about doing just that in the original manifold post, but I guess it never happened.

If there is a decent gain, you'll definately see more orders. Just saying "Trust me, it works" will only get you so far.


50hp gain? I got nearly a 70whp gain with the manifold, thats almost 90chp. Those numbers are also from doing pulls on a dyno that has a 30% loss, the gain would have been much higher if I ran on a standard dyno were we get 22% loss. Doing the math it comes out that I was able to get a 97.15 chp gain on the new tune which included using the new manifold.

Don Supreme
11-15-2007, 12:33 PM
I made $50,000 in one week using this method. Don't wait, BUY NOW!

In all seriousness, I wanted an IM so bad, but excuse me if I don't have money to add another untested part to my car.

My turbo already surges and I know I could use the extra flow (less restriction), but maybe I should invest in a HEAD (Big port + PP), CAMS, or IM. Ideally I would do them all, and all @ the same time, but unfortunately I don't have that kind of money right now.

Hence the need for MORE DATA.

Wizard-of-OD
11-15-2007, 05:43 PM
I'll be happy to model it in SolidWorks08
If your designing manifolds in SW08 I feel very sorry for you my friend.

but excuse me if I don't have money to add another untested part to my car.
If you think it is untested then you are ignorant to Mike's results.

One of the buyers of the production manifold has stepped up to the plate and has offered to the dyno the manifold against his small port unit.I will post the results when they arrive.

Until then happy hunting[:)]

Dietbudda
11-15-2007, 06:00 PM
I'm gonna keep an eye on this, i'd be more then willing to be the test mule if i didn't have college payments.

mike-2ptzero
11-15-2007, 06:10 PM
I'm gonna keep an eye on this, i'd be more then willing to be the test mule if i didn't have college payments.

Try having a 1 year old kid.

Wizard-of-OD
11-15-2007, 07:12 PM
i'd be more then willing to be the test mule if i didn't have college payments.
If I was given a Dollar for everytime someone on Audizine typed the above Id be ....well you know the rest.

onemoremile
11-15-2007, 07:37 PM
If your designing manifolds in SW08 I feel very sorry for you my friend.

If you think it is untested then you are ignorant to Mike's results.

One of the buyers of the production manifold has stepped up to the plate and has offered to the dyno the manifold against his small port unit.I will post the results when they arrive.

Until then happy hunting[:)]


What software would you model it in? Uni, Catia, Pro-E? Got access to them all. I've got SW08 at home. Much better than most of the rest for little projects like this. Regardless, I offer help and you start mocking? What the hell has gotten into you?

I know of Mike's results. Not really all that ignorant either. That wasn't exactly a simple A/B test. Most rebuilds yield power without any external changes. Just rebuilt the aluminum small block 427 and picked up lots of power. Then changed the carb for even more. Then tuned for more. Now if at that point we pulled a part and retuned we would have viable data. Assuming all that other work did nothing is ridiculous and you know that. Figuring how much it did is impossible which is why that test is flawed.

All I'm asking is that you back up your claims. I'd like to see the same thing from other folks in the business. For example, I'd love to see what Bob's built heads do for a car. I can assume that I'd get great results from your intake manifold, Bob's head, and an 034 exhaust manifold with downpipe and exhaust but I'd have to gamble to find out. If a part underperforms then I'm supposed to write it off as the cost of development. Shifting such burdens to the consumer is not a trait of good business.

onemoremile
11-15-2007, 07:37 PM
If I was given a Dollar for everytime someone on Audizine typed the above Id be ....

...funded well enough to do this the right way. [:D]

mike-2ptzero
11-15-2007, 08:23 PM
What software would you model it in? Uni, Catia, Pro-E? Got access to them all. I've got SW08 at home. Much better than most of the rest for little projects like this. Regardless, I offer help and you start mocking? What the hell has gotten into you?

I know of Mike's results. Not really all that ignorant either. That wasn't exactly a simple A/B test. Most rebuilds yield power without any external changes. Just rebuilt the aluminum small block 427 and picked up lots of power. Then changed the carb for even more. Then tuned for more. Now if at that point we pulled a part and retuned we would have viable data. Assuming all that other work did nothing is ridiculous and you know that. Figuring how much it did is impossible which is why that test is flawed.

All I'm asking is that you back up your claims. I'd like to see the same thing from other folks in the business. For example, I'd love to see what Bob's built heads do for a car. I can assume that I'd get great results from your intake manifold, Bob's head, and an 034 exhaust manifold with downpipe and exhaust but I'd have to gamble to find out. If a part underperforms then I'm supposed to write it off as the cost of development. Shifting such burdens to the consumer is not a trait of good business.



My rebuild wasn't because I had bad compression. I had to have it rebuilt because the people that built it the first time didn't balalance it so plenty of the bolts backed out to the point that the car stopped running and wouldn't restart. Only other difference between the new build was a .5:1 CR bump which gave me a 20psi higher reading when doing a CR test, 1mm larger intake valves and larger injectors because I was running the 800cc injectors near their limit. I dont see all of those together bumping me from 500whp to 600+whp.

How is it a burden on the consumer? Even if Issam did post up #'s each customer is going to get a different gain and even those that do buy the manifold would end up doing a before/after testing anyway to see exactly what gain they ended up with. In the end all of that gets posted up anyway. This is exactly how people found out that the Dahlback IM had no or very little gains other then having a much closer flow rating on all 4 runners.

onemoremile
11-16-2007, 08:18 AM
My rebuild wasn't because I had bad compression. I had to have it rebuilt because the people that built it the first time didn't balalance it so plenty of the bolts backed out to the point that the car stopped running and wouldn't restart. Only other difference between the new build was a .5:1 CR bump which gave me a 20psi higher reading when doing a CR test, 1mm larger intake valves and larger injectors because I was running the 800cc injectors near their limit. I dont see all of those together bumping me from 500whp to 600+whp.

How is it a burden on the consumer? Even if Issam did post up #'s each customer is going to get a different gain and even those that do buy the manifold would end up doing a before/after testing anyway to see exactly what gain they ended up with. In the end all of that gets posted up anyway. This is exactly how people found out that the Dahlback IM had no or very little gains other then having a much closer flow rating on all 4 runners.


Did those that bought the Dahlback and ABD manifolds get their money back after finding out those expensive parts didn't live up to expectations? Burden of proof should not lie on the consumer's end. That is where setting realistic expectations come into play. There is nothing wrong with end user development as long as there are appropriate discounts and the option to return a part.

I don't doubt that this intake manifold is better than stock. The theory checks out and all the modifications stated make sense. It would be nice to know that at a given power level it yields a nominal bump in power.

Wizard-of-OD
11-16-2007, 02:16 PM
What software would you model it in? Uni, Catia, Pro-E? Got access to them all. I've got SW08 at home. Much better than most of the rest for little projects like this. Regardless, I offer help and you start mocking? What the hell has gotten into you?.
I was joking,relax[:p]
I use Solid Edge

onemoremile
11-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Right on. You do any CFD on it? Cool stuff to play around with.

mike-2ptzero
11-17-2007, 04:54 AM
Did those that bought the Dahlback and ABD manifolds get their money back after finding out those expensive parts didn't live up to expectations? Burden of proof should not lie on the consumer's end. That is where setting realistic expectations come into play. There is nothing wrong with end user development as long as there are appropriate discounts and the option to return a part.

I don't doubt that this intake manifold is better than stock. The theory checks out and all the modifications stated make sense. It would be nice to know that at a given power level it yields a nominal bump in power.

I dont believe they did get their money, which is why there were always a bunch of them floating around being sold as used manifolds. Actually burden of proof was put on my shoulders seeing that I was willing to put the manifold on my car to see what type of gains I would get but it just never got on my car till the car went back to 034 to figure out why my car wouldn't start. I dont think anyone else is going to have the burden put on them seeing that most customers buying it will end up seeing what type of gain they end up getting anyway. Nearly everyone here seems to love putting their car on a dyno anyway.[:D]

xr4tic
11-17-2007, 12:23 PM
50hp gain? I got nearly a 70whp gain with the manifold, thats almost 90chp. Those numbers are also from doing pulls on a dyno that has a 30% loss, the gain would have been much higher if I ran on a standard dyno were we get 22% loss. Doing the math it comes out that I was able to get a 97.15 chp gain on the new tune which included using the new manifold.

Sorry, couldn't remember the exact number. However, you're downplaying the effects of the compression bump and fresh rebuild. In the past, didn't you say your car would've ran better times if it wasn't a "tired motor"? Now you have a fresh rebuild, and are saying it doesn't make a difference.



If you think it is untested then you are ignorant to Mike's results.


Again, Mike's car is an extreme example, and it wasn't the only change done to his motor. Definately not a conclusive test, especially since no one on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) has a car like Mike's

mike-2ptzero
11-17-2007, 12:42 PM
Sorry, couldn't remember the exact number. However, you're downplaying the effects of the compression bump and fresh rebuild. In the past, didn't you say your car would've ran better times if it wasn't a "tired motor"? Now you have a fresh rebuild, and are saying it doesn't make a difference.



Again, Mike's car is an extreme example, and it wasn't the only change done to his motor. Definately not a conclusive test, especially since no one on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) has a car like Mike's

I think you have been out of the game a little too long john.[;)][:p]

I had my engine refreshed right before it had to be rebuilt, so I wasn't on a tired motor at all. Maybe your thinking of back well before I ever went to 034 for the stand alone. The 488whp was done on a fresh motor with good 8:1 compression and 125psi readings in all 4 cylinders. The reason the CR got bumped up .5:1 was because I ended up getting a new set of JE pistons, this is because the old ones had marks from valve float with the stock valves and valve springs. This is why I also had the valvetrain replaced so I wouldn't have valve float seeing that I run to 8500 every time I race the car.



So to catch you up on the history of my car.

Car was running GIAC chip, car went to 034 to get stand alone and ended up getting all new rings/bearings with a bunch of other stuff, when they were done it was making 488whp. I raced that a few times, then the engine stopped running and wouldn't start again. This is when the car went back to 034 so they could find out what was wrong. Rebuilt the top/bottom end, changed a few things and they retuned the new setup to 556whp. This is what I have now.[:D]

Don Supreme
11-17-2007, 02:32 PM
Yeah Mike, but what i'm saying is simply rebuilding the motor may have yielded some more power.

Mainly the head..... After running that head for all those years of hard racing the valves seats may have worn, the valve guides. Not to mention the damage the being caused from all the years of valve float, etc.

I am sure you picked up power from a nicely done head refresher.

mike-2ptzero
11-17-2007, 04:14 PM
Yeah Mike, but what i'm saying is simply rebuilding the motor may have yielded some more power.

Mainly the head..... After running that head for all those years of hard racing the valves seats may have worn, the valve guides. Not to mention the damage the being caused from all the years of valve float, etc.

I am sure you picked up power from a nicely done head refresher.

Yes the rebuild of the motor might have if it wasn't for the fact that the tuning had to be changed because of the bump in compression. More compression means I had to run less advance timing for the same octane level. This is one of the reasons the car had to be retuned on the dyno.


I didn't have valve float issues till I started running to 8500 which was just before having the engine rebuilt. If I had valve float issues before that it would have been seen when they put in the new rings and bearings, which they didn't since I was only going to 8k at that point.


You can think what you want about the head, believe me there was nothing wrong with it. Reason I know this is because when they changed the rings and bearings I also had the head fully tested. Why wouldn't I seeing that it was off the car anyway.

You guys really think I do things half ass? In 7 years of having my A4 have you ever seen me cut corners? Seems you guys dont know me as I thought you did. [:(] [;)]

xr4tic
11-17-2007, 09:33 PM
nah, if you had bad valve guides/seals, you'd probably have had a ton of oil/blowby issues. I doubt that was the case.

It's possible that the drop in timing + 0.5 bump in compression evened out, but I doubt it. Was the re-tune done before or after the manifold?

If it was retuned after the manifold, that is yet another variable, most people don't have that option

mike-2ptzero
11-18-2007, 03:32 AM
nah, if you had bad valve guides/seals, you'd probably have had a ton of oil/blowby issues. I doubt that was the case.

It's possible that the drop in timing + 0.5 bump in compression evened out, but I doubt it. Was the re-tune done before or after the manifold?

If it was retuned after the manifold, that is yet another variable, most people don't have that option

It was retuned after the manifold, but remember I am running a stand alone that uses a map sensor for the fuel map instead of a maf like most people that have a chip tune. This means a increase in air flow with a intake manifold for them means the maf readings will increase which in turn increases how much fuel ends up in the cylinder. With increased air flow on a map only setup this means leaning out since the CFM/psi is no longer the same.

Wizard-of-OD
11-18-2007, 12:03 PM
John's old Mike...come on you should know better. :D

Will a flow bench test be enough?

mike-2ptzero
11-19-2007, 06:46 AM
John's old Mike...come on you should know better. :D

Will a flow bench test be enough?

Aren't we all? [:p]

Well I know I am not young anymore.

onemoremile
11-19-2007, 10:18 AM
Flow bench results would be nice. Before and after CAPS runs would be even better.

ModifiedA4
11-19-2007, 10:45 AM
speaking of flow bench testing...everyone has seen this thread?

its a pretty good example of intake manifold testing and comparison.

http://www.elitedubs.com/index.php/topic,2275.0.html

Tifun
11-19-2007, 10:52 AM
^ great link.

Wizard-of-OD
12-01-2007, 09:13 AM
The dahlback in that manifold was mine....

So the Manifolds are done.All interested parties PM me.