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ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 07:01 PM
Just curious-why does it seem that the a4's with the 2871 elims and 300 whp only run 12.9's when I was running 13.2's on my 2nd gen eclipse gsx (another heavy car) with only 290ish hp at the crank? Not looking to rag the 1.8 as much as wonder why the 60 so hp doesn't go much further. I'm sure I'll be attacked about the different animal thing but I'm trying to decide whether or not to go elim. if shooting for low 12's?

Kyle H
07-07-2007, 07:19 PM
It's probably due to weight.


How much do the 2nd gen eclipses weigh?

pipe7284
07-07-2007, 07:22 PM
i say the a4`s are alot heavier than the eclipse.

Das General
07-07-2007, 07:29 PM
drivetrain loss?

Kyle H
07-07-2007, 07:30 PM
I don't know how the dsm could have less dt loss, they're both awd.

Ewok_Fetus
07-07-2007, 07:44 PM
Probably how the power is delivered... The 2.0 is probably putting out more torque than the 1.8. Not to mention, the A4 is still heavier!

ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 07:50 PM
I would think the dll is better on the longitudinal setup vs the transverse dsm. I also had 18's and 13.1" rotors on front and 12's on back. The big brakes are supposed to kill hp because the weight is further out from the center of rotation. I just looked up curb weights for the two and the a4 1.8t is 2998lbs vs the gsx at 3120???

Devious27t
07-07-2007, 08:02 PM
Just curious-why does it seem that the a4's with the 2871 elims and 300 whp only run 12.9's when I was running 13.2's on my 2nd gen eclipse gsx (another heavy car) with only 290ish hp at the crank? Not looking to rag the 1.8 as much as wonder why the 60 so hp doesn't go much further. I'm sure I'll be attacked about the different animal thing but I'm trying to decide whether or not to go elim. if shooting for low 12's?

for one you are looking at about a point different in compression between the engines aside from the .2 liters difference as well. You can get alot more timing on a pump file. A buddy and I built a GSX that had 450awhp on 91 octane. they are fantastic modding platforms.

as for peak power being equal, power under the curve can vary heavily and you have to look at that versus power to weight ratio....

juju4uofa
07-07-2007, 08:05 PM
Also, the weight you found for the A4 is for FWD. Add another 300lbs for Quattro.

ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 08:10 PM
Also, the weight you found for the A4 is for FWD. Add another 300lbs for Quattro.
Sorry about that -- 3241 for the quattro vs 3120 for a total of 121 lbs. in favor of the gsx.

Kyle H
07-07-2007, 08:15 PM
So it must be the torque curve of the two motors.

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 08:21 PM
^^^ muahahahah

ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 08:21 PM
Devious-are you saying the longer gears or the horsepower is in a broader range or both on the dsm? I wish I could have the audi interior and tranny reliability w/4g63 power and reliability. The a4's seem to stay in their power band with the eliminators
upon shifts neither getting out of 4th in the quarter at that level (low 13/high 12).

NoFlyZone
07-07-2007, 08:28 PM
I own and am the original owner of a 1989 Mirage Turbo with a 4G61 motor. I know it's not exactly the same as the 4G63 but the way power is delivered between the 1.8 and the 4G61 is very different. The Mirage delivers it old school turbo, from little at the bottom end to torque steer and hang-on. It's light and direct, like a gas powered skateboard.

I've just rebuilt the motor in the Mirage after 275K miles and now looking for an aftermarket turbo, probably a 16G. It will be an interesting dual [drive]

I know I'm not quite on topic, forgive me [:p]

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 08:33 PM
Just curious-why does it seem that the a4's with the 2871 elims and 300 whp only run 12.9's when I was running 13.2's on my 2nd gen eclipse gsx (another heavy car) with only 290ish hp at the crank? Not looking to rag the 1.8 as much as wonder why the 60 so hp doesn't go much further. I'm sure I'll be attacked about the different animal thing but I'm trying to decide whether or not to go elim. if shooting for low 12's?

ther are many guys here in this forum that have run 12.7, 12.8 in the 1/4 miles
wit that setup, but one thing should come in mind.. in e.x if u have car that goes 14.0 in the 1/4 mile, iit need a little less HP to make it go 13.0 or 13.5, then when u trying to go from 13.0 break in the 12.'s.
if we have a a4 that has 2871 elmi. setup making 300awhp at 12.8, in the 1/4 mile, now if u wonna have faster time lets say 12.0 its gonna take take my another good 120hpto just to drop that ..8, but lets say if i have an a4 chip exhaust fmic a 180awhp at 14.9 in the 1/4 miles and if iwant to make it in the 14.0 a nice k04 set up would bring me to 205. 210awhp. So to dropp almost a second of the time i need just 30-50 HP.. i dunno if i made my self clear [hail]

Kyle H
07-07-2007, 08:38 PM
i dunno if i made my self clear [hail]

Haha, I had to read it a couple of times, but the third or fourth time it made sense.


Basically the faster your car is, the harder it is to drop your time. It's a lot easier to go from 15 seconds to 14 seconds than it is from 13 flat to 12 flat.

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 08:38 PM
^^^i came up with a shorter answer.. THE FASTER U TRY TO GO THE MORE.. ALOT MORE HP ITS NEEDED

ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 08:50 PM
ther are many guys here in this forum that have run 12.7, 12.8 in the 1/4 miles
wit that setup, but one thing should come in mind.. in e.x if u have car that goes 14.0 in the 1/4 mile, iit need a little less HP to make it go 13.0 or 13.5, then when u trying to go from 13.0 break in the 12.'s.
if we have a a4 that has 2871 elmi. setup making 300awhp at 12.8, in the 1/4 mile, now if u wonna have faster time lets say 12.0 its gonna take take my another good 120hpto just to drop that ..8, but lets say if i have an a4 chip exhaust fmic a 180awhp at 14.9 in the 1/4 miles and if iwant to make it in the 14.0 a nice k04 set up would bring me to 205. 210awhp. So to dropp almost a second of the time i need just 30-50 HP.. i dunno if i made my self clear [hail]

I followed what you're getting at but I'm talking .3 of a second in comparison to over 60 hp. not quite down at that magical 12.0 brick wall that seems to cost so much money to break. Again-bad ex but my buddies evo has around 370 crank and is running 12.2s-only slightly lighter than an a4. Quick calculations show 300whp w/15% dll to be about 350 crank at 12.9 vs 370 at 12.2 to put things into the 12's not the 14's. If you go to 20% dl the hp is even closer on the two.

mike-2ptzero
07-07-2007, 09:35 PM
The answer your looking for is "Gearing".


A4 has Torsen AWD and the GSX has Haldex, haldex has less driveline loss.

ibew5audi
07-07-2007, 09:51 PM
The a4 is discouraging bang for the buck in comparison. I might be going back to the dsm's with the next one.

sean1.8t
07-07-2007, 10:56 PM
i'll keep my A4. dsm's are fast, but peices of shit. the old ones(1st and 2nd gen eclipses fall apart). and the Evo's driveability is horrible. i like having a challenge. and a mix between luxury, sport, and practicality that my car has. i don't think any other car company can really deliver that to us. for this type of money anyways

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 11:00 PM
I followed what you're getting at but I'm talking .3 of a second in comparison to over 60 hp. not quite down at that magical 12.0 brick wall that seems to cost so much money to break. Again-bad ex but my buddies evo has around 370 crank and is running 12.2s-only slightly lighter than an a4. Quick calculations show 300whp w/15% dll to be about 350 crank at 12.9 vs 370 at 12.2 to put things into the 12's not the 14's. If you go to 20% dl the hp is even closer on the two.

when i said 12's i did not mean 12 flat or 12.0.. i meant high to mid 12's 370 crank hp will not give you 300awhp.. most likely 285awhp.. stg III s4 that have more.. way more power then that evo, do a 12.2.. in the 1/4 mile

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 11:01 PM
The a4 is discouraging bang for the buck in comparison. I might be going back to the dsm's with the next one.

i think we got our selves .. a promoter/.....[rolleyes]

BranCKY3
07-07-2007, 11:08 PM
I ran a 12.6 with my 71r elim, stock S4 muffler and terrible ATP inlet holding me back. Once I get a dump, neuspeed inlet, and launch control watch out! [:p]

Tiluleshpingen
07-07-2007, 11:12 PM
I ran a 12.6 with my 71r elim, stock S4 muffler and terrible ATP inlet holding me back. Once I get a dump, neuspeed inlet, and launch control watch out! [:p]

thank you bro for chimming in .. i was waiting for you[:D]

Devious27t
07-08-2007, 12:00 AM
I ran a 12.6 with my 71r elim, stock S4 muffler and terrible ATP inlet holding me back. Once I get a dump, neuspeed inlet, and launch control watch out! [:p]

you can do that with "free mods" TBE and a boost controller on a 4G. [:o]*sigh*

Tiluleshpingen
07-08-2007, 12:36 AM
you can do that with "free mods" TBE and a boost controller on a 4G. [:o]*sigh*

i wonder why!!![:o].. oh cuz they come stock with much bigger turbo then k03 and thier 2.0 16v .,.. but they still suck.. and i dont think they go at 12.6 but more like 13 flat and that alittle overrated ..., audi is audi not a DSM anyone could slap to a 4cyl a huge turbo.. but would it be worth it, lets see which sold more units that DSM or the b5 A4?

ibew5audi
07-08-2007, 09:16 AM
when i said 12's i did not mean 12 flat or 12.0.. i meant high to mid 12's 370 crank hp will not give you 300awhp.. most likely 285awhp.. stg III s4 that have more.. way more power then that evo, do a 12.2.. in the 1/4 mile

You are making my point for me. If the evo has 370hp at the crank and can run a 12.2 with what you say is only 285awhp and an s4 with "way more power then that evo" that only runs a 12.2, then audis take a lot more power to run the same times.
I like a challenge too but when the manufacturer makes it so damn difficult to modify their product with the software crap vs the adaptability of the dsm setup with bolt on mods (bigger turbo) it discourages me. To spend $800 on stupid software to bolt a bigger turbo on to run an insane 23 lbs of boost for a 12.9 on a 2871r elim is a shame. Promoter? I have driven my audi at least 4 times more than you have. I also had 1st and 2nd gen awd turbo manual dsm's with act clutches and little 16g turbos that had way less than 300awhp that would put to shame audis in the same realm. I love my b5 enough to keep it with 203,000 miles on it and want to bring it up to modern day power. The 12.6 is getting closer to what I'd like to be running on pump. I'll be paid off in two months and am getting ready to chase the evo down through the 12's. I'd like to do an eliminator but it sounds like I will need to go bigger. I'd also like to stay 1.8l but if I have to go 2.0 then so be it. Dsm tranny's fall apart for sure. The bodies rust out. The 4g63 on the other hand takes a hell of a beating. I sold mine at 98,000mi and could munch 6spd vettes for breakfast and beat supercharged crustangs halfway down the track with a catalytic converter on 93 octane gas. Just a lot harder with an audi I guess.[headbang]

mike-2ptzero
07-08-2007, 12:01 PM
You are making my point for me. If the evo has 370hp at the crank and can run a 12.2 with what you say is only 285awhp and an s4 with "way more power then that evo" that only runs a 12.2, then audis take a lot more power to run the same times.
I like a challenge too but when the manufacturer makes it so damn difficult to modify their product with the software crap vs the adaptability of the dsm setup with bolt on mods (bigger turbo) it discourages me. To spend $800 on stupid software to bolt a bigger turbo on to run an insane 23 lbs of boost for a 12.9 on a 2871r elim is a shame. Promoter? I have driven my audi at least 4 times more than you have. I also had 1st and 2nd gen awd turbo manual dsm's with act clutches and little 16g turbos that had way less than 300awhp that would put to shame audis in the same realm. I love my b5 enough to keep it with 203,000 miles on it and want to bring it up to modern day power. The 12.6 is getting closer to what I'd like to be running on pump. I'll be paid off in two months and am getting ready to chase the evo down through the 12's. I'd like to do an eliminator but it sounds like I will need to go bigger. I'd also like to stay 1.8l but if I have to go 2.0 then so be it. Dsm tranny's fall apart for sure. The bodies rust out. The 4g63 on the other hand takes a hell of a beating. I sold mine at 98,000mi and could munch 6spd vettes for breakfast and beat supercharged crustangs halfway down the track with a catalytic converter on 93 octane gas. Just a lot harder with an audi I guess.[headbang]

Man this is some funny shit. Sorry you dont like the way the Audi tuning works, but then it isn't some tin box from japan.

Oh the 6 bolt can take a beating the 7bolt in the 2g sucks even at stock power(yes I owned 1 for 11 years).

Funny thing is that my friend has a 590whp Evo8(stroker 2.3 liter with a GT35r) and my 134 mph trap speeds with my 2 liter A4 are much higher then his.

maxspeed
07-08-2007, 12:27 PM
I ran a 12.6 with my 71r elim, stock S4 muffler and terrible ATP inlet holding me back. Once I get a dump, neuspeed inlet, and launch control watch out! [:p]

launch control/anti-lag is murder on cars, i hope you got one hell of a built motor

mike-2ptzero
07-08-2007, 01:10 PM
launch control/anti-lag is murder on cars, i hope you got one hell of a built motor

Its actually hard on the parts after the motor. Things like the exhaust manifold, turbo, WG, exhaust pipes and wide band 02 sensors. This is because the EGT's rise quickly as the fuel burns as it passes those parts.

Rosati
07-08-2007, 01:24 PM
What does it matter when DSM trannies dont last for shit?

Even the non Gsx trans are notorious for going



Why are we comparing these cars man......? Just let it go, Buy a nice BT Kit and leave them behind once you are fine tuned because once we are fine tuned, we leave everything else behind us.

With Rods, forget it man..... The only thing holding us back from those big numbers are our rods.

Tiluleshpingen
07-08-2007, 06:40 PM
You are making my point for me. If the evo has 370hp at the crank and can run a 12.2 with what you say is only 285awhp and an s4 with "way more power then that evo" that only runs a 12.2, then audis take a lot more power to run the same times.
I like a challenge too but when the manufacturer makes it so damn difficult to modify their product with the software crap vs the adaptability of the dsm setup with bolt on mods (bigger turbo) it discourages me. To spend $800 on stupid software to bolt a bigger turbo on to run an insane 23 lbs of boost for a 12.9 on a 2871r elim is a shame. Promoter? I have driven my audi at least 4 times more than you have. I also had 1st and 2nd gen awd turbo manual dsm's with act clutches and little 16g turbos that had way less than 300awhp that would put to shame audis in the same realm. I love my b5 enough to keep it with 203,000 miles on it and want to bring it up to modern day power. The 12.6 is getting closer to what I'd like to be running on pump. I'll be paid off in two months and am getting ready to chase the evo down through the 12's. I'd like to do an eliminator but it sounds like I will need to go bigger. I'd also like to stay 1.8l but if I have to go 2.0 then so be it. Dsm tranny's fall apart for sure. The bodies rust out. The 4g63 on the other hand takes a hell of a beating. I sold mine at 98,000mi and could munch 6spd vettes for breakfast and beat supercharged crustangs halfway down the track with a catalytic converter on 93 octane gas. Just a lot harder with an audi I guess.[headbang]

YOU ALSO DIDN'T GET THE REAL POINT.. THER IS NOT WAY THAT EVO IS RUNNING 12.2 WITH 370 CRANK HP

ibew5audi
07-08-2007, 08:13 PM
Sorry giac, didn't see you make that point. This thread wasn't meant to bash audi's as much as have a discussion about the disparity between audi bt hp not equating to dsm's w/similar hp #'s qm times. Rosati, I follow a lot of your posts and you have a pretty level head. The comment I made about the tuning hits home w/you. If you didn't need that bs epl tune in the first place(like the tin cans don't for a turbo upgrade), you'd have been at the track months ago hammering people. I'll let the dsm's go when I'm beating them (sooner than later). It seems you need at least 50+ hp in an a4 to achieve drag times of similar powered awd cars. Respect to the audi community guys. I'm good on this one.

Devious27t
07-09-2007, 09:54 AM
i wonder why!!![:o].. oh cuz they come stock with much bigger turbo then k03 and thier 2.0 16v .,.. but they still suck.. and i dont think they go at 12.6 but more like 13 flat and that alittle overrated ..., audi is audi not a DSM anyone could slap to a 4cyl a huge turbo.. but would it be worth it, lets see which sold more units that DSM or the b5 A4?

The fastest I have seen personally was a 12.5 (was at carlsbad raceway R.I.P.) though the car did have an ACT 6 puck. I really like eclipses and would get one in a heartbeat if I were looking to go faster than my S4 can go (without reason for money [:D])

Devious27t
07-09-2007, 09:57 AM
What does it matter when DSM trannies dont last for shit?

Even the non Gsx trans are notorious for going



Why are we comparing these cars man......? Just let it go, Buy a nice BT Kit and leave them behind once you are fine tuned because once we are fine tuned, we leave everything else behind us.

With Rods, forget it man..... The only thing holding us back from those big numbers are our rods.

did three trannies on the one we built [:D] shredded every tooth off of first gear and all but 3 off of the final drive [wrench]

Rosati
07-09-2007, 12:51 PM
did three trannies on the one we built [:D] shredded every tooth off of first gear and all but 3 off of the final drive [wrench]

Exactly [:p]


Sorry giac, didn't see you make that point. This thread wasn't meant to bash audi's as much as have a discussion about the disparity between audi bt hp not equating to dsm's w/similar hp #'s qm times. Rosati, I follow a lot of your posts and you have a pretty level head. The comment I made about the tuning hits home w/you. If you didn't need that bs epl tune in the first place(like the tin cans don't for a turbo upgrade), you'd have been at the track months ago hammering people. I'll let the dsm's go when I'm beating them (sooner than later). It seems you need at least 50+ hp in an a4 to achieve drag times of similar powered awd cars. Respect to the audi community guys. I'm good on this one.

Your absolutely right, and thanks, but- instances like these are exactly why we have to respect our Audis, and at the same time we have to respect the dsm's.

Dsm's are engineered for simplicity and are quick (not to mention lighter and 2 doors less, w/ a 2.0) - Audis are known for precision tuning and once those values in the tune are correct- - we are out. Yes, i wish i could just go romp on people at the track and wish i could have avoided all that bullshit and a $800 Tune.....

But it comes w/ the territory man and the "prestige" or false prestige of having a fast luxury car. Can they say the same? No . So there we go man.

I am a car enthusiast, i am not shallow , i grew up around and know about a lot of different cars and you must respect each one for what they are and can be, but its always good to see some of us audi guys actually give credit to another group.


On the track, its a diff story

[up]

victorvu
07-09-2007, 01:07 PM
HEY NoFlyZONE WAS THAT YOUR MIRAGE AT EIP ON THE DYNO A COUPLE OF MONTHS BACK?

NoFlyZone
07-09-2007, 01:28 PM
Not I victorvu. My Mirage Turbo sit's in my garage waiting for a 16G turbo, injectors and the 2G manifold which I already have. I'm giving this car (my baby) to my 19 YO son. I know I know, goodbye Mirage Turbo. 19YO + 300HP = what guys? Maybe I'm just getting old....

Nor_Cal_Driver
07-11-2007, 09:00 PM
That's a lot of fun for a 19yo. Take him to a driving school.

pipe7284
07-11-2007, 09:25 PM
^^^yeah you should. he needs to respect 300+ hp for being his first car.

NoFlyZone
07-12-2007, 08:11 AM
Can't argue with that. Thinking of getting a used Honda Civic or Toyota for him. He'll either break the car or break himself. This on top of the maintenance issues. Mirage Turbos love to be pampered, oil changes, cool downs, slow warm ups. You can get 200K miles out of a turbo, or 2K miles!!

pipe7284
07-12-2007, 08:21 AM
get him something he can experience first with. the mirage turbo is too much of a car for him. like my parents said to me:
"you first have to crawl and then walk"
i started with a 95 vw golf. i in one year it was driven to the ground. i experianced alot with it and learned that you really need to take care of your car and maintain it.
If my first car would have been the A4 i have right now.....ooohh my damn, my parents would be so pissed off if i would have driven it to the ground back then.

specially when you put alot of time and $$$$$ into that mirage.

sickguy
07-12-2007, 09:01 AM
After owning a 2G DSM and a B5, I must say the DSM is easier and cheaper to make fast. I had Big 16G EVO III turbo, turbo back exhaust, big sidemount intercooler, ACT 2100 clutch, etc... and it beated a 350Z easily on the highway (during my stupid year), it should be making +300hp but I didn't have a chance to dyno it. I did most of the installs myself with instructions from forums, and I never worked on cars before that.

And I used a Zeitronix wideband, pocketlogger, and Apex AFC to self tune. I think it only costs me $2500 on parts, some were used parts. And I find it pretty reliable too.

But of course driving an Audi is a different experience. DSMs can give you the ricer impression if it's not done right (my dsm was a sleeper though, I like it that way). And an Audi is much nicer and luxurious than a DSM. So if you just want to go fast with less money, get a DSM, otherwise get an Audi, it's a luxury car nonetheless.

Jeff
07-12-2007, 09:13 AM
What does it matter when DSM trannies dont last for shit?

Even the non Gsx trans are notorious for going



Why are we comparing these cars man......? Just let it go, Buy a nice BT Kit and leave them behind once you are fine tuned because once we are fine tuned, we leave everything else behind us.

With Rods, forget it man..... The only thing holding us back from those big numbers are our rods.

Calling the DSM tranny a "piece of shit" is an understatement. [;)]

Jeff
07-12-2007, 09:19 AM
These are all over the 4G63.com and dsmtuners.com... but here's some of my favorites:

"DSM - Making ASE-Certified Mechanics out of ordinary people since 1989"

"DSM - Another way to spend your weekend."

"DSM = Divorce Surpasses Marriage"

"DSM (Car) = $1000
New Tranny = $2500
New Motor Rebuild After broken Timing Belt/Balance Shaft = $2000
Tank Of Race Gas = $80
FMIC = $50 (eBay)
FMIC Plumbing = $20 from Home Depot
Boost Control = $10 from Home Depot
Wiping the smirk off the 9 sec vette owner's face = Priceless
....for everything else, there's Home Depot"

I own both cars (just sold the DSM), all I can say is a stock DSM (1G) with basic and free mods on a EIII 16G will produce 300whp+ easily on pump gas. Just don't expect it to idle as smoothly as an Audi, nor not fall apart.

My sig on AG if anybody can find the humor: [:D]

http://www.audigeeks.com/images/jeff/dsmaudi.jpg

Trv06kviper
07-12-2007, 10:55 AM
My gf has a 92 GS-T and I used to have a stage 3 3kgt VR4 (498 AWHP @ the wheels) I have an Audi now. It's very hard to compare the two because they were designed with different things in mind. The 4g63 and the 6g72 both the Audi 1.8T and 2.8 N/A. If you want an easy tuner of course go with the DSM that's a no brainer. However, looking at the whole picture or package you can have extremely high horsepower but to be able to ultilize it all is the key. My point I guess is you don't need ho-po to be fast. It's all about how it's used.

ibew5audi
07-12-2007, 07:37 PM
Like Rosati said respect to both. To be fair to audi-stock tranny w/204kmi and only 1 timing belt change, stock-starter, alternator, everything but ds front axle, bearings out the ass, cool. temp sens, and 3rd clutch (counting orig.).
On the mitsu end-tranny went in the 2g @ 60-70k (synchros-had to go from 2nd to 5th but covered under warranty). On the 1g-always ground into 2nd when cold. Sold it to my brother who sold it to a kid who always wanted one. He learned the hard way that the trannies suck and got it stuck in gear. Sold it to a kid who knew dsms for a $1000 (modded with 16g(38mm wg), act 2100, buschur ex., upper int pipe, etc. Guy yanked out of gear and drove it home. Audi ftw on reliability not ease of tuneability. Liked the sig first time I saw it, Jeff.
Off subject but on subject-at least mitsu was sticking to wrc and I had someone to cheer on (tommy mak. days). I wish Audi would get back into it (not Skoda).